"Mister Lewis"/"Mister Ben"/"Ben" and other parents...

[Ben E Lou]

Warning: Fairly long post...

Let me preface this by saying that I am aware that in some ways I see things as those roughly a generation older than me, because my parents were in their 40s when I was born, yet my younger brother and I were raised pretty much the same way they raised the first three kids nearly 20 years earlier. I recall people praising my parents for "how polite Ben and Kenny are." We simply never answered a question from an adult without a "sir" or "ma'am" on the end of it. Period. It was drilled into us for as long as I recall. And with one exception, we never, ever referred to any adult as anything besides "Mr./Mrs./Dr./{military title}/Coach {lastname}" (The only exception was Uncle/Aunt {firstname}.) It happens that my wife's parents, while younger than mine, were very old-school for their age as well, and she was the same way. To this day, in our 40s, the older folks in the church and so forth are Mr./Mrs., and always get a "yes ma'am/yes sir" from us. (And when I'm in Columbus, I still can't bring myself to call any of my high school coaches--even the two who are only around 6-8 years older than me--anything but "Coach {lastname}." )

Fast forward to 2012, and raising a daughter. It seems that the *most* "old-school-parenting" friends we have tell their kids to call me "Mr. Ben." For the rest, it's just "Ben." (Not shockingly, we are training our little one that the next-door neighbors are "Mr. and Mrs. Dunn." Ada's daddy, two doors down, is "Dr. Campbell.") It just seems inappropriate to me for a 3-year-old (or an 8-year-old or a 16-year-old) to call an adult by their first name. That said, to each his own. If you want to raise your child that way, I'm not going to attempt to change you, but I do expect the same consideration from you...and that leads me to the irritation that caused me to post this thread.

What's frustrating is the number of adults who, well-meaning or not, simply won't (or are too dense) to respect our wishes on this. Here's what I mean:

TYPICAL SCENARIO
{outside playing, and a neighbor starts to approach, walking the dog}

Carter: {to me/SWMBO} "May I go pet the doggie, pwease?"
SWMBO: "It's Mrs. Johnson's doggie. You need to ask Mrs. Johnson if you may pet the doggie."
Carter: "Mrs. Johnson, may I pet your doggie, pwease?"
Mrs. Johnson: {to Carter} "Sure, Carter!" {to us, at full volume, while Carter is still standing right there and can hear her} "It's ok if she calls me 'Jane'."

Really??? Seriously???? You're contradicting a clear and obvious parental preference right in front of the child? Maybe that's excusable if she didn't have a 3-year-old and just wasn't thinking, but given that she's doing the same thing we're doing...wow. Or is she that insecure about her age that she can't handle a near-3-year old calling her "Mrs.?" While I find it a bit off-putting when someone else instructs their child to call me "Ben," I'm certainly not going to contradict another parent's wishes (as long as they don't put the other child or my child in danger) right there in front of the parent.

And the above isn't an isolated incident. It happens with alarming frequency, at least 25% of the times that Carter has her first interaction with an adult and we refer to said adult as Mr./Mrs. So-and-So, probably closer to 50%.

I am aware that we're "going against the grain" to a degree on the Mr./Mrs. thing, but I just can't imagine that we're THAT far out in left field with regard to expecting other adults to respect our parental wishes. Thoughts?

[Logan]

I think by your use of question marks you're taking this too far.

[Coffee Warlord]

That scenario right there is a tough one. I'm going to work under the assumption is these people actually don't even consider that to be a contradiction of your wishes. Doesn't even enter their thought process. Someone addresses you are Mr/Mrs, you're prefer to be addressed otherwise, you say so, done.

I think you're assuming they are willingly/consciously contradicting your wishes. I argue they aren't even picking up on that.

edit: FWIW, I actually am with you on wanting my kid to address adults as Mr/Mrs. (When he can say more than a couple of barely intelligible words, that is).

But yeah, I think you're reading far too much into the situation, and assuming quasi-malice (for lack of better word) where there is none.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

I think you're assuming they are willingly/consciously contradicting your wishes. I argue they aren't even picking up on that.

Heh. actually I am allowing for that possibility.

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

What's frustrating is the number of adults who, well-meaning or not, simply won't (or are too dense) to respect our wishes on this.

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Heh. actually I am allowing for that possibility.

Touche. Teaches me to respond to posts after only 1 cup of coffee and barely any sleep.

[Subby]

I wouldn't get bent out of shape about it as I don't know that it is a sign of disrespect for your parental wishes. Jane is saying that it is okay with her that your daughter calls her that, on the off-chance that you are insisting on formality because you think she expects it. My sense is that in "friendly" situations people look to de-formalize matters as quickly as possible. If they miss your verbal cue, then you gently reinforce it. A gracious "Thanks, but we prefer that she addresses you as Mrs." will usually put the matter to bed forever.

[Autumn]

Well, in their defense, etiquette probably says that it's up to the person being referred to to decide how they like to be addressed, not the people talking to them, no? I understand what you're saying, but I think it's within people's rights to decide how they would like people to address them. If you had taught your kids to call people by the first name (for some reason) and they said, "I would like you to call me Mr. Johnson" you would expect your kid to respect that, right?

[spleen1015]

I get what you are saying, but under the same idea, she obviously wants to be called Jane. Why not respect her wishes? Maybe your parental preference contradict hers?

I don't think your preferences are wrong. You can raise your children how ever you like, but times are changing. The world is a different place today.

Some things aren't worth getting bent out of shape over, IMO.

[Buccaneer]

Regional.. Cultural.. norms?

I think about my son, who was also born to older parents. He calls all of his teachers Mr/Mrs but I think that has always been the norm. Out West, esp. California where we were partially raised, we are much less formal. Our businesses are more informal than the East or South. Our churches are certainly much less formal than the South (and East, I think). And our social interactions/groups/institutions are generally more informal. In the manner of how we dress, how we speak and in addressing each other, I believe. Not a direct correlation to your post but an observations from long life living in the East, South and West.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

You shall always be "Mr. Skydog" to a great many across this land.

And you're right. I believe it has to do with people being averse to getting old. How many grandparents don't like being called "Grandma/Grandpa" Parents wanting their kids to call them by their first name. Cats and dogs, living together...

[Logan]

I would think you're better off just explaining to your kid (if she is picking up on it, as you suggest) that this is just one more instance of people having different parenting preferences (what kind of food to give their kids, bedtimes, TV/computer time, etc) and just like with those, she will follow the rules of your house, which is to keep addressing adults as Mr/Mrs.

[Blackadar]

Don't apologize for good manners. I teach my kids to use Mr/Mrs, please/thank you, etc. It's reinforced every day. I also frown on little ones using my first name without a Mr. in front of it. I think it's poor manners.

However, last names can be awkward because there aren't that many traditional families out there - and even traditional families may not do things that are traditional. For example, my biological son and daughter do not have my last name. For personal reasons, we gave them my wife's maiden last name. So when kids come over, I always instruct them to call me "Mr. JT" rather than use my last name, because it might be confusing for them. In fact, most of the parents of the kids don't even know I have a different last name.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by Autumn

Well, in their defense, etiquette probably says that it's up to the person being referred to to decide how they like to be addressed, not the people talking to them, no? I understand what you're saying, but I think it's within people's rights to decide how they would like people to address them. If you had taught your kids to call people by the first name (for some reason) and they said, "I would like you to call me Mr. Johnson" you would expect your kid to respect that, right?

Originally Posted by spleen1015

I get what you are saying, but under the same idea, she obviously wants to be called Jane. Why not respect her wishes? Maybe your parental preference contradict hers?

I don't think your preferences are wrong. You can raise your children how ever you like, but times are changing. The world is a different place today.

Some things aren't worth getting bent out of shape over, IMO.

My thoughts as well. Jane might be thinking the same of you-- "Why is he telling her to call me Mrs. Johnson? Why won't he respect my wishes?"

I always remember my mother, when one of my friends called her Mrs. Rhythm said "That's my mother in law...call me Linda". Whatever her reasons were, that's what she wanted.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Autumn

Well, in their defense, etiquette probably says that it's up to the person being referred to to decide how they like to be addressed, not the people talking to them, no? I understand what you're saying, but I think it's within people's rights to decide how they would like people to address them. If you had taught your kids to call people by the first name (for some reason) and they said, "I would like you to call me Mr. Johnson" you would expect your kid to respect that, right?

Interesting point. I would argue that the parental preference should supercede the other person's preference in a situation like that, but I don't really get the vibe that people are trying to share an alternate preference. Reading Subby's response, I think he actually is the closest to the truth so far, at least in the situations where this has come up in our lives:

Jane is saying that it is okay with her that your daughter calls her that, on the off-chance that you are insisting on formality because you think she expects it. My sense is that in "friendly" situations people look to de-formalize matters as quickly as possible.

Although one little thought on his last comment:

. If they miss your verbal cue, then you gently reinforce it. A gracious "Thanks, but we prefer that she addresses you as Mrs." will usually put the matter to bed forever.

We do that with non-parents, but we don't want to come across as condemning other parents' way of doing things. Conflicting parenting styles are actually quite controversial in the Charleston area, probably because this is the operating base for the Ezzos (the Babywise/Growing Kids God's Way people). There are those who are vehemently pro-Ezzo, and, it seems, about an equal number of those who are equally vehemently anti-Ezzo. The two sides attack/condemn each other's parenting styles frequently and sometimes publicly. We try our best to avoid being seen as on either side of that silly fight.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Autumn

Well, in their defense, etiquette probably says that it's up to the person being referred to to decide how they like to be addressed, not the people talking to them, no? I understand what you're saying, but I think it's within people's rights to decide how they would like people to address them. If you had taught your kids to call people by the first name (for some reason) and they said, "I would like you to call me Mr. Johnson" you would expect your kid to respect that, right?

This is how we go about it. Whenever we introduce Colin to a new adult we always ask the adult what they would like to be called. I think it is generational thing and try as you may you will be likely powerless to stop it once your kid starts having unsupervised visits to friends houses.

[Autumn]

Yeah, I can understand the frustration of wanting to raise your children to address people the "right" way. But if the reason behind that is respect and manners, and yet you insist on it despite the other person's wishes, it seems that's in contrast with respect and manners. Not sure there's a way for you both to get what you want out of this. I would draw a new line - when speaking to you you can still insist they use the form of address you want, but respect what other people want to be called to their face.

EDIT: by which I mean you can still ask your kid to call Jane Johnson, Mrs. Johnson when he's talking to you, even if she wants to be called Jane to her face.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Autumn

Yeah, I can understand the frustration of wanting to raise your children to address people the "right" way. But if the reason behind that is respect and manners, and yet you insist on it despite the other person's wishes, it seems that's in contrast with respect and manners. Not sure there's a way for you both to get what you want out of this. I would draw a new line - when speaking to you you can still insist they use the form of address you want, but respect what other people want to be called to their face.

EDIT: by which I mean you can still ask your kid to call Jane Johnson, Mrs. Johnson when he's talking to you, even if she wants to be called Jane to her face.

Like I said above, I really, really, really don't get the vibe that it's as much as a "preference" as what Subby said: just trying to be "gracious" by letting her be more informal.

[Autumn]

Yes, I definitely think most people are trying to put you and the kid at ease by saying that. "Oh no, you don't have to call me that," thinking that you are doing it for their benefit, not your own. If you have a good relation, saying "We'd like him to address you this way" should work for those people. But if they parent differently it can get touchy, then they start worrying whether you're upset their kids don't address you that way, etc.

[King of New York]

I'd be more concerned about getting Carter to say "please" instead of "pwease"

[JonInMiddleGA]

This was actually not what I thought it was going to be about. (I was expecting it to be a "Mr. Ben" thing, a custom that I was only introduced to after we moved to Monticello).

Old-school as I tend to be, I think I land more in the camp that Coffee Warlord is talking about.

-- I don't see any malice aforethought here at all (not as described)
-- I put considerable stock in the addressee's wishes on the matter

And I specifically disagree with you - in certain circumstances - on the parenthetical note you made about ("... or a 16 year old").

A couple of instances come to mind that shape my thoughts/feelings.
1) Two girls that grew through their teen years next door to us in Monticello. We were always "Mr. Jon" and "Miss Mary-Ellen". That was fine, downright quaint even, when they were 14, 16, even 19. Those young ladies are now 30ish ... and it drives me half-bonkers that they can't lose the habit to this day. We are, for all intents & purposes, equals as far as I'm concerned. There's no honorific title necessary for them to address me (and honestly hasn't been in a number of years). They've long since transcending being "the neighbor's kids" to being very dear friends. For cryin' out loud even their husbands picked it up & used it. In hindsight I wish they had become more informal sooner rather than to have gotten so stuck on it that it feels like being called "Old Jon" everytime they address me.

2) Circumstances & age. It's probably a very small subset of situations but with the HS kids that I deal with on the webcast, I would honestly prefer that some of them simply switch to "Jon" rather than "Mr. Whatever". There's tiers/degrees to my relationship with the various kids but honestly, I think I'd be more comfortable with at least some of them just calling me Jon, our dealings are often more collegial than adult/student and it actually kind of throws me off a little bit when they do it. It's a far less pronounced discomfort than the first situation but it does kind of make me twitchy sometimes.

I think the question may really boil down to one of priorities. I'd probably argue, at least generally, in favor of it being more polite to respect the addressees wishes than to stand on a formality that they seem not to prefer.
Isn't there something essential in "being polite" about not making someone else uncomfortable? If not by definition then by some practical sense of the word?

edit to add: I was typing this while you addressed the matter of not getting a sense that it was a strong preference on their part. Just take that into account while reading I guess.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

It's about RESPECT.

Something that is all too lacking in today's world.

I remember when I bought my first home. One of my elderly neighbors introduced himself as "Mr. Moore." That let me know right there and then that he expected me to respect him as an elder, that we were not on the same level. I respected him, and remembered his name over most of the other neighbors (I'm terrible with names)

[ISiddiqui]

As stated above by others, it's a personal preference thing IMO as to how the person would like to be called. I teach Kids Church 2-3 times a month and some people "on stage" and in small groups want to be called and call other adults/leaders as Mr. X and Ms. Y, but I don't really care if the kids in my small group call me Imran.

I am more horrified that you thought the OP was a "fairly long post"

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

This was actually not what I thought it was going to be about. (I was expecting it to be a "Mr. Ben" thing, a custom that I was only introduced to after we moved to Monticello).

Old-school as I tend to be, I think I land more in the camp that Coffee Warlord is talking about.

-- I don't see any malice aforethought here at all (not as described)
-- I put considerable stock in the addressee's wishes on the matter

And I specifically disagree with you - in certain circumstances - on the parenthetical note you made about ("... or a 16 year old").

A couple of instances come to mind that shape my thoughts/feelings.
1) Two girls that grew through their teen years next door to us in Monticello. We were always "Mr. Jon" and "Miss Mary-Ellen". That was fine, downright quaint even, when they were 14, 16, even 19. Those young ladies are now 30ish ... and it drives me half-bonkers that they can't lose the habit to this day. We are, for all intents & purposes, equals as far as I'm concerned. There's no honorific title necessary for them to address me (and honestly hasn't been in a number of years). They've long since transcending being "the neighbor's kids" to being very dear friends. For cryin' out loud even their husbands picked it up & used it. In hindsight I wish they had become more informal sooner rather than to have gotten so stuck on it that it feels like being called "Old Jon" everytime they address me.

2) Circumstances & age. It's probably a very small subset of situations but with the HS kids that I deal with on the webcast, I would honestly prefer that some of them simply switch to "Jon" rather than "Mr. Whatever". There's tiers/degrees to my relationship with the various kids but honestly, I think I'd be more comfortable with at least some of them just calling me Jon, our dealings are often more collegial than adult/student and it actually kind of throws me off a little bit when they do it. It's a far less pronounced discomfort than the first situation but it does kind of make me twitchy sometimes.

I think the question may really boil down to one of priorities. I'd probably argue, at least generally, in favor of it being more polite to respect the addressees wishes than to stand on a formality that they seem not to prefer.
Isn't there something essential in "being polite" about not making someone else uncomfortable? If not by definition then by some practical sense of the word?

edit to add: I was typing this while you addressed the matter of not getting a sense that it was a strong preference on their part. Just take that into account while reading I guess.

Heh. Interesting comment about the 16-year-olds. Of course hundreds of teenagers simply called me "Ben" as an adult due to my role in YoungLife, some of whom have become dear friends (3 former YL kids were groomsmen at my wedding, even.) I can see how that'd be a little weird for you. My former coaches do seem to like being called "Coach ____," though, so I guess it's a matter of the particular circumstances.

And yeah, I get what you're saying about part of "being polite" not making the other person uncomfortable. As I said, SWMBO and I try our best to remain outside the parenting-style arguments here. It's pretty nuts.

[miked]

I also think alot of it is about the age as well. Ayla's teachers are all Ms. Firstname, like Ms. Tiffany, and Ms. Rosy, and that is the way to school does it. We try to have her call people by their last names (like Mr. Smith, etc), but I think the times are just different now and calling people by their first names is just more accepted. Plus, I really hate when people make their 3 or 4 year olds call me Dr. Davis...it's nice and all, but they have no idea what it really means and it's not all that important to me at that age/level.

[lungs]

I prefer not to be called by my last name.

[Fidatelo]

I was always taught to address my elders as "Mr./Mrs. Johnson". I'm now 34 and cannot address any of my parents friends by their first names, but they all seem to dislike being called "Mr./Mrs." at this point (I guess just how John dislikes his neighbor kids doing that now that they are grown up). I have the same issue with my in-laws.

Problem is, I can't get past it. So how do I deal with it? I just never address these people by name. Ever. It gets awkward.

[JediKooter]

I was always of the understanding, that it is what that person wants to be addressed as. You always start off with the Mr or Mrs, but, if they inform you that they prefer something else, then that's what you go with. That's the most respectful way to do it. However, when it's just you and your kids, that's different. So if you and Carter were talking about Jane and he knows to call adults Mr or Mrs, he should be calling her Mrs. Johnson in his conversations with you.

So if Mrs. Johnson prefers to be called Jane, then that's what she is addressed as when speaking to her. If her kids call you Ben and you do not want to be called Ben, then she should be informed that you prefer to be called Mr. Skydog and that's what her kids should address you as.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by M GO BLUE!!!

It's about RESPECT.

Something that is all too lacking in today's world.

In the final analysis, that's what we're going for here. We're probably less than a year away from her first visit to a neighbor's house without us being there. She's starting to become good friends with Ada from two doors down (I always think of Bruhman From the Fif' Floor whenever I say that,) and we love and trust Ada's parents, so they'll probably be the first. We want her to understand that when she's at Ada's house, Ada and her sisters are peers. Dr. and Mrs. Campbell, though, are different from Ada; they are authority figures that she needs to respect and obey.

[digamma]

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

I was always taught to address my elders as "Mr./Mrs. Johnson". I'm now 34 and cannot address any of my parents friends by their first names, but they all seem to dislike being called "Mr./Mrs." at this point (I guess just how John dislikes his neighbor kids doing that now that they are grown up). I have the same issue with my in-laws.

Problem is, I can't get past it. So how do I deal with it? I just never address these people by name. Ever. It gets awkward.

+1 Still call my parents friends Mr./Mrs. to this day. And I had a funny conversation with my sister-in-law over the holidays. It was her first time bringing a significant other for the holidays, whereas my wife and I have been married 10 years. She was asking what her s.o. should call their parents. I said "Well, I've made it 10+ years avoiding calling them by their first names, he'll come up with something."


We have fallen into having our son (still only 20 months but learning to talk) call our closest friends Aunt and Uncle [first name]. I think this is partially because we don't have family nearby, but it also may be a sign of changing times.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by digamma

+1 Still call my parents friends Mr./Mrs. to this day. And I had a funny conversation with my sister-in-law over the holidays. It was her first time bringing a significant other for the holidays, whereas my wife and I have been married 10 years. She was asking what her s.o. should call their parents. I said "Well, I've made it 10+ years avoiding calling them by their first names, he'll come up with something."

Heh. Yeah, that is funny. I called my in-laws by their formal names up until the time we got married, but within a short time after the wedding, they started referring to themselves by first name when calling on the phone ("Hey Ben, it's Susan...") so I took that queue and made the switch then. That said, the fact that I don't particularly respect them probably made that transition a little easier...

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by M GO BLUE!!!

It's about RESPECT.

Something that is all too lacking in today's world.

I remember when I bought my first home. One of my elderly neighbors introduced himself as "Mr. Moore." That let me know right there and then that he expected me to respect him as an elder, that we were not on the same level. I respected him, and remembered his name over most of the other neighbors (I'm terrible with names)

I'm sorry, but fuck him. You're right, it is all about respect...and he showed you none.

Once you're an adult, you're on the same level regardless of age. You want me to call you Mr. Moore? Fine, call me Mr. Blackadar. Or don't call me at all. I understand the "weirded out" thing when you've been addressing your parent's friends for 20 years as Mr. and Mrs. Jones. It's fine to continue to address then as Mr. and Mrs. Jones. Of course, it's also ok to call them Bob and Sue.

But a new neighbor? Uh, no. I live next door to Jim Zorn's parents - yeah, the old Seahawks QB and Redskins coach. They're approaching 80 (actually, I think Art is 80). It's Art and Diane, not Mr. and Mrs. Zorn. Respect is a two way street.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

I'm sorry, but fuck him. You're right, it is all about respect...and he showed you none.

Once you're an adult, you're on the same level regardless of age. You want me to call you Mr. Moore? Fine, call me Mr. Blackadar. Or don't call me at all. I understand the "weirded out" thing when you've been addressing your parent's friends for 20 years as Mr. and Mrs. Jones. It's fine to continue to address then as Mr. and Mrs. Jones. Of course, it's also ok to call them Bob and Sue.

But a new neighbor? Uh, no. I live next door to Jim Zorn's parents - yeah, the old Seahawks QB and Redskins coach. They're approaching 80 (actually, I think Art is 80). It's Art and Diane, not Mr. and Mrs. Zorn. Respect is a two way street.

+1 on all points.

Once you are an adult you are on equal plains. I live in a building with a lot of older people and call them all by their first names. I would be insulted if they expected me to call them Mr. X. IT would be like they were treating me like a child, not like an adult who has his own family, ownes a home, etc...

[digamma]

His mama call him Barack, I'm gonna call him Barack.

[Vince, Pt. II]

I've actually struggled with this as an adult. Growing up, I was always taught that adults were Mr. or Mrs. (Dr./Coach/Whatever) So-and-so. As an adult, when I now introduce people to family members or friends of the generation before mine, I'm at a loss as to how to title them. Personally, I would refer to them the same way I always have - but I'm very aware that I am definitely in the minority in that form of address.

The transition from child to adult is what has changed this for most of my peers, so it's hard to find the sweet spot where first name address becomes comfortable/proper. Even my parents (who taught me the courtesy in the first place) insist that my friends call them by their first names.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by M GO BLUE!!!

It's about RESPECT.

Something that is all too lacking in today's world.

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

In the final analysis, that's what we're going for here.

Fair enough, but aren't there many ways where you can show respect for others beyond how you refer to them by name?

[Vince, Pt. II]

I guess what I'm trying to say is that my peers tend to think like Blackie and Lathum have mentioned - once you're an adult, you're on the same level and that courteous distinction and formality can drop. I don't know that I go along with this line of thought, I'm a little more along Ben & M GO BLUE's line of thought in that it's about respect, and I'm perfectly ok with giving my elders that distinction.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

I guess what I'm trying to say is that my peers tend to think like Blackie and Lathum have mentioned - once you're an adult, you're on the same level and that courteous distinction and formality can drop. I don't know that I go along with this line of thought, I'm a little more along Ben & M GO BLUE's line of thought in that it's about respect, and I'm perfectly ok with giving my elders that distinction.

Well, and the other potential variable there is the particular old person in question. If it's true that part of being polite is to respect what people want to be called, then it can create a quandary. I know for a fact that some older people, particularly some in their 70s and up (my mother is one of them) find it disrespectful that someone under 50 would call them by their first name. As a result, it's quite possible to find yourself in a situation where you offend the older person by introducing them by their first name, and offend the younger person by introducing someone to them by the formal name. *shurg*

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Logan

Fair enough, but aren't there many ways where you can show respect for others beyond how you refer to them by name?

Sure, but an almost-three-year-old needs something relatively simple and concrete.

Mr./Mrs. = do what they say..follow them
Firstname= peer..ok to lead them

As she grows, she'll certainly learn more ways to show respect, but for now, this is the simple/concrete thing that we've chosen

[Barkeep49]

I am firmly of the camp of calling people as they preferred to be called. As a teacher/administrator whenever I call parents for the first time I always start off with Ms. or Mr. So and So and then take my lead from there. Most of our parents prefer to go by their first names and so I address them as such, but some prefer an honorific which I'm happy to give. I honestly think it's more respectful to teach a child to call someone by the name that a person prefers and to act in a certain way around people who deserve respect.

A few name stories of my own.

I student taught for my former 5th grade teacher. I could never bring myself to call him Paul. When other students were around, calling him Mr. Grant was never an issue, but when it was just the two of us, or when I was privately talking to another teacher, I went to great lengths to avoid calling him any name. Through his help, I landed my first job in his wife's school. She acted as a mentor to me, but I had no problems calling her Kris. Of course my hang-up about her husband's name continued.

This year at school two students who I'd coached enrolled. As a coach, I've always been addressed as Coach Bar. Of course at school I'm Mr. Keep. After some negotiation, as these aren't students who I directly deal with very often, we compromised on them calling me by my initials.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Lathum

+1 on all points.

Once you are an adult you are on equal plains. I live in a building with a lot of older people and call them all by their first names. I would be insulted if they expected me to call them Mr. X. IT would be like they were treating me like a child, not like an adult who has his own family, ownes a home, etc...

Equal plains - yes. Informal plains - not necessarily. For me, everybody is Mr./Mrs. until they request otherwise or we reach a certain level of familiarity. It doesn't matter if they are the same age as me, younger, or older. Starting with too much respect and shifting to the proper amount seems like a better situation than starting with too little and having to shift to more. It doesn't have to be a "you are better than me" thing.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by BrianD

Equal plains - yes. Informal plains - not necessarily. For me, everybody is Mr./Mrs. until they request otherwise or we reach a certain level of familiarity. It doesn't matter if they are the same age as me, younger, or older. Starting with too much respect and shifting to the proper amount seems like a better situation than starting with too little and having to shift to more. It doesn't have to be a "you are better than me" thing.

IMO there is nothing informal about calling someone by their first name in a social setting. As long as you aren't in a business setting or some other setting where there is a culture of formality there is no reason to have to call some Mr. Mrs., imo

[EagleFan]

It's all about respect and I don't think that is too much to ask. I have run into that a lot with my daughters' friends that call my wife and I by our first names like it's nothing. If I politely try to correct them into at least a Mr. I get a blank stare like it's a foreign concept.

There are even some that call their own parents by their first name, that just blows my mind.

I still call teachers that I had back in school Mr. or Mrs. when I see them (or my friends' parents for that matter; except for the ones that asked us to call them Ma or Pa but that is even completed with their last name).

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

I guess what I'm trying to say is that my peers tend to think like Blackie and Lathum have mentioned - once you're an adult, you're on the same level and that courteous distinction and formality can drop. I don't know that I go along with this line of thought, I'm a little more along Ben & M GO BLUE's line of thought in that it's about respect, and I'm perfectly ok with giving my elders that distinction.

Hey, if they want me to call them Mr. Jones, then as I said, they can call me Mr. Blackadar. I'm ok with that, though our relationship will remain formal. Also, I could easily see myself 20 years ago calling a 70 year old man "Mr.", because I'd be a young man in my 20s and there's enough of a gulf in age there that I could see myself doing that.

But after around 30, all bets are off. If an "elder" insisted that people in their 30s should refer to him as "Mr. So-and So", it's because they're being a pompous jackass. As in Blue's example, fuck that. Respect between peers is earned, not given.

Of course, at my current age, if anyone asked me to call them "Mr.", then they better be as old as Methuselah. Otherwise, I'll be tempted to hit them with my walker.

[cartman]

Just always use 'Sup, G?' and see where things go from there.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

But after around 30, all bets are off. If an "elder" insisted that people in their 30s should refer to him as "Mr. So-and So", it's because they're being a pompous jackass. As in Blue's example, fuck that. Respect between peers is earned, not given.

Hey that's exactly the way I felt when I used to do technical support and someone insisted on me calling them Dr. So-and-so.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

Hey that's exactly the way I felt when I used to do technical support and someone insisted on me calling them Dr. So-and-so.

I've occasionally thought about getting my PhD just so I can make people call me Dr.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Lathum

IMO there is nothing informal about calling someone by their first name in a social setting. As long as you aren't in a business setting or some other setting where there is a culture of formality there is no reason to have to call some Mr. Mrs., imo

You don't have to do it anywhere, I just think it sets a nice tone.

[Buccaneer]

[question authority rant]
Despite my "elderly" status, I have not nor will I want anyone to address me as "Mr. Bucc". If they do, I get suspicious as they are trying to sell me something or want something from me. Even at work where we have a CIO, VPs and a CEO - all are addressed by their first names. If my name or your name has not been shared, then sir/ma'am would probably do, but even that feels weird at times.

Personal titles are a way to enforce classism (as in the example from BLUE), which I do not like. I saw this more in the South than anywhere else I've spent time, and it's not just between races but between outsiders and non-outsiders as well. No one is better than another person (their actions are a different story, I think). No one should be inferior at face value when meeting another person just because that person may be of a different age/generation, skin color, social status or other characteristics. Alternatively, titles that are earned carry more respect for me - like doctor, pastor, reverend, president, etc. - and those mean more to me than an implied social stratification.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by BrianD

You don't have to do it anywhere, I just think it sets a nice tone.

We'll differ on that. If you call me Mr. Blackadar in a social setting, I'm going to think you're very socially awkward....or just downright weird.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

[question authority rant]
Despite my "elderly" status, I have not nor will I want anyone to address me as "Mr. Bucc". If they do, I get suspicious as they are trying to sell me something or want something from me. Even at work where we have a CIO, VPs and a CEO - all are addressed by their first names. If my name or your name has not been shared, then sir/ma'am would probably do, but even that feels weird at times.

Personal titles are a way to enforce classism (as in the example from BLUE), which I do not like. I saw this more in the South than anywhere else I've spent time, and it's not just between races but between outsiders and non-outsiders as well. No one is better than another person (their actions are a different story, I think). No one should be inferior at face value when meeting another person just because that person may be of a different age/generation, skin color, social status or other characteristics. Alternatively, titles that are earned carry more respect for me - like doctor, pastor, reverend, president, etc. - and those mean more to me than an implied social stratification.

Good point. I have personally witnessed someone introduce themselves to someone of one race/religion as "Bob" and to someone of a different race/religion as "Mr. Smith". Closet bigots are some of the worst types...