The Trump Presidency – 2016

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

If you think Trump is going to go down in flames and you want to jockey for position in the non-Trump wing of the GOP, this might be a good chance.

SI

That's a ship of fools. The GOP isn't going back to something reasonable so soon. This will get worse in 22 and 24.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Ted Cruz has already said the nomination and vote must come before the election. The most punchable face in America has spoken.

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He's on the shortlist for nomination. I talked about doing something to spite the other side for laughs? This would qualify if they nominated him knowing they had the votes to make it happen.

[Galaril]

I think RBG passing away now and pro life pro choice now becoming a key issue in the election benefits Trump and other state races. Even though conservatives hate Trump or say McSally they will now turn out and vote R instead of third party or stay home.

[sterlingice]

Yeah, this will give Trump a boost that makes things uncomfortably close.

Anything that keeps the focus away from the awful COVID response and bad economy is good for him

SI

[JPhillips]

I'll wait for polling, but I'm not sure it will work that way.

Are their a large number of conservative SCOTUS voters not already motivated to vote for Trump?

Will this motivate people on the left that might have been less motivated for Biden?

Will suburban GOP defectors, which skew heavily female, go back to the GOP in order to kill Roe?

Will the pending death of the ACA become a bigger campaign issue?

[Lathum]

There also has to be a portion of voters who see the blatant hypocrisy.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by Lathum

There also has to be a portion of voters who see the blatant hypocrisy.

This

No GOP Trumpist is swayed by this but the middle who thinks of this as pure unbridled hypocrisy will vote in huge numbers for any anti McC and anti Trump candidate.

[ISiddiqui]

Yeah, I just don't see many people who are concerned about the SCOTUS not already being motivated to vote. This is going to help drive liberal turnout as well - as the SCOTUS is going to be 6-3 conservative and the swing vote is no long Roberts, but Kavanaugh.

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[Jas_lov]

They knew the stakes in 2016 and either didn't vote or voted for Jill Stein. I just don't think people on the left care as much about the Supreme Court. Maybe Ginsburg's death awakens them but I doubt it.

[ISiddiqui]

I think the whole Kavanaugh experience and the fact that this is RBG's seat is going to wake a lot of liberal folks up. I have seen a lot of fired up liberals on social media, even those who haven't been super excited about Biden in the past.

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[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I'll wait for polling, but I'm not sure it will work that way.

Are their a large number of conservative SCOTUS voters not already motivated to vote for Trump?

Will this motivate people on the left that might have been less motivated for Biden?

Will suburban GOP defectors, which skew heavily female, go back to the GOP in order to kill Roe?

Will the pending death of the ACA become a bigger campaign issue?

One other factor here: if they ram a nominee through before the election, it makes it a HECK of a lot easier for pro-life folks who also despise Trump (like me) to vote for Biden and would push me much more toward a punish-the-Republicans all Dem vote. You're telling me I can vote full-out against Trumpism AND have a SCOTUS likely to strike down Roe v Wade??? Uh, yeah, sign me up.

(No, I don't believe for one second Dems will have the guts to add to the Court.)

[Ben E Lou]

DOLA...

On the "hypocrisy" front, I don't know that that moves the needle much. Isn't it a given that in the next 72 hours we're going to see multiple videos of Democrats from 2016 talking about how the sitting President's nominee MUST be seated??? I mean, I'm certain that OANN, Fox News, the Daily Caller, etc. etc. etc. have their grunt workers looking through the archives right now as I type this.

I wish someone on either side would have the chutzpah to just say "Bah, I don't give a crap about principles. That big steaming pile I said in 2016 was just to make it look good. All I really care about it getting MY person in!"

[albionmoonlight]

In a less dysfunctional system, this could actually inspire the parties to work together (pause for laughter) To jointly implement one of the several proposals out there to make the supreme court nomination process less high stakes. There are lots of proposals that set term limits for the justices so that each president can appoint the same number.

IBut am under no illusions such a proposal could actually pass.

[Ben E Lou]

Heh. I'm providing a link, but you don't really need to read this article. This little section sums it up:

What do you think McConnell would most like to spend the last stretch of the election calendar talking about? The failed Coronavirus response? Trump’s tweets? Or judges? This isn’t even a question.

Mitch McConnell’s Calculation - The Bulwark

[Brian Swartz]

The difference on hypocrisy is about who has the power to enact it. In both '16 and now, Republicans have control of the Senate so they are responsible. It's similar to how Schumer and Graham (and others) both flipped to the reverse of their positions on witnesses during the Clinton impeachment when it was Trump's impeachment that was on the docket. Both were shameless about it, but in that case each had one turn being on the team in charge. As the GOP discovered on health care etc., it's a lot easier to be a minority in snipe that it is to be in charge and actually do something. The next time Democrats are in charge in the Senate, I'm interested to see how they use that power.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

This

No GOP Trumpist is swayed by this but the middle who thinks of this as pure unbridled hypocrisy will vote in huge numbers for any anti McC and anti Trump candidate.

These people you speak of don't exist.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Heh. I'm providing a link, but you don't really need to read this article. This little section sums it up:Mitch McConnell’s Calculation - The Bulwark

This +1000. This was really the worst-case scenario - guaranteed to get their judge PLUS tighten the presidential race. Putting aside the SC, this makes it that much more likely we will have a protracted fight over who wins between Biden and Trump, IMO. The fact that GOP can talk about anything other than Covid is a huge win.

[JPhillips]

A group of Trumpers showed up at a Fairfax, VA early voting site and blocked people from entering for a bit. Hopefully this isn't the start of something bigger.

[NobodyHere]

That should be a felony

[Ksyrup]

Oops! Kentuckians get voter misinformation from US Postal Service | whas11.com

OOPS!

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

A group of Trumpers showed up at a Fairfax, VA early voting site and blocked people from entering for a bit. Hopefully this isn't the start of something bigger.

It is not voting by mail they oppose. It is voting.

They aren’t hiding it. Anyone who votes against the Democrats this year knows what they are signing up for. The fig leaves of, “I just care about small business” or “I just want things to be fair” are gone.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

A group of Trumpers showed up at a Fairfax, VA early voting site and blocked people from entering for a bit. Hopefully this isn't the start of something bigger.

That might not be entirely accurate:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/19/u...-virginia.html

County election officials eventually were forced to open up a larger portion of the Fairfax County Government Center to allow voters to wait inside away from the Trump enthusiasts.


Election officials said that the group stayed about 100 feet from the entrance to the building and, contrary to posts on social media, were not directly blocking access to the building. But they acknowledged that some voters and polling staff members felt intimidated by what some saw as protesters.

“Citizens coming into and leaving the building did have to go by them,” Gary Scott, the general registrar of Fairfax County, said in a statement. “Those voters who were in line outside of the building were moved inside and we continued operations. Some voters, and elections staff, did feel intimidated by the crowd and we did provide escorts past the group. One of the escorts was the county executive.”

SI

[QuikSand]

I’m Joe Biden and I approve this message. pic.twitter.com/TuRZXPE5xK

— Joe Biden (@JoeBiden) September 20, 2020

L
O
L

[Ben E Lou]

[Ben E Lou]

Many people are saying that someone on the Biden campaign staff deserves a big raise tonight. The biggest. Bigly!

[Thomkal]

Heh great ad

[Ben E Lou]

I keep seeing liberals respond to former Trump voters who are considering voting third party with “a third party vote is a vote for Trump!” Huh??? That only applies if you’re talking to someone who usually votes D. When a Trump voter switches to write-in, that’s a -1 for Trump, effectively a +1 for Biden. When a Trump voter switches to Biden, that’s +1 Biden, -1 Trump, effectively +2 Biden.

[Lathum]

My question would be why aren’t they voting Trump? If he’s that bad don’t they want their vote to have the most bang for their buck to remove him? Otherwise they are just voting third party to feel better about themselves.

[Lathum]

My question would be why aren’t they voting Trump? If he’s that bad don’t they want their vote to have the most bang for their buck to remove him? Otherwise they are just voting third party to feel better about themselves.

[JPhillips]

While standing in front of a teleprompter, Trump tells the crowd that at least they have a President that doesn't use a teleprompter, and the crowd goes wild.

[Brian Swartz]

You can believe Trump is that bad and believe Biden isn't a viable option either. Those are not mutually exclusive concepts. Feeling better about yourself could be said practically speaking of virtually any vote, since the chance that one vote decides anything is vanishingly small.

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

You can believe Trump is that bad and believe Biden isn't a viable option either. Those are not mutually exclusive concepts. Feeling better about yourself could be said practically speaking of virtually any vote, since the chance that one vote decides anything is vanishingly small.

Until enough voters decide that way to reach critical mass and decide things (see Gore, 2000). I'm still regretting my Nader vote 20 years later.

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by Lathum

My question would be why aren’t they voting Trump? If he’s that bad don’t they want their vote to have the most bang for their buck to remove him? Otherwise they are just voting third party to feel better about themselves.

It's a dilemma for many who believe Joe Biden is probably a decent guy and Trump is a despicable human being. Policy wise, they align with Trump. Biden's political philosophy is not acceptable to them. So the question is, do they vote for the guy who is a better human being, vote for the guy who is more representative of their political beliefs, or vote for a third party candidate?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

It's a dilemma for many who believe Joe Biden is probably a decent guy and Trump is a despicable human being. Policy wise, they align with Trump. Biden's political philosophy is not acceptable to them. So the question is, do they vote for the guy who is a better human being, vote for the guy who is more representative of their political beliefs, or vote for a third party candidate?

I dunno man.

If you look and see what Trump has done to this country in 4 years IMO if you are aligning with Trump policy wise you are also OK with the destruction he brings. In 2016 I could see that argument, but we are WAY past the "Trump is a despicable human" at this point. He is flat out destroying our country and you are either OK with it or you aren't.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

You can believe Trump is that bad and believe Biden isn't a viable option either. Those are not mutually exclusive concepts. Feeling better about yourself could be said practically speaking of virtually any vote, since the chance that one vote decides anything is vanishingly small.

Too many people already think a single vote doesn't matter which is why we are in this position in the first place.

Most other elections I would agree with the third party concept, but this isn't most other elections IMO.

If you don't vote Biden you are contributing to Trump winning and 4 more years of God only knows what. It really is that simple this time around.

[Ksyrup]

I'm sick of hearing about "policy" as a reason people may stick with Trump. Trump is not a policy, he's a POS. The GOP owns him; he IS the GOP. Anybody can lead a party on policy. The GOP could have taken every single Trump policy position and pushed it forward under a different person. So me not voting GOP is their fault, not mine. And I'm fine with voting against my own interests because I believe the GOP has allowed the Trump administration to erode our democracy way too far to simply look the other way because my 401K is doing well.

[JPhillips]

White nationalist is gonna white nationalist.

"You have good genes, you know that, right? You have good genes. A lot of it is about the genes, isn't it, don't you believe? The racehorse theory. You think we're so different? You have good genes in Minnesota." -- Trump pic.twitter.com/OiF63qZaKx

— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) September 19, 2020

[albionmoonlight]

I have sympathy for the policy argument.

If you are a moderate conservative or a moderate liberal, then Biden is the easy choice both policy-wise and not-a-White-Nationalist-wise. That's why it's so easy for most of us here.

But if you are far to the right or far to the left, then you have to work through some issues to get there. Trump has a far-right agenda, so if you are far-right, then you agree with him on policy even as you find him distasteful. And why not just vote for the guy you agree with? And if you are far-left, then you have to decide whether to "send a message" to the Dems that you disagree with their moderate choice by withholding your vote.

I think that Trump is such a danger to democracy for reasons outside of policy that everyone should agree to vote against him this year and then reconvene in 2 years to start yelling at each other over Congressional elections.

But I can see why people struggle with that choice.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

I wish someone on either side would have the chutzpah to just say "Bah, I don't give a crap about principles. That big steaming pile I said in 2016 was just to make it look good. All I really care about it getting MY person in!"

And of COURSE it's this guy taking the lead in that direction.

And this is the right response. Stop trying to justify it on any other basis. We didn’t want Obama’s pick and Republicans had the power to prevent it, so we wanted that power to be used. There’s no shame in that. Stop being scared of playing the cards you’re holding.

— Matt Walsh (@MattWalshBlog) September 20, 2020

[Lathum]

Let’s take out the white nationalist far right and who are we talking about? The religious right? 2A? All they need to do is open their eyes. Biden isn’t coming for the guns and Trump is so far from religious.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

I have sympathy for the policy argument.

If you are a moderate conservative or a moderate liberal, then Biden is the easy choice both policy-wise and not-a-White-Nationalist-wise. That's why it's so easy for most of us here.

But if you are far to the right or far to the left, then you have to work through some issues to get there. Trump has a far-right agenda, so if you are far-right, then you agree with him on policy even as you find him distasteful. And why not just vote for the guy you agree with? And if you are far-left, then you have to decide whether to "send a message" to the Dems that you disagree with their moderate choice by withholding your vote.

I think that Trump is such a danger to democracy for reasons outside of policy that everyone should agree to vote against him this year and then reconvene in 2 years to start yelling at each other over Congressional elections.

But I can see why people struggle with that choice.

I agree with this. People do ultimately vote for policies (and against policies) that they value the most - social (e.g. way of life), political, economic issues. Some they agree with, some they don't and they'll have to weigh the pros/cons and consequences. It's not black-and-white and some of the 38-42% will have to internally reconcile to make a decision in addition to the approx 5% of undecideds.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Let’s take out the white nationalist far right and who are we talking about? The religious right? 2A? All they need to do is open their eyes. Biden isn’t coming for the guns and Trump is so far from religious.

Don't forget to add plain old nationalists to the list. There is an overlap of many others who are concerned about the "american way of life" which is not based on ADL-racist dogma.

I'm definitely willing to give on more controls on 2A (it's way too easy) but let's not just say Biden isn't coming for the guns. It's pretty obvious that Dems lean towards much more gun control than many 2A advocates would want.

Even with Evangelical Christians, I do think many put pro-life over much of anything else. It's pretty clear one of Trump's (and McConnell's) legacy is SCOTUS and other judgeships, and evangelicals will certainly rally around that vs all of Trump's other shortcomings.

[PilotMan]

The "American Way of Life" is completely subjective in its definition.

Let's not forget that not that long ago, the controls that Dems were leaning toward now were fully supported by most 2A supporters AND if not for the hard core lobbying and the "nothing is ever good enough, unless we get everything on our wishlist" NRA for corrupting that concept for those same supporters. How many times has one side come to the table with things that the other side has recently supported, only to be told, no those things are extremist, and we will only accept this new thing?

Regarding Evangelicals, their own hypocrisy is laid bare for all to see. They are such "good" people, so much better than you are, and they must ensure that their version of what is best for you and me must be abided by and if their guy isn't as good as they are, and maybe, sometimes, he's willing to be an enemy to some other people, it's ok, because he's been chosen by god. I mean, god was mean to other people too, so it's clearly ok. Christians are literally taught to submit to authority, and that asking questions to that authority was the work of satan, so there you go.

[henry296]

I think the affluent people who want to keep my taxes and capital gains low and think Trump is bad but I want GOP policies group is pretty big. I don't think the majority of them see that as a nationalist policy, just voting for policies that benefit me.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

The "American Way of Life" is completely subjective in its definition.

Not sure "completely" but it is definitely subjective.

Let's not forget that not that long ago, the controls that Dems were leaning toward now were fully supported by most 2A supporters AND if not for the hard core lobbying and the "nothing is ever good enough, unless we get everything on our wishlist" NRA for corrupting that concept for those same supporters. How many times has one side come to the table with things that the other side has recently supported, only to be told, no those things are extremist, and we will only accept this new thing?

I do think there is more of a middle ground for sure. But there are significant differences.
https://www.pewresearch.org/politics...8/10/3_new.png

Regarding Evangelicals, their own hypocrisy is laid bare for all to see. They are such "good" people, so much better than you are, and they must ensure that their version of what is best for you and me must be abided by and if their guy isn't as good as they are, and maybe, sometimes, he's willing to be an enemy to some other people, it's ok, because he's been chosen by god. I mean, god was mean to other people too, so it's clearly ok. Christians are literally taught to submit to authority, and that asking questions to that authority was the work of satan, so there you go.

I agree many are hypocrites (and not just small ones). "God wanted us to have Trump so we should support him. God wanted Obama elected to test us" etc.

[miked]

When Obama and Clinton were president, your guns were not taken away. You could still buy all the guns and ammo you desired. The NRA told you they were to make money, but realistically all the dems want to push is what 80-90% of people support! It's the single dumbest argument in America and the epitome of what foreigners see as American stupidity.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by miked

When Obama and Clinton were president, your guns were not taken away. You could still buy all the guns and ammo you desired. The NRA told you they were to make money, but realistically all the dems want to push is what 80-90% of people support! It's the single dumbest argument in America and the epitome of what foreigners see as American stupidity.

Sure gun rights were not take away but did Obama/Clinton or Democratic party try?

Just to reiterate my position again, I'm all for additional controls. But it's not without cause that many 2A advocates think many are trying to chip away their rights.

400 Bad Request.

On January 16, 2013, President Obama announced a plan for reducing gun violence in four parts: closing background check loopholes; banning assault weapons and high-capacity magazines; making schools safer; and increasing access to mental health services.[16][17]:2 The plan included 23 executive actions, signed immediately by the president, and 12 proposals for Congress.[18]

[PilotMan]

Well thank god that the republicans once again saved us from tyranny.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

And of COURSE it's this guy taking the lead in that direction.

And this is the right response. Stop trying to justify it on any other basis. We didn’t want Obama’s pick and Republicans had the power to prevent it, so we wanted that power to be used. There’s no shame in that. Stop being scared of playing the cards you’re holding.

— Matt Walsh (@MattWalshBlog) September 20, 2020

I am assuming you were waiting for a public figure because the conservatives that I know have been saying this from the time the news of RBG's passing.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

I have sympathy for the policy argument.

If you are a moderate conservative or a moderate liberal, then Biden is the easy choice both policy-wise and not-a-White-Nationalist-wise. That's why it's so easy for most of us here.

But if you are far to the right or far to the left, then you have to work through some issues to get there. Trump has a far-right agenda, so if you are far-right, then you agree with him on policy even as you find him distasteful. And why not just vote for the guy you agree with? And if you are far-left, then you have to decide whether to "send a message" to the Dems that you disagree with their moderate choice by withholding your vote.

I think that Trump is such a danger to democracy for reasons outside of policy that everyone should agree to vote against him this year and then reconvene in 2 years to start yelling at each other over Congressional elections.

But I can see why people struggle with that choice.

I can't. Because the only people who see Trump, at worst, as simply "distasteful" are the same people who thought Obama was (did!) destroy America. And that's not living in reality. He was a Democrat President. He did Democrat things and the media underplayed some of the bad stuff. But he didn't take down our country.

So if you're in that mindset - and unfortunately, way too many people are - then yes, it's a tough choice. But it's also living in fantasyland.