Education Reform........

[cougarfreak]

I have been an educator of high school students for 11 years, and have coached varsity level in two different sports since 1991 (not both at the same time, only crossed over for 2 years). My question to you is, what would you do to improve the American Public Education system.

[JPhillips]

Smaller schools.

[Greyroofoo]

Hot girls walk around topless.

I promise this will improve attendance (at least among the male students)

[Noop]

Put the best teachers in elementry school. So that these kids have a good foundation.

[Bubba Wheels]

Privatize it. Use government subsidies and private schools. Diversify and inject competition. The good will get better and the worst will dissappear.

[rowech]

Eliminate the use of calculators

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Privatize it. Use government subsidies and private schools. Diversify and inject competition. The good will get better and the worst will dissappear.

You mean you want a church run school or something? Because if everyone went to private school then it would be like a public school socially speaking. I must admit I am a but uninformed about private schools.

[mauchow]

go to the metric system

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Privatize it. Use government subsidies and private schools. Diversify and inject competition. The good will get better and the worst will dissappear.

Holy crap, I agree with BW for the second time in as many weeks.

[Raiders Army]

1. Make parents responsible for bringing up their children.
2. Make teachers responsible for teaching children.

This isn't a slam on teachers; it's on the parents who are too "busy" to bring up their children. I'm not talking about the whole Pledge of Allegiance thing. I'm talking about parents who want the schools to be responsible for the conduct and study habits of their children. Although schools are responsible for the conduct of the students while they're at school, parents need to take some responsibilty in the actions those children take.

For instance, why are there metal detectors in schools? I blame the parents of a student who kills someone rather than the school itself. The parents failed parenting, yet it is inevitable that the school will be blamed. My two cents.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

1. Make parents responsible for bringing up their children.
2. Make teachers responsible for teaching children.

This isn't a slam on teachers; it's on the parents who are too "busy" to bring up their children. I'm not talking about the whole Pledge of Allegiance thing. I'm talking about parents who want the schools to be responsible for the conduct and study habits of their children. Although schools are responsible for the conduct of the students while they're at school, parents need to take some responsibilty in the actions those children take.

For instance, why are there metal detectors in schools? I blame the parents of a student who kills someone rather than the school itself. The parents failed parenting, yet it is inevitable that the school will be blamed. My two cents.

Agree with this as well.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Noop

You mean you want a church run school or something? Because if everyone went to private school then it would be like a public school socially speaking. I must admit I am a but uninformed about private schools.

The idea is that schools and private education entities would compete for government contracts, with the goal being more efficient spending of education funding. The idea has always intrigued me.

[JPhillips]

Its sounds good, but in reality it will just be a giveaway to private schools. There aren't enough companies/non-profits for there to be any real competition in most of the country. Some will be good, but there will be a large number of mediocre to poor schools that are just in it for the money. Its like a lot of government privatization schemes, it sounds good, but in the end we don't save money and the results are the same.

That being said, I'm more than willing to try it on a small scale and see what happens. One of the biggest problems in education is the unwillingness to try solutions. Let's experiment and see if we can find better methods.

[Greyroofoo]

If we rely on parents, then I pity the kids who have poor parents.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Greyroofoo

If we rely on parents, then I pity the kids who have poor parents.

We need to make the parents suffer for their childrens poor behavior. Instead of a running to a doctor to give their kid some diagnois(sp?) saying they have some problem. They need to 'cowboy up' and disicpline(sp?) their child.

[Steveski]

The problem is as much a result of poor parenting as it is the school systems. I will however note that I was a very poor high school student for the most part. I did attend a Catholic high school and despite how poorly I did, when I got to college I never openned a book the first year and I busted the curve on every test for all the poor public school kids in class with me. I graduated with honors and went on to graduate school. I will not tell you how many D's I made in high school though. I really appreciate the education I got there once I was in college and I sent all my kids to private school.

[Greyroofoo]

Originally Posted by Noop

We need to make the parents suffer for their childrens poor behavior. Instead of a running to a doctor to give their kid some diagnois(sp?) saying they have some problem. They need to 'cowboy up' and disicpline(sp?) their child.

To me that sounds like we should make the children suffer so we can spite the parents.

Some parents won't take their responsiblities seriously and to that there are no easy answers.

[clintl]

The main predictors of student success are the socioeconomic status of the student's family, the education level of the parents, and parental involvement. There was a report out about a month ago or so that finally controlled for socioeconomic status when comparing public and private school students' test scores, and the public school students were actually doing a little better. So, if you want to improve public education, you need to focus on giving the poorer school districts the resources to overcome the disadvantages that come with being a child in a low socioeconomic status family, which are considerable. Almost all of the difference is related to socioeconomic factors.

I've gone back to school to get a teaching credential, and I'm doing my student teaching in a low socioeconomic status district, and it's appalling the lack of resources they have compared to other (still not "advantaged) districts I'm familiar with. For instance, the library has only seven pretty old computers for student use for a student body of 1200. They do have a separate computer lab, but those computers are generally only used by whole classes, and not available for individual student use. The library is pretty small. It has more science teachers than science classrooms, so teachers are sharing rooms, and at least doesn't have a room he can call his own.

And that's not even getting into the language issues - and I'm not talking about just Spanish. There are 18 different native languages spoken by students at this school, including a large Russian contingent (the community is something of a magnet for Russian religious refugees). Out of 27 students in the chemistry class I've taken over as a student teacher, 5 are Russians, and that's pretty consistent with the percentage of the student body as a whole. There are a fair number of Asians as well, from a diverse set of Asian countries. I guarantee you that few if any private schools have to deal with a student population as linguistically diverse.

Too many people are thinking about a mostly white middle class U.S. born student population when they talk about school reform and make assumptions about how schools are performing. But that is not the reality, and it's especially not reality for schools in socioeconomically-disadvantaged communities. And unless you address the issues that put students growing up in these kinds of environments at a disadvantage from the moment they are born, you will not come up with an effective reform package.

So the essential elements are: better teacher training, higher expectations for student performance, facilities and resources for disadvantaged districts that bring them up to the level of affluent districts, and after school programs to mitigate the effects of limited home resources for low socioeconomic students.

[molson]

Originally Posted by rowech

3. Begin to look at the real purpose of high schools. Should there be separate high schools depending on level of student achievement? Based upon future plans? Based upon testing? Should all students be required to learn certain material at the high school level or only those that are college bound? What should be our real purpose for secondary education?

Great point. Unfortunately, I think we're heading in the opposite direction now, with the idea that every kid can be college bound if we just give them the right combination of pills.

The traditional secondary education isn't for everyone. Some parents resist vocational schools, but 16-year old kid who gets a head-start as an electrician can make a VERY good living. Too many of them are wasting these years buying the cliff notes for English Class, doing just enough to graduate.

[clintl]

Originally Posted by rowech

2. Single gendered schools. This eliminates many of the distractions that create many problems in schools. In addition, research shows males and females learn in very different ways and studies show continually how much improvement there is when this idea is done.

The research is not that clear-cut. In addition, I firmly believe that girls and boys need to interact with each other throughout their developing years. School is as much about developing social skills as it is about academics, and so is adult life. They need to learn how to work together. It's the teachers' responsibity to make sure both genders have a suitable learning environment.

[WVUFAN]

Put the kind of money spent on the military to schools. Eliminate a bunch of ridiculous programs the government funds (like the NEA).

Eliminate teaching in languages other than English. The language barrier causes segregation in schools. Force all student to learn English and teach all classes in English.

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by WVUFAN

Put the kind of money spent on the military to schools. Eliminate a bunch of ridiculous programs the government funds (like the NEA).

Eliminate teaching in languages other than English. The language barrier causes segregation in schools. Force all student to learn English and teach all classes in English.

Your first point I don't agree with. Your second I do agree with. They have all-Spanish classes down here. It's somewhat ridiculous since they have to learn English at some point. I may be mistaken, but I believe the SAT and ACT are all in English, no?

[rowech]

Originally Posted by clintl

The research is not that clear-cut. In addition, I firmly believe that girls and boys need to interact with each other throughout their developing years. School is as much about developing social skills as it is about academics, and so is adult life. They need to learn how to work together. It's the teachers' responsibity to make sure both genders have a suitable learning environment.

You have them interact but not within the school setting. Whether it's still having boys and girls in the same school but single gendered classrooms or having a male and female school be tied together for sports, etc. It's not as big of a difference in elementary schools as it is in the middle and secondary grades but it's a nice gap based upon what I've read.

[Raiders Army]

FWIW, I think there are a lot of colleges out there with pretty low standards so every kid can be college bound easily. College is no longer a higher institution of learning; it's a cash cow.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

FWIW, I think there are a lot of colleges out there with pretty low standards so every kid can be college bound easily. College is no longer a higher institution of learning; it's a cash cow.

It is for year one anyway. College's will take anyone's money but how much money does one have to flush before they figure out they can't hack it at that level?

[14ers]

Originally Posted by WVUFAN

Put the kind of money spent on the military to schools. Eliminate a bunch of ridiculous programs the government funds (like the NEA).

What is wrong with the National Education Association?



http://www.nea.org/index.html
Could 3.2 million teachers be wrong?

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by rowech

It is for year one anyway. College's will take anyone's money but how much money does one have to flush before they figure out they can't hack it at that level?

Not to sidestep the question, but I'd have to look for numbers on college dropouts after the first year. I would also guess that a college gets more money from a freshman than a senior since the freshman stays in the dorm, eats the food, etc. more than a senior. In that aspect, if I were a college I would have low entrance standards to get the freshmen money and then have a harder program so that "unworthy" students drop out and you maintain your level of prestige among your undergraduates. That's what I would do to run my own business...er...college.

/threadjack

[WVUFAN]

Originally Posted by 14ers

What is wrong with the National Education Association?



http://www.nea.org/index.html
Could 3.2 million teachers be wrong?

Well, I was talking about the National Endowment of the Arts, but I'm not a fan of the teacher's union either. My mom was a teacher for over 30 years, and it didn't help her at all.

Then again, I'm generally against unions period. For their time they were invaluable, but now there's no use for them at all.

[clintl]

Originally Posted by WVUFAN

Eliminate teaching in languages other than English. The language barrier causes segregation in schools. Force all student to learn English and teach all classes in English.

Actually, I think it's harmful to deny them the opportunity for language arts instruction in their native language. Bilingualism is better. Yes, we want them to learn English, but we shouldn't want them to speak only English.

I think we should actually start teaching foreign language to English-speaking students in kindergarten, rather than waiting until they're in the 6th or 7th grade. That's when the human mind is most receptive to learning new languages.

[thealmighty]

Quick hits:

• start out right. every kid should be able to read by the end of first grade, to some extent, or they don't move on.
• make first period be breakfast. Too many kids get a shitty start every day because they are raising themselves. Get their day started off right and the rest of the day will be easier to handle.
• make elementary math and science teachers teach math and science. Most elementary ed. teachers know nothing about math or science from what I have seen and heard. Teach them how or get some that can.
• if you cannot read at the correct level at the end of a year...summer reading school is mandatory.
• get rid of lawyers. Too many things are done in a big district because of lawsuits or the possibility of same (unfortunately, this presupposes that administrators would actually be there for the betterment of all students, which isn't reality in many, many places)
• get rid of teacher unions. They are not there to better a students life but to prolong a shitty teachers' career, imho.
• fire idiots
• fire lazy teachers
• fire the rest of the stupid teachers
• get rid of idiot administrators, too
• ***bring back auto shop class, furniture repair, computer repair, AC repair, plumbing and other voc. ed. classes that were cut in budget reductions (at least where I am). If you have all these classes count towards a diploma, many, many more students would have a reason to be in school besides hanging in the halls, selling drugs or being a nuisance***
• deemphasize athletics (not going to happen in most places) and reemphasize academics as the raison d'etre of a school
• deal with the salary structure. Here, a starting teacher makes plenty, again imho, but they do nothing later. Why stay in teaching when you only make $5000 more after 10 years than when you started. If you do, in fact, get rid of the idiots, what you have left is worth what it costs to keep them
• More money for special ed programs. The money spent seems to be huge compared to yesterday, but it is now being used for special ed programs and salaries. We have aides all over the building being paid to follow ONE student around ALL DAY. That's right, one person/student, ALL DAY. Special needs children deserve an education, and inclusion is great, but a TON of the money now goes to special stuff because if it isn't done, parents will sue the district. Special ed students in the classroom. No problem. However, the feds or state need to pick up more of THAT tab so the taxes we pay goes to the classroom and not the lawyers.

I could go on, but quick hits went on to be too long already. Any questions? BTW, I am a high school teacher, 20 years. Also, I am in a union but only because the union has lawyers on staff that will represent a member if ever needed...for free. These days, you just never know. One pissed off parent and you are done from legal bills if the union isn't behind you. There is just too much crap in public schools now. It pisses me off just thinking about the incompetence I see and hear about every week.
(and I did not proofread this so if there are errors, fuck off. I teach math and psych, not english. )

[14ers]

Originally Posted by thealmighty

Quick hits:

• fire idiots
• fire lazy teachers
• fire the rest of the stupid teachers

Talk about a teacher shortage. Where do you stand on only hiring certified teachers?


I think your Salary for older teachers is wrong. Most School Districts not only pay their teachers by the numbers of years they have been there, but also have pay raises for their education level.(Bachelor, Masters, Specialist, and Doctorate)

[14ers]

Now for something completly different. Are teachers being overpaid?

http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blo...acher_sal.html

The Teacher Salary Myth

For example, per the NEA web site, teachers made a bit over $56,000 on average in California in 2004. Lisa Snell, in this month's Reason, estimates that benefits add nearly $16,000 to this compensation package, for a total of about $72,000 per year for California teachers. Normalize this for the fact they work 9 months (or less) a year, and you get them making an equivalent of $100,000 a year. Woe is me.

Wow, the average teacher in California is pulling down 6 figures a year.

[WVUFAN]

Originally Posted by 14ers

Now for something completly different. Are teachers being overpaid?

http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blo...acher_sal.html
Wow, the average teacher in California is pulling down 6 figures a year.

And they deserve EVERY SINGLE penny. I'd pay them more.

[WVUFAN]

Originally Posted by clintl

Actually, I think it's harmful to deny them the opportunity for language arts instruction in their native language. Bilingualism is better. Yes, we want them to learn English, but we shouldn't want them to speak only English.

The language classes are taught in should be English. It's a waste of resources to teach Mathematics in both Spanish and English. It establishes the idea that it's perfect ok to live in this country without knowing English.

Then again, I believe English should be declared the national language.

I think we should actually start teaching foreign language to English-speaking students in kindergarten, rather than waiting until they're in the 6th or 7th grade. That's when the human mind is most receptive to learning new languages.

I'm all for people being bi-lingual, but when you're talking about primary classes .. math, science, ect ... those should be in English and no other language.

[mgadfly]

Get rid of NCLB.

Strengthen Teachers' Unions. (I apparently am in the minority and believe that teachers actually care about their students and might have insights about how to help address whatever problems public schools are facing.)

Do not privatize at all. (Education is an investment in our future, not a for-profit business aimed at good quarterly returns. And I'm not sure why we'd want to pay a CEO ten times as much as we are currently paying an "administrator" to do the same work.)

Make college free to everyone who qualifies academically. (There are a great number of kids who will not have the financial capabilities of attending 4 years of college. With 40% of American jobs in the service sector, many kids are finding it difficult to see why they need to learn much of anything if the overwhelming odds have them flipping burgers, answering phones, etc... What possible application will most of the subjects they are refusing to take seriously have in their lives?)

[cougarfreak]

Originally Posted by 14ers

Now for something completly different. Are teachers being overpaid?

http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blo...acher_sal.html
Wow, the average teacher in California is pulling down 6 figures a year.

Yeah, pay them less. Their job isn't important at all.

[cougarfreak]

Originally Posted by thealmighty

Quick hits:[list][*]***bring back auto shop class, furniture repair, computer repair, AC repair, plumbing and other voc. ed. classes that were cut in budget reductions (at least where I am). If you have all these classes count towards a diploma, many, many more students would have a reason to be in school besides hanging in the halls, selling drugs or being a nuisance***[*]deemphasize athletics (not going to happen in most places) and reemphasize academics as the raison d'etre of a school

Two of the biggest IMO. I just quit coaching. I have never felt like in the classroom that my career was on the line everyday, as I do my job, and I feel I do it well. But when I was coaching it seemed like every single day my career could end. If a kid fielded a ball wrong and took it in the face, I could be sued for not teaching him to field the ball right, or if I didn't play this kid or that kid, someone was nicpicking or complaining trying to get me kicked out of coaching and/or teaching. Athletics need to go IMO, too much money is spent there, and not enough good coaches want to stay in it for reasons I stated IMO. Vocational schools would be a godsend for kids who just can't get it academically.

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by thealmighty

make first period be breakfast. Too many kids get a shitty start every day because they are raising themselves. Get their day started off right and the rest of the day will be easier to handle.

This is what I'm talking about when schools raise kids instead of parents.

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by 14ers

Now for something completly different. Are teachers being overpaid?

http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blo...acher_sal.html
Wow, the average teacher in California is pulling down 6 figures a year.

Your point is what? Put the blog into perspective.

The bottom line is that they work 9 months a year. They earn $72,000 per year teaching. That's it. Here's a newsflash: they don't get paid for those other three months they don't work. Did you realize that?

The other two huge holes in the argument are that:

1. It's California. Look at the cost of living there and compare it to say...El Paso, Texas. $100k in CA is like $40k per year here.

2. $72,000 for 9 months equates to $8k per month. For 12 months, it's $96k. From what I understand, $100,000 is six figures (albeit on the extremely low end of the scale, since the guy who makes $999,999 per year also makes six figures ). $96,000 per year...let me count the numbers...one...two...three...four...five...five..........five.....WTF???? That's only five figures per year! Couple that with hole #1 and teachers are underpaid in California!!! Maybe if that moron had gone to school he would realize what an utter dumbass he is.

Edit--you were the one who said six figures, not the blogger.

[14ers]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

Edit--you were the one who said six figures, not the blogger.

And I stand by it. $100,000 is six figures.

Lets count it 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6

Come on moron and tell me why you claim 100,000 is not 6 figures. Maybe you need to go back to school.

Idiot!!!

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by 14ers

And I stand by it. $100,000 is six figures.

Lets count it 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6

Come on moron and tell me why you claim 100,000 is not 6 figures. Maybe you need to go back to school.

Idiot!!!

From what I understand $96,000 per year is only five figures. Don't count the comma as a figure and you'll come to the same conclusion.

[14ers]

$100,000 is a 6 figure salary. I don't understand what you don't get.


The $100,000 is based on the teachers only having to work under 9 months a year. According to the California School year I saw it is actually more like 8.5 months a year.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Privatize it. Use government subsidies and private schools. Diversify and inject competition. The good will get better and the worst will dissappear.

I agree with this. I'd also remove any legal barriers that have been put in place that make it more difficult for parents to serve as teachers of their own children (not talking about testing criteria at regular intervals to make sure they are progressing, but rather attempts to prevent parents from reasonably exercising this option).

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by 14ers

$100,000 is a 6 figure salary. I don't understand what you don't get.


The $100,000 is based on the teachers only having to work under 9 months a year. According to the California School year I saw it is actually more like 8.5 months a year.

Where do you see 8.5? The blog that you pointed out said 9.

[Raiders Army]

From what I can tell it's more like 9.6 or 9.7 months.

For example: in the Carlsbad Unified School District in San Diego teachers started work on August 25, 2006. They will finish up on June 15th, 2007.

That's 294 days out of the year, which is over 80% of the year.

[JPhillips]

14ers: You make a very misleading argument by including benefits. Only if teachers are working less than six months are they "making six figures." You can argue that teachers make too much, but at least be honest about it.

[duckman]

For the dick who thinks that teachers get paid too much:

TEACHERS GET PAID TOO MUCH !!!!!!! I'm fed up with teachers and their hefty salary guides. What weneed here is a little perspective. If I had it my way, I'd pay theseteachers myself......I'd pay them baby-sitting wages. That's right........instead of paying these outrageous taxes,I'd give them $3.00 an hour out of my own pocket. And, I'm only going to pay them for five hours, not coffeebreaks. That would be $15.00 a day. Each parent should pay $15.00 a day for these teachers tobaby-sit their children. Even if they have more than one child, it'scheaper than private daycare. Now how many children do they teach a day.....maybe twenty-fiveor thirty? That's $15.00 X 25 = #375.00 a day. But remember, they only work 180 days a year! I'm not going topay them for all of those vacations. $375 X 180 = $67,500. (Just a minute, I think I added wrong!) I know you teachers will say, "What about those who have 10years of experience and a masters degree?" Well, maybe (just to befair) they could get the minimum wage, and instead of justbaby-sitting, they could read the kids a story. We can round that off to about $5.00 an hour, times five hours,times twenty-five children. $5.00 X 5 X 25 = $625.00 $625 a day times 180 days............That's $112,500 per year. HUH??????? Wait a minute......Let's get a little perspectivehere. Baby-sitting wages are too good for these teachers. Did anyone see a salary guide around here?

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by duckman

For the dick who think that teachers get paid too much:

That was pretty good...

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

14ers: You make a very misleading argument by including benefits. Only if teachers are working less than six months are they "making six figures." You can argue that teachers make too much, but at least be honest about it.

I'm wondering why it took so long for someone to say this...

Everyone gets Benefits in their full time job. Do you count that towards your salary?

You would need to bump everyone's salary up according to benefits.. my fiancee is a teacher and she gets about the same benefits as me, if not less - so it is very disingenuous to include that figure in there.

[thealmighty]

Originally Posted by 14ers

Talk about a teacher shortage. Where do you stand on only hiring certified teacher?

I don't care where/how they get there. I care if they are any good/care about what they are doing.

Originally Posted by 14ers

I think your Salary for older teachers is wrong. Most School Districts not only pay their teachers by the numbers of years they have been there, but also have pay raises for their education level.(Bachelor, Masters, Specialist, and Doctorate)

Umm, I am a teacher. I think I know how much I am getting paid/salary schedule, for my area at least. The "bonus" for having a masters degree is so pitiful it isn't even any incentive to get one if you don't already. I believe a starting teacher gets $1000 more for a masters.