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View Poll Results: If Trump Loses In November, What Do You Think Happens Next
Normal transition of power. He meets with Biden, stays until 1/20, comes to inauguration, etc. 5 5.56%
He doesn't fight the result, but resigns prior to the inauguration. 2 2.22%
He fights the result but gives up shortly before the inauguration (let's define "shortly" as "some time after the EC meets on 12/14") 30 33.33%
He fights the result all the way to January 20th. Has to be physically removed. 12 13.33%
He fights the result for a short time, but gives up and resigns before the inauguration 6 6.67%
He fights the result for a short time, but gives up an then we have a normal transition as per option 1. 30 33.33%
Other. (You know you gotta specify this one.) 5 5.56%
Voters: 90. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-19-2020, 03:02 PM   #351
CrimsonFox
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Yes it is. I am willing to put money right now on the fact that both Governor Kemp and Brad Raffensperger are primaried by Trump approved candidates in two years, and they will lose. There is no Republican party, only the Trump party.

I mean that's how they want it to worek and some people DO think that way I'm not arguing there. But it's all a perception. If people just say "no fuck you" the power is gone and they move on to the next thing or person
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Old 11-19-2020, 03:04 PM   #352
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The beatification of Trump was just the cherry on the top of this movement that is still hard to wrap my head around. That THIS is the guy, the savior, the Christian icon, maybe even a prophet. The far right went about it wrong for so long, trying to push actual conservative religious leaders. What they needed was a sexual deviant, a multi time-divorced, illegal-immigrant employing, elite liberal hobnobber, pro-choice, celebrity, gay-tolerant Russia-lover and adulterer. He is the one who they have followed. He is the one the Lord has sent. I mean, I guess people were skeptical of Jesus too. But this is ridiculous.

Right. It wasn't even someone like Huckabee, who is odious, but seems to be a person of faith in his personal life and choices (to an extent). It was someone who was clearly someone who hadn't stepped foot in a church aside from a wedding or funeral in decades until he started campaigning. Someone who was known for being a partier, philanderer, cheat.
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Old 11-19-2020, 03:18 PM   #353
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But, hey, Joe's a pro-choice Catholic so he's worse than Trump

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Old 11-19-2020, 04:09 PM   #354
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I mean that's how they want it to worek and some people DO think that way I'm not arguing there. But it's all a perception. If people just say "no fuck you" the power is gone and they move on to the next thing or person

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Originally Posted by Ben E Lou View Post
When someone tells you who they are...

^
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Old 11-19-2020, 04:12 PM   #355
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Originally Posted by molson
That THIS is the guy, the savior, the Christian icon, maybe even a prophet. The far right went about it wrong for so long, trying to push actual conservative religious leaders. What they needed was a sexual deviant, a multi time-divorced, illegal-immigrant employing, elite liberal hobnobber, pro-choice, celebrity, gay-tolerant Russia-lover and adulterer. He is the one who they have followed. He is the one the Lord has sent.

I just don't understand how intelligent people go into this kind of simplistic single-factor tunnel. Who calls Trump a 'Christian icon'? Seriously just look at what the evangelical leaders who support him have said. I'm still looking for one who didn't say 'Trump's an ass but it's about the policy but not the person' in some form or another.

This idea that they supported Trump because they like the sexual deviancy, adultery, celebrity etc - what basis is there for it?
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Old 11-19-2020, 04:16 PM   #356
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I just don't understand how intelligent people go into this kind of simplistic single-factor tunnel. Who calls Trump a 'Christian icon'? Seriously just look at what the evangelical leaders who support him have said. I'm still looking for one who didn't say 'Trump's an ass but it's about the policy but not the person' in some form or another.

This idea that they supported Trump because they like the sexual deviancy, adultery, celebrity etc - what basis is there for it?

The Trump Prophecy - Wikipedia

A third of Americans believe that God chose Trump.

About a third of Americans say Trump’s election was God’s will | Pew Research Center

I could cite a billion links like these but here's a couple that took me 5 seconds:

Fulfillment of prophecy? Yes, some evangelicals really do believe Trump is the "chosen one" | Salon.com

Paula White Talks God Raising Up Trump, Christian Remnant on Jim Bakker Show - The Christian Post

Pat Robertson: Trump will win, followed by war on Israel and the end of times - Israel News - Haaretz.com

Minister Prophesies Trump Comeback, Says 'God Hates' Biden Support of Equality Act, Abortion Rights

‘Prophecy voters’ forming core of Trump’s evangelical base | ReligionWatch | An Online Publication of Baylor Institute for Studies of Religion

He is a literal Christian icon and prophet to these people, sent by god to lead us

Edit: They're not voting for him because he's a liberal sexual pro-choice deviant (now successfully playing a fictional character of a conservative presidential figure), they're voting for him despite those things because they believe he is a prophet sent from God to restore the Christian white man's position in America before the end times. When you're chosen by god to lead, it doesn't matter as much if you have a decades-long public stance of being pro-choice and pro-gay marriage, etc.

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Old 11-19-2020, 04:23 PM   #357
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Originally Posted by molson View Post
The Trump Prophecy - Wikipedia

A third of Americans believe that God chose Trump.

About a third of Americans say Trump’s election was God’s will | Pew Research Center

I could cite a billion links like these but here's a couple that took me 5 seconds:

Fulfillment of prophecy? Yes, some evangelicals really do believe Trump is the "chosen one" | Salon.com

Paula White Talks God Raising Up Trump, Christian Remnant on Jim Bakker Show - The Christian Post

Pat Robertson: Trump will win, followed by war on Israel and the end of times - Israel News - Haaretz.com

Minister Prophesies Trump Comeback, Says 'God Hates' Biden Support of Equality Act, Abortion Rights

‘Prophecy voters’ forming core of Trump’s evangelical base | ReligionWatch | An Online Publication of Baylor Institute for Studies of Religion

He is a literal Christian icon and prophet to these people, sent by god to lead us.

Right. This isn't some sort of secret. Plenty of people, including BIG time pastors, believe Trump was chosen by God in a way that, say, Obama was not.
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Old 11-19-2020, 04:27 PM   #358
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Not to mention there isn't any thing he can really sue on. The transition people don't have to do anything until the EC votes.
One thing that has come into focus for the first time for many folks is that much of the smoothness of our early transition process is tradition-based, and as such is nearly 100% dependent upon having good-faith actors in place. We had none of these nonsense from the Carter and Bush administrations when they lost after one term, nor did we from Clinton/GWB/Obama when the other Party won after their second terms.
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Old 11-19-2020, 04:31 PM   #359
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He is a literal Christian icon and prophet to these people, sent by god to lead us through the end times.

The people you are talking about say crazy things like that in all situations though. There's an aspect of what is hilariously termed Christianity which finds demons under every rock, unquestionable divine intervention in whether or not they get a flat tire, etc. I mean here's some saying similar things about Bush:

God intervened to re-elect President Bush; George W. Bush and evangelicals; divine intervention in elections - Beliefnet

Robertson Says God Told Him Bush Will Win Reelection In A 'Blowout' | Americans United for Separation of Church and State

That kind of thing isn't new or Trump-specific. Meanwhile Dobson, Rosenberg, MacArthur, Grudem, on and on all cite the justification I described.

Quote:
Originally Posted by molson
They're not voting for him because he's a liberal sexual pro-choice deviant (now successfully playing a fictional character of a conservative presidential figure), they're voting for him despite those things because they believe he is a prophet sent from God to restore the Christian white man's position in America before the end times.

Yes on the first part, no on the second except for the extremists - which it pays no value to heed. I mean, there was a local pastor who tried to convince me and my father that MLK was a communist many years ago, and these people belong in the same category. That doesn't mean he was representative of Christianity or conservative evangelicalism as a whole (he wasn't, and isn't) or that there was some big political movement that thought as he did that anything more liberal than literal Puritanism enforced from Washington was a sign of the end times.

You can find extreme views anywhere, but when you ask people why they voted for Trump it's consistently been a combination of policy and his combative, take-no-prisoners leadership style that I've seen over and over again.

Last edited by Brian Swartz : 11-19-2020 at 04:38 PM.
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Old 11-19-2020, 04:36 PM   #360
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I personally think it goes a lot deeper with Trump, but that's not something I could prove to anyone who disagrees.

But there's certainly something different about using this rhetoric to describe a conservative Christian republican like Bush v. using it to elevate Trump. I kind of get, at some level, prophecies about Christian religious and political leaders. Trump had no conservative or religious credentials, and he outwardly lived a life contrary to those things. He was pro-choice for decades before he decided to become a demagogue and was chosen to be the next prophet.

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Old 11-19-2020, 04:44 PM   #361
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All that tells me is they hold just as fast to the idea of policy over the person as the rest of the country does.
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Old 11-19-2020, 06:29 PM   #362
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Old 11-19-2020, 06:30 PM   #363
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Old 11-20-2020, 06:24 AM   #364
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At this point, my money is on Option 3 + resignation between 12/14 and 1/20.

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He fights the result but gives up shortly before the inauguration (let's define "shortly" as "some time after the EC meets on 12/14")
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Old 11-20-2020, 08:28 AM   #365
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I don't think so. He's going to make things as difficult for Biden as he can, starting as many fires and putting them behind the 8 ball wherever possible. In addition to all of his other faults, he's definitely that kind of petty bastard, even if the country burns (or gets infected) just to satisfy his ego and need for revenge.
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Old 11-20-2020, 08:29 AM   #366
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I'm curious how long his patience runs out. He keeps losing so badly in court and I have to think that costs money. If his grift of "give to my legal fund so I can pay off my personal debts" is actually a money loser, that may push him to stop sooner. Then again, I think he's so insulated from the day to day ops and has so many yes men and grifters around him that they'll just tell him he's making money even if he's losing it.

Then again, it's really likely that he's just doing this out of pure old spite as that seems to be his dominant emotion. And, if that's the case, he'll hold on until someone he can't fire forces him to stop (or informs him that he needs to get to a non-extradition country quickly as it's almost January 20th)
https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/19/polit...ion/index.html



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Old 11-20-2020, 09:21 AM   #367
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Hopefully, this isn't what happens next.

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Old 11-20-2020, 10:16 AM   #368
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Love to see these militiamen go up against a drone.
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Old 11-20-2020, 10:43 AM   #369
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I remember in the mid-late 90s, there was a big "militia" (no, getting together with your white supremacist buddies to shoot stuff and talk about overthrowing the government does not make you a militia) scare in this country, too. Hopefully this mostly dies out like that one

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Old 11-20-2020, 10:53 AM   #370
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Calling your town "Sundown" is maybe a bit too on the nose.
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Old 11-20-2020, 11:08 AM   #371
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Love to see these militiamen go up against a drone.

Part of me does want to see these guys try something just to get smacked down and removed from the bloodstream. I'm not sure how they will be otherwise. But, that's also unfortunately not a great solution.
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Old 11-20-2020, 02:47 PM   #372
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Trump and Rudi would both look better with regular, balding, grey, old-man hair. I don't understand the shame in your hair when you're pushing 80.

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Old 11-20-2020, 04:29 PM   #373
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I don't think so. He's going to make things as difficult for Biden as he can, starting as many fires and putting them behind the 8 ball wherever possible. In addition to all of his other faults, he's definitely that kind of petty bastard, even if the country burns (or gets infected) just to satisfy his ego and need for revenge.
I think they are just about giving up any legal fight. They are instead going to push hard for state legislatures to send their own electors. That is where the court battle is going to come, and they think the Supreme Court will go along with it. Michigan is the first go. If Trump fails to convince them to do it, then he might actually be done.
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Old 11-20-2020, 04:33 PM   #374
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Love to see these militiamen go up against a drone.
I don't wish death on anybody.....but, yeah. What is actually more likely is these guys getting arrested just like their Michigan brethren. There is going to be more of these groups coming up with crazy schemes that will get halted by arrests. They are in general too stupid not to get caught in the planning. This going to be like the Klan in the 60's-70's when it was originally rolled up. Ebery other person in every meeting will turn informant.
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Old 11-20-2020, 04:38 PM   #375
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I think they are just about giving up any legal fight. They are instead going to push hard for state legislatures to send their own electors. That is where the court battle is going to come, and they think the Supreme Court will go along with it. Michigan is the first go. If Trump fails to convince them to do it, then he might actually be done.

Michigan won't work. Neither will most states. Michigan, Pennsylvania and others actually have systems in place to prevent what Trump is attempting.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/20/o...-election.html

The fastest way for this to end would be Collins going to McConnell and telling him to end it or she's switching parties.
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Old 11-20-2020, 05:46 PM   #376
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The fastest way for this to end would be Collins going to McConnell and telling him to end it or she's switching parties.

I needed a good laugh today...
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Old 11-20-2020, 06:06 PM   #377
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Michigan won't work. Neither will most states. Michigan, Pennsylvania and others actually have systems in place to prevent what Trump is attempting.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/20/o...-election.html

The fastest way for this to end would be Collins going to McConnell and telling him to end it or she's switching parties.

Yeah, I don't really get the end game here unless this is totally for the theater of making cultists for life and stringing this out as long as possible. He wouldn't push this hard if it wasn't true!
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Old 11-20-2020, 06:36 PM   #378
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Welp. Thanks for the frequent flyer miles?

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Old 11-20-2020, 07:12 PM   #379
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So sorry, another L!

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Old 11-20-2020, 07:37 PM   #380
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what does with prejudiced mean exactly?
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Old 11-20-2020, 07:40 PM   #381
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They can't file the complaint again. Without prejudice means they can refile the complaint to "fix" whatever the court found was wrong with it.
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Old 11-20-2020, 07:43 PM   #382
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I mean, look at this shit. This is embarrassing. The lawyers are just terrible, it's so obvious this is just done to stall and for political theater so Trump can continue to tweet and Rudy can leak hair dye in front of cameras. Thankfully so far the judges - even the ones appointed by Trump - have done their damn jobs.

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Old 11-20-2020, 07:49 PM   #383
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So at what point can the lawyers representing them be held accountable for bringing these frivolous lawsuits? Is there no repercussions for either the attorneys or the Trump campaign?
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Old 11-20-2020, 07:54 PM   #384
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Federal rule 11(b), typically mimicked by similar state rules, is the mechanism by which attorneys can be held responsible for filing frivolous lawsuits. It's rarely used to begin with, so I don't think there's a chance in hell of it being used here (even though it certainly merits close review).

These are the standards:

Quote:
By presenting to the court a pleading, written motion, or other paper—whether by signing, filing, submitting, or later advocating it—an attorney or unrepresented party certifies that to the best of the person's knowledge, information, and belief, formed after an inquiry reasonable under the circumstances:

(1) it is not being presented for any improper purpose, such as to harass, cause unnecessary delay, or needlessly increase the cost of litigation;

(2) the claims, defenses, and other legal contentions are warranted by existing law or by a nonfrivolous argument for extending, modifying, or reversing existing law or for establishing new law;

(3) the factual contentions have evidentiary support or, if specifically so identified, will likely have evidentiary support after a reasonable opportunity for further investigation or discovery; and

(4) the denials of factual contentions are warranted on the evidence or, if specifically so identified, are reasonably based on belief or a lack of information.
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Old 11-20-2020, 07:58 PM   #385
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Here's another one. I assume these otherwise pretty well-regarded attorneys got paid handsomely to trash their reputations.

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Old 11-20-2020, 08:56 PM   #386
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They can't file the complaint again. Without prejudice means they can refile the complaint to "fix" whatever the court found was wrong with it.
Everything Trump files is....*puts on sun glasses*...with prejudice. WHAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!

Last edited by GrantDawg : 11-20-2020 at 09:00 PM.
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Old 11-20-2020, 08:58 PM   #387
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Lathum, they did in at least one case in Arizona allow the SOS office to recoup legal fees. That is a pretty good slap.

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Old 11-21-2020, 10:35 AM   #388
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On the one hand, the GOP further radicalizing is bad, but on the other hand, it's quite satisfying watching the leopards eat Brian Kemp's face.
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Old 11-21-2020, 10:50 AM   #389
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Although this was written in 1787, this excerpt from "An Old Whig's" essay from The New-York Journal strikes home today.

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"Let us suppose this man to be a favorite with his army, and that they are unwilling to part with their beloved commander in chief ... and we have only to suppose one thing more, that this man is without the virtue, the moderation and love of liberty which possessed the mind of our late general [Washington] - and this country will be involved at once in war and tyranny.

... We may also suppose, without trespassing upon the bounds of probability, that this man may not have the means of supporting, in private life, the dignity of his former station; that like Caesar, he may be at once ambitious and poor, and deeply involved in debt. Such a man would die a thousand deaths rather than sink from the heights of splendor and power, into obscurity and wretchedness."
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Old 11-21-2020, 12:14 PM   #390
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This is fine:
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Old 11-21-2020, 12:38 PM   #391
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Lathum, they did in at least one case in Arizona allow the SOS office to recoup legal fees. That is a pretty good slap.

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But that's directed at the plaintiff, not the attorneys.

I saw some NJ Rep filed Bar complaints against Rudy and a dozen other Trump lawyers in 20+ states. I bet they don't go anywhere.
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M's pitcher Miguel Batista: "Now, I feel like I've had everything. I've talked pitching with Sandy Koufax, had Kenny G play for me. Maybe if I could have an interview with God, then I'd be served. I'd be complete."
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Old 11-21-2020, 02:58 PM   #392
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Old 11-21-2020, 03:20 PM   #393
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All of them should be tried for sedition
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Old 11-21-2020, 03:31 PM   #394
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The interesting thing on this one is that this is just a straight claim the the Pennsylvania law from last year that allowed no excuse mail-in ballots is unconstitutional by the Pennsylvania constitution. They are trying to throw out the whole election in affect.
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Old 11-21-2020, 03:37 PM   #395
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Remember the guys partying in the Trump hotel who said the President didn't ask them to stop the certification in Michigan? Yeah:
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Old 11-21-2020, 03:47 PM   #396
Brian Swartz
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Ironically, they seem to be bent on doing more than I expect any Democrat to do to ensure I vote Democrat going forward. So long as they support this nonsense, it's going to be an easy choice.
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Old 11-21-2020, 04:33 PM   #397
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The PA claim seems like it's too late, right? You can't play a whole game under a set of rules, lose, then complain the rules were unfair. You have to litigate the rules ahead of time
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Old 11-21-2020, 04:40 PM   #398
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The PA claim seems like it's too late, right? You can't play a whole game under a set of rules, lose, then complain the rules were unfair. You have to litigate the rules ahead of time
I would think so, but I am far from a lawyer. I will say reading the complaint, it was much better the Trump teams complaints. Plus it is a clear argument on law, noit throwing rumors at the wall.
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Old 11-21-2020, 04:54 PM   #399
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One thing I have thought: couldn't this full on attack on the election system actually dissuade Trumpers from voting making it seem futile?


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Old 11-21-2020, 06:57 PM   #400
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