NFL Week 8 Discussion Thread: Randy Moss Claimed on Waivers by the Titans

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Perhaps others are more familiar with Moss's skillset other than you?

I think your extreme homerism has sapped all credibility from your Moss/Favre related posts. Nothing personal of course

If a guy doesn't have the skills to go deep, then he's limited to making plays within 20 yards. Check. If you don't want to go over the middle for fear of getting blown up, then you're limited to curl/out/hitch/slant & dive routes. Check.

Jerry Rice was a fantastic possession receiver in his last five years for two reasons - he was able to run routes with extreme precision, and he could use his body to keep DB's from getting to the ball. He had nowhere near the speed he use to have, and everybody knew it. Randy Moss can't do any of these things well...and his production is declining rapidly. I just don't see how you could possibly argue that he's anything other than a one-trick pony with a gimp...a bad possession receiver.

[Pumpy Tudors]

I just heard from an insider that Randy Moss has signed with the Sacramento Mountain Lions of the UFL. Daunte Culpepper to Randy Moss, coached by Dennis Green. Can't wait.

[EagleFan]

Weeks like these really make me miss the NFL Week in Pics...

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

I just heard from an insider that Randy Moss has signed with the Sacramento Mountain Lions of the UFL. Daunte Culpepper to Randy Moss, coached by Dennis Green. Can't wait.

Haha!

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

I think your extreme homerism has sapped all credibility from your Moss/Favre related posts. Nothing personal of course

If a guy doesn't have the skills to go deep, then he's limited to making plays within 20 yards. Check. If you don't want to go over the middle for fear of getting blown up, then you're limited to curl/out/hitch/slant & dive routes. Check.

Jerry Rice was a fantastic possession receiver in his last five years for two reasons - he was able to run routes with extreme precision, and he could use his body to keep DB's from getting to the ball. He had nowhere near the speed he use to have, and everybody knew it. Randy Moss can't do any of these things well...and his production is declining rapidly. I just don't see how you could possibly argue that he's anything other than a one-trick pony with a gimp...a bad possession receiver.

Except you're wrong...Moss can still go deep.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Weeks like these really make me miss the NFL Week in Pics...

[Sun Tzu]

Then why doesn't he?

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

I just heard from an insider that Randy Moss has signed with the Sacramento Mountain Lions of the UFL. Daunte Culpepper to Randy Moss, coached by Dennis Green. Can't wait.

I had to look this up. They also have John Tice on the staff, nephew of Mike Tice.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

I think your extreme homerism has sapped all credibility from your Moss/Favre related posts. Nothing personal of course

If a guy doesn't have the skills to go deep, then he's limited to making plays within 20 yards. Check. If you don't want to go over the middle for fear of getting blown up, then you're limited to curl/out/hitch/slant & dive routes. Check.

Jerry Rice was a fantastic possession receiver in his last five years for two reasons - he was able to run routes with extreme precision, and he could use his body to keep DB's from getting to the ball. He had nowhere near the speed he use to have, and everybody knew it. Randy Moss can't do any of these things well...and his production is declining rapidly. I just don't see how you could possibly argue that he's anything other than a one-trick pony with a gimp...a bad possession receiver.

He has lost a step which no one has disagreed with you. We pretty much all agreed that he wasnt as productive either. What you are missing is that his value is in how defenses play him with allows other players to be more effective. You are just looking at Moss's numbers while the others involved in this debate realize how effective he is at making the players around him better. As someone else mentioned the Vikings and Patriots both averaged more points per game with Moss this year. Ive seen the difference in the Vikings offense when they had Moss as Harvin was an effective reciever, Peterson had more gaps to run through and Favre wasnt getting sacked every other play.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

Then why doesn't he?

He does.

You're talking like he has 0 catches for 0 TDs the last 5 years, and has never run a deep route.

[Sun Tzu]

Nah, I'm talking like he has zero TD catches (or any other catch for that matter) over 37 yards this year, which is the only year that matters right now.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

Then why doesn't he?

The Merriweather PI wasn't a five yard cross.

As I said before, Belichick put safety help on him every play. Why did he do this? Pity?

[lordscarlet]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Weeks like these really make me miss the NFL Week in Pics...

I thought the same thing as soon as Rex Grossman went in the game.

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

Nah, I'm talking like he has zero TD catches (or any other catch for that matter) over 37 yards this year, which is the only year that matters right now.

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

I bet he could have gone for more than 37 yards there against one of the best corners in the game, but you know there was an endzone in the way.

[Mustang]

So, now they are saying he wasn't waived and this might be some Childress power play without approval?

WTF?

[Sun Tzu]

Didn't Revis come out after that play? You know...because he was hurt?

[molson]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

Nah, I'm talking like he has zero TD catches (or any other catch for that matter) over 37 yards this year, which is the only year that matters right now.

So a deep route has to net a 40+ yard gain to be considered a "deep route"? What if you're closer to the end zone than that? If a screen pass yields a bunch of YAC, do you consider that a "deep route"? Football is a tough sport to get a full picture just from individual players stats.

And for some reason, you are still refusing to acknowledge the clear impact on Moss's deep routes to the passing games of the Patriots and Vikings.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Mustang

So, now they are saying he wasn't waived and this might be some Childress power play without approval?

WTF?

Where you seeing that?

[JS19]

Mike Shanahan says Donovan McNabb not in shape for 2-minute drill - ESPN

Has Shannahan gone batshit crazy?

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Where you seeing that?

I've seen it on rotoworld, a few tweets and profootballtalk

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by molson

So a deep route has to net a 40+ yard gain to be considered a "deep route"? What if you're closer to the end zone than that? If a screen pass yields a bunch of YAC, do you consider that a "deep route"? Football is a tough sport to get a full picture just from individual players stats.

And for some reason, you are still refusing to acknowledge the clear impact on Moss's deep routes to the passing games of the Patriots and Vikings.

I don't see Moss making any bigger of an impact by "going deep" to open up the underneath than any other wideout. He use to be able to stretch the field, but now that age has slowed him in multiple aspects of the game, he's just not producing.

It breaks down really simple...like this: The Moss that we use to know wouldn't be where he is now stat-wise, regardless of who was throwing him the ball. Claiming anything else to be true is absurd and ridiculous.

Moss use to be the best "go long" wideout in the business, bar none. Now he's a has-been, who is riding on his own tarnished up legacy to get a job.

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

Didn't Revis come out after that play? You know...because he was hurt?

You still gonna ignore the fact that his teammates and the offenses overall were better when Moss was playing for them? It's just as easy to be a hater as it is a homer.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

I don't see Moss making any bigger of an impact by "going deep" to open up the underneath than any other wideout. He use to be able to stretch the field, but now that age has slowed him in multiple aspects of the game, he's just not producing. The Moss that we use to know wouldn't be where he is now stat-wise, regardless of who was throwing him the ball. Claiming anything else to be true is absurd and ridiculous.

Moss use to be the best "go long" wideout in the business, bar none. Now he's a has-been, who is riding on his own tarnished up legacy to get a job.

Yes, he's not as good as he used to be. I'm just responding to your contention that he doesn't run deep routes. He clearly does. You'll either have to just believe us or get a tape of one of his games from this year.

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by Matthean

You still gonna ignore the fact that his teammates and the offenses overall were better when Moss was playing for them? It's just as easy to be a hater as it is a homer.

"overall better"

How would you quantify that? Other than PPG...which (lets be realistic here) doesn't go very far when looking at 4 games or less. A great team could play a terrible team one week and score 40 points, and then play a better team the next week and score 28 points.

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by molson

Yes, he's not as good as he used to be. I'm just responding to your contention that he doesn't run deep routes. He clearly does. You'll either have to just believe us or get a tape of one of his games from this year.

You're not reading my posts if that's what you're getting. I'm saying he isn't productive as a deep threat...I never said he doesn't run deep routes.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

"overall better"

How would you quantify that? Other than PPG...which (lets be realistic here) doesn't go very far when looking at 4 games or less. A great team could play a terrible team one week and score 40 points, and then play a better team the next week and score 28 points.

What would be acceptable production from Moss at this point in his career, in your view? Like other said, I'm not even sure what you're contending.

The last two years, he's been around 1100 yards, 11 TDs. If he slips a little from that (depends on the offense he's with), and he's around 900 yards, 8-9 TDs, a strong red zone target, a drawer of deep PI penalties, while going deep and stretching the defense, what is that? WR gutter trash?

[jbergey22]

Jay Glazier amd Jason La Canfora are reporting that Moss has NOT been waived.

Perhaps the Vikings are changing their mind and thinking that firing their coach is the better move.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

You're not reading my posts if that's what you're getting. I'm saying he isn't productive as a deep threat...I never said he doesn't run deep routes.

Dude, it was just 21 minutes between when you said it and when you denied saying it -- it's even on the same page!

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

The Merriweather PI wasn't a five yard cross.

As I said before, Belichick put safety help on him every play. Why did he do this? Pity?

Waiting for a response here...

[molson]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

You're not reading my posts if that's what you're getting. I'm saying he isn't productive as a deep threat...I never said he doesn't run deep routes.

First you argued that he was a possession receiver, then in response to a post that "Moss can still go deep," your response was "why doesn't he?"

He's not a possession receiver, and he does go deep. He's a deep threat. Watch the games. You're the only one claiming he's not. Your argument appears to be that in 7 games this year he hasn't had a 40+ yard reception. That's not very compelling.

[stevew]

I think the Chargers would be a good fit if he is actually cut. They have a lot of WR problems, and it seems to be a style that he could thrive in. At 3-5, they aren't out of it yet. I don't think the Chiefs are for real.

[AlexB]

Nice line by random bloke on Twitter:

Note to Pats: Sign Moss just so "Pats trade Randy Moss to Minnesota for a 3rd round pick and Randy Moss" can run on ESPN's ticker.

[jeff061]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Jay Glazier amd Jason La Canfora are reporting that Moss has NOT been waived.

Perhaps the Vikings are changing their mind and thinking that firing their coach is the better move.

From what I read they are reporting he is not on the waiver report today, still could be tomorrow.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

This is the article. It's Glazer.

Glazer: Moss not waived yet, still not informed of move | ProFootballTalk.com

[Sun Tzu]

You took "then why doesn't he?" as me completely changing my argument from "Moss isn't productive anymore" to "he doesn't even bother running deep routes anymore" ???

My god...lay off the drugs. For several pages I've repeated the same argument..."he isn't good enough to be productive deep" but for whatever reason you just can't take that for face value. You have to assign some hidden meaning to it that is somehow, in some way, saying that you as a person don't know the difference between a football and a golf ball.

If you think Moss is no different than he was five years ago, great! You're delusional. If you think Moss this year, which is the only year that matters...not the last two years, not the last five years, not the last 10 years...but this year, is significantly worse to the extent that two teams have already dropped him without thinking twice about it...then you're on the same page as me.

Criminy...I'm not Makiaveli in disguise here.

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by stevew

I think the Chargers would be a good fit if he is actually cut. They have a lot of WR problems, and it seems to be a style that he could thrive in. At 3-5, they aren't out of it yet. I don't think the Chiefs are for real.

I'm sure Rivers would be a great QB for him. *cough*

[jbergey22]

This is from rototimes

Apparently, the Vikings management is not quite sold on cutting the talented but troubled receiver. FOX Sports' Jay Glazer is also reporting that Moss hasn't been waived just yet. The Vikings would now have to let him go by tomorrow's 4 P.M. EST deadline, which would push his claim date back one day. This story is getting stranger by the second. Stay tuned.

[molson]

Originally Posted by jeff061

From what I read they are reporting he is not on the waiver report today, still could be tomorrow.

I wonder if you're allowed to waive somebody when the game week is still going on. With a waiver period of only 24 hours, it would seem somewhat unfair, I guess, to require teams who haven't played their game that week to participate in the same manner as teams who have already played.

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

You took "then why doesn't he?" as me completely changing my argument from "Moss isn't productive anymore" to "he doesn't even bother running deep routes anymore" ???

My god...lay off the drugs. For several pages I've repeated the same argument..."he isn't good enough to be productive deep" but for whatever reason you just can't take that for face value. You have to assign some hidden meaning to it that is somehow, in some way, saying that you as a person don't know the difference between a football and a golf ball.

If you think Moss is no different than he was five years ago, great! You're delusional. If you think Moss this year, which is the only year that matters...not the last two years, not the last five years, not the last 10 years...but this year, is significantly worse to the extent that two teams have already dropped him without thinking twice about it...then you're on the same page as me.

Criminy...I'm not Makiaveli in disguise here.

I'm guessing he wasn't dropped due to production.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

This is the article. It's Glazer.

Glazer: Moss not waived yet, still not informed of move | ProFootballTalk.com

NFL Network just showed a statement from Mosses agent.

They are reporting it is official, though and what happened was Chilly has unilateral control over personnel in his contract and he made the move without telling ownership. apparently they found out through the players.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

If you think Moss is no different than he was five years ago, great! You're delusional.

Nobody's remotely arguing that dude, but if you want to backpedal on the the possession receiver/deep route stuff that people were arguing with you about, that's cool. (If you're just saying he's not productive, that's obviously wrong too. He's not 2007 Randy Moss, no doubt, but even in this lost season, he's still made big plays).

[SirFozzie]

started with the Sports Guy, Bill Simmons. He's good for quips like that. And it's insane that Childress would tell the team he's waiving the player and then not have the player show up on the waiver wire. That's an instant lose-the-locker room moment (if 2-5 means he hasn't lost them already)

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by molson

if you want to backpedal on the the possession receiver/deep route stuff that people were arguing with you about, that's cool.

I'd love it if you quoted me somewhere as saying "I think he's a deep threat, not a possession receiver."

I'll wait.

[Alan T]

The passion/hatred Sun Tzu is showing is something usually found only in political threads around here!


Anyways, I would love to have some insider report explain what actually happened in the Vikings practices this week. Between the way moss behaved at the press conference to pretty much instantly being waived after reminds me of the Moss from his Oakland days.

I would love a clearer understanding of what happened because I was under the impression that Moss -wanted- to be in Minnesota, but everything we've seen this past week doesn't seem to show that at all.

I still stand by my previous comment though that I think the Bills should pick up Moss. That is a team that clearly can't hurt themselves any more by adding a locker room cancer. Even though I do give points to the idea floated in the thread earlier that Moss to Cincy would be the best thing ever from a circuit point of view.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

I'd love it if you quoted me somewhere as saying "I think he's a deep threat, not a possession receiver."

I'll wait.

No, you think he's a possession receiver, and not a deep threat. I've actually already quoted that.

You really want me to do it again? OK.

"I just don't understand why any team would want Moss...just in general. He's become a possession receiver, which doesn't work because he's afraid to get hit. He's terrible with the press, he's terrible (from what I hear) in the locker room and he's lost all perspective on what it's like to not have $80M in the bank. The guy is a walking, talking, breathing joke of a person."

When someone responded that Moss was not, in fact, a possession receiver you responded:

"His longest catch of the year is 37 yards...hell the 49ers backup TE (who has been hurt for half the year) has a longer catch than that."

THEN - when people continued to respond that Moss was not, in fact, a possession receiver, you responded;;

"I didn't know making a one-handed catch disqualified a WR as being a possession receiver. I thought...you know...his production determined that.

My mistake."

THEN - you kind of changed your mind to "he can't go deep""

"Ok so...if a guy use to be a "go long" receiver, but not longer has the speed to "go long," and he doesn't have the cojones to go over the middle and take a lick...what does that make him? Other than unproductive."

FINALLY, when someone insisted, yes, Moss can still go deep, you responded.

"So why doesn't he."

[Sun Tzu]

I prefer the URL route. It would be like watching TNA...but Football. All the faces you remember from 1998 are back, bust just a little older and a lot slower.

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by molson

...

I'm having problems finding exactly where it is in that quote box where I'm backing out of my "he's a shitty possession receiver, but a possession receiver nonetheless" stance...

Unless you didn't pick up on the sarcasm intended for "my mistake."

[jeff061]

Holy christ Sun Tzu, really?

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

Waiting for a response here...

I guess you are a better football mind than Belichick?

[Sun Tzu]

So...the argument on your side is "he's a deep threat that doesn't catch deep balls" ???