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03-16-2006, 10:09 AM
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#1 | ||
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High School Varsity
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Breaking News:Operation Swarmer
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11857580/
Elemens of the 101st ABN DIV have launched Operaton Swarmer. The largest Air Assault since the war began. God Bless those boys. |
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03-16-2006, 10:11 AM
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#2 |
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College Starter
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Berkeley
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Mission Accomplished!
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03-16-2006, 10:25 AM
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#3 |
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Coordinator
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: The Black Hole
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The article makes it seem like an airborne mission as opposed to an air assault mission.
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03-16-2006, 10:28 AM
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#4 |
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Banned
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Astoria, NY, USA
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too bad they aren't dropping nukes.
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03-16-2006, 10:30 AM
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#5 | |
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Hockey Boy
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Royal Oak, MI
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Quote:
Yes. That is a shame, isn't it, HellAtlanticInMiddleGA?
__________________
Steve Yzerman: 1,755 points in 1,514 regular season games. 185 points in 196 postseason games. A First-Team All-Star, Conn Smythe Trophy winner, Selke Trophy winner, Masterton Trophy winner, member of the Hockey Hall of Fame, Olympic gold medallist, and a three-time Stanley Cup Champion. Longest serving captain of one team in the history of the NHL (19 seasons). |
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03-16-2006, 10:32 AM
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#6 | |
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Coordinator
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: The scorched Desert
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Quote:
Hmmm, suspect another assault will soon follow  |
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03-16-2006, 10:39 AM
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#7 |
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Pro Starter
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: ...down the gravity well
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You know what I wish for...I wish for the ultimate urban assault vehicle...I want it to be massive...like aircraft carrier massive...you can't airlift it, you just drive it into the ocean...could you image that sucker coming out of the depths, hitting landfall...rpgs and ieds be damned, they'd be like bee stings...and on the back was a grader, and you just drive over acres of insurgent imbedded areas (warning a few days in advance what you are about to do) and then you just drive over everything, the grader taking out houses, bunkers and the smuggling tunnels and then afterward with the earth level, you could start an urban renewal project easy...
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"General Woundwort's body was never found. It could be that he still lives his fierce life somewhere else, but from that day on, mother rabbits would tell their kittens that if they did not do as they were told, the General would get them. Such was Woundwort's monument, and perhaps it would not have displeased him." Watership Down, Richard Adams |
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03-16-2006, 10:41 AM
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#8 |
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General Manager
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Town of Flower Mound
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Get to inventing, Qwik!
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UTEP Miners!!! I solemnly swear to never cheer for TO |
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03-16-2006, 10:55 AM
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#9 |
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College Prospect
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Portland, Oregon
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I understand air bombing has a place in war, but when youre fighting insurgents in suburban areas full of civilians, it should not be allowed. Just another, "lets bomb the fuck out of it and then walk thru too see if anything is still alive" mission. I have no idea what the answer is, but i do know fighting terror with terror is not the answer.
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03-16-2006, 11:15 AM
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#10 |
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Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
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This seems like a perfect mission for the Recreational Assault Vehicle.
__________________
To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
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03-16-2006, 11:18 AM
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#11 | |
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Pro Starter
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: ...down the gravity well
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Quote:
I want it to come out of the ocean like Godzilla...
__________________
"General Woundwort's body was never found. It could be that he still lives his fierce life somewhere else, but from that day on, mother rabbits would tell their kittens that if they did not do as they were told, the General would get them. Such was Woundwort's monument, and perhaps it would not have displeased him." Watership Down, Richard Adams |
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03-16-2006, 11:48 AM
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#12 |
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Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
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Gentlemen, the EM-50!
__________________
To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
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03-16-2006, 11:52 AM
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#13 | |
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Coordinator
Join Date: Jan 2002
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Quote:
__________________
Down Goes Brown: Toronto Maple Leafs Humor and Analysis |
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03-16-2006, 11:53 AM
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#14 | |
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High School JV
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Florida Swampland
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Quote:
Since we are not fighting an enemy that is stupid enough to take the field against us we have to destroy them where they can be found. The problem is that we are fighting an idea, not an enemy of paid soldiers. This operation will do nothing but temporarily disperse and disrupt the enemy. Until we can win the hearts and minds war this thing will never be over. |
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03-16-2006, 12:08 PM
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#15 | |
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Pro Starter
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: ...down the gravity well
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Quote:
Sorry, advanced warning...everything gets moved down...there is a reason Japanese fanaticism was met with atomic weapons, I firmly believe that in order to break the insurgents you have to be more ruthless and frightening than the insurgents. P.C. in war is stupid.
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"General Woundwort's body was never found. It could be that he still lives his fierce life somewhere else, but from that day on, mother rabbits would tell their kittens that if they did not do as they were told, the General would get them. Such was Woundwort's monument, and perhaps it would not have displeased him." Watership Down, Richard Adams |
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03-16-2006, 12:09 PM
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#16 | |
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Pro Starter
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: ...down the gravity well
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Quote:
Hearts and minds didn't win Vietnam and it won't win Iraq.
__________________
"General Woundwort's body was never found. It could be that he still lives his fierce life somewhere else, but from that day on, mother rabbits would tell their kittens that if they did not do as they were told, the General would get them. Such was Woundwort's monument, and perhaps it would not have displeased him." Watership Down, Richard Adams |
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03-16-2006, 12:12 PM
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#17 |
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Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
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Hearts and minds didn't lose in Vietnam either.
__________________
To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
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03-16-2006, 12:13 PM
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#18 | |
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General Manager
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: New Mexico
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Quote:
What idea is that, exactly??? |
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03-16-2006, 12:15 PM
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#19 | |
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Pro Starter
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: ...down the gravity well
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Quote:
I would say it did.
__________________
"General Woundwort's body was never found. It could be that he still lives his fierce life somewhere else, but from that day on, mother rabbits would tell their kittens that if they did not do as they were told, the General would get them. Such was Woundwort's monument, and perhaps it would not have displeased him." Watership Down, Richard Adams |
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03-16-2006, 12:15 PM
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#20 | |
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Pro Starter
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: ...down the gravity well
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Quote:
The subjugation of all things not Islamic.
__________________
"General Woundwort's body was never found. It could be that he still lives his fierce life somewhere else, but from that day on, mother rabbits would tell their kittens that if they did not do as they were told, the General would get them. Such was Woundwort's monument, and perhaps it would not have displeased him." Watership Down, Richard Adams |
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03-16-2006, 12:28 PM
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#21 |
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High School Varsity
Join Date: Dec 2005
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A naive thing one of the reporters asked was: ''Why didnt we (media) know about this in advance?''
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03-16-2006, 12:32 PM
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#22 | |
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High School JV
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Florida Swampland
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Quote:
The hearts and minds war in the Vietnam era was not fought in Vietnam, it was fought in the US. In a way you could say we defeated ourselves. |
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03-16-2006, 12:33 PM
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#23 |
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Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
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I won't completely threadjack, but hearts and minds was not at all why we lost in Vietnam.
You can't look at Vietnam without looking at the rest of the world. We had recently fought a war with China that sprang from getting too close to their border and weknew that the Soviets were supplying the N. Vietnamese. We, quite reasonably, assumed that an invasion of the North would lead to some sort of Chinese and/or Soviet conflict. S. Vietnam was never going to be worth that much to us. Therefore, we got ourselves involved in a war that we could only play defense. Our goal was to wear out the N. Vietnamese and we couldn't. The hearts and minds approach was just another tool in wearing down the N. Vietnamese will to fight. But in the end the N. Vietnamese were able to keep fighting even though they lost millions of men, had more bombs dropped on them than used in all of WWII, and were technologically inferior to their enemy. We didn't understand the passion with which our enemy fought. They were willing to suffer for decades to achieve independence from colonial powers. The only possibility we had to defeat the N. Vietnamese would have been by capturing and killing the leadership and cutting off their military supplies. Because of the realities of global power in the 60s and early 70s we couldn't afford to do what was necessary to win. It was those geopolitical realities that lost Vietnam.
__________________
To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
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03-16-2006, 12:34 PM
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#24 |
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Banned
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Placerville, CA
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You can't compare Iraq to Vietnam. It's ridiculous.
In Vietnam, the US military was hamstrung by Cold War foreign policy. We fought a strictly defensive war. We couldn't invade North Vietnam because it would have triggered WWIII. In Iraq, we've been able to secure all the major military and civilian objectives, with incredibly low casualties. The centers of dense population are already turning around. Baghdad has nightclubs and fast-food restaurants. Women walk around in Gap jeans, not burkas. People are sick of the oppression, and they're enjoying the new freedom. You just don't see it on TV. But it's there. Operations like this are necessary to continue to crush the spirit of the opposition. Sooner or later, most of the fanatics will either give up or end up dead. Because we have the liberty of dropping the 101st Airborne on problem areas here. |
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03-16-2006, 12:37 PM
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#25 | |
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General Manager
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: New Mexico
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Quote:
It's ridiculous if you don't have an agenda. |
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03-16-2006, 12:37 PM
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#26 | |
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Banned
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Astoria, NY, USA
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Quote:
see Daimyo's sig: "Iraq is making progress. At some point the Iraqi's will get tired of getting killed." excellent logic. |
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03-16-2006, 12:40 PM
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#27 | |
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assmaster
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Bloomington, IN
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Quote:
I love Stripes. |
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03-16-2006, 12:45 PM
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#28 |
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Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
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Franklin: I think you're being way too optimistic. What I have read paints a much more mixed picture. Its true that some areas are doing better and that a general sense of "democracy" has taken hold. Its true that the Kurdish area in particular is booming.
But its also true that the Interior Ministry is full of Shiite death squads. Its true that electricity and water services are still below prewar levels. Its true that the Iraqi army has zero battalions that can fight on their own. Its true that sectarian violence is at the highest level we've seen. I don't know how you can say we've secured all the military and civilian objectives. Do you have any evidence of this? And when you say we'll crush the spirit of the opposition I don't see any reason to believe that. The resistance in Afghanistan went on for years without surrender. The history of insurgent wars is that most of the time they don't stop fighting. But even if you're right I think you're simplifying the problem. Right now there are a few different "oppositions" that we have to deal with. Are we going to destroy the spirit of the foriegn fighters or the native Sunnis or the native Shiites or the Iranian backed militias? Its not as simple as us defeating a single enemy. In the end I don't see this as being much more than a publicity operation. I heard 1500 soldiers being reported as involved. That's just not enough to change things. They may temporarily clean out a small area, but as soon as we pull back it will go back to the insurgents. We simply don't have the manpower to clean up Iraq.
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To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
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03-16-2006, 12:50 PM
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#29 | |
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Banned
Join Date: May 2003
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Quote:
I definitely have an agenda. That being an agenda based on the best interest of the US and US soldiers. |
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03-16-2006, 12:53 PM
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#30 | |||
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Banned
Join Date: May 2003
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Quote:
So why are we still there if all objectives are secured? Mission Accomplished, right? Quote:
Fast food and Gap! Mission Accomplished! PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN. hxxp://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/3726730.html Quote:
Good thing we didn't send the 82nd! Last edited by rexallllsc : 03-16-2006 at 12:55 PM. |
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03-16-2006, 12:59 PM
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#31 |
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Pro Starter
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: ...down the gravity well
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We should drop "Air Supply" on them...stop em dead in their tracks.
__________________
"General Woundwort's body was never found. It could be that he still lives his fierce life somewhere else, but from that day on, mother rabbits would tell their kittens that if they did not do as they were told, the General would get them. Such was Woundwort's monument, and perhaps it would not have displeased him." Watership Down, Richard Adams |
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03-16-2006, 01:05 PM
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#32 |
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Banned
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Placerville, CA
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My brother's been to Iraq for a year. We're most definately winning the war there, and we're making a difference. Most Iraqis are happy to be out from under the boot of Hussein.
Yes, the infrastructure still needs work. And the native army is undersized and underarmed. And the insurgency will continue for a long time to come. And there will be fundamentalist arguments in the government. Nobody disputes this. But to say that the effort is wasted, and we're better off just leaving now, is completely stupid. |
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03-16-2006, 01:12 PM
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#33 |
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Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
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Franklin: Nobody in this thread has said we should leave now.
__________________
To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
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03-16-2006, 01:15 PM
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#34 | |||
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Pro Starter
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Muskogee, OK USA
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Quote:
Actually, rexallllsc has been advocating that for some time now. I don't remember him changing his stance.
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Quote:
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03-16-2006, 01:22 PM
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#35 |
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Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
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But Franklin's initial post was before Rexallllsc showed up.
Its just too damn easy to say "We can't just leave!" I presented a number of questions and arguments, none of them advocating immediate withdrawal and Franklin gave me that response. This is why we can't actually have a discussion about Iraq, because we instantly transform into the same mindless arguments.
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To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
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03-16-2006, 01:24 PM
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#36 | |
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Banned
Join Date: May 2003
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Quote:
So we're "most definitely" winning the war, but "the insurgency" (those who we're fighting) are going to continue for a long time to come. Hm. Doesn't sound like we're definitely winning ANYTHING to me. |
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03-16-2006, 01:25 PM
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#37 | ||
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lolzcat
Join Date: May 2001
Location: williamsburg, va
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Quote:
I'm not sure where I stand on Iraq stuff... but I just HAD to call this logic out.. Umm.. these two are not MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE.... is that hard to understand?
__________________
Text Sports Network - Bringing you statistical information for several FOF MP leagues in one convenient site Quote:
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03-16-2006, 01:25 PM
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#38 | |
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Banned
Join Date: May 2003
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Quote:
I have been, but not directly in this thread really. If someone tells me that all objectives are met, I do question why we would still be there. Wouldn't you? |
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03-16-2006, 01:32 PM
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#39 |
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Banned
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Placerville, CA
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Ok... so, if you're not advocating withdrawal (which, forgive me, seems to be the prevalent opposing stance), then what are you advocating?
My impression is that we're doing a pretty good job over there. |
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03-16-2006, 01:38 PM
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#40 | |
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Banned
Join Date: May 2003
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Quote:
I'm advocating withdrawal from the entire region - not just Iraq. Last edited by rexallllsc : 03-16-2006 at 01:43 PM. |
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03-16-2006, 01:41 PM
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#41 | |
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College Starter
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: The DMV
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Quote:
But were they wearing burkas before? Iraq was pretty secular before the war--in fact, the running joke was that Johnny Walker Black was the official beverage of Baghdad in the Saddam era. If anything, religion has more of a sway over the country now than during Saddam-era Iraq. |
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03-16-2006, 01:44 PM
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#42 | |
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Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Decatur, GA
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Quote:
Bingo. Women were wearing Gap Jeans under Saddam. So to say they are now and using it as an example of change is highly disengenious. If anything it is more religious now than at any time during the Hussein era.
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"A prayer for the wild at heart, kept in cages" -Tennessee Williams |
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03-16-2006, 01:51 PM
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#43 | |
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College Starter
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: The DMV
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Quote:
And the quality of Gap jeans has declined since Bush took office, so where's the progress?  |
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03-16-2006, 01:52 PM
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#44 | |
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Banned
Join Date: May 2003
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Quote:
But now they can eat Fast Food and vote for their favorite US-appointed/supported candidate! |
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03-16-2006, 01:56 PM
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#45 | ||
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lolzcat
Join Date: May 2001
Location: williamsburg, va
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Quote:
Thanks for ignoring my post, I see that you don't like fighting logic.
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03-16-2006, 01:57 PM
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#46 | |
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Pro Starter
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Fairfax, VA
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Quote:
I think a couple others here would agree with you if you added dropping a nuke on them after the withdrawal.  Last edited by Bee : 03-16-2006 at 01:57 PM. |
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03-16-2006, 01:58 PM
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#47 | |
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Banned
Join Date: May 2003
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Quote:
Hmmm...didn't even see it until just now. |
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03-16-2006, 02:00 PM
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#48 |
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Banned
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Placerville, CA
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Right... so, basically, you're saying life was dandy under Saddam... and we never should have done anything in the first place.
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03-16-2006, 02:00 PM
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#49 |
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Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
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I'd like for us to start a timed withdrawal rebasing for a while in Kuwait. I was hoping we would start this after the elections, but maybe we can start after the government forms(if?). I think we need to find something that we can call victory ASAP. My biggest worry is leaving without anything to call victory.
Its clear that we can't sustain our current deployment levels much past 2006. That being the case, we need to figure out how to deal with the inevitable in the way that's best for us. I don't think it hurts us as much to call it victory and start to phase out as it will if we start to drawn down without any signs of improvement. Any way you look at it its almost impossible to believe we can sustain our current force level for much longer. I think we have to really put the burden on the Iraqis. I have come to the opinion that we can't fix their problems. Add to that the fact that the leaders of the different sects have said its okay for natives to kill Coalition forces. I don't see it feasible to stay sort of fighting, sort of not for much longer. In a lot of ways I think we've gotten to a point of picking the least bad option. So many decisions have been made that have fucked this up that it's difficult to see how to fix it. I think this is the time to find the best possible exit strategy and commit to it. It won't be pretty, but I don't think staying the course will work any better.
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To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
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03-16-2006, 02:02 PM
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#50 | |
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Banned
Join Date: May 2003
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Quote:
I think they're tied in. If you're definitely winning a war, I find it hard to believe that the insurgency would last for a long time. So basically what was said is: -We are definitely winning the war v. the insurgency -The insurgency will be around for a long time Sorry, I don't see that as winning. Sounds like what happened in Afghanistan w/ the Soviets. |
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