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Old 02-14-2018, 04:26 PM   #151
tarcone
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My BIL worked about 20 minutes South in another HS. Said this school is in an upper socio-economic area.

It can happen anywhere.
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Old 02-14-2018, 04:32 PM   #152
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I was scrolling Twitter and what I'm guessing was a Snapchat video taken from inside a classroom started autoplaying, with numerous shots ringing out. God almighty.
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Old 02-14-2018, 04:37 PM   #153
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Just another state sponsored shooting. Meaning if the govt gave a fuck, something would have been done by now. Now it's accepted and always someone else's fault.
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Old 02-14-2018, 04:49 PM   #154
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My BIL worked about 20 minutes South in another HS. Said this school is in an upper socio-economic area.

It can happen anywhere.

My nephew goes to college in Tampa but went to high school in Broward. When I told him about today's shooting, his reaction was similar to the reaction I gave my parents when discussing students smoking weed in the bathroom. This is now normalized behavior.
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Old 02-14-2018, 04:49 PM   #155
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Just another state sponsored shooting. Meaning if the govt gave a fuck, something would have been done by now. Now it's accepted and always someone else's fault.

What law did you want passed that this shooter wouldn't break?
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Old 02-14-2018, 04:53 PM   #156
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How about anything that makes progress toward the goal of ending school or public shootings? Anything?
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Old 02-14-2018, 04:57 PM   #157
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The sheriff sure likes the word 'horrific'
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Old 02-14-2018, 05:00 PM   #158
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Do we outlaw violent video games? Those can be part of the problem.
Get rid of violent movies? Those,, also, are part of the problem.

The quote from miami_fan underscores the issue. People are desensitized to violence. And that is a United States thing. This country has always been violent. We treat violence like France treats sex.

Im not sure there is anything you can do. Unless you are able to entirely change the culture of this country.
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Old 02-14-2018, 05:00 PM   #159
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So glad you asked.

It is always hard to talk about specific incidents and I'm not sure it is the best policy to react to specific incidents. But hey, most of us take our shoes off at the airport now!

When you look at it from a broader perspective, the most effective way to reduce gun violence is to have background checks for all gun sales, including private gun sales arranged through the internet or at gun shows. Data shows (and we actually have this because there are about 20 states and DC that have these laws) that background checks for all gun sales reduce gun deaths by up to 50% across the board. This includes suicides, which in many states account for more than half of gun deaths. It includes domestic violence related shootings and it includes officer involved shootings. Would background checks stop every shooting? No, but they have proven hugely effective.

There are lots of other smaller things we can do around permitting and training requirements that also show positive impact.

We can also try to get rid of bad laws like Stand Your Ground laws and Permitless Carry laws which show an uptick in gun deaths.

Or we can do nothing. Offer thoughts. Offer prayers. And keep reading about individual incidents that when added together become a scourge on our nation. We really don't have to live this way. But we choose to do so.
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Old 02-14-2018, 05:01 PM   #160
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Do we outlaw violent video games? Those can be part of the problem.
Get rid of violent movies? Those,, also, are part of the problem.

The quote from miami_fan underscores the issue. People are desensitized to violence. And that is a United States thing. This country has always been violent. We treat violence like France treats sex.

Im not sure there is anything you can do. Unless you are able to entirely change the culture of this country.

This is largely a myth. Kids across the globe play the same video games and see the same movies yet don't have access to guns in the same way Americans do.
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Old 02-14-2018, 05:10 PM   #161
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Old 02-14-2018, 05:17 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by digamma View Post
So glad you asked.

It is always hard to talk about specific incidents and I'm not sure it is the best policy to react to specific incidents. But hey, most of us take our shoes off at the airport now!

When you look at it from a broader perspective, the most effective way to reduce gun violence is to have background checks for all gun sales, including private gun sales arranged through the internet or at gun shows. Data shows (and we actually have this because there are about 20 states and DC that have these laws) that background checks for all gun sales reduce gun deaths by up to 50% across the board. This includes suicides, which in many states account for more than half of gun deaths. It includes domestic violence related shootings and it includes officer involved shootings. Would background checks stop every shooting? No, but they have proven hugely effective.

There are lots of other smaller things we can do around permitting and training requirements that also show positive impact.

We can also try to get rid of bad laws like Stand Your Ground laws and Permitless Carry laws which show an uptick in gun deaths.

Or we can do nothing. Offer thoughts. Offer prayers. And keep reading about individual incidents that when added together become a scourge on our nation. We really don't have to live this way. But we choose to do so.

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Old 02-14-2018, 05:20 PM   #163
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While I applaud it too, I've come to the sad realization that I've seen others make: if it didn't happen after Sandy Hook, it's never going to happen.
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Old 02-14-2018, 05:28 PM   #164
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This is largely a myth. Kids across the globe play the same video games and see the same movies yet don't have access to guns in the same way Americans do.

Even with Americans with access to guns, the violence rate has dropped while the popularity of video games has increased the past 30 years.
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Last edited by NobodyHere : 02-14-2018 at 05:29 PM.
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Old 02-14-2018, 05:33 PM   #165
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Fair point, but relative to peer nations we are away off the benchmark.
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Old 02-14-2018, 05:36 PM   #166
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While I applaud it too, I've come to the sad realization that I've seen others make: if it didn't happen after Sandy Hook, it's never going to happen.

I get the discouragement, but there is incremental progress. Even in 2016 when Trump was elected, four ballot measures across the country related to background checks or permitting passed. In 2017, Virginia voters for Northam ranked gun safety as the #2 issue in the campaign. It's not a taboo issue anymore. There is still a steep hill to climb--the NRA has had a huge head start and financial advantage--but incremental change is occurring (though obviously not at the federal level).
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Old 02-14-2018, 06:54 PM   #167
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Old 02-14-2018, 06:59 PM   #168
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Old 02-14-2018, 08:22 PM   #169
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Maybe our country just isn’t as civilized as we have been led to believe?

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Old 02-14-2018, 08:26 PM   #170
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holy fuck....17 dead. another sandy hook. I really didn't think there'd be such a staggering death count after the early reports.
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Old 02-14-2018, 08:43 PM   #171
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The news is saying that the shooter was an expelled student who had made previous threats against other students.
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Old 02-14-2018, 10:02 PM   #172
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holy fuck....17 dead. another sandy hook. I really didn't think there'd be such a staggering death count after the early reports.

St. Valentine's Day Massacre 2.0 I guess.
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Old 02-14-2018, 10:11 PM   #173
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Looks like we got off relatively easy in KY a few weeks ago. Awful.

My parents lived in Coral Springs for about 5 years in the early 90s. My brother went to Taravella, a HS close by. I remember when Stoneman Douglas opened. This shit is beginning to be like cancer - it's so prevalent, everyone will soon be touched by a mass shooting one way or another.
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Old 02-14-2018, 10:22 PM   #174
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So glad you asked.

It is always hard to talk about specific incidents and I'm not sure it is the best policy to react to specific incidents. But hey, most of us take our shoes off at the airport now!

When you look at it from a broader perspective, the most effective way to reduce gun violence is to have background checks for all gun sales, including private gun sales arranged through the internet or at gun shows. Data shows (and we actually have this because there are about 20 states and DC that have these laws) that background checks for all gun sales reduce gun deaths by up to 50% across the board. This includes suicides, which in many states account for more than half of gun deaths. It includes domestic violence related shootings and it includes officer involved shootings. Would background checks stop every shooting? No, but they have proven hugely effective.

There are lots of other smaller things we can do around permitting and training requirements that also show positive impact.

We can also try to get rid of bad laws like Stand Your Ground laws and Permitless Carry laws which show an uptick in gun deaths.

Or we can do nothing. Offer thoughts. Offer prayers. And keep reading about individual incidents that when added together become a scourge on our nation. We really don't have to live this way. But we choose to do so.

Not sure if its the "most effective" but agree on background checks on gun show and private sales (e.g. there are already background checks needed except in those 2 circumstances I think).

Don't think I agree with getting rid of Stand Your Ground laws. If I understand this correctly, there is no doubt I should be able to shoot any intruder in/outside my house that I think is a threat.

I think its playing the long game. Its educating the younger generation to be more aware of threats, possible threatening behavior, have the frank discussion and show impact of these killings to victim's families.

(It seems this kid threw up a bunch of warning signs and the other kids knew about it. More to come if this was reported to authorities and if & why they failed to act)

Definitely make gun ownership harder to come by (its way too easy). As a law abiding citizen, don't take away my ability to acquire guns but do make sure that I'm law abiding, not mentally unstable etc. and educated & trained to use the weapons.

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Old 02-14-2018, 10:24 PM   #175
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outside my house that I think is a threat.


No.
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Old 02-14-2018, 10:26 PM   #176
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No.

Absolutely.

If I kill a Halloween trick-or-treater by mistake, let me be judged and pay for my crime if found guilty.
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Old 02-14-2018, 10:31 PM   #177
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That does nothing for the dead kid or the dead kid's family.

Outside your home you have way too much chance to be wrong about actions and intentions. I think is a threat is a license to kill for damn near any reason.
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Old 02-14-2018, 10:47 PM   #178
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That does nothing for the dead kid or the dead kid's family.

Outside your home you have way too much chance to be wrong about actions and intentions. I think is a threat is a license to kill for damn near any reason.

Don't dispute that. That is why my comments also included more gun controls, more checks, more education and training.

Will there still be mistakes, yes. Then let that person be judged and pay for the crime.
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Old 02-14-2018, 10:56 PM   #179
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So if I shoot your kid it's all okay because I'll go on trial?

There are a multitude of legal reasons for a stranger to be on your property. You feeling threatened by one of them is no reason to give you a license to kill.
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Old 02-14-2018, 10:58 PM   #180
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So if I shoot your kid it's all okay because I'll go on trial?

Isn't that how the legal system works?
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Old 02-14-2018, 11:05 PM   #181
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So if I shoot your kid it's all okay because I'll go on trial?

There are a multitude of legal reasons for a stranger to be on your property. You feeling threatened by one of them is no reason to give you a license to kill.

If my kid was acting in a threatening manner where you felt justified in shooting, yes.

If it turns out you were wrong, I will enjoy thinking about all the close relations you'll have with other inmates.
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Old 02-14-2018, 11:11 PM   #182
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I can kill your child, but it will all be okay because you'll fantasize about me being raped.

Jesus.
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Old 02-14-2018, 11:12 PM   #183
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I can kill your child, but it will all be okay because you'll fantasize about me being raped.

Jesus.

Its interesting how your logic has progressed on this discussion.

Let's agree to disagree and not waste anymore cpu cycles.
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Old 02-14-2018, 11:12 PM   #184
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Not sure if its the "most effective" but agree on background checks on gun show and private sales (e.g. there are already background checks needed except in those 2 circumstances I think).

Don't think I agree with getting rid of Stand Your Ground laws. If I understand this correctly, there is no doubt I should be able to shoot any intruder in/outside my house that I think is a threat.

I think its playing the long game. Its educating the younger generation to be more aware of threats, possible threatening behavior, have the frank discussion and show impact of these killings to victim's families.

(It seems this kid threw up a bunch of warning signs and the other kids knew about it. More to come if this was reported to authorities and if & why they failed to act)

Definitely make gun ownership harder to come by (its way too easy). As a law abiding citizen, don't take away my ability to acquire guns but do make sure that I'm law abiding, not mentally unstable etc. and educated & trained to use the weapons.

Let's be fair to the authorities. The kid can throw up all the warning signs in the world. We don't take those threats seriously until after the fact. Remember those threats are supposedly just words.

Not really feeling like debating the whole guns thing again. I prefer to get an early start on celebrating some of the heroes.

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Old 02-14-2018, 11:17 PM   #185
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Let's be fair to the authorities. The kid can throw up all the warning signs in the world. We don't take those threats seriously until after the fact. Remember those threats are supposedly just words.

Not really feeling like debating the whole guns thing again. I prefer to get an early start on celebrating some of the heroes.

Reports say Stoneman Douglas assistant football coach stepped in front of bullets | Miami Herald

I wonder how many kids throw up warning signs and how many resources it would take to mitigate them all.
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Old 02-14-2018, 11:19 PM   #186
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Something needs to be done. My libertarian view points on the federal government don’t carry the company line on this shit. I will however point out a huge problem with “they should have prevented it”

I am a middle school teacher and ever since Jonesboro and Columbine I have thought in my head “this kid wouldn’t surprise me” etc. I have probably said this about 10-15 kids over the years. Obviously none of them have shot up the school. What exactly would the solution be? Lock them all up for being weird? I mean we are taking thousands of kids right? Obviously most of these shooters are going to be outcasts and picked on. I just think there is a lot we can do t help them but this falls on the shooter and not the school if they kicked him out and he came back to murder people. Fuck him.
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Old 02-14-2018, 11:56 PM   #187
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Nothing will be done because most of the country does not care. The rest find perverse pleasure in these events because it allows them spew hatred toward others which they revel in.

Sandy Hook was the test. We didn't care that elementary school students had their brains blown out. This isn't even a blip on the radar anymore. It's a sick country with a sick culture. There's no coming back from that.
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Old 02-14-2018, 11:59 PM   #188
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Not sure if its the "most effective" but agree on background checks on gun show and private sales (e.g. there are already background checks needed except in those 2 circumstances I think).

Would you like me to say most proven impact?

It varies by state but private gun sales not subject to background check make up about 35% of gun sales. In Minnesota where I live it is slightly higher.


Quote:
Don't think I agree with getting rid of Stand Your Ground laws. If I understand this correctly, there is no doubt I should be able to shoot any intruder in/outside my house that I think is a threat.

I am not sure if you're stating this correctly. The Castle doctrine has always allowed you to defend yourself in your home. Stand Your Ground extends the Castle Doctrine to any place and eliminates a duty to retreat. In non-Stand Your Ground states, you have a duty to retreat if there is a safe way to escape a threat. In Stand Your Ground States, there is no duty to retreat if you subjectively perceive a threat. What we see in Stand Your Ground states is an increase in gun deaths, no deterrence on crime and a disproportionate impact on communities of color (in terms of increased gun deaths).

Quote:
I think its playing the long game. Its educating the younger generation to be more aware of threats, possible threatening behavior, have the frank discussion and show impact of these killings to victim's families.

(It seems this kid threw up a bunch of warning signs and the other kids knew about it. More to come if this was reported to authorities and if & why they failed to act)

No problem with any of this, but like with video games, we see approximately the same rate of mental illness and other factors as peer nations. It comes back to access.

Quote:
Definitely make gun ownership harder to come by (its way too easy). As a law abiding citizen, don't take away my ability to acquire guns but do make sure that I'm law abiding, not mentally unstable etc. and educated & trained to use the weapons.

Agreed.
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Old 02-15-2018, 12:20 AM   #189
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So glad you asked.

It is always hard to talk about specific incidents and I'm not sure it is the best policy to react to specific incidents. But hey, most of us take our shoes off at the airport now!

When you look at it from a broader perspective, the most effective way to reduce gun violence is to have background checks for all gun sales, including private gun sales arranged through the internet or at gun shows. Data shows (and we actually have this because there are about 20 states and DC that have these laws) that background checks for all gun sales reduce gun deaths by up to 50% across the board. This includes suicides, which in many states account for more than half of gun deaths. It includes domestic violence related shootings and it includes officer involved shootings. Would background checks stop every shooting? No, but they have proven hugely effective.

There are lots of other smaller things we can do around permitting and training requirements that also show positive impact.

We can also try to get rid of bad laws like Stand Your Ground laws and Permitless Carry laws which show an uptick in gun deaths.

Or we can do nothing. Offer thoughts. Offer prayers. And keep reading about individual incidents that when added together become a scourge on our nation. We really don't have to live this way. But we choose to do so.

Seems sensible to me. These are logical, acceptable changes that aren't Ban All Guns type reactions that get nowhere with a good portion of the population.
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Old 02-15-2018, 12:27 AM   #190
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waitwhat? 17 dead? I thought it was 1 dead and 20 injured?
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Old 02-15-2018, 12:39 AM   #191
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Old 02-15-2018, 01:16 AM   #192
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Something needs to be done. My libertarian view points on the federal government don’t carry the company line on this shit. I will however point out a huge problem with “they should have prevented it”

I am a middle school teacher and ever since Jonesboro and Columbine I have thought in my head “this kid wouldn’t surprise me” etc. I have probably said this about 10-15 kids over the years. Obviously none of them have shot up the school. What exactly would the solution be? Lock them all up for being weird? I mean we are taking thousands of kids right? Obviously most of these shooters are going to be outcasts and picked on. I just think there is a lot we can do t help them but this falls on the shooter and not the school if they kicked him out and he came back to murder people. Fuck him.
+1. Very well said.

Early this week they installed intruder door bars in my school. Was not at all taken lightly- strange, awful and scary times...
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Old 02-15-2018, 03:07 AM   #193
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Shocking news. I am not sure a lot of people in the U.S. appreciate how unusual and crazy it seems for your children to be shooting each other to a Western European. Blaming video games is laughable. Look at your gun laws. End of story. Just reading a story about arming teachers in Colorado. Yeah why not give them an rpg too. How about addressing the root cause!

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Old 02-15-2018, 03:12 AM   #194
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18th school shooting this year apparently. In 55 calendar days. With holidays and weekends, that’s basically one every other day. There definitely isn’t a problem though, and nothing can be possibly be done about it.

There needs to be a 10 step equivalent here, but it’s difficult to see how many shootings will need to occur before people see that there is an issue. And nothing will happen until that acknowledgement takes place.
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Old 02-15-2018, 06:22 AM   #195
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My thoughts are that guns caused this and my prayers to God are to get rid of guns.
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Old 02-15-2018, 06:24 AM   #196
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waitwhat? 17 dead? I thought it was 1 dead and 20 injured?

that was the early report. They really knew nothing except that a sheriff and a congressmen said "many casualties". Then it went to 1 and 20....not till many hours later that they actually gave a count.
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Old 02-15-2018, 06:35 AM   #197
CrimsonFox
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Join Date: Dec 2009
This is a report about the shooter.

The stories told by classmates about him are very disturbing...

Nikolas Cruz Named as Alleged Florida School Shooter | Time
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Old 02-15-2018, 07:35 AM   #198
Drake
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Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Bloomington, IN
Even as a gun owner/enthusiast, I'd fully support a system for like the one Canada has.



Long video, but worth a watch if you're interested in what sensible gun control can look like.
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Old 02-15-2018, 07:39 AM   #199
tarcone
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Pacific,MO
How about start by raising our children right? You know, in a 2 parent home.

Maybe teach them the difference between right and wrong?

Teach them there are consequences, both positive and negative.

I would love to see data on gun deaths caused by people that were taught these things compared to those that werent.

It all starts at home.
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Old 02-15-2018, 08:00 AM   #200
PilotMan
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Join Date: Oct 2002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarcone View Post
How about start by raising our children right? You know, in a 2 parent home.

Maybe teach them the difference between right and wrong?

Teach them there are consequences, both positive and negative.

I would love to see data on gun deaths caused by people that were taught these things compared to those that werent.

It all starts at home.
Maybe your 2 parent home sucks.

I'm not sure exactly what you're postulating here other than lets do a better job at raising or kids.

Is it government or societal requirements for 2 parent households? Do we need to take a play from the Amish and shun those who divorce?

Government mandated parenting classes where kids are later examined and if they don't pass the parents are punished?

I can't see you supporting anything like this.

There's a sad fact in aviation that every regulation comes from someone's death. Why can't we get somewhere with the same concept when it comes to guns? Progress has to start with incremental steps. But simply it has to start.
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