(Opinion) What's worse, file-sharing or the Record Companies/Movie Studios?

[chadritt]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

What difference would it make? Oh yeah, I'd be paying them an extra $120 a year.

In all seriousness, have you shopped around for a better deal? Youre paying a LOT for cable you claim to not be using for anything other than live sports. If youre paying that much for cable tv without internet youre getting ripped off.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

The difference would be that you're not stealing and you're not risking a $675,000 fine for downloading 5 seasons of Gossip Girl.

Again, I payed for Gossip Girl when I payed my cable bill.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Subway isn't charging you for a meal that you know you're only going to eat 1/1000th of with no place else to get food.

But there are other places to get food. Hulu, Netflix, Amazon, Itunes, etc.

[chadritt]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Again, I payed for Gossip Girl when I payed my cable bill.

No you didnt. In all honestly thats just not how television works. you paid for that broadcast of Gossip Girl not all of them.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

That's the rub. I don't consider what I'm doing to be immoral. I have reasons why I don't feel bad about it, but there isn't sense in stating them because if you think pirating=stealing=bad then there isn't anything I could say to you to change your mind.

So you're just fine getting the stuff I work hard on, spending overtime and the like, with no compensation back to me? You're right, you'll have a very hard time making me believe you're not stealing from me, since you feel entitled to enjoy the fruits of my labors for absolutely nothing.

I get the "it's too expensive" and "I hate the company" lines, but the easy answer is: don't consume it at all. You're not entitled to it no matter what you think.

[chadritt]

Itd be like me trying to go see the Avengers again for free because I already paid once. Or trying to get a new Mazda for free because I bought one years ago. Both things Id love but thats just not how things work.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Again, I payed for Gossip Girl when I payed my cable bill.

Maybe you should have payed for spelling lessons! BURN!

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by chadritt

In all seriousness, have you shopped around for a better deal? Youre paying a LOT for cable you claim to not be using for anything other than live sports. If youre paying that much for cable tv without internet youre getting ripped off.

DVR rental is $12 a month. What exactly is the difference between DVRing something to watch later or downloading it to watch later? Other than the desire for other people to control where or when I watch something. And don't say I'm shorting the cable company. If I bought one at a store would I still be stealing from the cable company?

[bhlloy]

The older I get the more insane I think it is that a starving poor person who steals a loaf of bread will get prosecuted but we have large swathes of people who manage to justify stealing something that is just for their entertainment. I like the Subway reference, it's a good one.

[chadritt]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

DVR rental is $12 a month. What exactly is the difference between DVRing something to watch later or downloading it to watch later? Other than the desire for other people to control where or when I watch something. And don't say I'm shorting the cable company. If I bought one at a store would I still be stealing from the cable company?

How about this: Youre shorting ME and my friends and coworkers. Our jobs depend on people watching shows legally, either live or through DVR. If everyone watches our shows illegally were out of work. My current job got me healthcare by the way, i would like it to get a 2nd season so i can keep that.

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

DVR rental is $12 a month. What exactly is the difference between DVRing something to watch later or downloading it to watch later? Other than the desire for other people to control where or when I watch something. And don't say I'm shorting the cable company. If I bought one at a store would I still be stealing from the cable company?

Other than the fact that one is stealing and one isn't you mean? What's the difference between taking something and paying for something? If we have trouble with that basic concept I don't think there is much hope for this discussion

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

But there are other places to get food. Hulu, Netflix, Amazon, Itunes, etc.

This is a fair point. But my rationale again is this, if I'm paying for cable, why on earth should I go to ITunes and pay for last nights episode of Mad Men. Does the fact that I delete it when I'm done make it better? What if I had a VCR or a DVR, would it be ok to keep it then?

Originally Posted by chadritt

No you didnt. In all honestly thats just not how television works. you paid for that broadcast of Gossip Girl not all of them.

Same question.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

DVR rental is $12 a month. What exactly is the difference between DVRing something to watch later or downloading it to watch later? Other than the desire for other people to control where or when I watch something. And don't say I'm shorting the cable company. If I bought one at a store would I still be stealing from the cable company?

Because advertisers pay for their ads to be watched during a broadcast, which happens if you watch it live or watch it on DVR. If you watch it during one of the other legal methods I pointed out above, then they pay for that as well.

In fact, writers recently initiated a massive strike so they could get portions of revenue from ads and/or purchases of online content. I'm sure they're glad to know that you don't really care whether they receive that or not because it's not convenient for you.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by chadritt

How about this: Youre shorting ME and my friends and coworkers. Our jobs depend on people watching shows legally, either live or through DVR. If everyone watches our shows illegally were out of work. My current job got me healthcare by the way, i would like it to get a 2nd season so i can keep that.

What compensation would you get if you produced a show that aired on ABC and I watched it via antenna? What is the trickle down? I'm assuming you got paid to do your job. If I pay a cable bill, and your show is available, is it my job or my responsibility to inform your bosses that I watched it and how?

[chadritt]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Because advertisers pay for their ads to be watched during a broadcast, which happens if you watch it live or watch it on DVR. If you watch it during one of the other legal methods I pointed out above, then they pay for that as well.

In fact, writers recently initiated a massive strike so they could get portions of revenue from ads and/or purchases of online content. I'm sure they're glad to know that you don't really care whether they receive that or not because it's not convenient for you.

This.....all of this. If youre not watching it through one of the intended distribution methods then youre not helping anyone but yourself, in fact an argument could be made youre hurting someone.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

This is a fair point. But my rationale again is this, if I'm paying for cable, why on earth should I go to ITunes and pay for last nights episode of Mad Men. Does the fact that I delete it when I'm done make it better? What if I had a VCR or a DVR, would it be ok to keep it then?

If you had your own "moral piracy code" where you only pirate things you've had legal access to in the past, I'd say that's definitely a lot more restrained than a lot of other people's own "codes", but you've also said you pirate 50 to 60 movies a year, which seems like a ton when there's so many cheap options now. Isn't the fact that Mad Men shows up on your cable somewhere really just a coincidence? You wouldn't have a problem downloading it even if it was on a premium channel you didn't get.

[chadritt]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

What compensation would you get if you produced a show that aired on ABC and I watched it via antenna? What is the trickle down? I'm assuming you got paid to do your job. If I pay a cable bill, and your show is available, is it my job or my responsibility to inform your bosses that I watched it and how?

There are systems in place to track who watches shows and how, as long as they watch them legally. I may not think theyre all very effective methods and i may think theyre using methods other than what theyre telling people about but thats a whole different discussion and its pretty irrelevant here. If you pay your cable bill and watch my show then they know and I can get rewarded by keeping my job.

[Suicane75]

What if I close my eyes during commercials? Am I breaking the law? Was it illegal to use a VCR? Surely everyone here has taped a show and fast forwarded through commercials. Did you break the law?

[Marmel]

I'm pretty sure Suicane is not stealing anything. He might be infringing on copyrights, but stop comparing it to stealng a physical object.

Further, if Suicane watches something he was not authorized to do so, it is not taking money out of anybody's pocket if he wasn't going to pay for it in the first place.

What he is doing is wrong and illegal, but more on the level of smoking a joint and not stealing a BMW.

[chadritt]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

What if I close my eyes during commercials? Am I breaking the law? Was it illegal to use a VCR? Surely everyone here has taped a show and fast forwarded through commercials. Did you break the law?

Actually the whole concept of the VCR went before the supreme court. It was determined that it was legal and in fact beneficial to both the viewing public and the people making the shows because they could watch whenever they wanted and still were seeing the advertisements, even in fast forward. Its the same as a DVR.

Seriously though, it costs you $12 a month to make all of this a moot point. its easier on you and the shows get their money. everyone wins and nobody will ever get sued for it.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

What if I close my eyes during commercials? Am I breaking the law? Was it illegal to use a VCR? Surely everyone here has taped a show and fast forwarded through commercials. Did you break the law?

Nope, but that's all accounted for when advertisers pay for ads. Viewers that watch via time shifted methods do not count as much as viewers that watch live, but they do count and advertisers pay for them.

[Suicane75]

So if I see the Kraft logo in the blurry lines of a fast forward it's ok, but if I don't see it all I'm costing you money. That's bullshit. I know it's bullshit, you know it's bullshit. It's all so stupid. Again, my money is going somewhere, don't be pissed at me because you aren't getting what you think you deserve out of it.

[chadritt]

Dude, if you want to circumvent the entire business model for an industry feel free....just dont tell me it doesnt mean anything and that youre not part of the problem.

[Easy Mac]

For TV shows, I either use TiVo or a Windows Media Center. Tivo for cable, WMC for 95% of the network shows.

I then run an automated scan to cut commercials, convert it to a smaller size, and throw it on my NAS.

90% of the time it works flawlessly and I never see commercials.

I know I count as DVR for the things I record on Tivo (even though I never see commercials), but am I counted as DVR for things I record on Windows? I don't believe they're relaying back what I record. And since I cut out commercials, I can't be considered a person who is putting money back into the hands of the entertainment industry in this instance.

The only show I watch Live (aside from sports) is How I Met Your Mother. Every other time I watch TV randomly, I never sit through commercials, I just flip it to something else.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

So if I see the Kraft logo in the blurry lines of a fast forward it's ok, but if I don't see it all I'm costing you money. That's bullshit. I know it's bullshit, you know it's bullshit. It's all so stupid. Again, my money is going somewhere, don't be pissed at me because you aren't getting what you think you deserve out of it.

What about the 50 or 60 movies you download a year? Do you include those in your cable bill too? That $100/month cable deal is starting to look like a bargain!

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Nope, but that's all accounted for when advertisers pay for ads. Viewers that watch via time shifted methods do not count as much as viewers that watch live, but they do count and advertisers pay for them.

Then maybe they need to change the way they do things. Is it required of me to watch the advertisements in my "contract" with the cable company? Is it ok if I simply don't watch them live but not ok if I don't watch because I downloaded a show and they weren't there at all?

[molson]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Then maybe they need to change the way they do things. Is it required of me to watch the advertisements in my "contract" with the cable company? Is it ok if I simply don't watch them live but not ok if I don't watch because I downloaded a show and they weren't there at all?

They did change the way they do things - there's DVR technology, Hulu plus, Netflix and Amazon instant streaming, i-tunes, cable and satellite stuff on demand.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by molson

What about the 50 or 60 movies you download a year? Do you include those in your cable bill too? That $100/month cable deal is starting to look like a bargain!

$5 for 50 movies a year (and that is a high guess) is $250. Do I think the cable company gets WAYYYY more out of me than that for shit I'll never use, yes.

And maybe this does matter, maybe it doesn't. But I don't keep shit so I equate it more to renting than to buying. Again, these are my specific reasonings.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by molson

They did change the way they do things - there's DVR technology, Hulu plus, Netflix and Amazon instant streaming, i-tunes, cable and satellite stuff on demand.

Again, you're asking me to pay for something I've already paid for.

[chadritt]

How would you prefer they figure things out? how can they POSSIBLY track whos downloading shows illegally? They cant just say "this many people pay for cable" because theres no way of knowing what show theyre watching and splitting up the money accordingly. Advertisers are the backbone of the industry

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

So if I see the Kraft logo in the blurry lines of a fast forward it's ok, but if I don't see it all I'm costing you money. That's bullshit. I know it's bullshit, you know it's bullshit. It's all so stupid. Again, my money is going somewhere, don't be pissed at me because you aren't getting what you think you deserve out of it.

Your argument seems to be that your money is going to the cable company, so it doesn't matter that the network or show isn't getting anything. That's a ridiculous argument.

It's like buying bread, ham, and cheese and then stealing from Subway because it's too inconvenient for you to make it yourself.

[Logan]

Unfortunately, you lose the benefit of the doubt once you go and download things that you in no way were paying for. With a lot of things, there is certainly some sort of fine line when it comes to being moral, justifiable, warranted, whatever word you want to use. But downloading a movie over choosing to pay $5 for it kills the rest of your arguments.

[Easy Mac]

Should it really matter if Suicane steals TV shows since he isnt likely a Nielsen family?

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

$5 for 50 movies a year (and that is a high guess) is $250. Do I think the cable company gets WAYYYY more out of me than that for shit I'll never use, yes.

And maybe this does matter, maybe it doesn't. But I don't keep shit so I equate it more to renting than to buying. Again, these are my specific reasonings.

But if you don't watch it on your cable system, then the people who make movies receive less money for TV rights. And they receive less money for the rights to the many other legal formats we've mentioned since you're bypassing all of those as well. So you are stealing from them.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

Should it really matter if Suicane steals TV shows since he isnt likely a Nielsen family?

I still say yes, because if he watched it via one of the other methods, then they'd still receive money even if he wasn't a Nielsen family.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by Logan

Unfortunately, you lose the benefit of the doubt once you go and download things that you in no way were paying for. With a lot of things, there is certainly some sort of fine line when it comes to being moral, justifiable, warranted, whatever word you want to use. But downloading a movie over choosing to pay $5 for it kills the rest of your arguments.

You're right. You're absolutely right. In my mind I say to myself, I'm being forced to overpay for one thing, and I'm evening it out somewhere else. Quite frankly if I pay Ed Snider $500 more a year than he deserves to get from me and Sony studios $50 less, then fuck em. I'm ok with it and I won't lose a minutes sleep.

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by digamma

Also, last time I went to Subway, I didn't eat the last three inches of my five dollar foot long, so this time, I just took some chips to even it out.

If you want to compare it to what's actually being discussed, you found Subway's recipe and used it to make a Sweet Onion Chicken Teriyaki yourself at home.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by mckerney

If you want to compare it to what's actually being discussed, you found Subway's recipe and used it to make a Sweet Onion Chicken Teriyaki yourself at home.

Suicane is downloading scripts and reshooting the episodes he watches at home?

[Shkspr]

Originally Posted by mckerney

If you want to compare it to what's actually being discussed, you found Subway's recipe and used it to make a Sweet Onion Chicken Teriyaki yourself at home.

"...and that's why Subway started putting dark tint on the sneeze shield, Billy."

Originally Posted by sabotai

Suicane is downloading scripts and reshooting the episodes he watches at home?

"...and that's how we know Suicane isn't stealing porn, Billy."

[Suicane75]

Gosh I love a lively debate.

[CraigSca]

Ugh. Reading this depresses me.

[molson]

Originally Posted by sabotai

Suicane is downloading scripts and reshooting the episodes he watches at home?

I think this actually happened on Portlandia (available on Netflix streaming, BTW).

[sabotai]

If you want to compare this to something involving a physical location, it'd be like him taking a laptop and scanner into a Barnes and Noble, scanning in all of the books he wants to read and then going home.

And then his rationale would be "Well, they'd let me read them there, so it's fine if I copy them and read them at home." or "I over pay for my cable bill."

[Suicane75]

Except it's not like that at all.

Edit: At what point in your scenario did I actually pay for anything?

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by chadritt

Actually the whole concept of the VCR went before the supreme court. It was determined that it was legal and in fact beneficial to both the viewing public and the people making the shows because they could watch whenever they wanted and still were seeing the advertisements, even in fast forward. Its the same as a DVR.

Seriously though, it costs you $12 a month to make all of this a moot point. its easier on you and the shows get their money. everyone wins and nobody will ever get sued for it.

Let's not gloss over why this went to the Supreme Court. The VCR was killing the movie and television industries. No one was going to watch movies because they could just copy them to watch at home and give to their friends, everyone would record TV and skip through the ads. People who worked on TV and movies would lose their jobs or miss out on bonuses because sales would fall short, advertisers would leave TV because no one would watch their ads, and the entire industry would collapse.

[Blackadar]

*rant incoming*

The older I get, the more I don't fucking care anymore.

Both sides are fucked in the head. One side will jump through hoops to come up with any justification necessary to download stuff. The ass goblins who love piracy generally have the logical skills of a banana and the same old tired reasons just keep getting more exhausted. I don't care if you think you paid for it, couldn't afford it, are sticking it to the man or anything else. Stop justifying it. Man up to the bar, drink your Colon Blow and say "I'm a cheap fucking asshole who loves to wallow in the stink-pit of moral relativism when it suits me and my pocketbook." Fucking man up and have the goddamn balls to admit it.

The other side is run by a bunch of assbags who want to fine Grandma $50,000 for downloading an episode of Golden Girls but don't want the consumer to get any rights to content they already paid for (see: DRM, software "licensing", trying to stop used console game sales, etc.). There's a special level in hell reserved for these fucking pricks. They have no problem denying everyone else their money (artists, licenses, etc.). They have no problem illegally fixing prices to fuck over the consumer. They have to get dragged kicking and screaming into every new technological advance. But woe be the person who suggests that these shitsicles go fucknuts if they even think someone is getting something in a way they don't like.

Both sides have retreated into their respective foxholes so deeply, stayed there so long and shit all over themselves so much that both holes are brimming with fecal matter. You can't even see the point anymore with all the shit flowing around. There's no moral high ground anymore. It's flooded with all the diarrhea of the absurdity that is this issue. The best you can do is find some fat log that someone squeezed out to hold on to while the colon cannonball river keeps moving downstream.

So I'll do what I damn well please, whether I choose to torrent a DVD, fund a kickstarter or buy something at full retail. I'll do it on a case-by-case basis depending on how the mood strikes me. Because I just can't muster a fuck anymore.

*rant over*

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Except it's not like that at all.

Edit: At what point in your scenario did I actually pay for anything?

Where did the downloading games part of this come in? How did you pay for those before you downloaded them?

[JediKooter]

If only this was Talk Like a Pirate Day...

[Suicane75]

Games are a different issue. The last game I pirated was Madden 08 or 09 I think. I just don't play games much any more. I've never downloaded a game I would have bought. It doesn't make it right though, I stole em. I have pirated games and then bought them or the next version to support the developers. There are some games out there right now I could have easily pirated but I payed for them instead. There are games I never would have payed for if I hadn't pirated them.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

Ugh. Reading this depresses me.

Cheer up dude, every thing is ok.