Get your voice heard for the football game you want

[Gary Gorski]

I wanted to relay that we are starting developer dynasty streams on Twitch. We did one for pro baseball on Tuesday and tonight at 7:30 EST we are doing our first for DDS:PF21

Twitch

I know everyone here is disappointed with the FOF/OOTP news and when and if Jim does FOF9 I am sure it will be a great game but in the mean time if you want to try and get into a new game this is a great opportunity to come see what we are working on and be part of the discussion for what you need to see in order to make it a game you want to play.

We are very interested in getting feedback from the community for the game and who knows, you might just end up with two football games you love. That would be a high quality problem to have!

[NobodyHere]

Will the game have beer tents?

[GrantDawg]

This has always been my pet peeve in every football game, and I am sure no one else cares. The game should start at the end of the previous season. 99% of all hiring (whether it is GM or Head Coach) is done right after a season, yet all football sims seem to want to start you at the beginning of camp, and you just have to deal with the coaches/roster for an entire season. There should at least be an option to start pre-draft and free agency.

I will hang up and listen.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

This has always been my pet peeve in every football game, and I am sure no one else cares. The game should start at the end of the previous season. 99% of all hiring (whether it is GM or Head Coach) is done right after a season, yet all football sims seem to want to start you at the beginning of camp, and you just have to deal with the coaches/roster for an entire season. There should at least be an option to start pre-draft and free agency.

I will hang up and listen.

*upvote*

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

This has always been my pet peeve in every football game, and I am sure no one else cares. The game should start at the end of the previous season. 99% of all hiring (whether it is GM or Head Coach) is done right after a season, yet all football sims seem to want to start you at the beginning of camp, and you just have to deal with the coaches/roster for an entire season. There should at least be an option to start pre-draft and free agency.

I will hang up and listen.

Agree

and I would REALLY love to see a game that finally allowed you to experience both college and pro football in the same game, where you could follow college players through NFL career, have an opportunity after a successful college career to get an NFL job. I know both games have totally different dynamics with recruiting in college and free agency in the NFL, but as long as you are asking, this is my dream football game.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

Agree

and I would REALLY love to see a game that finally allowed you to experience both college and pro football in the same game, where you could follow college players through NFL career, have an opportunity after a successful college career to get an NFL job. I know both games have totally different dynamics with recruiting in college and free agency in the NFL, but as long as you are asking, this is my dream football game.

Dude. That would be so awesome.

[laser]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

This has always been my pet peeve in every football game, and I am sure no one else cares. The game should start at the end of the previous season. 99% of all hiring (whether it is GM or Head Coach) is done right after a season, yet all football sims seem to want to start you at the beginning of camp, and you just have to deal with the coaches/roster for an entire season. There should at least be an option to start pre-draft and free agency.

I will hang up and listen.

I agree 1000%

[IlliniCub]

More personality for one. Most of the football games are leagues behind other sports in making it feel like a living, breathing, football universe. I want more actual scouting reports. I want word from my offensive line coach after games evaluating the performance of my guard.
For whatever reason when I try the draft day football sims, I just don't see a lot of variation in the players with the rating system provided. I have tried so hard to get into them as I am starved for a football sim, but I can't. I don't mean that to come across as mean or me being a jerk, as I know you guys work your ass off. I'm just being honest.

[tarcone]

I agree on the college and pro game idea.

Maybe not run it concurrently. But play the college season then it transitions to the pro game.

This way you have the draft and then it goes to the pro game.

That may help the FA and recruiting issues

In a college game I would like to see stream lined recruiting. I really like how it is done in EAs NCAA14.

[Swaggs]

Agreed on timing of the season and combining college and professional in the same universe.

Maybe I’m a nerd, but I also want the option to fill out the coaching staffs and be able to hire coaches away from colleges (or vice versa), see them leave for better opportunities (NFL DC/OCs leaving for college and pro head coaching jobs, position coaches becoming co-ordinations, maybe even coaches wanting GM opportunities, etc.). I’d settle for co-ordinatiors And offensive and defensive assistants, but prefer position coaches than improve effectiveness with the position players they work with (like a coach that has been both a QB and OL coach would be more effective as an OC). Add those and a rich football reference-type almanac, and I’m happy. I guess a good financial engine, as well.

[Carman Bulldog]

Yes to starting at the end of the season. I want to draft my incoming draft class and sign free agents (and potentially hire my staff), not inherit what's there already. Doing it the other way seems like I'm simply treading water for a year.

Also yes to positional coaches that affect development at the different positions (and being able to groom these guys for OC/DC).

I personally don't even need a playable college universe, so long as the universe is actually there. Give me college (and Canadian) leagues that I can simply view and that are going on around me, and where I can pluck coaches and players from, and I'm happy. It's obviously better if these can be controlled, but even the ability to sign the next Cameron Wake and hire the next Marc Trestman would be great. And as someone mentioned, an almanac where I can see their career stats, including NCAA, CFL and NFL.

I think a bigger focus also needs to be made on player types. Let me draft a bunch of small, athletic linemen and run a zone blocking scheme. Guys shouldn't just have a run block grade and be interchangeable regardless of blocking scheme. This also means I need to bring in an OC and/or an OL coach with experience in these areas and shouldn't be an arbitrary choice to just be able to switch on a whim.

[GrantDawg]

So many great ideas here. It is sad most will never be implemented. When you think about the fact the message board has been around almost a quarter century, and the American football manager landscape has really only made baby steps. Especially when you look at where Champion Manager was 20+ years ago, and the depth of the game now. I know it is about money. I get it. But still, we have many multiple thousands time more powerful computers, huge leaps in graphics capabilities, yet the football manager Sims are basically still the same.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[Mota]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

So many great ideas here. It is sad most will never be implemented. When you think about the fact the message board has been around almost a quarter century, and the American football manager landscape has really only made baby steps. Especially when you look at where Champion Manager was 20+ years ago, and the depth of the game now. I know it is about money. I get it. But still, we have many multiple thousands time more powerful computers, huge leaps in graphics capabilities, yet the football manager Sims are basically still the same.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

I hope that 5-10 years from now we'll be able to talk about that evolution in football games that happened. You're right, at this moment they do seem to be behind many other sports. And with football, there aren't many bigger sports in North America for sure, so the potential for revenue is there.

Now regarding the Draft Day Sports football game, I would ask for a better in-game presentation. While I don't mind the UI and the menu system, the in-game presentation frustrates me. I've played several versions over the years. Those little circle icons move around the screen, but you don't get a good idea of what is actually happening. Was the pass complete or not? It just doesn't seem clear, and then creates frustration for me.

If you want an example of a game whose in-game presentation is much more pleasing (with the same relative level of technology), Action PC Sports Football seems to be really good. It seems to be a good balance of field view, with plenty of buttons to be pushed to customize your plays and reads. I'd love to see a career based game using a similar type of presentation.

Also with the college game, streamlined recruiting is a must because of the number of players you must recruit. I LOVE the college basketball game and how in depth you can get with the recruiting, but I"m getting between 2-4 players a season usually. If I had to do the same thing for 15 players a year, it seems to be a chore. I haven't gone beyond the first offseason with either football game, over probably 3 different versions.

[fortheglory]

More GM related features (hold outs, franchise Tags, transition players, inflation, cap changes etc

So a much more robust financial system


Also a better scouting and rating system...scouting should never be exact, and overall ratings should be based on stars..not a 1-100 scale.

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by fortheglory

More GM related features (hold outs, franchise Tags, transition players, inflation, cap changes etc

So a much more robust financial system


Also a better scouting and rating system...scouting should never be exact, and overall ratings should be based on stars..not a 1-100 scale.

Agreed. I deleted the demo pretty quickly because the financial model is very poor. Although conversely I love the inclusion of more detailed cap information for future years: just make the actual contracts and contract level better.

Disappointingly one of the first things they said in the Twitch replay I watched was that they hadn’t made any changes to that aspect from last year’s game, and didn’t plan to do much, if anything at all.

[IlliniCub]

I also wish football games felt more like a cohesive universe, most feel like a collection of mini games. Other sports sims do a better job of making management tasks feel more fluid and integrated.

[james17]

Originally Posted by IlliniCub

More personality for one. Most of the football games are leagues behind other sports in making it feel like a living, breathing, football universe. I want more actual scouting reports. I want word from my offensive line coach after games evaluating the performance of my guard.
For whatever reason when I try the draft day football sims, I just don't see a lot of variation in the players with the rating system provided. I have tried so hard to get into them as I am starved for a football sim, but I can't. I don't mean that to come across as mean or me being a jerk, as I know you guys work your ass off. I'm just being honest.

Strongly agree with this and with the need for a more robust financial system. Don't want to sell hot dogs and beer but the cap, contracts, and free agency really need more attention in being more like the real NFL.

[Carman Bulldog]

Originally Posted by james17

... and free agency really need more attention in being more like the real NFL.

And compensatory picks!

[bhlloy]

Awesome thread. I think I'm on the same page as most people who have commented so far.

Really what I'm interested in a football sim (or any sports sim to be honest, I'd love to play FM like this as a director of football as well) is a deep, detailed, realistic GM sim. To be honest, most sims out there tend to try to do both this and on field action and fall short of deep and realistic on both.

With that being said, what are some of the things that are a must in a football (or just a sports in general) sim?

- Realistic player creation and development. This is really table stakes for me. Players shouldn't just show up in a draft pool one year with a bunch of ratings and some arbitrary stats that a game engine threw up. Also players need to be created with deep enough ratings that they play differently and can be developed accordingly. A good player shouldn't just be one with 9's across the board and a bad player shouldn't be one with 2's across the board - players should have lots of areas to be rated in (this is one thing that has always got me with GD sims to be honest), these ratings should be logical (e.g. a 5'7 WR should be more apt to have great speed and less apt to be good at red zone catching), tied to one another and players should have archetypes rather than feeling like they are something that a random number generator threw together. As mentioned above, maybe a "40 overall" player is much better for me than this "60 overall" player because he fits what I need or how I want to play. This entire category is why FM is so far heads and shoulders above the field, IMO. Also non physical/skill based attributes and traits should matter - do you draft the headcase with the 4.25 who could be out of the league in 3 years because he either won't put the work in to develop or will be in trouble with the law.

- Scouting, drafting and player development should be logical, fun and unpredictable. No sim has ever really replicated the NFL where every year there are UDFA who have much better careers that top 10 picks. Can you find them? This is tied to the category above, but also needs to be non-random or not just lumped into some hidden attribute. Is that 5'7 RB who rushed for 3000 yards at D2 actually any good, or is he going to get blown up the second he gets to the NFL? Give me lots of data and let me try to figure it out, but there should be some scope for me to succeed outside of "this guy looks really good and my scout thinks he has 5 star potential, clear first round pick and will be a stud"

- As noted, the finances and AI need to be spot on. Free agency shouldn't be "offer money, get player" and the AI needs to not suck at it. Relationships and other factors need to matter. If I bench my good players to tank and trade away anyone decent, I should expect that gives me a shitty reputation and I'll have a real problem to sign FA for a while. It's typically way to easy to tank and beat most sims, which shows their underlying systems aren't that deep.

So all of that sounds nice and simple right I guess the TLDR would be agreeing with IlliniCub and Swaggs.

[tarcone]

With all that is being said, I do not want such a steep learning curve that it turns me off. I would love to play Hearts of Iron or Europa Univeralis, but my lord, I cant wrap my head around them.

Sid meiers Civ games are in my sweet spot, enough to make it as difficult as you want it to be.

I do not want to be overwhelmed by a game I am playing for fun and escapism. I do not want it to be an actual job.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by IlliniCub

More personality for one. Most of the football games are leagues behind other sports in making it feel like a living, breathing, football universe. I want more actual scouting reports. I want word from my offensive line coach after games evaluating the performance of my guard.
For whatever reason when I try the draft day football sims, I just don't see a lot of variation in the players with the rating system provided. I have tried so hard to get into them as I am starved for a football sim, but I can't. I don't mean that to come across as mean or me being a jerk, as I know you guys work your ass off. I'm just being honest.

In College Football 2020 there is a performance report for each player after each game which I would think effectively be what you're looking for. I believe this is going to be ported to the pro game for 21 so hopefully that will be something that enhances the game for you.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by Mota

I've played several versions over the years. Those little circle icons move around the screen, but you don't get a good idea of what is actually happening. Was the pass complete or not? It just doesn't seem clear, and then creates frustration for me.

I like this suggestion - when I get into the 2D screen I will see what we can do here to make things like a complete pass more recognizable. Thanks for this one!

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by AlexB

Disappointingly one of the first things they said in the Twitch replay I watched was that they hadn’t made any changes to that aspect from last year’s game, and didn’t plan to do much, if anything at all.

I just want to clear something up on this - Brooks did say that he has not made any changes to that yet but he did go on to say that that whether he expands on contracts or changes some of the settings are all on the table (6 minute mark into the stream for those interested)

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

So many great ideas here. It is sad most will never be implemented. When you think about the fact the message board has been around almost a quarter century, and the American football manager landscape has really only made baby steps. Especially when you look at where Champion Manager was 20+ years ago, and the depth of the game now. I know it is about money. I get it. But still, we have many multiple thousands time more powerful computers, huge leaps in graphics capabilities, yet the football manager Sims are basically still the same.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

Well I would say the dual college/pro game is unlikely to be implemented because it's two different products and I don't see people paying $70 for a game especially if they don't care about one of the pro/college side and the new/casual fan that we bring in certainly is going to balk at Madden pricing for sim games.

The rest though why do you say they will never be implemented? Look at the development timelines of FM/CM, OOTP etc...they didn't start out being the games people love. They evolved into them because a significant number of people got behind the game and each version they played it, found things they liked, found things they didn't like and tried to get the developer to improve those things for the next version. I mean you guys have an entire forum here spanning decades because you put that kind of support into FOF.

I would argue that as a company we are extremely open to what our customers want (hence why we're doing these developer dynasty streams to give people access to us directly rather than hope we come across a message they post).

I would say that if you want that kind of evolution now in a football game we're your best shot. With our games you know we're committed to making new versions each year, we not only take feedback on our forums but I'm out here soliciting feedback and encouraging people to come chat with us and tell us what you want and I will be the first person to credit some of the best improvements in the basketball lines over the years to the community so to me getting feedback and trying to do something with it is very important.

I do think though that community support is critical to seeing that evolution. If what you (*edit to post that not replying to GD in particular here but a general you) want is FOF9 I can't help you - we never set out to make FOF. Jim does his thing and we do ours. If you want the kind of things you say haven't happened in a sim football game for 25 years though why not get involved for a version or two with us and see if we can deliver toward the goal you want and by getting involved I mean the same way people got those other games to where they were - a lot of playing, a lot of talking, a lot of looking at the game for what it does well and talking to the developer about how it can do other things better. We'll listen and do our best and maybe just end up with the FM of football sims with your help.

[IlliniCub]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

Well I would say the dual college/pro game is unlikely to be implemented because it's two different products and I don't see people paying $70 for a game especially if they don't care about one of the pro/college side and the new/casual fan that we bring in certainly is going to balk at Madden pricing for sim games.

The rest though why do you say they will never be implemented? Look at the development timelines of FM/CM, OOTP etc...they didn't start out being the games people love. They evolved into them because a significant number of people got behind the game and each version they played it, found things they liked, found things they didn't like and tried to get the developer to improve those things for the next version. I mean you guys have an entire forum here spanning decades because you put that kind of support into FOF.

I would argue that as a company we are extremely open to what our customers want (hence why we're doing these developer dynasty streams to give people access to us directly rather than hope we come across a message they post).

I would say that if you want that kind of evolution now in a football game we're your best shot. With our games you know we're committed to making new versions each year, we not only take feedback on our forums but I'm out here soliciting feedback and encouraging people to come chat with us and tell us what you want and I will be the first person to credit some of the best improvements in the basketball lines over the years to the community so to me getting feedback and trying to do something with it is very important.

I do think though that community support is critical to seeing that evolution. If what you (*edit to post that not replying to GD in particular here but a general you) want is FOF9 I can't help you - we never set out to make FOF. Jim does his thing and we do ours. If you want the kind of things you say haven't happened in a sim football game for 25 years though why not get involved for a version or two with us and see if we can deliver toward the goal you want and by getting involved I mean the same way people got those other games to where they were - a lot of playing, a lot of talking, a lot of looking at the game for what it does well and talking to the developer about how it can do other things better. We'll listen and do our best and maybe just end up with the FM of football sims with your help.

I play this game pro strategy football Save 15% on Pro Strategy Football 2020 on Steam
a lot on my phone when I'm out and about. If you combined the in game experience of this with deep management and off field capability you would have a touchdown. I'll be honest I really struggle to get into the current football games and especially the actual 2d coaching aspect.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

Well I would say the dual college/pro game is unlikely to be implemented because it's two different products and I don't see people paying $70 for a game especially if they don't care about one of the pro/college side and the new/casual fan that we bring in certainly is going to balk at Madden pricing for sim games.

They are two different products because marketing makes it so. FM has the league rules at different levels for how many leagues? Anyone playing all of them? Even if you care nothing about the college game, having the full college experience fleshed out in game would make drafting so much more enjoyable. Even if you cared nothing for the pro game, seeing how your former players did after they went on to the pros would be fun. College football is the farm system for the pros, and I have always found every Pro simulator's drafting to be "meh" because there is no actual college system from which they come. Empty stats that come from nothing don't excite me. BTW, I would pay $140 for college/pro combo game.

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

The rest though why do you say they will never be implemented? Look at the development timelines of FM/CM, OOTP etc...they didn't start out being the games people love. They evolved into them because a significant number of people got behind the game and each version they played it, found things they liked, found things they didn't like and tried to get the developer to improve those things for the next version. I mean you guys have an entire forum here spanning decades because you put that kind of support into FOF.

There have been 30+ years of Football sims, and they stagnated about 20 years ago. I have no faith any longer, unless a major production company decides to spend real money on a large creative team. The market is just too niche, or at least there has never been anyone that has been able to create anything that has capture enough of a market to prove it viable. We should have much more at this point if it were ever to happen.

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

I would argue that as a company we are extremely open to what our customers want (hence why we're doing these developer dynasty streams to give people access to us directly rather than hope we come across a message they post).

I would say that if you want that kind of evolution now in a football game we're your best shot. With our games you know we're committed to making new versions each year, we not only take feedback on our forums but I'm out here soliciting feedback and encouraging people to come chat with us and tell us what you want and I will be the first person to credit some of the best improvements in the basketball lines over the years to the community so to me getting feedback and trying to do something with it is very important.

I do think though that community support is critical to seeing that evolution. If what you (*edit to post that not replying to GD in particular here but a general you) want is FOF9 I can't help you - we never set out to make FOF. Jim does his thing and we do ours. If you want the kind of things you say haven't happened in a sim football game for 25 years though why not get involved for a version or two with us and see if we can deliver toward the goal you want and by getting involved I mean the same way people got those other games to where they were - a lot of playing, a lot of talking, a lot of looking at the game for what it does well and talking to the developer about how it can do other things better. We'll listen and do our best and maybe just end up with the FM of football sims with your help.

FOF isn't what I am looking for. It was fine 20 years ago, but I really don't think Jim moved toward what I was looking for in a game. He kept doubling down on the lifeless spread sheet. I want a game that draws me into the actual games being played. I want to feel like this is an actual football game, not just a math problem. I want it to feel like it is an actual real world. FM probably does it best. Look at that, and make it American football.

I will add that FM did it even back in the day when it was Championship Manager, and it was all text. They just hit the right formula from the beginning. It grabbed me back when I knew absolutely nothing about the sport. What it did was: Handled team management in depth and in a way that felt real. Presented games in a solid fluid manner. Gave you the whole world of the sport. Watching 16 year old phenoms going from the lowest levels up to the highest was fantastic. OOTP did that part pretty well, but they also sort of just stagnated over time, and have now became a card game instead of continuing to improve.

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

FOF isn't what I am looking for. It was fine 20 years ago, but I really don't think Jim moved toward what I was looking for in a game. He kept doubling down on the lifeless spread sheet. I want a game that draws me into the actual games being played. I want to feel like this is an actual football game, not just a math problem. I want it to feel like it is an actual real world. FM probably does it best. Look at that, and make it American football.

This.

I remember reading a post on another board from a guy who said one of the things he liked about FOF was that he could play it at work, and if someone walked by, it looked like he was doing work.

[Swaggs]

Also, would like to see these available foe Macs.

[Comey]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

I like this suggestion - when I get into the 2D screen I will see what we can do here to make things like a complete pass more recognizable. Thanks for this one!

Maybe a simple thing like making the player turn green if he catches it, red if not (and blue for an interception)?