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Old 12-24-2007, 01:29 PM   #51
QuikSand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Logan View Post
I've never been much of a dynasty writer, so if I get my own thread, is it cool if I stay brief on the details?

No need to detail anything in particular... I know that I didn't really take any notes with my initial draft-day trading spree, and have no plans to write out much of a dynasty, other than probably keeping the season by season Team Summary printouts.

Please, if anyone is thinking about playing this "challenge" and is just not interested in doing a long, involved write-up... don't be pushed away by that. No pressure to do serious writing, just tell us how it's going.

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Old 12-24-2007, 02:06 PM   #52
korme
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QS, the draft for me took about 3 hours. Interesting approach.
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Old 12-24-2007, 02:39 PM   #53
QuikSand
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I actually wish I had taken a lot longer with it... I *know* that I could have done better given more time. Patience is not a strong suit of mine.
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Old 12-24-2007, 03:20 PM   #54
Ben E Lou
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Quik:

I assume this goes without saying, but it's not really explicit in the rules. The players have to be signed from this class while they are rookies, correct? In other words, no getting to year 5 and trading picks for year 5 players from this rookie class.
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Old 12-24-2007, 03:23 PM   #55
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Hey SD, since the almighty complained and others slightly did in General Discussion, maybe we could make a new forum below the Werewolf and Hattrick forums called One-and-Done challenge? We could have the main section where we could post topics to generate discussion, and also have our private subforums in there too, so we could all be in our own little world and not bother the non-participaters?
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Old 12-24-2007, 03:24 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by SkyDog View Post
Quik:

I assume this goes without saying, but it's not really explicit in the rules. The players have to be signed from this class while they are rookies, correct? In other words, no getting to year 5 and trading picks for year 5 players from this rookie class.

I wondered that too, but I think this covers it in the rules...

Quote:
YOU MAY NOT:
Sign any new player to your team after the first year’s final cutdowns*
(*one exception – worst FA K/P, but only if needed to keep the career alive)
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Old 12-24-2007, 03:26 PM   #57
korme
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Originally Posted by SkyDog View Post
Quik:

I assume this goes without saying, but it's not really explicit in the rules. The players have to be signed from this class while they are rookies, correct? In other words, no getting to year 5 and trading picks for year 5 players from this rookie class.

Right.

I even went with the assumption that you can't trade for rookies in that first year.

For instance, I ran the Change tracker after Year 1's TC, and the Jets had a player they just drafted boom +14. I told myself it wouldn't be fair to trade for a player I didn't even draft/sign.

==

QS, I'm right there with you. In my dynasty, I started writing many paragraphs about each player I was interviewing... as I went on, the paragraphs turned into sentences, which turned into no write-ups. That gets tedious!

BTW, I have found some GEMS in this draft! I am interested to see what kind of monster team we can build after everyone is done and we all see who was successful.
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Old 12-24-2007, 03:27 PM   #58
Ben E Lou
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Originally Posted by Shorty3281 View Post
Hey SD, since the almighty complained and others slightly did in General Discussion, maybe we could make a new forum below the Werewolf and Hattrick forums called One-and-Done challenge? We could have the main section where we could post topics to generate discussion, and also have our private subforums in there too, so we could all be in our own little world and not bother the non-participaters?

I'm not interested in moving the forums because of a little whining. It takes roughly .5 seconds to scroll past the headers in the dynasty forum.


Larry:

Good point. Missed that.
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Old 12-24-2007, 03:30 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Shorty3281 View Post
For instance, I ran the Change tracker after Year 1's TC, and the Jets had a player they just drafted boom +14. I told myself it wouldn't be fair to trade for a player I didn't even draft/sign.

Hmmm....I've already made a couple of post-camp trades.
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Old 12-24-2007, 03:35 PM   #60
Ben E Lou
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DOLA:

Ah...I haven't saved yet. Re-reading the rules, Quik probably didn't intend this:

Quote:
YOU GET:
An empty roster (well, one angry guy who won’t re-sign, but he will be gone soon)
Three years worth of draft picks, including the 1(1) this season

YOU MUST:
Build your team **entirely** from this year’s rookie pool
Set your global options to: cap increase from 60 to 99, injuries set to 100

YOU MAY:
Make any trades you can involving all three years’ worth of picks to acquire draft picks this year
Draft as many or as few players as you like, and then
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Old 12-24-2007, 03:36 PM   #61
korme
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Hmmm....I've already made a couple of post-camp trades.

Well, to each their own. I guess QS' lack of patience hits here too, as he clearly did not get specific enough on the rules!
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Old 12-24-2007, 03:37 PM   #62
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I reverted to the save immediately postcamp. It's pretty straightforward that he didn't mean to do it this way.
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Old 12-24-2007, 04:02 PM   #63
Daimyo
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downloaded the file... hopefull I'll have time to give this a try. Haven't really been able to get into SP yet otherwise.
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Old 12-24-2007, 04:11 PM   #64
johnnyshaka
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Glad to hear that the "deadline" is mid-January as this week is very busy for me and I would've passed otherwise. I'm in!!! Look forward to getting starting with this later this week.
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Old 12-24-2007, 04:24 PM   #65
QuikSand
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Originally Posted by SkyDog View Post
Quik:

I assume this goes without saying, but it's not really explicit in the rules. The players have to be signed from this class while they are rookies, correct? In other words, no getting to year 5 and trading picks for year 5 players from this rookie class.

I am open to any more clear language in the rules, but yes -- you may only sign players during this first season, and only before training camp. After camp, you may never obtain any more players for any reason, other than a fill-in K/P and that only if it's necessary to stay legal with your roster.

Quote:
YOU MAY NOT:
Sign any new player to your team after the first year’s final cutdowns*

I guess I will amplify this -- I'd hate to have any ambiguity lead to someone playing a totally different career than everyone else and "missing" the whole point of the challenge. *shurg*
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Old 12-24-2007, 04:31 PM   #66
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New language added to clarify original intent:

edit: To be as clear as I can here, after your 2008 training camp, you may *never* trade for, draft, sign, or otherwise acquire any new player for your team, with the exception of a kicker/punter absolutely necessitated by injury, and in such a case only the worst-rated free agent. I Hope that is completely clear - that really is the essence of the whole challenge. Miss that, and you're simply not playing the same game the rest of us are.

I hope that helps... it's an obviously huge difference. If you could just go around acquiring all the breaking-out and/or fully developed stars from this draft class over the years, you'd be playing a completely different game.
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Old 12-24-2007, 04:56 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by QuikSand View Post
New language added to clarify original intent:

edit: To be as clear as I can here, after your 2008 training camp, you may *never* trade for, draft, sign, or otherwise acquire any new player for your team, with the exception of a kicker/punter absolutely necessitated by injury, and in such a case only the worst-rated free agent. I Hope that is completely clear - that really is the essence of the whole challenge. Miss that, and you're simply not playing the same game the rest of us are.

I hope that helps... it's an obviously huge difference. If you could just go around acquiring all the breaking-out and/or fully developed stars from this draft class over the years, you'd be playing a completely different game.

In theory though, we could find ourselves at the point where we don't have enough active TEs on the roster, for example, due to injuries. If that should come up, should we also sign the worst rated TE that is at the same level of experience?
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Old 12-24-2007, 05:02 PM   #68
QuikSand
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In theory though, we could find ourselves at the point where we don't have enough active TEs on the roster, for example, due to injuries. If that should come up, should we also sign the worst rated TE that is at the same level of experience?

No.

Part of the challenge is maintaining enough diversity to handle these situations as long as you can. Yes, at some point you will no longer be able to field a legal roster... that is, in part, the idea. Having a few guys on the roster of versatile weight (like a 228-lb FB, perhaps, who could become a TE in this situation, or could become a RB or WR if the situation mandated it) is part of the long-term strategy.

I listed kickers and punters because they are completely restricted in this game -- nobody at any other position (other than P/K) of any other weight can ever be switched to P or K. That would have made it almost necessary for every team to carry a third P/K to be able to handle a retirement or a serious injury... and given that this challenge is already so strict, that seemed too much (upon having this pointed out to me).

As for running out of QB, TE, DE, or anywhere else... you're on your own. At some point every team will suffer enough retirements that they can no longer field a legal team, and then they are finished by necessity.
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Old 12-24-2007, 05:06 PM   #69
Logan
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I'm thru season 1...coaches/scouts are signed for next year, but what should happen when their deals are up? Should we just re-sign them?
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Old 12-24-2007, 05:25 PM   #70
Ben E Lou
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Oops. I figured unsigned FAs after camp were Kosher. Making some cuts now.
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Old 12-24-2007, 06:32 PM   #71
Logan
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Another question...I'm heading into season 3. One of my QBs is refusing to sign his RFA contract because he's pissed about playing time. I'm guessing I have no other choice than to sign another crap QB?
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Old 12-24-2007, 06:48 PM   #72
allpro10050
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any chance i could still get in on this?
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Old 12-24-2007, 07:00 PM   #73
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Another question...I'm heading into season 3. One of my QBs is refusing to sign his RFA contract because he's pissed about playing time. I'm guessing I have no other choice than to sign another crap QB?

I think that means your done, unfortunately.
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Old 12-24-2007, 07:01 PM   #74
JetsIn06
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No.

Part of the challenge is maintaining enough diversity to handle these situations as long as you can. Yes, at some point you will no longer be able to field a legal roster... that is, in part, the idea. Having a few guys on the roster of versatile weight (like a 228-lb FB, perhaps, who could become a TE in this situation, or could become a RB or WR if the situation mandated it) is part of the long-term strategy.

I listed kickers and punters because they are completely restricted in this game -- nobody at any other position (other than P/K) of any other weight can ever be switched to P or K. That would have made it almost necessary for every team to carry a third P/K to be able to handle a retirement or a serious injury... and given that this challenge is already so strict, that seemed too much (upon having this pointed out to me).

As for running out of QB, TE, DE, or anywhere else... you're on your own. At some point every team will suffer enough retirements that they can no longer field a legal team, and then they are finished by necessity.

Here you go, Logan.
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Old 12-24-2007, 07:23 PM   #75
QuikSand
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I guess if you didn't think all this through completely, and have found yourself unable to make it onward, you'll have to use your best judgment on what to do. (In my view, it would be better to just bend the rules slightly than to feel you had to start over completely)

In theory, a meaningful part of this "challenge" is maintaining a legal roster as long as you can. That means having extra guys around (like a 4th QB, or a"flex" guy to cover FB/RB/TE, etc) but also making sure that everyone is willing to re-sign with you (so, keep an eye on everyone's happiness with paying time).

If you're totally in a pinch, you make the call. But in concept, part of the challenge is not to let your team get into this sort of situation. If you've got a guy on the bench who is getting ticked off about being on the bench... you've got to give him some playing time, or else you're going to be short that guy before too long.

This is a special challenge career. It is intentionally both unrealistic and somewhat difficult. Hope it still proves to be entertaining for those playing it through.


I'll go back and add some more "words of warning" to the introductory section, I guess.

Last edited by QuikSand : 12-24-2007 at 07:36 PM.
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Old 12-24-2007, 07:38 PM   #76
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As a fast simmer, I definitely wasn't paying attention to the needs of my 3rd string QB (sim 8 weeks, check the stats to see who needs more time based on production, and proceed). I'll be sure to take it a little slower from now on.

Thoughts on hiring coaches? I went ahead and re-signed by old guys since I'd think we would all want to have the same coaches, as any difference could make a big impact on our results.
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Old 12-24-2007, 07:40 PM   #77
QuikSand
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I figure that with the severe limits on players, we'll need all the flexibility we can get elsewhere. So, use any contracts, renegotiations, and the tag as much as you like. And as for staff and coaches, I think it's wide open to do anything you can there.
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Old 12-24-2007, 07:45 PM   #78
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As a fast simmer, I definitely wasn't paying attention to the needs of my 3rd string QB (sim 8 weeks, check the stats to see who needs more time based on production, and proceed). I'll be sure to take it a little slower from now on.

For what it's worth, my tendency is to try to get any frustrated players some playing time right away at the start of the season, get everyone happy, and then play the guys I need to play down the stretch. With most players, as few as 2 starts will be enough to get them back to content.
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Old 12-24-2007, 08:00 PM   #79
Abe Sargent
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I'd love to be in
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Old 12-24-2007, 11:18 PM   #80
Landshark44
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i'm in.....

been playing with it all night...
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Old 12-24-2007, 11:27 PM   #81
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i'm in.....

been playing with it all night...
Quoted for posterity.
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Old 12-24-2007, 11:57 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by QuikSand View Post
I think it is "cleaner" to just trade away all your draft picks - it keeps your roster screens from being cluttered with extraneous guys, and potentially avoids an "end run" of acquiring rookies to draft for chemistry purposes, if there is any advantage to doing so.

Honestly, I can tell you from my own experience (I have played countless "no draft" teams) - we're talking about an investment of maybe a minute or two of your time once every three seasons. It's not hard to do, just trade your picks away five at a time and demand almost nothing back, it doesn't take any deep thought.


I always do this with a bit more structure if people want to be anal. I count my total draft points and distribute them between the 7 worst teams that year, as best I can. It usually amounts to something like 1 extra third for a given team, not a huge advantage....
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Old 12-25-2007, 01:04 AM   #83
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I kind of decided that if I have to pick someone up to field a legal roster due to massive injuries, or way premature retirements, I'll pick up an UDFA on the opposite side of the ball of what position I need. IE a RDT who I'll switch to a RT, which usually results in a 1/4 type player. Or a SS-> RB

Probably violates the spirit of the challenge, but it seems like a reasonable work-around in an absolute worst-case career-killing scenerio. At least in the first couple seasons.

Last edited by stevew : 12-25-2007 at 02:48 AM. Reason: clarification
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Old 12-25-2007, 02:23 AM   #84
korme
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Not to be an assjockey, but there are reasons why I planned on this sort of thing - I kept 4 QBs, a FB (not required at all), and generally 1-2 extra players at every position. Why field 11 offensive linemen when only 7 are required? Yep, only 7 are required. And it's easier to switch a DT to OL than it is to find some guy who can be swapped in as a QB!

I'm not going to bend the rules a hair, once my team is too injured/retired to compete, I'm done.
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Old 12-25-2007, 02:27 AM   #85
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I was actually contemplating keeping 5 QB's around.
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Old 12-25-2007, 02:30 AM   #86
Landshark44
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i made it to the front office bowl in my third season. i lost 45-38....

on to year 4. one guy is demanding a trade, two disgruntled.....
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Old 12-25-2007, 02:45 AM   #87
stevew
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Just for fun, I decided that I'll be trading my picks to the team in my division with the worst record as they become available to trade.
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Old 12-26-2007, 04:08 AM   #88
Abe Sargent
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Might I recommend an additional score of points for each year you can keep the dynasty going? Otherwise a few early good years and you retire with a blisteringly high winning percentage, which is, by far, the highest input to your score. I think we should encourage people to keep going, instead of calling it a day when their star RB or somebody goes down permanently and they have a high percentage.
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Old 12-26-2007, 04:12 AM   #89
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This draft class blows. Awesome!
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Old 12-26-2007, 05:19 AM   #90
Ben E Lou
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Might I recommend an additional score of points for each year you can keep the dynasty going? Otherwise a few early good years and you retire with a blisteringly high winning percentage, which is, by far, the highest input to your score. I think we should encourage people to keep going, instead of calling it a day when their star RB or somebody goes down permanently and they have a high percentage.

I would hope that people are playing with an eye on keeping the team going as long as possible, but you may have a good point there.


On another note, once we're done with this, it'll be interesting to look harder at the players from this draft class who crept a lot, but were never on our radar screens. I already see quite a few (year 3 now). Looking back at the draft class info on the first few of these, all I can surmise is that, like good players who perform better than their bars at the combines, there are also good players who underperform at the combines, even though they're really better than their bars. I'm not sure there's a way to identify guys in the latter group with any level of consistency, but looking at these guys might be an interesting exercise.
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Old 12-26-2007, 07:02 AM   #91
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Is it too late to join this? I haven't played SP in a long while, I'd love to test myself a bit.. I have plenty of time on my hands for sure.
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Old 12-26-2007, 08:17 AM   #92
Logan
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Might I recommend an additional score of points for each year you can keep the dynasty going? Otherwise a few early good years and you retire with a blisteringly high winning percentage, which is, by far, the highest input to your score. I think we should encourage people to keep going, instead of calling it a day when their star RB or somebody goes down permanently and they have a high percentage.

I might call it quits after 6 years, but it's because I don't think it's mathematically possible for me to have a .200 winning percentage even if I win out until guys retire.

As SD said, I'd think you'd want to play as long as possible to try to achieve the benefit of this challenge (outside of doing the best) and that is to see how player's perform after a number of years where they aren't really starter material. Figure 8 years at the minimum, probably 10. I'll end up playing til the end even if it's boring as hell just because there's very little time that goes into it if you want it to be a quick sim -- it's really just signing extensions in a 2 or 3 year cycle for me.
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Old 12-26-2007, 08:20 AM   #93
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I would hope that people are playing with an eye on keeping the team going as long as possible, but you may have a good point there.

Heh. I just set up my scorekeeping spreadsheet. The issue is that in a given year, the winning percentage makes up 80% or more of the score in almost every scenario. (The lowest plausible is 7-9 with four straight postseason wins--55 of 70 points.) When the rules above are applied to an entire 10-year career of going .500 with no conference titles or bowl wins, you'd get 80 points from the 80 wins, and 50 points from the winning percentage. However, if you score year-to-year, each season gives you 58 points: 50 from the winning percentage, and 8 from the wins. I hadn't thought about that, and I'm sure Quik was intending to apply the scores to the end result.
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Old 12-26-2007, 08:45 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anxiety View Post
Might I recommend an additional score of points for each year you can keep the dynasty going? Otherwise a few early good years and you retire with a blisteringly high winning percentage, which is, by far, the highest input to your score. I think we should encourage people to keep going, instead of calling it a day when their star RB or somebody goes down permanently and they have a high percentage.

Well... let's think this through.

Let's say you scrape by a few years, then get good, and stay good for the career of a good RB, like you suggest. Maybe 3 shaky years, 6 good ones -- you finish 9 seasons winning 12 games in the first three, and then 12 each in the next six -- totaling 84 regular season wins. Let's tack on that you have won 10 of 16 playoff games, with two bowl wins. That equals:

110/176 = 62 points
94 wins
4 bonus points for bowl wins
Score = 160 points

Now, let's say your stud RB retires, and your team suddenly is expected to be not as good. Maybe you're now a roughly 6 win team, out of the blue. (I’m trying to set this up as a really obvious “over the cliff” effect for illustration purposes) So, add on another season of 6-10 football, and where is this team now?

116/192 = 60 points
100 wins
4 bonus points for bowl wins
Score = 164 points

…the gain from winning even a few games still outweighs the modest loss in overall winning percentage. This is an implicit function of a couple of things – the 0-16 season that you are saddled with in calculating your overall win percentage (deliberate) and the expectation that your team will have at least some degree of struggles out of the gate (which sounds like it may not be universal, but I think will be true for most players in this challenge). In just about any ordinary circumstance, even a really obvious “cliff effect” would still not give a true incentive to arbitrarily stop the career and tally up a final score. The scoring system will still reward longetivity.

Hope that helps. I decided to leave in the initial 0-16 season for two reasons – it’s easier to watch when you don’t have to back out those numbers, but also the 16 deadweight losses help to prevent this sort of perverse incentive to preserve a high win percentage.
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Old 12-26-2007, 08:51 AM   #95
QuikSand
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Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Annapolis, Md
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyDog View Post
Heh. I just set up my scorekeeping spreadsheet. The issue is that in a given year, the winning percentage makes up 80% or more of the score in almost every scenario. (The lowest plausible is 7-9 with four straight postseason wins--55 of 70 points.) When the rules above are applied to an entire 10-year career of going .500 with no conference titles or bowl wins, you'd get 80 points from the 80 wins, and 50 points from the winning percentage. However, if you score year-to-year, each season gives you 58 points: 50 from the winning percentage, and 8 from the wins. I hadn't thought about that, and I'm sure Quik was intending to apply the scores to the end result.

[mostly redacted]

It's your *overall* winning percentage, for the whole career, rounded down to an integer. (If anyone wants to suggest a better explanation in the rulesto make this clear, please do)

I tried to make the scoring very simple to pull it all from one place, in-game.

Last edited by QuikSand : 12-26-2007 at 08:54 AM.
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Old 12-26-2007, 09:57 AM   #96
digamma
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Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: On Lake Harriet
Maybe "cumulative winning percentage" captures it?
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Old 12-26-2007, 10:24 AM   #97
QuikSand
lolzcat
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Annapolis, Md
Quote:
Originally Posted by digamma View Post
Maybe "cumulative winning percentage" captures it?

I'm obviously a bad judge. I thought "overall winning percentage" did just fine, but I've edited it to try to be as clear as possible.

I'm still convinced that it's nearly inconceivable that you'd have a situation where your score would be better off stopping than continuing.
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Old 12-26-2007, 10:33 AM   #98
Logan
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Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: NYC
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuikSand View Post
I'm obviously a bad judge. I thought "overall winning percentage" did just fine, but I've edited it to try to be as clear as possible.

I'm still convinced that it's nearly inconceivable that you'd have a situation where your score would be better off stopping than continuing.

Now you're the one with the big dick mentality.

Sincerely,

Guy Whose Team Drops From 2 Wins to 0 Wins in Year 6
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Old 12-26-2007, 11:00 AM   #99
Synovia
High School Varsity
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
SkyDog, can you add me to the private forum? I'd like to start doing this tonight.
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Old 12-26-2007, 11:11 AM   #100
Landshark44
High School Varsity
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Atlantic City, NJ
i quit, already....

it was nice to have a diversion over the christmas break, while the leagues were on hold...

but i just find it a little tedious, re-negotiating 53 contracts in year 4......

and i just got guitar hero, for the wii......

so, i have to rock
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