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Old 04-21-2015, 08:07 AM   #201
cheekimonk
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Originally Posted by JAG View Post
That makes no sense to me. It feels good even though you misunderstood?

Ok. It doesn't feel any worse than anyone I have a gut feel on. Some folks I have nothing one way or the other. Some folks I feel are on the radar though they haven't tipped village or wolf yet. It's a long D1.
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Old 04-21-2015, 08:14 AM   #202
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The surety of Vaimes being town is one reason I have for this vote.
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Old 04-21-2015, 08:47 AM   #203
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I don't think that anyone who dukes out of being lynched should immediately get suspicion either. There is a better chance it is just a villager duke than a wolf duke.

But ... but ... we're presumably voting for someone because we think there's more chance than average that that person is a wolf. Them duking that vote away doesn't suddenly make those doubts go away. So, no, they shouldn't get MORE suspicion (unless they vote to a random) but as the suspicion they were getting was enough to get them lynched then it only seems right that they should be killed, barring a radical change in data (for example information from the seer). In a normal game the value of the duke is almost exclusively in creating a cleared villager. In this game it doesn't have that value.

So if you feel that accelerated lynching is the way forward and you're a duke then duke it to the next vote-getter. If you don't think that, don't use your duke at all. My guess is every duke will be using it hoping that they hit a wolf.
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Old 04-21-2015, 08:49 AM   #204
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Agree with Jag on the pinginess of what Cheeki said and did. I suspect it might be a confused villager rather than a wolf play but that's always difficult to judge.
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Old 04-21-2015, 08:54 AM   #205
timmae
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Just checking in before leaving for meetings today. I haven't seen a reason to switch up my vote as of yet. Jackal seems "off" but I am not reading evil. Lacking further evidence elsewhere I will keep my vote on him. I like that bug is around and hope to see more of his thoughts. I am reading good font this game. Not quite as abrasive but her tone is similar to what I have seen from good font. She seemed more helpful as neutral/evil in the rebirth game.
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Old 04-21-2015, 09:04 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by Narcizo View Post
But ... but ... we're presumably voting for someone because we think there's more chance than average that that person is a wolf. Them duking that vote away doesn't suddenly make those doubts go away. So, no, they shouldn't get MORE suspicion (unless they vote to a random) but as the suspicion they were getting was enough to get them lynched then it only seems right that they should be killed, barring a radical change in data (for example information from the seer). In a normal game the value of the duke is almost exclusively in creating a cleared villager. In this game it doesn't have that value.

So if you feel that accelerated lynching is the way forward and you're a duke then duke it to the next vote-getter. If you don't think that, don't use your duke at all. My guess is every duke will be using it hoping that they hit a wolf.


It sounded like we were getting to the point where it would be a foregone conclusion we would lynch the person who duked the day before. I am not sure if that is always going to be the right play.(I know that we won't always do that but it just doesn't seem smart.)
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Old 04-21-2015, 09:06 AM   #207
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Just checking in before leaving for meetings today. I haven't seen a reason to switch up my vote as of yet. Jackal seems "off" but I am not reading evil. Lacking further evidence elsewhere I will keep my vote on him. I like that bug is around and hope to see more of his thoughts. I am reading good font this game. Not quite as abrasive but her tone is similar to what I have seen from good font. She seemed more helpful as neutral/evil in the rebirth game.

I couldn't disagree with you more. While I dont trust my own instincts in this game yet, font does not sound like usual font to me. Confident, aggressive villager font would not (in my mind) suggest everyone reveal their duke/hunter affiliations. I realize she was asking a question about it, but putting the idea out there feels like an evil play.

I'm not ready to back up my statement with a vote, I could very well be 180 degrees off target here.
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Old 04-21-2015, 09:06 AM   #208
cheekimonk
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Originally Posted by Narcizo View Post
My guess is every duke will be using it hoping that they hit a wolf.

FWIW, I'm village and I wouldn't duke out of a lynch. Not going to duke someone out of a lynch, either. Just not enough info for more than hunches on D1 and I'm still too green to trust those too much.
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Old 04-21-2015, 09:07 AM   #209
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FWIW, I'm village and I wouldn't duke out of a lynch. Not going to duke someone out of a lynch, either. Just not enough info for more than hunches on D1 and I'm still too green to trust those too much.


Okay you hunter
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Old 04-21-2015, 09:32 AM   #210
fontisian
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I've actually got town reads on Vaimes, Jackal, Cheeki and Narc, do let's not lynch in that group.

There's a good chance JAG is scum, but I'm going to give him a break for toDay and see if he turns out useful.

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Old 04-21-2015, 09:36 AM   #211
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Oh, timmae's also on the possible scum I'm watching but would feel bad (but not that bad) about lynching for his tryhardiness.
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Old 04-21-2015, 09:48 AM   #212
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Anyone have a vote count?
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Old 04-21-2015, 09:49 AM   #213
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My initial thoughts after reading the roles were to try and set guidelines that we could get a general consensus on in the thread without revealing factions, primarily in terms of when hunters should use their kills .. but I think it's going to be too much of a clusterf*ck to try and organize that.
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Old 04-21-2015, 09:51 AM   #214
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I can see merit in what Narcizo was proposing about a hunter using their kill on a duke that dukes to a village hunter, but I also have a nagging suspicion that it will be much easier for wolves to avoid poor votes (or what would look poor in retrospect a few days later) with 1-2 dukes in their pocket.
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Old 04-21-2015, 09:52 AM   #215
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And there's always the rogue factor. Plenty of hunters and dukes have made questionable plays in other games when there was a game-wide one-time use..
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Old 04-21-2015, 09:56 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by Narcizo View Post
the clever thing about the rules is that for every duke that's killed the hunters' power becomes less potent (as there's more chance of a hunter hitting another hunter with a day-kill), while the duke's power becomes more useful.

The same would be true for hunters if we prioritized killing them, too.
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Old 04-21-2015, 09:57 AM   #217
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Is there any merit to having everyone claim Hunter or Duke?

It'd basically ruin the minor VC that's in play.
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Old 04-21-2015, 09:59 AM   #218
The Jackal
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It'd basically ruin the minor VC that's in play.

And, assuming full disclosure, would rule out a wolf duke/hunter killing themselves by hitting their own faction. I'd rather have that be a possibility to f with their decision making.
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Old 04-21-2015, 10:00 AM   #219
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It's a higher risk strategy than playing it safe because it accelerates our timeline required to win though. We'll get more information per lynch, but have fewer total showdowns.

Quick thought to add to this: is there any suspicion that the wolves might have amped-up or tamped-down versions of duke/hunter powers, rather than the standard powers that most of us have? The rules do reference some quirks...
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Old 04-21-2015, 10:00 AM   #220
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Some of the certainty people are showing towards others allegiances on D1 in the last few games has been kind of astounding, to me
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Old 04-21-2015, 10:01 AM   #221
britrock88
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I don't think that anyone who dukes out of being lynched should immediately get suspicion either.

It's more about information (read: vote tallies) than suspicion, per se.
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Old 04-21-2015, 10:02 AM   #222
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but I also have a nagging suspicion that it will be much easier for wolves to avoid poor votes (or what would look poor in retrospect a few days later) with 1-2 dukes in their pocket.

I'm not following you. Why would it be easier than usual for them to avoid "poor votes"? What difference do the dukes make?
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Old 04-21-2015, 10:02 AM   #223
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Quick thought to add to this: is there any suspicion that the wolves might have amped-up or tamped-down versions of duke/hunter powers, rather than the standard powers that most of us have? The rules do reference some quirks...

I donno, with a cunning and brutal and 6 items, there's a lot of different scenarios that could play out without the wolf team having any other bonuses. Do you have any ideas about what that would look like? I think most of the unknown stuff for this game will be in relation to order of actions if there are conflicting ones.
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Old 04-21-2015, 10:03 AM   #224
Narcizo
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Some of the certainty people are showing towards others allegiances on D1 in the last few games has been kind of astounding, to me

I read it as hyperbole. Danny did it a lot as well.
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Old 04-21-2015, 10:05 AM   #225
The Jackal
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I'm not following you. Why would it be easier than usual for them to avoid "poor votes"? What difference do the dukes make?

"Poor" in terms of votes that we'd normally look at as avoidance, once we know people's allegiances, especially once we (hopefully) nab the first wolf. On D1/D2 they don't have to be as careful about not voting each other or staying away from runs, or pushing other candidates.

Now, this is definitely dependent on which wolf would be in the running because if a wolf duke who wasn't in the vote had to use their power, that'd certainly look suspicious.

Mostly I was just saying that I don't think vote analysis will be as useful as it is in other games. As we move on in the game yes, it'll become better - but not necessarily early on.
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Old 04-21-2015, 10:05 AM   #226
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Some of the certainty people are showing towards others allegiances on D1 in the last few games has been kind of astounding, to me

Ditto.

That's the reason for my vote on font. She is so sure on Vaimes being a villager. Either she has a tell on him that none of us know, or she's blowing smoke up our collective butts.

I feel like it's impossible to be 100% certain on Day 1.
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Old 04-21-2015, 10:07 AM   #227
fontisian
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Grover: 1. Vaimes is a close friend irl.
2. I've had just a strong a townread on him last game.
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Old 04-21-2015, 10:08 AM   #228
The Jackal
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I read it as hyperbole. Danny did it a lot as well.

Maybe. But it's also kind of distracting - hyperbole is one thing, trying to push others away from voting certain people D1 is another. Not saying it's coming from wolves, necessarily, just feels muddy and strange.
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Old 04-21-2015, 10:09 AM   #229
The Jackal
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Unvote Grover
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Old 04-21-2015, 10:10 AM   #230
Narcizo
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Well I think that you worries are what my hunter kill the duke scheme would take care of. It basically take the problem of duking out of the game by gauranteeing the death of the duke (particular if the duke is used to save someone else).

I can see situations where the wolves might be able to duke for someone else towards end game so we better make sure we catch some wolves before we get to that stage.
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Old 04-21-2015, 10:11 AM   #231
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I think Shoveler has been pretty helpful, so definitely avoiding him D1. I've been off on my read of cheek in multiple games so I'm not going to get into reading his D1 comments at this point either because I don't trust myself with him.
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Old 04-21-2015, 10:12 AM   #232
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Well I think that you worries are what my hunter kill the duke scheme would take care of. It basically take the problem of duking out of the game by gauranteeing the death of the duke (particular if the duke is used to save someone else).

I can see situations where the wolves might be able to duke for someone else towards end game so we better make sure we catch some wolves before we get to that stage.

Best laid plans could be shot to shit by items as well, though. I'd also think you'll find some hunters hesitant to blow their ability early in the game, especially with items out there that can stop it.
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Old 04-21-2015, 10:14 AM   #233
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Maybe. But it's also kind of distracting - hyperbole is one thing, trying to push others away from voting certain people D1 is another. Not saying it's coming from wolves, necessarily, just feels muddy and strange.

Well that depends - maybe on day one but day two I, for example, pushed quite hard to not lynch Eagle last game. I prefer that people come out with this stuff rather than not say anything at all as it reveals possible connections and allegiances. And it tends to engender discussion and activity. Obviously I'm not saying that it's always good but rather that than people posting "quiet day today" all the time. Wear your heart on your sleeve and all that.
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Old 04-21-2015, 10:14 AM   #234
The Jackal
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Truth, I'd always rather see it more active!
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Old 04-21-2015, 10:15 AM   #235
fontisian
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Maybe. But it's also kind of distracting - hyperbole is one thing, trying to push others away from voting certain people D1 is another. Not saying it's coming from wolves, necessarily, just feels muddy and strange.
If you're going to talk to me, then talk to me.

I'm confident enough in my town reads to state them and try to give them some protection toDay. That's a pretty low bar. What precisely is your issue with it?

More to the point, why exactly are you unvoting Grover when his vote is based on something that did not bother him in the past couple ganes?
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Old 04-21-2015, 10:19 AM   #236
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If you're going to talk to me, then talk to me.

I'm confident enough in my town reads to state them and try to give them some protection toDay. That's a pretty low bar. What precisely is your issue with it?

More to the point, why exactly are you unvoting Grover when his vote is based on something that did not bother him in the past couple ganes?

Why do you guys capitalize the D and M in today and tomorrow, by the way?

And it's not just you, but yes, you do seem to come out with strong reads on D1. And I'm saying this even with you reading me as town - I find it hard to get strong reads early so maybe that's just something I need to get better at.

It'd also be one thing for you saying Vaimes is town if we knew you were good - but we have no idea what allegiance you are, so it's mostly empty words. But certainly good to know your thought process.

As far as unvoting Grover, I never intended my vote to stay there and I don't mind the posts I've seen from him thus far. Seems a little different than when he was a wolf, though maybe he's just learning
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Old 04-21-2015, 10:27 AM   #237
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Old 04-21-2015, 10:30 AM   #238
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Grover: 1. Vaimes is a close friend irl.
2. I've had just a strong a townread on him last game.

Okay.

I consider Jackal a good friend. I don't go out making bold claims that someone is village/otherwise based on my relationship with a player outside of the game.

2. This is a new game. Maybe it's a similar read in his play style, fine. I just find the completely certainty strange. That's just me.
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Old 04-21-2015, 10:34 AM   #239
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I'm just a purist when it comes to playing a game and I find it head scratching when people invoke reasons outside of a game for something or another
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Old 04-21-2015, 10:40 AM   #240
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Grover I will say that one difference in me and you vs font and vaimes is that it seems they've played WW together a lot, so it makes a little more sense that they'd be able to read each other. But I still struggle with what to make of that info on D1.
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Old 04-21-2015, 10:41 AM   #241
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Grover I will say that one difference in me and you vs font and vaimes is that it seems they've played WW together a lot, so it makes a little more sense that they'd be able to read each other. But I still struggle with what to make of that info on D1.

Oh, I've taken that into account. Clearly if you're playing against someone on a weekly basis, you're going to eventually have a decent read on them.
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Old 04-21-2015, 10:48 AM   #242
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Oh, I've taken that into account. Clearly if you're playing against someone on a weekly basis, you're going to eventually have a decent read on them.
No, you clearly haven't.

If you really have a problem with my ability to read Vaimes, why didn't you say something in any of our prior games?
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Old 04-21-2015, 10:49 AM   #243
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More to the point, why exactly are you unvoting Grover when his vote is based on something that did not bother him in the past couple ganes?

By this do you mean that he didn't vote you because of a townread on Vaimes in previous D1's? I'd have to go back and look, but I feel like I wasn't the only one struck by that.

I'm not at the point where I want to vote you over it, and like I said before I'm interested in seeing everyone's thought process because it forces wolves to make up reasons for voting people, but I know that I'm slightly turned off by early D1 town reads.
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Old 04-21-2015, 10:51 AM   #244
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Seems like we've heard at least a little bit from everyone? Good start.
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Old 04-21-2015, 10:52 AM   #245
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No, you clearly haven't.

If you really have a problem with my ability to read Vaimes, why didn't you say something in any of our prior games?

Because my logic can be as screwed up as I want it to be.

And because I hadn't noticed it as ardently as this time around.
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Old 04-21-2015, 11:19 AM   #246
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Just checked in and saw game is on. For some reason Gmail buried my notification. Catching up now ...
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Old 04-21-2015, 11:22 AM   #247
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And, assuming full disclosure, would rule out a wolf duke/hunter killing themselves by hitting their own faction. I'd rather have that be a possibility to f with their decision making.

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Old 04-21-2015, 11:23 AM   #248
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Some of the certainty people are showing towards others allegiances on D1 in the last few games has been kind of astounding, to me

Indeed. Seems to be a matter of personal playstyle, though.
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Old 04-21-2015, 11:24 AM   #249
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Anyone have a vote count?

Morning folks!

I will have a vote count up shortly.
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Old 04-21-2015, 11:29 AM   #250
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No, you clearly haven't.

If you really have a problem with my ability to read Vaimes, why didn't you say something in any of our prior games?

I think he was a wolf last time... Alignment can often affect reactions to common WW themes/discussions/actions, of course.

For instance, I understand the way you present D1 reads and interact with Vaimes and would call your townread of Vaimes alignment-neutral.

Grover, who, as you pointed out, didn't react to the above in the previous game, where he was a wolf, is now pinged by this. Seems better than neutral to me.
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