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Old 08-14-2014, 10:02 AM   #201
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Originally Posted by Lathum View Post
I am almost always going to side with the police, but the longer this drags on the harder it is to give them any benefit of the doubt in this situation.
My step-dad was a cop and I would like to be able to say the same thing, but at some point this diverges sharply from community policing. Who brings a sniper to a peaceful protest?

https://twitter.com/PDPJ/status/4993...529409/photo/1

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Old 08-14-2014, 10:07 AM   #202
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That is crazy shit. Is that the local police or National Guard?
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Old 08-14-2014, 10:09 AM   #203
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Could have been anything. I could easily see a case where a cop goes to drive off, the kids either yell an expletive or flip the cop off, and then the cop goes back to teach them a lesson. Easily. Cops don't like taking shit. You don't afford the wrong cop the "proper respect" and you're being combative, or resisting arrest, and cuffed or pressed down against the pavement.

The question about what was said or done was rhetorical. It's obvious that there are pieces missing from this guy's story. Of course when the officer went back it was to "teach them a lesson" and not beause these folks made it clear that they intended to disregard what he had told them.
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Old 08-14-2014, 10:16 AM   #204
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It's like they are preparing for the ZOMBAY APOCALYPSE. Not a peaceful protest.

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Old 08-14-2014, 10:19 AM   #205
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It's like they are preparing for the ZOMBAY APOCALYPSE. Not a peaceful protest.


People threw a ticker tape parade for this in Boston. I guess they figure this is what the populace wants? And sadly I'm not sure that it isn't the truth.
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Old 08-14-2014, 10:20 AM   #206
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Storify really shines when it comes to these kinds of events.

Veterans on Ferguson (with images, tweets) · AthertonKD · Storify

@C#Ferguson 8-13-2014 (with images, tweets) · chronotope · Storify
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Old 08-14-2014, 10:24 AM   #207
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Good and the bad to come out of this...

Good
* The media isn't a cheerleader for the police/government like they have been recently.

* Looks like police militarization is getting it's rightful questioning instead of the Hooray USA for the NY Subway Cops with machine guns or the over the top Boston shutdown

* People are at least talking about racial problems. That's the only way they are ever going to get over them.

* The shooting can't just get swept under the rug. Social media does have a lot of power.

Bad
* The FBI jumping in right away. So Ferguson was given no chance to let the process work on it's own. Now even if the cop is charged with murder and prosecuted people will still think that it required burning down a gas station and taking the city hostage to get due process. Sorry the shooting happened Sunday and the FBI took over Monday. I just think the wrong message is being sent and no matter the results people will still think it requires near anarchy to get a "fair shake".

* The cops thinking they need military weapons and tear gas to bring "peace". If they weren't there and the media wasn't there I'm guessing a lot of these protestors would find other avenues to explore. The police are definitely a BIG part of the continued problems.

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Old 08-14-2014, 10:27 AM   #208
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jeffclement @jeffclement

A few people have pointed it out, but our ROE regarding who we could point weapons at in Afghanistan was more restrictive than cops in MO.
10:03 PM - 13 Aug 2014
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Old 08-14-2014, 10:29 AM   #209
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A lot of vets, me included, would go to Ferguson and gladly teach some classes on crowd control and patrolling You are fucking it up.
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Old 08-14-2014, 10:31 AM   #210
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People really worried about getting shot do not sit exposed on top of armored cars. @PaulSzoldra @BmoreConetta pic.twitter.com/9NO3Nn5tMI

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Old 08-14-2014, 10:31 AM   #211
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Bad
* The FBI jumping in right away. So Ferguson was given no chance to let the process work on it's own. Now even if the cop is charged with murder and prosecuted people will still think that it required burning down a gas station and taking the city hostage to get due process. Sorry the shooting happened Sunday and the FBI took over Monday. I just think the wrong message is being sent and no matter the results people will still think it requires near anarchy to get a "fair shake".

I think in a situation like this, having an investigation come from the outside is much more helpful. If the cop involved was cleared by local authorities, you know what we'd be hearing about next.

And Brown was shot Saturday, FYI.
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Old 08-14-2014, 10:41 AM   #212
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I think in a situation like this, having an investigation come from the outside is much more helpful. If the cop involved was cleared by local authorities, you know what we'd be hearing about next.

And Brown was shot Saturday, FYI.

Yeah I think the FBI or at least an outside agnecy did need to be involved. I guess my point was the FBI came in right after the riots and really there is no way the police would have been able to do anything in that short of a time period. So to the "masses" they likely think crime is the only way to get justice for crime. When for all we know Ferguson might have called in another agency anyways. I'm pretty sure even the smallest departments don't take officer involved shootings lightly.
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Old 08-14-2014, 10:43 AM   #213
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Anonymous has already released the name of the officer, with his photo, address, and more documentation still to come. Also posted this:


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Old 08-14-2014, 10:45 AM   #214
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And now this:


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Old 08-14-2014, 10:45 AM   #215
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Broken Handmic @13F2PL7

A lot of vets, me included, would go to Ferguson and gladly teach some classes on crowd control and patrolling You are fucking it up.

Yes. It seems like the national guard would be a better option. (My opinion only) Our governor is a Democrat in a red state and definitely has higher ambitions. I am guessing he is weary of sending "his guys" in and having possible blood on his hands. Though not doing anything could become his "Katrina".

EDIT: Looks like from Logan's post Nixon has finally decided to do something.

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Old 08-14-2014, 11:01 AM   #216
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To Name and to Name Not | National Review Online

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The behavior of the Ferguson and St. Louis County police in this matter is illuminating. They are ridiculously militarized suburban police dressed up like characters from Starship Troopers and pointing rifles at people from atop armored vehicles, i.e. the worst sort of mall ninjas.

They are arresting people for making videos of them at work in public places, which people are legally entitled to do, a habit they share with many other police departments. Protecting life, liberty, and property — which is the job of the police — does not require scooping people up for making phone videos; in fact, it requires not scooping people up for making phone videos.

It's real when you have National Review railing against the police actions.
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Old 08-14-2014, 11:11 AM   #217
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Cops are good people:

Video of Ferguson police gassing news crew and dismantling their equipment - Boing Boing

Fuck them. I don't believe the majority of police officers are good, I don't care the opinion of people on this board. The idea of being a police officer does not appeal to good people.

Tackling someone about to jump off a bridge doesn't do anything to make me think you are a swell human being. Being someone in that person's life that prevents him from wanting to jump? Yes. Luckily being in the right place at the right time? Not so much.

Edit: Just noticed this vid had been posted, missed a page since I last checked this thread.
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Old 08-14-2014, 11:34 AM   #218
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People threw a ticker tape parade for this in Boston. I guess they figure this is what the populace wants? And sadly I'm not sure that it isn't the truth.

Different situation - you had active shooters running around after a terrorist attack in that case, and the cops weren't pointing their guns at regular people.
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Old 08-14-2014, 11:41 AM   #219
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Different situation - you had active shooters running around after a terrorist attack in that case, and the cops weren't pointing their guns at regular people.

I understand what you are saying but my point is more about Joe Schmoe from the St. Louis County Police Department. He sees the ticker tape parade for Boston, gets to wear fatigues and hold a sniper rifle without having to actually serve in a combat zone, and is held in high regard by most. I'm live in St. Louis in the suburbs and the police are the heroes in this mess to most of my coworkers and collegues. I don't think the outrage is really as widespread as most think it might be.

(Again not defending this point of view, I really hold both overzealous cops and looting rioters in very low regard but it is reality here in St. Louis)

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Old 08-14-2014, 11:53 AM   #220
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I understand what you are saying but my point is more about Joe Schmoe from the St. Louis County Police Department. He sees the ticker tape parade for Boston, gets to wear fatigues and hold a sniper rifle without having to actually serve in a combat zone, and is held in high regard by most. I'm live in St. Louis in the suburbs and the police are the heroes in this mess to most of my coworkers and collegues. I don't think the outrage is really as widespread as most think it might be.

(Again not defending this point of view, I really hold both overzealous cops and looting rioters in very low regard but it is reality here in St. Louis)

Gotcha - misunderstood your point. Makes sense now.
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Old 08-14-2014, 11:58 AM   #221
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I'm live in St. Louis in the suburbs and the police are the heroes in this mess to most of my coworkers and collegues. I don't think the outrage is really as widespread as most think it might be.

Genie's out of the bottle on this one. How widespread the outrage is in St. Louis does not matter anymore. St. Louis cops would be wise to understand that.
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Old 08-14-2014, 12:07 PM   #222
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I'm live in St. Louis in the suburbs and the police are the heroes in this mess to most of my coworkers and collegues.

Sounds like you have a decent group of coworkers & colleagues
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Old 08-14-2014, 12:08 PM   #223
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Cops are good people:

Video of Ferguson police gassing news crew and dismantling their equipment - Boing Boing

Fuck them. I don't believe the majority of police officers are good, I don't care the opinion of people on this board. The idea of being a police officer does not appeal to good people.

Tackling someone about to jump off a bridge doesn't do anything to make me think you are a swell human being. Being someone in that person's life that prevents him from wanting to jump? Yes. Luckily being in the right place at the right time? Not so much.

Edit: Just noticed this vid had been posted, missed a page since I last checked this thread.

i have stayed out of this until now, because i know my opinions are vastly different than most people here, but i am not gonna watch this one go by

i honestly feel bad that your view of a group of people that have dedicated their lives to risking it on a daily basis is so immensely fucked up.

i went to college with the thought of becoming a District Attorney...my plan was to become a cop so that i could finance law school without a mountain of debt.

i jacked up my shoulder my senior year and as a result, was unable to complete the physical portions of academy entrance tests for many years.

so what did i do instead...i became a 911 dispatcher...for 8 and a half years i became the first voice that thousands of people heard when they needed help.

and in case that wasnt enough, i became an EMT, so that when i wasnt picking up the phone, i was going to the peoples houses to try to save their lives.

the entire time i was doing that, i still wanted to be a cop.

but i guess that i am no a good person

unless you have done it, you have no idea what it is like to do a job where you are universally hated for doing it...for showing up for work KNOWING that you might not go home that night, and instead, some chief or captain will go tell your wife and children that their father is dead.

people like you are the EXACT reason that those cops are acting the way they are in Ferguson...because you think you have a right to hate them for their mere existence...and since there are alot more of you than there are of them, you then hate them more because they prepare themselves to defend each other...they have no idea who the enemy is, because it is everywhere when people like you exist.

i am not saying shitty, corrupt, and abusive cops dont exist...i have known some...had to work with them...and hated every second of it

but for every one that is a piece of crap, there are thousands that are doing showing up every day prepared to put themselves in harms way...yeah, they get a paycheck, but would you risk your life just for money...they do it for the same reason soldiers do it...because it means something to them.

you on the other hand, are a first class asshole, who means nothing to me...you are the first person to say "Fuck Them", but i am sure you would also be the first one to cry about them not being around if you needed them
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Old 08-14-2014, 12:14 PM   #224
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I've known plenty of good cops. I'm sure there are plenty of bad ones too though.

I always go out of my way to be "nice" to cops. If I'm in Starbucks at the same time as one I'll buy them a drink, etc. Not because I want special treatment - I just figure that they get shit on most of their shift (esp. when they're doing traffic stops) so they could use a smile.

But then again I'm white and I spend most of my time in affluent suburbs. If I wasn't white and I lived in an area where there was more crime & a stronger, more intrusive police presence I have a feeling I'd feel differently.
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Old 08-14-2014, 12:14 PM   #225
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This stuff doesn't really surprise anyone in this area. STL has always been a very polarized and segregated metro area. It's one of those things that everyone in that city knows, but they just won't admit to knowing it. It doesn't mean all STL people are bad, but this was bound to happen eventually.
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Old 08-14-2014, 12:17 PM   #226
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That outlook makes sense, panerd. Because all 21,000 residents of Ferguson are looters.

(Silly me, of course they aren't. Just 70% of them.)
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Old 08-14-2014, 12:17 PM   #227
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please note, i do not agree with everything that is going on in Ferguson right now...they are stepping over lines that make them no better than the rioters.

i was responding directly to Jeff's blanket and ignorant statement

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Old 08-14-2014, 12:18 PM   #228
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It's like they are preparing for the ZOMBAY APOCALYPSE. Not a peaceful protest.

Are these pictures from before or after the looting? If before, then I agree. If after, the "peaceful" part was long gone from these protests.
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Old 08-14-2014, 12:20 PM   #229
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It doesn't mean all STL people are bad

Yes they are, look at their baseball team for crying out loud!
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Old 08-14-2014, 12:20 PM   #230
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so what did i do instead...i became a 911 dispatcher...for 8 and a half years i became the first voice that thousands of people heard when they needed help.

and in case that wasnt enough, i became an EMT, so that when i wasnt picking up the phone, i was going to the peoples houses to try to save their lives.

the entire time i was doing that, i still wanted to be a cop.

My god, you sound like some kind of monster.

I wonder what jeff061's job is that makes him so morally superior to you. Probably runs an orphanage or something.
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Old 08-14-2014, 12:21 PM   #231
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I understand what you are saying but my point is more about Joe Schmoe from the St. Louis County Police Department. He sees the ticker tape parade for Boston, gets to wear fatigues and hold a sniper rifle without having to actually serve in a combat zone, and is held in high regard by most. I'm live in St. Louis in the suburbs and the police are the heroes in this mess to most of my coworkers and collegues. I don't think the outrage is really as widespread as most think it might be.

(Again not defending this point of view, I really hold both overzealous cops and looting rioters in very low regard but it is reality here in St. Louis)

Probably because the cops are more likely to be your neighbors than the neighbors of anyone in Ferguson.
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Old 08-14-2014, 12:22 PM   #232
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There's a really good book on this subject called Rise of the Warrior Cop by Radley Balko which I highly recommend. It's not a bash job, it puts forth the onus that bad policies make bad cops, and I think that's more accurate than taking extreme views of the people that become cops.

It's also just a great overview in general of the militarization over the last 40-50 years specifically.
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Old 08-14-2014, 12:23 PM   #233
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My god, you sound like some kind of monster.

I wonder what jeff061's job is that makes him so morally superior to you. Probably runs an orphanage or something.

I don't look at a thankless low paying job where everyone will hate me and take it anyways so I can have the authority I always wanted.
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Old 08-14-2014, 12:24 PM   #234
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Seems like Senator McCaskill is doing a pretty good job conveying the message that the police need to de-militarize the situation.
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Old 08-14-2014, 12:25 PM   #235
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That outlook makes sense, panerd. Because all 21,000 residents of Ferguson are looters.

(Silly me, of course they aren't. Just 70% of them.)

I never said that or said I agreed with the viewpoint I see in my area but I also see no reason to put my head in the sand either and act like a lot of the residents of the county are outraged at the huge police presence. Go no futhur than the comments section of any St. Louis website and you will see what I am talking about.
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Old 08-14-2014, 12:25 PM   #236
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I don't look at a thankless low paying job where everyone will hate me and take it anyways so I can have the authority I always wanted.

I know this is the internet and everything, but this isn't helpful. There's no need to put forth such blanket statements during such a tense situation. It's posts like this that cause someone else to start a "when will the reign of terror end?" thread.
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Old 08-14-2014, 12:27 PM   #237
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I don't look at a thankless low paying job where everyone will hate me and take it anyways so I can have the authority I always wanted.

What do you do for a living? What makes you better than saldana? (and me, if people who work in law enforcement in any capacity are just as guilty)? Who do you help?

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Old 08-14-2014, 12:27 PM   #238
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There's a really good book on this subject called Rise of the Warrior Cop by Radley Balko which I highly recommend. It's not a bash job, it puts forth the onus that bad policies make bad cops, and I think that's more accurate than taking extreme views of the people that become cops.

It's also just a great overview in general of the militarization over the last 40-50 years specifically.

I think this is important to note - it's not that bad people become cops or all cops are bad - it's that the policies (and yes, the surplus military equipment) provided to cops has sent them down this path (obviously a blanket statement, not all cops are down it, and not all cops are good).
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Old 08-14-2014, 12:28 PM   #239
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I know this is the internet and everything, but this isn't helpful. There's no need to put forth such blanket statements during such a tense situation. It's posts like this that cause someone else to start a "when will the reign of terror end?" thread.


Fair enough.
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Old 08-14-2014, 12:29 PM   #240
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I don't look at a thankless low paying job where everyone will hate me and take it anyways so I can have the authority I always wanted.

yup...thats me...authoritarian zealot...i have no internal drive to help other people at all...thats why now i facilitate the distribution of clinical trial drugs to underdeveloped countries that have substandard health care.

i am a horrible horrible human being...douche.
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Old 08-14-2014, 12:33 PM   #241
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I never said that or said I agreed with the viewpoint I see in my area but I also see no reason to put my head in the sand either and act like a lot of the residents of the county are outraged at the huge police presence. Go no futhur than the comments section of any St. Louis website and you will see what I am talking about.

Of course they're not outraged - they most likely do support the police here, because the police are serving to protect them by controlling and containing the black people in Ferguson.

In part of their coverage last night, NBC showed footage at a local gun shop, where sales were way up since the weekend. It sure as heck wasn't because people needed to arm themselves to protect themselves against government oppression. They wanted to arm themselves because oh shit, the blacks are getting riled up.
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Old 08-14-2014, 12:35 PM   #242
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Are these pictures from before or after the looting? If before, then I agree. If after, the "peaceful" part was long gone from these protests.
No one loses their rights to peaceful assembly after a riot has occured.
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Old 08-14-2014, 12:44 PM   #243
molson
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Originally Posted by Young Drachma View Post
Probably because the cops are more likely to be your neighbors than the neighbors of anyone in Ferguson.

I don't know to what extent it's been attempted (I know it has is some places), but I've always thought police departments should more aggressively recruit in their own communities, particularly minority ones. Law enforcement is such a great career track for people who have societal and economic strikes against them, because you don't necessarily need a college degree, or to travel somewhere else, or to have gone to the greatest public school, etc, the qualifications are more practical. It's still not easy or anything but if someone manages to get through high school without getting in trouble, and has aptitude for law, and the right demeanor, and some of the tactical skills, they'd be a great candidate. And of course it would do wonders to break down some of the hostility in these communities. It's not about affirmative action, it's about more effective policing and better relationships with communities. Of course there will be resistance by a lot of people to join the police (and they'll be mocked by people like jeff061 for being poor), but even the recruiting process could make a difference in terms of positive outreach.

Last edited by molson : 08-14-2014 at 12:44 PM.
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Old 08-14-2014, 12:51 PM   #244
gstelmack
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Originally Posted by Subby View Post
No one loses their rights to peaceful assembly after a riot has occurred.

After one "peaceful protest" turns into a night of looting, you lose the benefit of the doubt.

Too many people in this country forget that with freedom comes responsibility, and if you don't use your freedoms responsibly, you tend to lose them.

Now, all the stuff about "turn off your cameras" I get, that's stupid on the police's part. Not defending everything they are doing, but as with nearly everything else involved in this and similar stories, the pictures posted here are missing an awful lot of context. The police do have the job of defending the town from the looters.
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Old 08-14-2014, 12:54 PM   #245
JPhillips
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Originally Posted by gstelmack View Post

Too many people in this country forget that with freedom comes responsibility, and if you don't use your freedoms responsibly, you tend to lose them.

So if you loot a store I am no longer allowed to protest?

How far does this collective responsibility go? All the people in Ferguson? All blacks? All U.S. residents?
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Old 08-14-2014, 12:58 PM   #246
Subby
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Originally Posted by gstelmack View Post
After one "peaceful protest" turns into a night of looting, you lose the benefit of the doubt.

Too many people in this country forget that with freedom comes responsibility, and if you don't use your freedoms responsibly, you tend to lose them.
You don't lose your constitutional right to peaceably assemble. People rioting and looting do not invalidate those rights.

That doesn't even speak to the larger issue that we should not have guns drawn and pointed at peaceful protestors. We have context because unless every single reporter on the ground there is lying, this is what is happening there.
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Old 08-14-2014, 12:58 PM   #247
jeff061
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and they'll be mocked by people like jeff061 for being poor

Oh come on. I'm exiting from this discussion as much as I can, because it's clear I posted with emotion and the end result was me unintentionally trolling.

But that is soooo far from the mark. I don't even know where you got it from.
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Old 08-14-2014, 12:58 PM   #248
Lathum
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Join Date: Dec 2001
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Originally Posted by jeff061 View Post
I don't look at a thankless low paying job where everyone will hate me and take it anyways so I can have the authority I always wanted.

I really hope you are never in a situation where you need the help of one of these authority craving lowlifes. I pray you never have a daughter get raped, or a son get stabbed, or any of the other countless number of situations a police presence would have prevented.
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Old 08-14-2014, 01:01 PM   #249
Lathum
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Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo View Post

But then again I'm white and I spend most of my time in affluent suburbs. If I wasn't white and I lived in an area where there was more crime & a stronger, more intrusive police presence I have a feeling I'd feel differently.

Maybe a more intrusive police presence is needed in those areas because so many of the residents are criminal scumbags who have no regard for the laws the rest of us live by? Yet that makes the police the bad guys. Got it.
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Old 08-14-2014, 01:03 PM   #250
JonInMiddleGA
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Originally Posted by JPhillips View Post
So if you loot a store I am no longer allowed to protest?

If your protest seems likely to incur additional risk to the community given the volatility of the situation then your "right" does have some limitations. At some point you wander into "fire in a crowded theater" territory.
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