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Old 04-28-2020, 10:16 PM   #251
britrock88
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JiMGA, your son's barking right up AM's area of practice, so the best opinions will be his. I spent a summer working for a US Attorney and it was intense but rewarding. The money in criminal practice is to go white-collar defense after putting in your time with the government.

As for choosing between schools, the money should be an important criterion. If it's close, then you can consider more seriously the size of alumni networks, geographic placement, etc. At a glance, Miami is 3 times the size of UTK, which would give it an edge. But I bet UTK grads do well finding jobs in the state of Tennessee in a way that Miami grads might not outside of the city.

In terms of positioning oneself to go government, it could be a strong signal to take up any clinical/pro bono opportunities that provide experience in criminal practice or even government law generally. Demonstrated relevant experience is a great differentiator when applying for jobs. (That's part of how I ended up at a state university system after internships at an appellate court, a US Attorney's Office, and a bankruptcy court.) That might also be a slight edge for UTK depending on what offerings they have or how closely the campus works with the state government.
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Old 04-28-2020, 10:33 PM   #252
albionmoonlight
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Geography matters. Unless you are going to a top 15 school, you should consider the region.

So, if he thinks that Tennessee is where he wants to be, then he should go to UT without a second thought. Same thing if he wants to be in Florida. Go to Miami and don't look back. And the people you talk to are right in that there is a lot more money in Florida than in Tennessee.

What I am not quite sure about is how each school would stack up in, say, Atlanta (which is the big market between the two). That might involve a little legwork in terms of looking at Alumni networks.

I can say that if I were looking at resumes here in Raleigh, I would consider UT and Miami about on par. I don't have a gut feeling of one as better than the other.

There is a pretty big $$ difference between state and federal prosecution. If he becomes an AUSA, he will eventually cap out at ~$160,000/yr depending on region. I think that state prosecutors probably get about half of that.

But that is the cap, really. No year-end bonuses or anything like that. If he really wants "I'm thinking of getting a second beach house because my first one is too small" money, then he's gonna have to go big firm.

You can google biglaw salaries. They seem to be starting at $190,000/yr now. (no idea how COVID will affect things)

edit: To be clear--an AUSA will eventually make $160 (with max seniority). A big law firm associate will start at $190, and it goes up from there.

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Old 04-28-2020, 10:48 PM   #253
JonInMiddleGA
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Thank you both, tons.

It's getting down to decision time and it's really such a near tie right now , that it becomes hard to avoid having "last thing I heard" be unduly influential. You both provide more voices, helps spread the influence out some if that makes sense.
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Old 04-29-2020, 11:47 AM   #254
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I'm in a bit of a legal career bubble, so I don't think I can be any more helpful than the people who already chimed in. But I know a lot about what's it's like to be a state prosecutor and what those agencies are looking for in the hiring process if he gets that far into it. For me, the transition was that into non-prosecutor criminal law roles with a state agency (appeals, federal habeas, legislative support, police training), which was the perfect job for me, so I haven't spent really any time on career networking, advancement, etc. Big law is a fascinating and bewildering world to me. I'm pretty sure I'd hate it. I hear a lot of things about people trying to escape it once they pay off their loans. I know we get big law lawyers applying for our job openings all the time - and we're generally not interested because the impression is that they just want to work less and don't care about public service.

The pay in government is limited of course, but it's much better relative to the cost of living in poorer parts of the country than richer. Just as an idea, when I was first starting out 15 years ago, the starting prosecutor salary was the same in Manhattan as it was in Idaho. And in Massachusetts, it was much much less. I remember reading an article that janitors in Boston courthouses made more than the prosecutors. I wouldn't be surprised - it was $35k in 2006 for starting prosecutors there. Saying that your salary went a bit further in Idaho than Manhattan is an understatement. And that kind of dynamic is still true today, even as my career progressed. Idaho doesn't offer a lot of law firms that can compete with with the overall salary/importance of work/work-life balance/job security package you can obtain in government. I'd guess Tennessee may be similar, and that Miami less so.

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Old 04-29-2020, 12:07 PM   #255
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Almost twenty years ago now I did some work for a big firm in MS. Their primary conduit for new associates was Ole Miss, and there were plenty of older attornies that had made that jump and settled in for life. Especially considering the cost of living in MS, I'm sure it was very attractive for those that weren't looking to move to more urban areas.
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Old 04-29-2020, 12:18 PM   #256
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Even though NYC, D.C., Atlanta, etc. are more prestigious markets, it was much harder for me to break into the Raleigh market. Big markets can just absorb lawyers.

But smaller and mid-sized cities have a limit to how many lawyers the economy can support. And when you are talking about a smaller market that still has a high quality of life (college towns being a prime example), it can be very hard to get it. Almost easier in some ways to become a big Wall Street banking lawyer.
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Old 04-29-2020, 03:00 PM   #257
JonInMiddleGA
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The quality-of-life issue is a whole other factor, even when making his decision now (much less a few years down the line).

Realistically, he could likely have a higher standard of living as a student in Knoxville than in Miami (although interestingly rent in similar areas/accomodations seems to be slightly higher in Knoxvegas).

And the eventual career push/pull is already weighing on him. He's pretty aware of who & what he is, he knows that he'd be quickly miserable doing (for example) contract law ... even though that's a better paying gig than the criminal prosecution side that he has a passion (and likely more talent) for.

I don't envy him the decisions that lie ahead, but at least I'm smart enough to know that he's the one who has to make them. That ain't my lane.
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Old 05-28-2020, 02:11 PM   #258
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Graduated one this morning in a drive through ceremony. It wasn't what it should have been, but it was good for the options we had. He'll be out the door before I know it and right behind him, his little brother steps up to take on his own Senior year next year.

Note his flower that he has on. It was his flower from when he graduated 5th grade. They kept it in the fridge to show it to me when I got home from a trip, and after a week, he was so impressed in the shape it was in he decided to see how long it would go. After a year, he was like, I'm keeping it until I graduate! Well....he did. And it looks amazing.

All sorts of mixed emotions of excitement, sadness, relief, proud. My brain is subconsciously counting down until August, but my consciousness won't acknowledge that it's actually coming..yet. One more milestone crossed.

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Old 05-28-2020, 02:14 PM   #259
thesloppy
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Congrats PM (jr)!
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Old 05-28-2020, 02:23 PM   #260
rjolley
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Congrats PM!
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Old 05-28-2020, 02:33 PM   #261
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That's awesome!
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Old 05-28-2020, 02:37 PM   #262
Lathum
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Love the flower story!
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Old 05-28-2020, 08:46 PM   #263
GrantDawg
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Congrats. My son also graduated today in a drive-through. The school had a virtual graduation on You-tube this weekend. Now we wait to see if his campus will open in the fall. No decision will be made till July.

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Old 05-28-2020, 11:00 PM   #264
Edward64
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Congrats.

School said some sort of July graduation (tentative) for my daughter. She had pizza outside with several friends where they social distanced.
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Old 05-28-2020, 11:18 PM   #265
rjolley
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Congrats to all of the graduates. I know things are a bit dark now, but the future really is bright. Just keep moving forward.
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Old 06-21-2020, 02:32 AM   #266
JonInMiddleGA
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And late Saturday night, Will made his decision official.

This fall he will head to Coral Gables, to attend The University of Miami Law School.

Well earned. And the journey continues.
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Old 06-21-2020, 09:16 AM   #267
GrantDawg
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Congrats, Jon.
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Old 06-21-2020, 09:46 AM   #268
Edward64
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Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA View Post
And late Saturday night, Will made his decision official.

This fall he will head to Coral Gables, to attend The University of Miami Law School.

Well earned. And the journey continues.

Congrats. I'm sure he'll enjoy the "scenery".
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Old 06-21-2020, 02:09 PM   #269
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And late Saturday night, Will made his decision official.

This fall he will head to Coral Gables, to attend The University of Miami Law School.

Well earned. And the journey continues.

Please tell me that he said, “I’m taking my talents to South Beach.”

Congrats to you and your family.
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Old 06-21-2020, 03:34 PM   #270
JonInMiddleGA
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Please tell me that he said, “I’m taking my talents to South Beach.”

Damn.

He's gonna be so pissed at himself when I point out the blown opportunity there

edit to add: Actually, he DID lol
This fall, I'm going to take my talents to South Beach and join the University of Miami School of Law! I couldn't be more excited to accept a generous offer to be in the Class of 2023 and look forward to what lie ahead over the next 3 years
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Old 06-21-2020, 05:57 PM   #271
albionmoonlight
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Good for him. Hope he kicks all sorts of ass there.
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Old 06-22-2020, 11:53 AM   #272
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And late Saturday night, Will made his decision official.

This fall he will head to Coral Gables, to attend The University of Miami Law School.

Well earned. And the journey continues.

Congrats to him and the family!

I welcome him to THE U and the Hurricane family. One suggestion. I know you mentioned that he was looking for a little spot he could call his place. For the sake of his studies, please tell him NOT to make the The Rathskeller that spot
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Old 06-22-2020, 01:37 PM   #273
JonInMiddleGA
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Congrats to him and the family!

I welcome him to THE U and the Hurricane family. One suggestion. I know you mentioned that he was looking for a little spot he could call his place. For the sake of his studies, please tell him NOT to make the The Rathskeller that spot

Yeah, I suspect he'll be too busy to do TOO much of that sorta thing lol.

He'll arrive knowing exactly one person there, she's one year ahead of him - former schoolmate & older sibling of an HS classmate. I imagine she'll be able to both help him avoid trouble AND find trouble lol.

Her & my wife have actually become semi-close over the past couple of years (independent of Will) so she's more family friend at this point than simply former classmate. Truth is, I feel better that there's at least ONE person on the ground there that he knows than I would if the number were literally zero.
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Old 08-09-2020, 01:10 AM   #274
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Since this thread was where several people were quite helpful with their insight about law school and online vs in person, I thought I'd update with how that turned out (since he got his class schedule about an hour ago)

Mon - 2x classes (4 credit each) online ("Torts" and "Contracts" if you're curious)
Tue - off
Wed - 2x classes online, repeat of Monday
Thu - 1x class (2 credit) in person (Civil Procedure)
Fri - 1x class (3 credit) in person (Law Communications)

So it's about 60/40 online, in terms of credit hours. He was ... less than thrilled about that but it is what it is. And probably could have been worse.

Orientation stuff all next week, class starts 8/17

------

Also, since I think I talked about housing at some point, he's settling into his new digs now. 1 BR condo in the Dadeland shopping/multipurpose complex. Came at a price about the same as several 1970s/80s vintage walkup apartments would have been, so right now I'm counting the housing as a solid win.
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Old 08-12-2020, 01:40 PM   #275
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I wasnt sure where to put this, as there are 3 threads it could go into, but settled on this one.

This new study from Yale is going to have a domino effect, and sadly its really starting to look like everybody will transition to remote instruction for at least the first semester.

Students need to be tested every 2-3 days for colleges to safely reopen | YaleNews
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Old 08-12-2020, 03:35 PM   #276
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I wasnt sure where to put this, as there are 3 threads it could go into, but settled on this one.

This new study from Yale is going to have a domino effect, and sadly its really starting to look like everybody will transition to remote instruction for at least the first semester.

Students need to be tested every 2-3 days for colleges to safely reopen | YaleNews
This is why my sons college moved their testing up to twice a week. They are using the Harvard/MIT test that is self-collected under supervision (except sadly for my son. He is under 18, so they will have to administer it). If there is a school that is meeting all the criteria, it is definitely his.
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Old 08-12-2020, 05:15 PM   #277
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This is my daughters HS grad pic. She finished 3rd in her class and is going to one of the best engineering schools in the nation to study aerospace engineering. It was 155 degrees on the field according to one of the guys at school. My daughter earned honors in all disciplines and was named outstanding science student.

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Old 08-17-2020, 05:10 PM   #278
albionmoonlight
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UNC shutting down in-person classes.

Multiple outbreaks at dorms and frat houses.
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Old 08-17-2020, 05:11 PM   #279
albionmoonlight
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This is my daughters HS grad pic. She finished 3rd in her class and is going to one of the best engineering schools in the nation to study aerospace engineering. It was 155 degrees on the field according to one of the guys at school. My daughter earned honors in all disciplines and was named outstanding science student.


Pic isn't showing up. I'd like to see it if you've a non-corrupted version.
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Old 08-17-2020, 05:42 PM   #280
britrock88
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UNC shutting down in-person classes.

Multiple outbreaks at dorms and frat houses.

Dorms that house primarily first-year students, too...

UNC going back early is certainly a useful test case for the other schools who are operating on a schedule that is a few weeks behind. But ugh. They made it all of two weeks from move-in and one week from the first day of classes.
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Old 08-17-2020, 05:59 PM   #281
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Yeah, doing drop off at Purdue now. We shall see if VT is still on in a week.
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Old 08-17-2020, 06:10 PM   #282
Alan T
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This is why my sons college moved their testing up to twice a week. They are using the Harvard/MIT test that is self-collected under supervision (except sadly for my son. He is under 18, so they will have to administer it). If there is a school that is meeting all the criteria, it is definitely his.

This is the test that the university where I work is doing as well. We are aiming for about 10-12k tests a week
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Old 08-17-2020, 06:14 PM   #283
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My niece was supposed to start at UTEP this fall. But since she is only 16, they've now said she has to wait until next fall to be on campus.
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Old 08-17-2020, 06:53 PM   #284
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The son of a guy I work with is at UNC. He was already pissed at having to spend $60K for a mainly online college experience. This is probably not going to make him happy.

I know a bunch of people questioning why they are paying $25K+ for a University of Phoenix education. You want families to suck it up because the colleges are in a bad place? Figure out how to run your business better.
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Old 08-17-2020, 09:14 PM   #285
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Im not sure what to do with that pic. It is showing up for me.

Missouri S&T finished move in today and there are 2 stuents that have tyestyed positive.

I doubt any school is open past Sept. 15.
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Old 08-17-2020, 10:08 PM   #286
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I'm really curious whether or not we can pull it off in NY. On the one hand we have normal students that will socialize and a mass of commuters that will live their lives off campus. On the other hand, if it can't work with NY's current positivity rate, it can't work until there's a vaccine.

I just hate having to be a part of the experiment.
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Old 08-18-2020, 12:06 AM   #287
JonInMiddleGA
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We are aiming for about 10-12k tests a week

Just using this as a prompt to add another data point.

Will got tested (Natl Guard site at Marlins Park) last Thursday, still no results.
I think it was the swab the brain style test.

Wouldn't worry about his lack of results so soon EXCEPT that a friend got tested a week ago today and still hasn't gotten results either. So if his take that long, he'll be unable to attend his first in person class scheduled for Thursday.

Hence he's trying to get ANOTHER test (at the University itself) tomorrow in hopes of getting SOME result back in time.

Point being simply that the process and efficiency definitely seem to be varied.
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Old 08-18-2020, 09:19 AM   #288
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The son of a guy I work with is at UNC. He was already pissed at having to spend $60K for a mainly online college experience. This is probably not going to make him happy.

I know a bunch of people questioning why they are paying $25K+ for a University of Phoenix education. You want families to suck it up because the colleges are in a bad place? Figure out how to run your business better.

I definitely wouldn't pay 60k for online classes.
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Old 08-18-2020, 12:32 PM   #289
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Gotta feel for kids. No good options. Unless somebody finds the money to start hiring a bunch of contact tracers...
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Old 08-18-2020, 01:20 PM   #290
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Son moved into University of Cincinnati on Sunday. I'll keep you all posted, as kids are slowly moving in all week. They really are trying to keep everyone as distanced as possible, but if my son and millions of college-aged kids are any indication, they won't be wearing masks when in proximity to each other no matter how many "rules" you put in place.
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Old 08-18-2020, 02:03 PM   #291
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Yep. I was just on my campus and passed three groups of 4-6 students. They were outside, but none of them were masked and they were shoulder to shoulder talking.
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Old 08-18-2020, 03:15 PM   #292
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I definitely wouldn't pay 60k for online classes.

There's certainly a reasonable question about whether some diplomas are going to be eventually considered with an understood/presumed asterisk.
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Old 08-28-2020, 09:53 AM   #293
GrantDawg
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Head to the airport this morning with my son to fly to school. The second we get to the airport, we find out the flight is cancelled. I have been searching, but I can't find any reason why. It was his connecting flight from Baltimore to Albany.
The biggest problem is he needed to catch a shuttle to the school (an hour away) at 6:30. His new flight now won't make it till 8:10. We are trying to figure out alternatives, but it looks like he is going to stay overnight in Albany to catch the shuttle tomorrow. That is if the shuttle is not full. Frustrating.

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Old 08-28-2020, 11:02 AM   #294
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God that sucks. I can only imagine how frustrated you must feel right now.

Can he just take a ride share instead of waiting on the shuttle?
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Old 08-28-2020, 11:19 AM   #295
GrantDawg
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And now his flight out of Atlanta is delayed another 30 minutes. Grrrrrr...
No, Pilotman. He can't check in at the school that late. We got him a hotel room in Albany. We had to make sure he could check in there (he is only 17), but luckily they have a deal with the college. I was very close to flying with him, but it would add it's own challenges at this point.

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Old 08-28-2020, 11:43 AM   #296
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We got him a hotel room in Albany. We had to make sure he could check in there (he is only 17), but luckily they have a deal with the college.

fwiw (for future reference) -- that sort of thing is a bitch, or at least a worry, when these situations arise but we actually had pretty good luck for a several years with calling ahead to hotels and such to get it sorted out ahead of time. Ended up solving every situation with no more than two calls on any of them.

Seemed better to deal with the minor hassle of calls & explanations than to worry about a kid getting stranded / screwed / etc.
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Old 08-28-2020, 12:11 PM   #297
JPhillips
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Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
Grant: Where's he going to school?

If there's a big problem, Albany is only 90 minutes away or so and I could probably help out.
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Last edited by JPhillips : 08-28-2020 at 12:11 PM.
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Old 08-28-2020, 08:27 PM   #298
GrantDawg
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Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Covington, Ga.
Thanks, JPhillips. Very nice to offer. He is going to Williams College. I think we are going to be ok, but it has gotten crazy.
He finally got to Baltimore for what was going to be a 3 hour layover. We are now on 6 hours. The new flight was delayed, and at last report it was not boarding until 9:50. They did just say they believe it should be a little earlier than that now. The poor kid has spent a long day waiting in airports. I regret not flying with him, but he just wasn't having it. He is just having an adventure.

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Last edited by GrantDawg : 08-28-2020 at 08:28 PM.
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Old 08-28-2020, 08:39 PM   #299
JPhillips
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Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
If anything comes up, if I can help I'd be happy to.

Of course he sees it as an adventure, he's 17. I hope the best for him.
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Old 08-28-2020, 09:39 PM   #300
PilotMan
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Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Seven miles up
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrantDawg View Post
Thanks, JPhillips. Very nice to offer. He is going to Williams College. I think we are going to be ok, but it has gotten crazy.
He finally got to Baltimore for what was going to be a 3 hour layover. We are now on 6 hours. The new flight was delayed, and at last report it was not boarding until 9:50. They did just say they believe it should be a little earlier than that now. The poor kid has spent a long day waiting in airports. I regret not flying with him, but he just wasn't having it. He is just having an adventure.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

That's exhausting. You're not doing anything, but it's exhausting. The fun meter is totally pegged the whole time.
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