#CharlestonShooting

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I know its not his sisters fault but this is obviously not appropriate at this time (and probably never will). To ask the public, strangers to help her get married is weird. Do an affordable marriage, defer the honeymoon and start your lives together.

Now this is what donations should go to instead of a relatively shallow and selfish cause.

Anonymous donors give $3 million to fund scholarships after Charleston shooting - The Washington Post

A group of anonymous donors raised more than $3 million to establish a scholarship fund in the name of Clementa Pinckney, the slain pastor at Emanuel AME Church and a South Carolina state senator, Charleston Mayor Joseph P. Riley Jr. announced Thursday.

The fund, which Riley noted will continue to grow, is intended to ensure that Pinckney’s children and the children of the other victims of the massacre are able to pay for a college education. Additional scholarships will be awarded after criteria have been established.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Now this is what donations should go to instead of a relatively shallow and selfish cause.

She's got as much right for a wedding as anyone does to anything else.

I think gofundme campaigns for weddings are tacky in & of themselves but the two things have nothing to do with each other afaic.

[Easy Mac]

There was a confederate flag rally this morning that started at the Walmart in Easley, then moved to the Pickens Speedway.

I don't think I could write a more South Carolina sentence.

[CU Tiger]

that is what...a 3 mile ride?

Must have been on liquor cycles.

[jeff061]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

She's got as much right for a wedding as anyone does to anything else.

I think gofundme campaigns for weddings are tacky in & of themselves but the two things have nothing to do with each other afaic.

I'm not familiar with GoFundMe, at least not with it being used rather often to fund weddings, is it? I think some of the outrage is the belief that she is using the notoriety of the murders to drive donations to her page. I know that's what I was assuming she was doing, but after further thinking I realize this may not be the case.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by jeff061

I'm not familiar with GoFundMe, at least not with it being used rather often to fund weddings, is it? I think some of the outrage is the belief that she is using the notoriety of the murders to drive donations to her page. I know that's what I was assuming she was doing, but after further thinking I realize this may not be the case.

I assumed that she was using the fact that she IDed him to the FBI when the picture came out to try to recoup the costs of deposits and whatnot she had already paid.

That said, I haven't followed this particular angle of the story closely at all, so that could be way off.

[Ben E Lou]

I wonder what the flag fallout is going to be in SC state politics. One of the few remaining pro-flag State Senators introduced a bill today to have a statewide referendum on the flag. "Let the people of South Carolina decide!" He got shot down 36-3. There's no doubt that every sitting Republican and a significant number of sitting Democrats are going to hear about this in the primaries the next time they're up for re-election. All indications continue to be that the votes in both houses will be landslides.

[Ben E Lou]

Heh...there ya go.

Senate votes 37-3 to remove Confederate battle flag from Statehouse grounds - Post and Courier

[lighthousekeeper]

Yay. Now we live in post racial America!

[Thomkal]

nice. I think it will be interesting to see what happens to the three who voted to keep it flying. Republicans really could have hurt themselves in this state by voting to keep the flag

[JonInMiddleGA]

Disgraceful. Not completely surprising, but utterly disgraceful.

There isn't a corner of hell warm enough for those who voted to remove it.
It's certainly more honorable at its worst than their capitulating asses.

If this is what the world has come to, honestly, it can't end soon enough.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Disgraceful. Not completely surprising, but utterly disgraceful.

There isn't a corner of hell warm enough for those who voted to remove it.
It's certainly more honorable at its worst than their capitulating asses.

If this is what the world has come to, honestly, it can't end soon enough.

You must have been something as a toddler.

I want my flag or everyone should die!!!!

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Disgraceful. Not completely surprising, but utterly disgraceful.

There isn't a corner of hell warm enough for those who voted to remove it.
It's certainly more honorable at its worst than their capitulating asses.

If this is what the world has come to, honestly, it can't end soon enough.

Curious Jon, do you think the flag at all represents slavery? Or that it does to others? or after slavery was over things like the KKK and other surpremacy groups that want nothing more to keep blacks below them?

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Disgraceful. Not completely surprising, but utterly disgraceful.

There isn't a corner of hell warm enough for those who voted to remove it.
It's certainly more honorable at its worst than their capitulating asses.

If this is what the world has come to, honestly, it can't end soon enough.

You know that you're my friend, but come on man. Maybe it's because I'm not from the South, but I just don't understand the vehemence over a flag. Especially a flag with this kind of history.

At the same time, I do understand states rights and usually agree. This though....just have to disagree.

[Ben E Lou]

Fascinating interview with Nikki Haley. There's a fair bit of detail about her response to the crisis, the communications in the 12-18 hours in the aftermath of the murders, etc.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Disgraceful. Not completely surprising, but utterly disgraceful.

There isn't a corner of hell warm enough for those who voted to remove it.
It's certainly more honorable at its worst than their capitulating asses.

If this is what the world has come to, honestly, it can't end soon enough.

It's a dumb flag man. A flag that an army that attacked the US used.

[Thomkal]

Interesting stuff Ben. Makes you wonder if her political fortunes will change or not based on how she handled the shootings.

[cuervo72]

Not going to change any minds, but I came across this googling "what is southern heritage." The article is short and sweet, and had a line that really stood out to me (in bold).

A lesson on 'Southern heritage' and the profound power of symbols - Baltimore Sun

It is good to see the Confederate battle flag taken down from the statehouse grounds in South Carolina — an important step in its eventual, inevitable demise from our public life. But in many ways, the flag issue is a generational one. For people like my former colleague, the flag did not represent hatred of blacks as much as it stood for an earlier time that she remembered fondly, in no small part because white supremacy made her life easier.

[CU Tiger]

This whole discussion has caused me more self introspection than anything I can remember in quite some time. Regardless of what that says about me, good or bad I suppose, it is the truth.

I've come to the place where while I still feel a strong connection to the flag I do think the state house grounds is the wrong place for it. For that reason it needs to be replaced. I also think that there is a slippery slope danger in the knee jerk capitulating that this feels like. There have already been cries to rename many buildings in SC currently named for Ben Tillman. I'll let others research him, he was a most unpleasant dude. Yet was a major proponent of higher education. Buildings on Clemson, Winthrop, Charleston Southern, and Presbyterian College campuses carry his name from donations both pre and post mortus he made to those institutions. At some point if we white wash every undesirable person from history are we really that different than ISIS or AlQuae fundamentalists ON THAT ONE ISSUE?

Probably the only thought Ive put together that I haven't read by others is this: While there is an argument about the role slavery played in the civil war I think there is a false association between slavery and hatred. Please understand I am not advocating slavery, but it was the norm of the day EVERYWHERE not just the American South. There were plenty of slave owners who did not hold slaves out of hatred but out of, for lack of a better word, customary practice.

Not really sure what I hope to accomplish by venturing down that thought path, but I dont think its fair to say that every slave owner had any hatred for any other human. For many it was a way they had always known. A way that we all acknowledge was wrong.

Oh well.
Interesting discussion here to me.

[Ben E Lou]

SLED investigating death threats to legislators over flag issue - Post and Courier

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It's a dumb flag man. A flag that an army that attacked the US used.

And any Southron descendant that turns against it can burn in hell, their very souls are already forfeit as far as I'm concerned. They have abandoned reason, discernment, and any semblance of honor.

fwiw (nada to most), I have a much more mixed bag of feelings/thoughts/sentiments toward my ancestors of that era, and to an extent that would surprise many.

It's hard to avoid a certain ... grudge for what errors in judgment I've spent most of a lifetime paying more. They got some things wrong but I'll forever stand in respect of their willingness to fight, and die, for what they believed was right. (General Patton's preferred admonishment not withstanding)

That's an increasingly rare trait these days, one that I hold in considerable esteem.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

SLED investigating death threats to legislators over flag issue - Post and Courier

FTR, I'm clean.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

FTR, I'm clean.

Ok. I loled.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

And any Southron descendant that turns against it can burn in hell, their very souls are already forfeit as far as I'm concerned. They have abandoned reason, discernment, and any semblance of honor.

Are we SURE that Jon isn't moonlighting in the SC House?


The Latest: Lawmaker suggests hoisting white surrender flag - The Washington Post

I was streaming the SC gov feed when this happened. The blurb in the article does not remotely do the moment justice.

[Ben E Lou]

That link is to one of those "live update" articles. This is the specific blurb to which I was referring:

7:30 p.m.

An amendment to replace the Confederate battle flag outside South Carolina’s Statehouse with a white flag of surrender has been defeated.


House lawmakers tabled the proposal by Rep. Christopher Corley, a Republican, who suggested replacing the Confederate battle flag with a white flag.

The plain white flag, Corley said, would be symbolic of state Republicans’ apparent surrender on the issue.

“I don’t have a picture, but it would look like this,” Corley told the chamber, waving a small white flag from the House podium.

[Ben E Lou]

Good goobledy goop.

SC Rep. Jenny Horne Delivers Impassioned Speech to Take Down the Confederate Flag - YouTube

[Dutch]

I tried to force myself to like that...probably one of those things where the transcript would've been better.

[Ben E Lou]

A proper background check would have at least kept him from getting that particular gun...

FBI: Dylann Roof should not have been able to buy gun - CNNPolitics.com

[cuervo72]

So, what does everyone have planned for Nathan Bedford Forrest Day tomorrow?

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

So, what does everyone have planned for Nathan Bedford Forrest Day tomorrow?

Whatever party you are at works for me, brother.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

So, what does everyone have planned for Nathan Bedford Forrest Day tomorrow?

Not lynching people

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by stevew

Not lynching people

Sounds good, I'm in.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

A proper background check would have at least kept him from getting that particular gun...

FBI: Dylann Roof should not have been able to buy gun - CNNPolitics.com

Everyone talks about new gun control laws but we don't even enforce the ones we have today. Nor do we punish people for breaking them.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

So, what does everyone have planned for Nathan Bedford Forrest Day tomorrow?

Me? Nothing. Though I'm sure there are some folks out there washing up their best white sheets for the day!

[cartman]

[Dutch]

Hell yeah...'Murica first.

[bob]

Curious what people think about Stone Mountain Park:

NAACP: Banish Confederate symbols from Stone Mountain - CNN.com

[ISiddiqui]

Stone Mountain is a tough one. I mean it was intended to be a KKK meeting place. The owner of the property was a Grand Dragon and the Klan met under the bas relief sculpture for its meeting places. I can totally agree with lowering the Confederate battle flags, but the bas relief is the largest of its kind in the world - and interestingly enough doesn't have any Confederate battle flags on it. Perhaps it can preserved as more of a "museum piece".

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Stone Mountain is a tough one. I mean it was intended to be a KKK meeting place. The owner of the property was a Grand Dragon and the Klan met under the bas relief sculpture for its meeting places. I can totally agree with lowering the Confederate battle flags, but the bas relief is the largest of its kind in the world - and interestingly enough doesn't have any Confederate battle flags on it. Perhaps it can preserved as more of a "museum piece".

I tend to agree. With it being state-owned, I would think that placards should be added about the war and what was going on (the truth). It should be an educational experience.

[bob]

I've been to Stone Mountain probably 5 times in my life. Outside of the carving obviously, I don't remember seeing much of anything related to the Civil War or confederacy. Old South, yes, but that stuff was similar to going Conner Prairie or any number of "old-timey" pioneer villages. If there is a museum somewhere, I've never seen it. It was more an amusement park feel with hiking and other activities.

My old company had its yearly picnic there a few times and the crowd you see there is a pretty diverse bunch.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Stone Mountain is a tough one.

Well, people take it for ... {wait for it} ... granite.

And now, almost obligatory old joke aside, a very serious observation:
Anybody makes a move toward that carving they better be wearing body armor.

You want to see bloodshed? Fuck with Stone Mountain.

No threat, just a simple straightforward prediction.

Race relations are at the lowest/worst point I've seen in my lifetime* and I don't believe we're all that far from things getting very out of hand. That's the sort of thing that would send them there IMO.


*(I was born in the late 60s but have no serious recollection of the decade so they don't count for the purpose of that statement)

[path12]

I could have sworn when I visited Stone Mountain (this was like '93 or so) there was a center there that covered the war and the march on Georgia.

[bob]

Originally Posted by path12

I could have sworn when I visited Stone Mountain (this was like '93 or so) there was a center there that covered the war and the march on Georgia.

There very likely is - I just don't remember seeing it.

[Dutch]

I've been making a bi-weekly trek from Raleigh to Fayetteville for a few months...Ive seen a few Confederate flag trucks....just like in Florida. Saw my first flag on private residence this week. Which is not to say anything other than I figured this was a likely response. Not nearly as wide spread as I thought by this point, so I guess that's a good sign. USA flag still outnumbers Confederate flags like 10,000 to 1 though.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by path12

I could have sworn when I visited Stone Mountain (this was like '93 or so) there was a center there that covered the war and the march on Georgia.

There is (or at least used to be). There are a few places around the park that commemorates the war. The park over all has become more theme-parky now, though. The laser show they do nightly still has a civil war section that has the flag in it while Elvis sings "Dixie Land." That has been a part of the show since it started (early 90's?).

I grew up in Stone Mountain, and most of my family came from there. Yes, that means I have relatives (including my grandfather) that were members of the Klan. The area now is largely African-American, which I find amusing (imagining those old jerks turning over in their graves). I don't agree that the carving should go, though. The line "that flag belongs in a museum" comes to mind. That is what the park is and should stay.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I've been making a bi-weekly trek from Raleigh to Fayetteville for a few months...Ive seen a few Confederate flag trucks....just like in Florida. Saw my first flag on private residence this week. Which is not to say anything other than I figured this was a likely response. Not nearly as wide spread as I thought by this point, so I guess that's a good sign. USA flag still outnumbers Confederate flags like 10,000 to 1 though.

I saw a big one flying out the middle of a truck bed the other day (might have been mounted on a lawn tractor) in Gettysburg.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I've been making a bi-weekly trek from Raleigh to Fayetteville for a few months...Ive seen a few Confederate flag trucks....just like in Florida. Saw my first flag on private residence this week. Which is not to say anything other than I figured this was a likely response. Not nearly as wide spread as I thought by this point, so I guess that's a good sign. USA flag still outnumbers Confederate flags like 10,000 to 1 though.

Just visited South Carolina last week and only roadside sighting I had was on I-16 in Georgia. A few cars in Georgia and Tennessee but who knows where they were from. Of course we have a neighbor who flies the confederate flag and the Dont tread flag so morons aren't an exclusively Deep South thing either.

[stevew]

western PA must be a bastion for the confederacy.

[bob]

Photos: Confederate flag rally at Stone Mountain Park | www.ajc.com

[BishopMVP]

There's actually a Boston-area HS called the Rebels that's going through these issues... They stopped using the Confederate Flag as a symbol back in 1994, but a neighbor (and ex-football player) put up a huge one on his property that *looks* like it's part of the football(/soccer/lacrosse) stadium. In Walpole, a renewed push to take down a rebel symbol - South - The Boston Globe