#CharlestonShooting

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Of course, the Sons of Confederacy will probably take the flag, buy some land next to the capital, call it a museum and put the flag up on a flag pole and have a plaque that reads, "This was the flag we took off the lawn, 40 feet over yonder."

Hehehe. Yeah, I don't know the land ownership in downtown Columbia, but I could totally see something like that happening.

It appears that Haley has made some phone calls to get her ducks in a row. Like Haley, Tom Davis (R-Beaufort), isn't exactly a Romney type. This was posted on his FB page just over an hour ago, right around the time the presser was announced:

Originally Posted by SC State Senator Tom Davis FB Page

The Charleston murders have brought a festering issue back to the surface, and it simply can’t be ignored. Regardless of who’s right from a historical standpoint, it is indisputable that the Confederate battle flag now flying on the State House grounds has been misappropriated by hate groups as a symbol of their hatred, and while I respect the views of those who proudly view this flag as a symbol of their heritage, we must find another way to honor that heritage. This isn’t about re-opening an old wound; it’s about mending one that never properly healed.

https://www.facebook.com/TomDavisSC

[Butter]

Surprised that Tim Scott has not gone on the record one way or the other by this point.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Of course, the Sons of Confederacy will probably take the flag, buy some land next to the capital, call it a museum and put the flag up on a flag pole and have a plaque that reads, "This was the flag we took off the lawn, 40 feet over yonder."

But that's a much different thing than having it flown by the government.

[bob]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

The Union attacked the CSA on Southern soil after the South seceeded by legal means.

I'll admit I'm not a Constitutional scholar here... is it actually possible for a state to legally secede from the Union today? Was it possible back then?

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Hmm, it's interesting to me to see slavery both dismissed as a reason for the Civil War and put forth as the only/primary reason for the Civil War.

Any Civil War historian will tell you that there were a large number of factors that led to the Civil War, slavery being one, but also cultural identity, industrial versus agrarian economics, and the beliefs of different individuals on the values of state rights versus the country's.

Then why do the secession commissioners speak primarily of slavery and white supremacy? The states rights argument(at least as it applied to things not related to slavery) was largely built towards the end and after the Civil War as a way to sanitize the real issue.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

Surprised that Tim Scott has not gone on the record one way or the other by this point.

Y'know, I've seen several things in the media about this presidential candidate declining to comment, another saying "it's up to SC", and another saying "take it down." But I haven't seen anything indicating that he's even been asked by the press so far. Big oversight if they haven't.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

But that's a much different thing than having it flown by the government.

Sure, for you in "Internet Land" its fucking awesome. But for people that will have to see it everyday with its only meaning, it will suck more

[cartman]

Originally Posted by bob

I'll admit I'm not a Constitutional scholar here... is it actually possible for a state to legally secede from the Union today? Was it possible back then?

In Texas v. White, the Supreme Court ruled that unilateral secession was unconstitutional. The issue was related to war bonds sold by the state during the Civil War. The SC ruled that the secession wasn't legal, so the bonds were null and void.

Texas v. White - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Sure, for you in "Internet Land" its fucking awesome. But for people that will have to see it everyday with its only meaning, it will suck more

So you'd prefer it stay at the capital? I don't think anyone should fly it, but I wouldn't make it illegal. I do, though, think the government shouldn't use it as an official symbol. I'm not sure why that leads to your dismissive tone.

[Ben E Lou]

Good gracious. Regardless of what you might think of her politics, this is looking like she is pulling this one off masterfully. About 20 minutes ago, this happened.

Bipartisan group of Charleston-area politicians calls for lowering of Confederate flag - Post and Courier

(Yes, that's the freaking WHITE REPUBLICAN MAYOR OF NORTH CHARLESTON SPEAKING IN COHORTS WITH THE NAACP.)

I'm starting to wonder what SC's laws around Executive Orders are. By law, it can't come down until the legislature meets again. but with all this bipartisan stuff happening on the first day of the week, just minutes after she announces the presser, it's starting to seem orchestrated.

[ISiddiqui]

re: Civil War Historians, I would also argue that the vast majority of Civil War historians will tell you that while there were a number of factors, slavery was by far the main factor and was usually the reason that was held up by secessionists during that time.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Sure, for you in "Internet Land" its fucking awesome. But for people that will have to see it everyday with its only meaning, it will suck more

I would rather my government not fly the flag. It gives it an importance it doesn't deserve. Someone wants to fly it on private property? More power to them.

[EagleFan]

Would be good to see that bloody awful rag come down. Maybe it can be fashioned into toilet paper.

The "part of our history" argument is just a way to hide the hidden meaning "we have to show them n****** where we stand."

It's like the Nazi flag in Germany. Any right minded person doesn't want anything to do with it. Those that do, their reasons are obvious.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

re: Civil War Historians, I would also argue that the vast majority of Civil War historians will tell you that while there were a number of factors, slavery was by far the main factor and was usually the reason that was held up by secessionists during that time.

I would love to hear from them or see a poll of them, then, because I have read any number of papers/articles/books on it in the past 20 years, and they all seemed to argue that the reasons were numerous, and the primary driver was actually economics, with slavery being associated with that (of course, since slavery was a key part of the southern economy), and slavery itself also being a reason. I'm not trying to say slavery wasn't a primary issue; I just have not seen that it was the primary issue.

[Chief Rum]

FTR, slavery also plays into the states rights things, no matter when it was built up (don't know about timelines on stuff like that). So chicken or the egg situation?

[ISiddiqui]

States Rights was a big deal... unless it involved bringing slaves into free states... hello Dred Scott decision

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

I would rather my government not fly the flag. It gives it an importance it doesn't deserve. Someone wants to fly it on private property? More power to them.

If the choice is a small flag based on the history of all things Dixie or a big ass flag flown by white supremacists...I think it should at least be considered.

But, if it makes 67% of the population happy, I wont have a problem with it. Just remember the possibilities. All governmental action has reaction...some have long term negative effects that weren't considered.

I'm hoping that this massacre has a unifying effect and this goes without a hitch, though.

[Abe Sargent]

Very few sociological things which happen across the board can be simplified into a single rubric, like "2+2=4"

I'll give you an example:

Why are students from Detroit Public High Schools have low tests, scores, low grades, a low chance to graduate, lower chance to get into college even among graduates, and so forth?

Well, you can't just say, well, it's poverty, or well, its race, or well it's unions taking too much money, or well, there are a lot of reasons.

For example, Detroit School students test much higher for lead poisoning than the average student in America. One of the impacts of high lead and poisoning is lowered mental acuity. To what degree does the high lead lead to the conditions in schools?

There are numberless factors that are involved in the social dynamic of students in Public High Schools in Detroit.



Now if that's teh case for a small time line, in one city, in America, then how much more is that teh case for a major event, across many states and places, like teh Civil War?

From Jefferson Davis Inaugural Address to commentry on a varierty of other issues, we have many diffferent reasons this war happened. Slavery was absolutely a part of it. It was never the whole thing anymore than Poverty = Educational Issues in Detroit. It can;t tell the whole story. From States' Rights and Economic Issues to Religious and Cultural Ones, there were many knobs and dials that were twisted just right to lead us down the path to the Civil War.

[RainMaker]

I never understood today's attachment to the flag. Your state got smoked in the Civil War and you're proud of that?

At the same time, I think it's sad that this tragedy is becoming about a flag. So much deeper and so many factors at play and it's being dumbed down to a flag.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

Surprised that Tim Scott has not gone on the record one way or the other by this point.

Sources are now saying Tim Scott is in. It's not clear if he will be at the Haley presser. Other sources have Graham at the press conference.

[Grover]

NFL's Benjamin Watson: Remove The Confederate Flag For The Right Reasons

[Ben E Lou]

Scott is there. A fair number of the folks who spoke in Charleston earlier today are also there.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I never understood today's attachment to the flag. Your state got smoked in the Civil War and you're proud of that?

At the same time, I think it's sad that this tragedy is becoming about a flag. So much deeper and so many factors at play and it's being dumbed down to a flag.

I think you nailed it. "Why should I care, I won, YOU lost, I demand YOU take down YOUR stupid flag".

Just doesn't resonate well with EVERYBODY, particularly those who lost family, but also the nut jobs. Its not all about slavery at that point. Just sayin.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Scott is there. A fair number of the folks who spoke in Charleston earlier today are also there.

No one spoke other than Haley, and she was not ambiguous in any way about the flag. she said it was time to take it down and that if they don't do it in this session (which I think ends this week), she will use her authority to force them to reconvene.

[Butter]

Good for her for taking a stand instead of what we heard from most of the GOP Presidential candidates.

[Ben E Lou]

Video of full statement (around 13 minutes of her speaking) is here: Haley: 'It's time to move the flag from the Capitol grounds' - WCIV-TV | ABC News 4 - Charleston News, Sports, Weather

The "money" section: South Carolina Governor Nikki Haley Calls for Confederate Flag to Come Down - ABC News (about 90 seconds)

[CU Tiger]

I like it.
Cant help but wonder whether it is a politically charged move, or more genuine but I'll take it either way.

Frankly if it will bring any additional unity to us its a small token. I can respect that.


Shocked at the political savvy the Nikki displayed here though. Good for her.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

At the same time, I think it's sad that this tragedy is becoming about a flag. So much deeper and so many factors at play and it's being dumbed down to a flag.

+ fucking 1

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

Good for her for taking a stand instead of what we heard from most of the GOP Presidential candidates.

What did Jeb Bush say?

[nol]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

+ fucking 1

I can get that sentiment, but 1) it's certainly better than just ignoring it and 2) I can't think of too much else that could be accomplished in a week's time (at least nothing we'd be able to immediately determine).

[ISiddiqui]

Yeah, it's a decent step in the right direction. Acknowledging the symbols matter is pretty good.

[stevew]

I guess I at least understood the place the flag it has in the south. But if you're flying it in northern Ohio or Western PA you're a clueless asshole at best and may just be a racist asshole.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by nol

I can get that sentiment, but 1) it's certainly better than just ignoring it and 2) I can't think of too much else that could be accomplished in a week's time (at least nothing we'd be able to immediately determine).

Unfortunately, it could also mean we need more massacres like the Charleston shooting to get us to move on these types of issues.

[JPhillips]

What issues? What would you like to see happen?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I think you nailed it. "Why should I care, I won, YOU lost, I demand YOU take down YOUR stupid flag".

Just doesn't resonate well with EVERYBODY, particularly those who lost family, but also the nut jobs. Its not all about slavery at that point. Just sayin.

I just don't see where the pride in it is. They started a war over slavery (if you read the reasons South Carolina had at the time they clearly state it was over slavery) and then proceeded to get their asses kicked. I'm not saying other states should demand it, just saying that if I was in South Carolina, I'd be pretty embarrassed in it.

Do they hang banners in that state when their teams finish in last place too?

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

What issues? What would you like to see happen?

Any issue like this. The Confederate Flag on top of state capitals is not a new discussion. This has been discussed for most of the 42+ years I have been alive. This discussion could have happened last Monday and I seriously doubt this would be the outcome. Sure, if the final result is the flag coming down, that is great as far as I am concerned. But if this was the proper thing to do today, it was the proper thing to do before nine innocent people killed. IMO it is sad that history will show that the Charleston shooting was the catalyst to the flag coming down as opposed to the citizens of the state saying that the flag does not represent their state government.

[nol]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Unfortunately, it could also mean we need more massacres like the Charleston shooting to get us to move on these types of issues.

There were enough similar massacres in the past that were met with little to no response that I feel fine with giving South Carolina very, very partial credit for at least broaching the topic.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Any issue like this. The Confederate Flag on top of state capitals is not a new discussion. This has been discussed for most of the 42+ years I have been alive. This discussion could have happened last Monday and I seriously doubt this would be the outcome. Sure, if the final result is the flag coming down, that is great as far as I am concerned. But if this was the proper thing to do today, it was the proper thing to do before nine innocent people killed. IMO it is sad that history will show that the Charleston shooting was the catalyst to the flag coming down as opposed to the citizens of the state saying that the flag does not represent their state government.

This is basically my sentiment as well.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I just don't see where the pride in it is. They started a war over slavery (if you read the reasons South Carolina had at the time they clearly state it was over slavery) and then proceeded to get their asses kicked. I'm not saying other states should demand it, just saying that if I was in South Carolina, I'd be pretty embarrassed in it.

Do they hang banners in that state when their teams finish in last place too?

Did we take down the American flag after Canada beat the ever living shit out of us in the War of 1812?

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Did we take down the American flag after Canada beat the ever living shit out of us in the War of 1812?

But we still existed after the loss. The Confederacy ceased to exist after getting its ass kicked.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Any issue like this. The Confederate Flag on top of state capitals is not a new discussion. This has been discussed for most of the 42+ years I have been alive. This discussion could have happened last Monday and I seriously doubt this would be the outcome. Sure, if the final result is the flag coming down, that is great as far as I am concerned. But if this was the proper thing to do today, it was the proper thing to do before nine innocent people killed. IMO it is sad that history will show that the Charleston shooting was the catalyst to the flag coming down as opposed to the citizens of the state saying that the flag does not represent their state government.

I'd agree with that, but it seems like it's human nature to require major incidents to spur change. That's so much a part of us that I'm not going to criticize a good act because of timing.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Did we take down the American flag after Canada beat the ever living shit out of us in the War of 1812?

America survived and it's what all of us are a part of.

The Confederacy not only lost and ceased to exist, but it's a battle flag they used to attack America. I'd find it weird if Hawaii took pride in the Japanese Imperial Flag. Or New York took pride in the black flag of Jihad. Heck, I know for a fact it pisses off Texans when the flag of Mexico is flown higher than their own or the US flag.

[BillJasper]

South Carolina has not always flown the flag. The state’s first modern hoisting of the standard came in 1961, as part of official commemorations of the centennial anniversary of the beginning of the Civil War. As K. Michael Prince notes in his book about the relationship between the state and the flag, Rally ’round the Flag, Boys!, the celebrations kicked off in Charleston, where the fighting had begun 100 years earlier. The flag’s place at the Capitol was officially confirmed by the state legislature the following year.

Still many historians say the appearance of the flag likely had a more nefarious purpose: to symbolize Southern defiance in the face of a burgeoning Civil Rights Movement. The move was, TIME later noted, “a states’-rights rebuff to desegregation.”

“The Confederate flag symbolizes more than the civil war and the slavery era,” wrote James Forman Jr. a professor at Yale Law School, in a law journal article about the flag’s history at state capitols. “The flag has been adopted knowingly and consciously by government officials seeking to assert their commitment to black subordination.”

Interesting article.

Confederate Flag in South Carolina: The History of How It Got There

[bhlloy]

Hopefully this little scroat is well aware of the coming together and the discussions and progress that has been made as a result of his act and is continued to be reminded of that every second of the rest of his worthless life.

[bob]

Walmart to stop selling products with the confederate flag

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Heck, I know for a fact it pisses off Texans when the flag of Mexico is flown higher than their own or the US flag.

It actually has upset me when I would see that in Los Angeles
. Which is why I'm good with removing the Confederate flag, I understand how it feels.

[BillJasper]

It's just a shame nine people had to be brutally murdered for us to grow up just a little bit.

But then there's the cynic in me that thinks this is essentially them trying to take the focus off the guns that are freely available to commit these kinds of crimes.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Dutch

It actually has upset me when I would see that in Los Angeles
. Which is why I'm good with removing the Confederate flag, I understand how it feels.

Does it bother you to see Irish and Italian flags? My neighborhood in NY has multiples of both and it's never mattered to me.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

It's just a shame nine people had to be brutally murdered for us to grow up just a little bit.

But then there's the cynic in me that thinks this is essentially them trying to take the focus off the guns that are freely available to commit these kinds of crimes.

You don't need to drag the entire nation with you, states and cities can ban guns or make them really hard to have. I'd start with Chicago...guns should probably be banned from that city.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Does it bother you to see Irish and Italian flags? My neighborhood in NY has multiples of both and it's never mattered to me.

It doesn't.

EDIT: Ah, looks like you didn't read enough. Rainmaker said when the Mexican Flag was purposely flown higher than the US flag. As in...on the same flag pole or in the same arrangement...as is my experiences in LA.