Iraq - New Norm, Elections

[Edward64]

There's differing opinions on Iraq etc. but I do think its amazing, all things considered, that we now have peaceful provincial 6 years after the war.

Peace rules as polls close in Iraq - CNN.com

"There is a new norm of politics. ... It is truly a proud moment," Iraqi Deputy Prime Minister Barham Saleh told CNN. "The distance that we have come is truly inspiring."

4,000 women run for office in Iraq - CNN.com

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Four thousand women are running for office in Iraq's provincial elections Saturday, and many of them will be guaranteed seats under an electoral quota system.

Iraq election hailed as 'great success' - Conflict in Iraq- msnbc.com

BAGHDAD - Iraqis held their most peaceful election since the fall of Saddam Hussein on Saturday, and voting for provincial councils ended without a single major attack reported anywhere in the country.

• It was only 1+ year ago, pre-surge when the majority of Americans thought it was lost.

Not sure if it means anything for the future, others will continue to doubt if it was worth it (I like to believe it was) and I am sure there are challenges ahead etc.

... but in this one moment of time I just want to say

• Damn good save US Army et al.
• Thanks for sticking to it GWB (in this particular situation); you are screwed in the history books but this might be one beacon of light that history will remember you well of.
• Iraqis, as the cradle of civilization I wish you the best, here is your opportunity if you want it.

[Dutch]

Cautiously optimistic.

When the anger that the Iranian, Saudi Arabian and Syrian govts have with Iraq has fully converted from fear into veiled jealousy, then you know the Iraqi people are truly free.

Still a few hurdles to clear, but I think the dirty work has been done. Iraq's mission is about sustainment and progress now.

[EagleFan]

Wow, the world is changing with Obama as President...

What next? Kim Jong-il will realize that he is holding his people back and off himself, leaving step by step instructions on freeing his people and improving the country...

[EagleFan]

dola: forgot to add

[DanGarion]

Hilarious. These stories would have been completely slanted a different direction if GWB was still in office... (IMO).

[SirFozzie]

It's good news.

Doesn't change the fact we should never have been there in the first place, mind you.. but hopefully Iraq will continue to get better.

[Anthony]

not once when you read these things will you ever hear an Iraqi say "and this would never have been possible without the sacrifice of the Americans and their armed forces."

and because of that i openly wish for another dictator overtakes their country and throws them into another few decades of no liberties so they could see what life is like when the Americans don't give a shit.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Anthony

not once when you read these things will you ever hear an Iraqi say "and this would never have been possible without the sacrifice of the Americans and their armed forces."

and because of that i openly wish for another dictator overtakes their country and throws them into another few decades of no liberties so they could see what life is like when the Americans don't give a shit.

To the Obama comments above, seriously I don't think there is any inference that this was Obama's influence ... albeit, GWB didn't seem to be given the credit either.

Korea is pretty interesting. Wonder how Obama is going to deal with a real madman.

Anthony. If it works out, I think you will be hearing stuff like that in the next 5 yrs or so ... they are still shell shocked with the war, all the sectarian strife etc. Hopefully it is the new norm but I don't think its quite sunk in yet. Give em time and lets see if they are ingrates.

[Klinglerware]

I would say that violence levels in Iraq turned around when Sunnis, tired of the insurgent violence, decided to take security in their own hands and form militias of their own to combat the insurgents. These were not US created, but the US decided to bankroll them.

The Shiite majority government distrusts these "awakening" groups (though they do see the short-term security benefits of these groups fighting the insurgents, and are bankrolling them as well). The question now is whether the Sunni awakening groups will actually ever disband. The Shiite's are afraid that, long-term, this will give the Sunni opposition a para-military lever, outside of national government control.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

It's good news.

Doesn't change the fact we should never have been there in the first place, mind you.. but hopefully Iraq will continue to get better.

What he said

SI

[Edward64]

Oh well, I would have hoped/thought a larger percentage.

FOXNews.com - Iraqi Election Turnout in Line With Predictions - International News | News of the World | Middle East News | Europe News

Officials say between 55 and 60 percent of voters cast ballots throughout the country. That roughly matches what was predicted before Saturday's vote to select the influential regional councils.

The turnout was about 60 percent in the provinces of Ninevah and Diyala north of Baghdad, as well as Najaf in the south. In Basra, it was about 55 percent.

On the other hand, if the below is true ... good news.

Iraqi election hints of troubles for Shiite group - Conflict in Iraq- msnbc.com

BAGHDAD - The biggest Shiite party in Iraq once appeared to hold all the political sway: control of the heartland, the backing of influential clerics and a foot in the government with ambitions to take full control.

But the days of wide-open horizons could be soon ending for the Supreme Islamic Iraqi Council, and replaced by important shifts that could be welcomed in Washington and scorned in Tehran.

The signs began to take shape Sunday with hints of the voter mood from provincial elections.

The broad message — built on Iraqi media projections and postelection interviews — was that the eventual results would punish religious-leaning factions such as the Supreme Council that are blamed for stoking sectarian violence, and reward secular parties seen capable of holding Iraq's relative calm.

Although official results from Saturday's provincial elections are likely still days away, the early outlines are humbling for The Supreme Council. The group had been considered a linchpin in Iraqi politics as a junior partner in the government that had near seamless political control in the Shiite south.

Some forecasts point to widespread losses for the party across the main Shiite provinces. The blows could include embarrassing stumbles in the key city of Basra and the spiritual center of Najaf — hailed as the future capital in the Supreme Council's dreams for an autonomous Shiite enclave.

In their place, the big election winners appear to be allies of Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, according to projections and interviews with political figures who spoke on condition of anonymity because official results are not posted.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

I would say that violence levels in Iraq turned around when Sunnis, tired of the insurgent violence, decided to take security in their own hands and form militias of their own to combat the insurgents. These were not US created, but the US decided to bankroll them.

Despite what one heard during the Presidential campaign, it was this, plus Muqtada Al-Sadr's self-imposed ceasefire, plus the increase of U.S. troops in specific areas, which turned back the violence (the impact of each listed in decreasing order). That's how history will record it.

[astrosfan64]

Say what you want, but if in 20 years Iraq is peaceful, thriving democracy and a US Ally, similiar to South Korea. George Bush will go down as a great president.

Whether we went in there in false pretense or not, Sadaam needed to go. How anyone could argue that is beyond me.

[Big Fo]

Originally Posted by astrosfan64

Say what you want, but if in 20 years Iraq is peaceful, thriving democracy and a US Ally, similiar to South Korea. George Bush will go down as a great president.

No way. His numerous other mistakes will still be remembered. The best GWB can hope for is slightly worse than average.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Big Fo

No way. His numerous other mistakes will still be remembered. The best GWB can hope for is slightly worse than average.

Yeah. Iraq can save him from bottom 5 status, but not too much more than that. He'll be remembered for the debates on torture, Abu Ghirab, Hurricane Katrina, the economy, etc.

And, of course, he was so bad that America said "Hey, let's try a black guy" .

[sterlingice]

Infringing on civil rights and destruction of the Constitution, turning a surplus into a giant deficit, long term reduction and damage to the middle class, extreme cronyism...

Wait, that's not what this thread was about.

SI

[flere-imsaho]

If, in 20 years, Iraq is an ally and a peaceful, thriving democracy like South Korea, it'll be due to much, much more than Bush's decision to invade, especially considering that the hurdles that South Korea faced are nothing like those that Iraq faces.

In fact if, in 20 years, Iraq is an ally and a peacful, thriving democracy like South Korea, I'd imagine the largest contributing factor will be a considerably different power structure in the Middle East unrelated to the U.S. invasion and deposition of Hussein. And honestly, I don't see that happening. Well, I don't see that happening in the next 20 years, that is.

[astrosfan64]

Not to turn this thread into a George Bush debate. Katrina was as much if not more to blame on the state of LA. The housing crisis and financial market issues go back all the way to the Carter age. He isn't the only president to blame, just the last one.

I think Bush will go down as an average president when all is said and done. I'm excited for Obama and I haven't voted democrat untill him. I've always been Libertarian or Republican. As I get older and more mature (35) now, I started to grow a "heart".

Its funny, the more money I make the more I'm ok with them taxing it. I get the fact that you have to share the wealth a bit and I'm ok with helping others.

Even as early as 5 years back I felt differently.

Anyway, I ramble.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Nooooooorm.

[albionmoonlight]

Every time people in Iraq have a peaceful election, it will seem more normal. Here's hoping for a lot more, until people can't even remember doing it another way.

[Cringer]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

Every time people in Iraq have a peaceful election, it will seem more normal. Here's hoping for a lot more, until people can't even remember doing it another way.

And then BOOM! that's when we strike again!

[Edward64]

Thought this was a pretty cool article and fits under the 'new norm'.

http://www.reuters.com/article/world...rpc=22&sp=true

Khatab returned a year ago and the couple has been venturing out to places where they can spend time alone -- in green areas by the Tigris or along the shores of a nearby a lake.

Even there they must fend off or bribe police who hassle them for being too close or for holding hands.

Like other Iraqis, they are caught between a desire for greater freedom and romantic expression, and a conservative Islamic culture brought to the fore in six years of war.

When religious militias and insurgents controlled swathes of Baghdad, men found with women before marriage were whipped, and the woman taken to her parents, Abbas Jawad said.

"My son is spending Valentine's Day with his girlfriend. He's 16. I would never have allowed that before," he said.

[Edward64]

Definitely too soon to say this is a new norm but interesting story on some visible signs of 'moderation/modernity' in Saudi Arabia.

The article does not really answer why this is happening now and I am not saying the recent success/stabilization in Iraq cause this in Saudi Arabia ... however, I can't help but believe what has occured over the past 5 years or so did contribute into Saudi Arabia's 'calculations'.

Saudi king shakes up religious establishment - Saudi Arabia- msnbc.com

RIYADH, Saudi Arabia - The Saudi king on Saturday dismissed the chief of the religious police and a cleric who condoned killing the owners of TV networks that broadcast "immoral" content, signaling an effort to weaken the country's hard-line Sunni establishment.

The shake-up — King Abdullah's first since coming to power in August 2005 — included the appointment of a female deputy minister, the highest government position a Saudi woman has attained.

The king also changed the makeup of an influential body of religious scholars, for the first time giving more moderate Sunnis representation to the group whose duties include issuing the religious edicts known as fatwas.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Thought this was a pretty cool article and fits under the 'new norm'.

http://www.reuters.com/article/world...rpc=22&sp=true

Don't you mean the new new norm? Remember that Saddam's Iraq was aggressively secular. Religiosity came to the forefront after Saddam was deposed.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

Don't you mean the new new norm? Remember that Saddam's Iraq was aggressively secular. Religiosity came to the forefront after Saddam was deposed.

Yes, you are right. The new new norm, heh.

[Edward64]

Here is another example of a new new norm. It should be interesting to see how Iraq progresses over the next 5-10 years.

End to Baghdad's 'dark era': Nightclubs reopen - Washington Post- msnbc.com

BAGHDAD - The American soldier stepped out of the Baghdad nightclub. In one hand, he clutched his weapon. In the other, a green can of Tuborg beer. He took a sip and walked over to two comrades, dressed as he was in camouflage and combat gear.

Inside the club Thursday night, U.S. soldiers of the 82nd Airborne Division ogled young Iraqi women who appeared to be prostitutes gyrating to Arabic pop music. A singer crooned soulfully through scratchy speakers to the raucous, pulsating beat — an action that Islamic extremists have deemed punishable by beheading.

Twenty minutes later, several drunk men coaxed an American soldier to dance. He awkwardly shuffled his feet, wearing night-vision equipment and a radio, joining the women and boisterous young men in an Arabic chain dance around tables covered with empty beer bottles.

A U.S. military spokesman, responding to a query about the soldiers, was incredulous. "Just so I understand this clearly, you saw U.S. soldiers at a nightclub in downtown Baghdad outside of the Green Zone in uniform drinking and dancing?" asked Tech. Sgt. Chris Stagner.

[ISiddiqui]

I'm not sure that's necessarily Iraq "progressing" really. Saddam was had a very open state, with women having rights, alcohol, etc. Except if you mean in terms of them having enough money to do it... or dancing with Americans .

[Edward64]

Just another article today on the "new new norm". Even though no one wants to declare victory yet (guess it depends on how you define it), I think we are well on our way.

NYT: Baghdad secure enough to sin again - The New York Times- msnbc.com

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Vice is making a comeback in this city once famous for 1,001 varieties of it.

Gone, for the most part, are nighttime curfews, religious extremists and prowling kidnappers. So, inevitably, some people are turning to illicit pleasures, or at least slightly dubious ones.

Nightclubs have reopened, and in many of them, prostitutes troll for clients. Liquor stores, once shut down by fundamentalist militiamen, have proliferated; on one block of busy Saddoun Street, there are more than 10 of them.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Just another article today on the "new new norm". Even though no one wants to declare victory yet (guess it depends on how you define it), I think we are well on our way.

NYT: Baghdad secure enough to sin again - The New York Times- msnbc.com

I really think that due to the unorthodox method of this war, it will end very similiarly to the Cold War. History will pin-point the exact time and place that the war ended, but the general public will never have a good bead on it as the victory unfolds.

With the cold war, they say it was when east and west Berlin tore down the wall, while I remember that event (as it took place) was remarkably significant, we really only knew that things were looking good, we didn't know if the Soviet Union was going to reinvent itself to continue to be the primary enemy in a 2-Super Power role or if it was the beginning of the end for mainstream communism and subsequently "V-Day" of the Cold War.

Similiarly, as of right now, I think "the surge" will be that point for historical reference, but there is still relevant pieces to be played out to ensure that assessment is correct.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Just another article today on the "new new norm". Even though no one wants to declare victory yet (guess it depends on how you define it), I think we are well on our way.

NYT: Baghdad secure enough to sin again - The New York Times- msnbc.com

I hope the media continues to to cover the successes there, even though it seems like a lot of people don't care about it.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Just another article today on the "new new norm". Even though no one wants to declare victory yet (guess it depends on how you define it), I think we are well on our way.

NYT: Baghdad secure enough to sin again - The New York Times- msnbc.com

How do you declare victory on something like this? Over 4,000 young men and women have dies with hundreds of thousands hurt. Not including the hundreds of thousands we've killed and displaced in their country. All for reasons that no one can define.

If I spend time and money replacing the transmission in my car while realizing the old one wasn't broke, is it really a victory in my life?

[BrianD]

Iraq wasn't broke?

[Edward64]

Well. Obama is keeping his promise so far (although a little delayed). Some escalation in deaths leading up to this. Should be interesting the next couple months to see how the Iraqis deal with it.

Iraqis cheer -- and fear -- U.S. pullout from cities - CNN.com

"The Iraqis are rightly treating this day as a cause for celebration," Obama said Tuesday. "The very fact that Iraqis are celebrating this day is a testament to the courage, the capability and commitment of every single American who has served in Iraq. ... Through tour after tour of duty, our troops have overcome every obstacle to extend this precious opportunity to the Iraqi people."

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by BrianD

Iraq wasn't broke?

Old post but I'll respond.

It was broken in our mind. Just as a country like France might look at us and our health care system and say we're broken. Ultimately though, it's not really our business and we shouldn't be sacrificing American lives because another country doesn't live up to our standards.

Iraq was one of many fucked up countries. Whether it's Iran, North Korea, China, or pretty much all of Africa, there are places in the world that are broken by our standards. It doesn't mean we need to bomb the fuck out of them all and sacrifice lives doing so.

[Grammaticus]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Infringing on civil rights and destruction of the Constitution, turning a surplus into a giant deficit, long term reduction and damage to the middle class, extreme cronyism...

Wait, that's not what this thread was about.

SI

The same thing can be said of Obama. Two birds of a feather.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by Grammaticus

The same thing can be said of Obama. Two birds of a feather.

Obama had a surplus?

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Old post but I'll respond.

It was broken in our mind. Just as a country like France might look at us and our health care system and say we're broken. Ultimately though, it's not really our business and we shouldn't be sacrificing American lives because another country doesn't live up to our standards.

Iraq was one of many fucked up countries. Whether it's Iran, North Korea, China, or pretty much all of Africa, there are places in the world that are broken by our standards. It doesn't mean we need to bomb the fuck out of them all and sacrifice lives doing so.

No country is perfect. But that was never the debate nor the concern about Iraq.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Dutch

No country is perfect. But that was never the debate nor the concern about Iraq.

Oh, it was that they were some major threat to us.