The Trump Presidency – 2016

[albionmoonlight]

It does not seem that hard.

(1) Trump is very popular with Republican voters.

(2) Republican politicians try to distance themselves a bit from his most extreme rhetoric but have not used their power to stop him or his agenda.

This isn't even that uncommon or surprising. Politicians tend not to oppose the leader of their party when he has strong support from that party's voters. These guys are all running for re-election as Republicans. Opposing Trump seems like electoral suicide for them.

[PilotMan]

Ladies and Gentlemen, the president of the United States:

“Did MBS [Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman] lie to you, sir?” Wallace asked.

“I don’t know,” Trump responded. “You know, who can really know?” “But I can say this: He’s got many people now that say he had no knowledge…He told me that he had nothing to do with it…Will anybody really know?” Aw shucks, I wonder. Guess we’ll just move on.

And there you have the US response by the president, on being lied to about on the foreign assassination of a journalist (who criticized his countries leaders) and permanent US resident.

Oh, and then there was this:

“If you’re watching from New York or you are watching from Washington, D.C., you don’t really see the gravity of it,” he told reporters. “As big as they look on the tube, you don’t see what’s going on until you come here. And what we saw at Pleasure, what a name right now. But we just saw, we just left Pleasure —”

“Paradise,” interjected a slew of officials.

“Paradise,” Trump confirmed, then moved on.

I mean, if comedians and performers can put a little effort into it to get it right night after night, surely the dumbass in chief could put a little effort into getting it right for a city that quite literally burned to the ground.

Meanwhile, back in 'let's change the subject land":

“Wouldn’t it have been nice if we got Osama bin Laden a lot sooner than that, wouldn’t it have been nice?” Trump said of McRaven, who led the 2011 operation that killed bin Laden. “You know, living — think of this — living in Pakistan, beautifully in Pakistan, in what I guess they considered a nice mansion, I don’t know, I’ve seen nicer, but living in Pakistan right next to the military academy. Everybody in Pakistan knew he was there."

These are the direct quotes. No opinion, no spin, simply the words of the man. He both knows everyone, everything, and knows nothing. He's got the best people, but they've never met. He's has a plan, or maybe he doesn't, we'll see. But one thing is for sure, he gives himself an A+ for the job he's doing.

It's not exactly hard to get that economy humming when you've dumped a trillion dollar stimulus (with no intention to pay it back) into it when it was already moving along. I thought that stimulus packages were for recessions, not bull markets? The last 2 years are the most egregious, thoughtless, economic policy that we've seen, and we're going to wonder why things are so hard to recover from when the economy finally turns south (2019 or 2020).

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

It does not seem that hard.

(1) Trump is very popular with Republican voters.

(2) Republican politicians try to distance themselves a bit from his most extreme rhetoric but have not used their power to stop him or his agenda.

This isn't even that uncommon or surprising. Politicians tend not to oppose the leader of their party when he has strong support from that party's voters. These guys are all running for re-election as Republicans. Opposing Trump seems like electoral suicide for them.

Just look at Flake and Graham. Flake has no future in the GOP even though he was a consistent vote for Trump because he was also vocally critical. Graham has decided to renounce his past criticisms and embrace Trump fully and he's never been more popular with GOP voters in SC.

[albionmoonlight]

This does not have to do with Trump per-se, but I think that the GOP is obsessing way too much over Ocasio-Cortez. Her politics are too far left for my taste, but she's personally very likable, and I think that they more they attack her, the worse they look. Losing your shit over how a woman dresses seems like exactly the thing you would do if you didn't want to win back the suburban soccer moms.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

This does not have to do with Trump per-se, but I think that the GOP is obsessing way too much over Ocasio-Cortez. Her politics are too far left for my taste, but she's personally very likable, and I think that they more they attack her, the worse they look. Losing your shit over how a woman dresses seems like exactly the thing you would do if you didn't want to win back the suburban soccer moms.

Seriously. And she has really little power right now. She's going to be sworn in as a regular Congressperson. They are going nuts over her for no reason.

[bronconick]

She might not need rent money after all since she's living rent free inside their head

[digamma]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Seriously. And she has really little power right now. She's going to be sworn in as a regular Congressperson. They are going nuts over her for no reason.

She's very good at capitalizing on the publicity though. She's a bit of a social media force right now.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by digamma

She's very good at capitalizing on the publicity though. She's a bit of a social media force right now.

Indeed. Don't get me wrong, I think she's quite savvy and intelligent. But she has no real power aside from 1 vote in the House. The GOP attacking her so much on silly things is playing into her wheelhouse (and making a lot of them look out of touch).

[JPhillips]

New @wesleysmorgan SCOOP: The Pentagon is set to begin a drawdown of its 5,800 troops from the Southwest border as early as this week, the Army commander overseeing the mission told POLITICO.

Everything's a con.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I think she's quite savvy and intelligent

...and pretty cute, too.

[NobodyHere]

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/19/ivan...-business.html

I'm sure Republicans will be calling for mass investigations soon. I mean any time now.

[MrBug708]

I wonder if they were classified

[JPhillips]

Trump's personal calls certainly are.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

I wonder if they were classified

Allegedly she didn't have even an interim Top Secret clearance until the middle of 2017. Which doesn't preclude her having sent classified stuff via her private email between June '17 and now, but you'd hope, in theory, she would have been given a heads-up between January and June on what she should and shouldn't be doing.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by HerRealName

Our Armed Forces are socialist institutions. They have universal health care, subsidized housing and child care, even the clothing is socialized. It's insane to see Socialists in a more negative way than freakin' white supremacists. This is crazy.

Only the last sentence here is true; and that's because the first sentence is completely false. Socialism has nothing to do with the armed forces, and what's described here isn't socialism, so I think we're really dealing with a language barrier.

Maybe the same thing exists when the populace is polled, and they don't really want socialism, they just want what they mistakenly think socialism is. But to compare to the polls I mentioned previously, a 2016 poll taken during the primary season found that 50% of those voting on the Democratic Party side favored socialism over capitalism, given a choice between the two. The choice given there isn't 'do you want a social safety net' or 'do you think universal health care is a good thing' or 'should housing be subsidized'. It's 'do we have the wrong fundamental basis for our economic system at its core', which is a completely different question.

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

(1) Trump is very popular with Republican voters.

(2) Republican politicians try to distance themselves a bit from his most extreme rhetoric but have not used their power to stop him or his agenda.

Absolutely. These however were not the questions under discussion; that matter was whether Republican voters were indicating by their vote and support of him that they favor white nationalism, or whether there might possibly be other reasons for their support in the great majority of cases. Reasons such as, just throwing things out there, the reasons they themselves repeatedly stated for their support when polled about the subject.

[JPhillips]

But we also have data that racial resentment is highly correlated with support for Trump. I wouldn't ever say everyone that voted for Trump was a racist, but we have pretty good data that a lot of racists voted for Trump.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

Absolutely. These however were not the questions under discussion; that matter was whether Republican voters were indicating by their vote and support of him that they favor white nationalism, or whether there might possibly be other reasons for their support in the great majority of cases. Reasons such as, just throwing things out there, the reasons they themselves repeatedly stated for their support when polled about the subject.

People don't exactly jump at the chance to call themselves white nationalists in a poll.

Trump's policies aren't much different from your run-of-the-mill Republican. What separated him was the white nationalism. It was the cornerstone of his campaign and something he has pushed more than anything else in his Presidency. His rise to popularity in politics centered around his pushing of the racist birther conspiracy (which the majority of Republicans believe).

Regardless of the reasons they state, those people did not think a white nationalist was a disqualifying factor in being the President.

[RainMaker]

Also AOC isn't an actual socialist. She isn't calling for seizing the means of production. Democratic-Socialists are just people who feel there should be a bigger safety net than currently available. They aren't looking to emulate Venezuela, they're looking to emulate Europe.

Calling themselves Democrat Socialists doesn't do them any favors.

[PilotMan]

As I said yesterday, trump is moving on from the Saudi assassination of a US resident. He's pulling the maybe we know, maybe we don't, but nobody will ever really know (how could we) line to avoid dealing with it. Not shocking...at all.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Also AOC isn't an actual socialist. She isn't calling for seizing the means of production. Democratic-Socialists are just people who feel there should be a bigger safety net than currently available. They aren't looking to emulate Venezuela, they're looking to emulate Europe.

Calling themselves Democrat Socialists doesn't do them any favors.

Democratic Socialists are socialists. They believe in achieving socialism through democratic means. AOC and her ilk may not be calling for seizing the means of production right now, but wait until they get some real influence.

[Butter]

Stoke that fear baby

[JPhillips]

That's the same reason I keep saying RepubLICANS are pro-werewolf!

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

As I said yesterday, trump is moving on from the Saudi assassination of a US resident. He's pulling the maybe we know, maybe we don't, but nobody will ever really know (how could we) line to avoid dealing with it. Not shocking...at all.

Yep that's what it looks like-here's the statement from the White House:


Statement from President Donald J. TrumpÂ*on Standing with Saudi Arabia | The White House

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

But we also have data that racial resentment is highly correlated with support for Trump. I wouldn't ever say everyone that voted for Trump was a racist, but we have pretty good data that a lot of racists voted for Trump.

Yep. A lot of the analysis after the election showed that racial animus was a key for Trump voters. Those voters that voted for Obama twice and then voted for Trump were most swayed by Trump's xenophobic rhetoric against Mexicans and Muslims (people wonder how you can say people who voted for Obama twice were animated by racism I guess tend to forget that there are more than two races?).

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

Yep that's what it looks like-here's the statement from the White House:

Statement from President Donald J. TrumpÂ*on Standing with Saudi Arabia | The White House

He needs someone to launder money through his businesses.

[whomario]

I kinda forgot how deep-rooted the phobia towards anything even remotely veering away from hard cold capitalism is in the US.

As someone who studied the history/policies/ideologies of actual socialist movements (as americans understand the word) I would second the Venezuela/Europe statement by RainMaker. It continues to boggle the mind how as a country the need to protect against some perceived threat to the perceived (and often remote) possibility to 'make it' continues to dwarf the need to drag the self-proclaimed greatest country in the world out of mediocrity (at best, i might add) in terms of social security and, quite frankly, quality of life for a large portion of the population.

There's so many things worth fixing when it comes to this area (or connected areas like healthcare) and yet somehow people are up in arms whenever someone tries.

I mean, your president just got away with abusing his office and costing the american tax payer untold millions by sending troops on a little southern vacation because of that very mentality ... And at this point i think i will stop just short of diving into the rabbit hole that is military spending.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

Yep that's what it looks like-here's the statement from the White House:


Statement from President Donald J. TrumpÂ*on Standing with Saudi Arabia | The White House

The statement is also full of (the usual) factual errors and blatant omissions.

Trump’s Khashoggi statement is a green light for murder - Vox

Well, at least he didn't bring up the 10 million (must be that high by now) jobs the Saudis are financing in the US.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by whomario

I kinda forgot how deep-rooted the phobia towards anything even remotely veering away from hard cold capitalism is in the US.

It's kind of weird considering our bastardized version of capitalism in this country. We've socialized losses for the major banks and financial institutions. We give massive handouts to companies like Amazon. Our health care industry is set up to subsidize the pharmaceutical and insurance companies.

[HerRealName]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

Only the last sentence here is true; and that's because the first sentence is completely false. Socialism has nothing to do with the armed forces, and what's described here isn't socialism, so I think we're really dealing with a language barrier.

Maybe the same thing exists when the populace is polled, and they don't really want socialism, they just want what they mistakenly think socialism is. But to compare to the polls I mentioned previously, a 2016 poll taken during the primary season found that 50% of those voting on the Democratic Party side favored socialism over capitalism, given a choice between the two. The choice given there isn't 'do you want a social safety net' or 'do you think universal health care is a good thing' or 'should housing be subsidized'. It's 'do we have the wrong fundamental basis for our economic system at its core', which is a completely different question.

It's obviously a spectrum with no clear deliniation but in the American context it seems pretty clear that those on the far left that want a Medicare for all type system, a move away from flatter tax rates, and public support for higher education are identified as "Socialists". Maybe a few college kids wearing Che t-shirts are wanting to seize private business but it's a very uncommon position.

Would you say the people with those three main political goals are worse than white supremacists?

I also find it fascinating that you don't see that the Armed Forces is set up in a socialistic manner but it isn't important.

[NobodyHere]

And now my mutual fund is in the red for the year. Thanks Trump!

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by whomario

The statement is also full of (the usual) factual errors and blatant omissions.

Trump’s Khashoggi statement is a green light for murder - Vox

Well, at least he didn't bring up the 10 million (must be that high by now) jobs the Saudis are financing in the US.

The funny thing is, that if this had been the Obama administration, we'd have had a tweet out from him about how SA had been basically responsible for financing and doing 9/11 and now we're completely giving up the sovereignty of the country so Obama can do a little business with a bunch of terrorist criminals, and how that makes him a traitor and in need of impeachment.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by HerRealName

It's obviously a spectrum with no clear deliniation but in the American context it seems pretty clear that those on the far left that want a Medicare for all type system, a move away from flatter tax rates, and public support for higher education are identified as "Socialists". Maybe a few college kids wearing Che t-shirts are wanting to seize private business but it's a very uncommon position.

Would you say the people with those three main political goals are worse than white supremacists?

I also find it fascinating that you don't see that the Armed Forces is set up in a socialistic manner but it isn't important.

It was only 50 years ago where Nixon (and many other R's) floated the very same idea, where the social safety net was important and where they remembered just how important the government was at helping lift people out of poverty. Just watching the 80's doc (CNN) episode about Reagan, reminded us that he raised taxes multiple times (because the deficit spending was out of control), put 2 pro-choice judges on the supreme court and legalized a few million immigrants. Today's Republican party has gone down the Goldwater/McCarthy road to radical conservative values and mainstreamed them. The left isn't really all that radical right now. Any one of them would have been very much a normal political commodity a few decades ago.



We see Republican controlled state houses voting to eliminate powers of governors as they lose power, in order to keep control. Republican lead efforts to squash voter participation by using vague reasons for unregistering voters without telling them, closing polling places in poor, or minority served areas. Republican lead efforts to continue to marginalize minority groups, from women, to immigrants, to the LGBTQ community. They pit the middle class against the poor to maintain power, by scaring them into believing that the the poor are a threat and only aligning with the powerful can they maintain their place. The middle class acts as a group fighting for the little they have, proud that they have it, and fearful (because many have lost everything) they might be next, so they go along.

It's not about everyone being equal, it's about providing as equal as possible, a footing, where anyone can succeed with enough effort. One side recognizes that as it is right now, the playing field is heavily tilted toward one side, whereas the other says that everyone is already doing good enough and if you take away the opportunity from the rich people the unwashed masses will end up breaking everything. It's a very aristocratic view, much the way the Jeffersons and Madison's of the world saw it. There were enough groups that founded the US that we can recognize that there were multiple visions of what the US was. They conflicted then as they do now, but they were all the visions of the founders.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by HerRealName

in the American context it seems pretty clear that those on the far left that want a Medicare for all type system, a move away from flatter tax rates, and public support for higher education are identified as "Socialists". Maybe a few college kids wearing Che t-shirts are wanting to seize private business but it's a very uncommon position.

I would respectfully suggest that your stated opinion is not backed up by the data. Medicare for all is very popular no matter who you ask. 70% of all Americans and 85% of Democrats in the latest poll I found. Meanwhile the other one showed 50% of Democrats - a much smaller number - specifically chose socialism over capitalism. I selected that poll for a reason, as mentioned previously there are other ones out there about whether we should spend more on the public good in various policy areas. It's pretty clear from the difference in the poll numbers that respondents are not, in fact, equating socialism with these things.

Originally Posted by HerRealName

Would you say the people with those three main political goals are worse than white supremacists?

No, I don't know any of them and couldn't make a judgment on who is worse. I think you are probably getting at which set of views I find more objectionable, in which case I would say those of the white supremacists. I agree with the policy goals as laid out myself, though I'd expect differences would be uncovered if we dug deeper. I do still maintain that there are far more, and it's not remotely close, pro-socialist than pro-white supremacist people in the United States, which is why I think they are more dangerous. Ever since Charlottesville those people have been shouted down pretty much everywhere they tried to go and protest. People are engaged and opposing them. There are far, far fewer in favor than against, and while they aren't a total non-concern they don't deserve nearly the worry that's been expressed IMO.

.02.

[AlexB]

It’s a good job the increased Republican control of the Senate means that they will will blindly accept anything Trump edicts. Doh!

At least there appears to be some sense of what is right lurking somewhere in the Senate:
Trump asked to determine Saudi prince's 'role' in Khashoggi murder - BBC News

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

I do still maintain that there are far more, and it's not remotely close, pro-socialist than pro-white supremacist people in the United States, which is why I think they are more dangerous. Ever since Charlottesville those people have been shouted down pretty much everywhere they tried to go and protest. People are engaged and opposing them. There are far, far fewer in favor than against, and while they aren't a total non-concern they don't deserve nearly the worry that's been expressed IMO. .02.

Speaking as someone with a fairly diverse set of friends - while White Supremecists might not be in vogue racism has definitely raised far more of a head since Trump took power and I've seen and heard about far more offensive racist statements being inflicted on people in the last two years than I had in nearly a decade previously.

When I first moved to the US around 15 years ago I was shocked at how backward it was in terms of racism in Florida, it gradually improved (or I got used to it, probably a bit of both) - but today I believe its back to worse than it was before I moved here ... some is undoubtably my perception of things through personal events, but some is just a general rise in intolerance of people who are 'other' imho.

PS - Out of interest what do you mean by 'socialist' - people who like the idea of a nationalised healthcare system where people are treated regardless of income or the literal definition of it? ...

[kingfc22]

Trump still doesn’t understand how the US Govt works. Openly criticizing the Chief Justice now.

And Republicans will stand by and watch...

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by kingfc22

Trump still doesn’t understand how the US Govt works. Openly criticizing the Chief Justice now.

And Republicans will stand by and watch...

He doesn't care to know. He maintains his popularity with his base when he tweets out this nonsense. The average Trump voter would rather he stand up to the libs than actually be intelligent and knowledgeable.

[HerRealName]

BS, I'm also wondering which politicians you consider to be a Socialist? Is Bernie Sanders? How about AOC? The threshold that I've seen from the right has been very low up until this conversation. For example, I saw Ted Cruz refer to Beto O'Rourke as a Socialist multiple times.

Even if you don't consider Trump to be a white supremacist, would agree that Steve King is?

[RainMaker]

I don't know the number of legitimate socialists and legitimate white supremacists in this country.

I do know an actual socialist has no chance of being elected President (let alone any major office). A white supremacist was just elected President.

[thesloppy]

I don't think raw numbers is a fair comparison of threat in the first place. There's a million-fold more toddlers than serial killers in this country, that doesn't make them a bigger threat to your life.

Likewise, if you're a white individual then the personal threat presented by white supremacists is obviously a little more questionable, which can distort perspectives. I certainly don't think any person of color would characterize the growth of white supremacy and racial violence in the 21st century as overblown or not worthy worrying about, even if its rise were only in perception.

[Marc Vaughan]

On the racism front - had an Uber driver say he was surprised about where I lived because he doesn't normally do runs in my area ... reason being he was verbally (and nearly physically) abused by a racist when he went for a pickup near my neighbourhood ... its somewhat rural and very red politically in my neck of the woods, to the extent one of my neighbours stopped talking to me for a while because she felt 'attacked' because I put up a sign which said "Everyone is welcome here" in several different languages ...

She somehow decided this was an attack on her, I have explained to her since that no it wasn't anything to do with her - more a reassurance to one of my friends who is Iranian and studying for their Phd here that I am supportive of them.

(these are the sorts of things which have lead me to think things have become far worse in Florida than prior to Trump being elected)

[Lathum]

Don't know if anyone is watching the MAcy Day Parade, but man, some people are likely freaking out right now after the performance from Prom

[JPhillips]

I don't understand why Medicare for some is okay, but Medicare for all is radical socialism.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I don't understand why Medicare for some is okay, but Medicare for all is radical socialism.

Get your damn government hands off my Medicare!

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Don't know if anyone is watching the MAcy Day Parade, but man, some people are likely freaking out right now after the performance from Prom

Why?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Why?

Two girls kissing at the end of the performance.

[MrBug708]

Didn't Will and Grace do that like a decade ago?

[kingfc22]

In other news, it’s cold outside so climate change isn’t real.

In other, other news, it’s nighttime the sun doesn’t exist.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by kingfc22

In other news, it’s cold outside so climate change isn’t real.

Thing is, and you know this obviously, with the target audience (his "base") this is a 100% effective talking point. He says this on the risers at one of his rallies, and he will get screams of delight and agreement. That's just what politics has become now.

We've run out of insults and analogies to describe this guy. Con man, carnival barker, and aspiring fascist are, unbelievably, not even negative enough to fully characterize this guy.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Didn't Will and Grace do that like a decade ago?

Not thanksgiving morning during wholesome family entertainment.