2012 MLB Thread (Cabrera Gets Triple Crown, first since Yaz 1967)

[rowech]

Originally Posted by lungs

Yeah, TMZ bullshit. I just heard on MLB Network that the test wasn't sent in a timely manner.

Whole system is starting to sound bad. Manny gets knocked to 50, now this. How much stock is there in this system when the stars get off easier or totally?

[lungs]

Originally Posted by rowech

Whole system is starting to sound bad. Manny gets knocked to 50, now this. How much stock is there in this system when the stars get off easier or totally?

The beauty of the thing is that we wouldn't even know about this if somebody with MLB didn't see fit to leak this story to ESPN before the appeals process had even taken place.

Now MLB is concerned about the confidence in their testing program? Don't leak the fucking results before the anonymous appeals process has played out then. There is a reason the process was set up as such in the CBA, and its pretty clear MLB fucked this whole thing up.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by lungs

Yeah, TMZ bullshit. I just heard on MLB Network that the test wasn't sent in a timely manner.

Which, if that's why he won the appeal, that's not exoneration. That's more like the Mets trading K-Rod because his agents didn't file the no-trade paperwork. It doesn't mean the clause wasn't negotiated (or that Braun didn't 'roid). It means that somebody fell asleep on the job.

Good for the Brewers in that they aren't losing his bat for two months, but that's the only 'good' I see coming out of this scenario if that is, in fact, why he won.

[lungs]

Braun's not exonerated, no doubt. Sounding like he won his appeal because they didn't send it in the allotted time. It's a complete technicality. The public is still free to burn him in effigy.

[Ryan S]

Originally Posted by lungs

All cases come down to the independent guy. Union always votes against suspension, MLB always votes for. This is the first time the third person has found for the player so there has to be something there.

It makes you wonder why they have MLB and Union representation on the panel. Why not have three independent panelists with MLB and Union observers if they insist on being part of the process?

[lungs]

Another interesting theory is that Braun actually leaked this. If so, I take back what I said.

[bhlloy]

What a whitewash. Get an expensive lawyer and get off on a technicality. Braun might have been one of my favorite players in the game before this, and probably would still be if he had the balls to say I screwed up (even unintentionally) and serve the suspension.

[bhlloy]

DOLA - as for Braun leaking the results that sounds conveniently likely but who knows. He beat the system. Yay him

[Ryan S]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

What a whitewash. Get an expensive lawyer and get off on a technicality. Braun might have been one of my favorite players in the game before this, and probably would still be if he had the balls to say I screwed up (even unintentionally) and serve the suspension.

Not sure that is fair on Braun. If the correct testing procedure was not followed you can't suspend someone.

If a test is not handled properly, then shows record breaking figures (apparently twice as high as ever seen before), it strikes me that there has been foul play somewhere along the line.

[lungs]

I think I'm going to start accusing people of being anti-Semitic if they continue to doubt Braun. Jew lawyers helped a Jew beat the system. Yeah I said it. (very tongue in cheek for those serious ass holes out there that think I'm serious, Braun doesn't practice Judaism)

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by lungs

The beauty of the thing is that we wouldn't even know about this if somebody with MLB didn't see fit to leak this story to ESPN before the appeals process had even taken place.

Now MLB is concerned about the confidence in their testing program? Don't leak the fucking results before the anonymous appeals process has played out then. There is a reason the process was set up as such in the CBA, and its pretty clear MLB fucked this whole thing up.

"". MLB has no respect at all for the confidentiality agreements they have reached with their union; when they're found out for idiots, I'm all for it being publicized.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

What a whitewash. Get an expensive lawyer and get off on a technicality. Braun might have been one of my favorite players in the game before this, and probably would still be if he had the balls to say I screwed up (even unintentionally) and serve the suspension.

To quote Craig Calcaterra:

In almost all cases, the people who say that someone “got off on a technicality” or took advantage of a “loophole” really mean “I think the SOB was guilty and because of that I don’t care if the proper safeguards and protocols were followed!”

[molson]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

To quote Craig Calcaterra:

In almost all cases, the people who say that someone “got off on a technicality” or took advantage of a “loophole” really mean “I think the SOB was guilty and because of that I don’t care if the proper safeguards and protocols were followed!”

I don't think it's unreasonable to look at the relationship between the evidence of guilt and the loophole or technicality. Even in a criminal case, you don't necessarily get off if the police officer or a judge makes a mistake, if the mistake is harmless.

What's the harm that comes from shipping a sample 24 hours late? Is it literally only that someone may have broken into the lab over those 24 hours and spiked the sample? Without more, I think we can look at that as something of a longshot and still see this as much more likely a case of Braun simply cheating.

Edit: The standard of proof would matter too, whatever they have in the contract for appeals. Is it preponderance of evidence? Substantial evidence? Beyond a reasonable doubt? Or, they could certainly just spell out, "any deviations from this testing protocol must result in the player winning".

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by molson

I don't think it's unreasonable to look at the relationship between the evidence of guilt and the loophole or technicality. Even in a criminal case, you don't necessarily get off if the police officer or a judge makes a mistake, if the mistake is harmless.

What's the harm that comes from shipping a sample 24 hours late? Is it literally only that someone may have broken into the lab over those 24 hours and spiked the sample? Without more, I think we can look at that as something of a longshot and still see this as much more likely a case of Braun simply cheating.

I know nothing about blood or drug tests, but if I had to guess, I am thinking that time frame is in place because the results get more hokey over time, the longer you wait. The margin for potential error grows too large after a time and the accuracy of the test result is thus in question.

[Scoobz0202]

Yea, I am interested if something more leaks, because correct me if I am wrong but is that really the reason he was let off? If so, I agree, he should have had his suspension reversed because protocol was broken.

But, that does not mean I am saying, "Yay, go Braun!" either. Until I read from somebody more educated then me that shows that a substance sitting like that can have the concentration increase somehow, or a little something more than "It could have been spiked," my opinion will be heavily laden with doubt. So, while I agree with the decision if the protocol was broken, color me skeptical about Braun.

I'll remain indifferent for the most part until Braun, or somebody, produces something. If there is no explanation, I'll respect his privacy, but that doesn't mean I won't think he is a possible cheater.

[lungs]

I'll be interested to see what Will Carroll's article says. He seems to be one of the few people covering this that has any actual, you know, medical knowledge.

This is the key tweet in my eyes:
Will Carroll ‏ @injuryexpert
The Braun decision was based on HOW the sample was corrupted. Panel was shown exactly what happened, why result was invalid.

[QuikSand]

If Oswalt manages to pull off this "I'll sign once things take shape, and someone really needs me" stunt, I think it might be an intriguing tipping point in major sports, which we have tiptoed around for a while now.

[sterlingice]

Well, wouldn't the credit go to Clemens for his shenanigans with that? Or Brett Favre- tho waiting through preseason is an art in the NFL.

SI

[Ksyrup]

Yeah, that's hardly new. Pedro did it a few years ago, too.

As far as Braun, I really don't give a shit one way or the other. Just play some damn ball so we can forget about all the irrelevant crap.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

If Oswalt manages to pull off this "I'll sign once things take shape, and someone really needs me" stunt, I think it might be an intriguing tipping point in major sports, which we have tiptoed around for a while now.

Roger Clemens says hello.

[Ksyrup]

Andy Pettitte basically did the same thing when he retired, left the door open to join the Yankees mid-season.

[spleen1015]

Some interesting stuff on the DP Show just now.

He won his appeal because the agreement between MLB and the MLBPA says samples get sent to the lab within 24 hours. Braun's wasn't.

He tested positive for synthetic testosterone. His sample was first tested to make sure it was a good sample. It didn't breakdown while it spent the weekend in the refrigerator.

It was mentioned that he has taken a lie detector. Does anyone know what the results of that were?

So, essentially he is guilty, but MLB's rules can't be enforced because of the CBA.

[Ksyrup]

Not Bud Selig ‏ @fakebudselig
Folks, I'm torn on the Braun case. Nothing wrong with keeping urine in a fridge. That's why it's called Miller Park.

[MrBug708]

Rick Caruso pulls out of the Dodger sale because McCourt won't sell the parking lots in the sale for the Dodgers

Sad

[QuikSand]

Yes, I'm aware of what we have seen before with close to washed-up guys like Clemens, Pettitte, and Charles Haley. It's not completely new.

But for a guy who still has several theoretical years left in him, it doesn't seem like a stretch to me that this could be a pretty viable move to consider. And I wonder what it might do to the concepts of free agency if it really happened. What if a guy like Vincent Jackson just decided he wasn't thrilled with his guaranteed money offers, so he'll just wait and see what team starts out fairly hot and decides it wants to make a move to become a serious contender -- so he signs in week 5 with them for a fat one year deal, or something?

Maybe I'm seeing more of a difference between Oswalt and the previous cases -- but it seems to me this might be a turning point for more than one sport. Wouldn't a strategy like this have made a ton of sense for a guy like Shaq during the last 4-5 years of his career? (Yes, I know in the NBA you get to take half the regular season off anyway) But what about a team like the Patriots/Packers basically working out a deal with a moderate impact player, agreeing that they will make the playoffs anyway, so stay fresh and we'll cut your check when we're three games away from the playoffs. Would that be a good development?

[Ksyrup]

Sixteen-year-old blogger scoops everyone on the Ryan Braun PED story | February

[Suburban Rhythm]

93.7 The Fan Hosts Told Not To Cover Frank Coonelly DUI Story - SB Nation Pittsburgh

The Pittsburgh sports-talk station that reached an agreement in September to broadcast the Pirates’ games has now told its hosts they may not discuss the situation, or to field calls on the air from listeners interested in talking about it. The topic apparently may only be discussed on the station in news updates. The decision by station management at 93.7 KDKA-FM, The Fan—a CBS Radio-owned property—is currently being tossed around Yinzer circles on Twitter, and a source has just confirmed it to me directly.

[Ksyrup]

I don't see what Oswalt's doing as anything other than a very rich athlete who has different priorities at this point in his life. I don't see this as some game-changing decision that could alter the concept of FA forever. I think practically speaking, Shaq did this the last few years of his career - didn't he go from contender to contender (I can think of Miami, Boston, Phoenix, and Cleveland), playing 40-60 games a year, skipping practices, pacing himself for the playoffs, AND drawing a big salary? What's different?

I don't know... Oswalt seems to be doing exactly what Pedro Martinez did with the Phillies a couple of years ago. Sure, he probably has more career left than Pedro or Clemens did, but (a) he's been injured quite a lot the last few years, and (b) he has always come off as the type of guy who would be more likely to retire 2 years earlier than you'd expect rather than stick around a couple of years past his prime.

[Easy Mac]

Someone should start the Ryan Braun death clock

2012 Spring Training -- Ryan Braun of Milwaukee Brewers says test system failed - ESPN

"If I had done this intentionally or unintentionally, I'd be the first one to step up and say I did it," Braun said. "I would bet my life this substance never entered my body."

[stevew]

Regardless of this outcome, if I make it to a Pirates/Brewers game this year you better god damn believe I'm going to be chanting "Steroids" loud as fuck at Braun. All class here.

[bhlloy]

So it just so happens that the first ever case where procedure wasn't followed exactly and results were contaminated was the reigning MVP and a guy who of guilty would be a massive black eye for MLB?

I mean I guess it's possible that every single minor leaguer and major leaguer who didn't make the headlines tried to appeal and everything was legitimately done, but I think it's more likely Braun has access to infinite resources, played this perfectly and/or MLB despite their protestations really wasn't that interested in making this stand up. Like I said before, good for him but doesn't mean it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside

[lungs]

Originally Posted by stevew

Regardless of this outcome, if I make it to a Pirates/Brewers game this year you better god damn believe I'm going to be chanting "Steroids" loud as fuck at Braun. All class here.

Go for it, Braun will simply continue to murder Pirate pitching and the Brewers will continue to murder the Pirates in general

[JediKooter]

What would Barry Bonds do?

[bhlloy]

There is an article on Y! Sports by Passan that sums the whole thing up for me pretty well. Can't link to it on my phone but I'm in agreement with it pretty much 100%

[Butter]

This one?

Braun ruling deals blow to Selig's testing program - MLB - Yahoo! Sports

[bhlloy]

Yup

[stevew]

The Oswalt thing is somewhat different because I think he was looking at taking a yearly rate at which he was certainly not pleased. I'd equate this next contract to one of the NFL one year "make good" deals. At this point, Oswalt can't probably get 6 million for one complete season. It's a pretty good wager to be financially secure enough to say fuck that and hold out for at least 2 million a month.

From a Freudian aspect, his arm only has X throws left in it probably. So it's wise to maximize them. I think the NFL type comparison would be more apt if it involved a running back. None of this years backs are that great of an example, but maybe Michael Bush hates all the deals he sees and instead waits for the first major RB injury and plays 10 games there for 5 million bucks?

[molson]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

This one?

Braun ruling deals blow to Selig's testing program - MLB - Yahoo! Sports

"“This,” one baseball official said, “is like a criminal getting off because he wasn’t read his Miranda rights.”"

No, it's not even like that. A defendant who makes admissions to police very well might not have if he was reminded that he didn't have to say anything. It's a real enough risk that the courts will exclude any custodial admission made when there's no miranda warning.

Here, there's zero connection between the required procedure and evidence of guilt. Keeping a sample in a refrigerator for less than two days doesn't impact the testing accuracy (from what I've read, correct me if I'm wrong).

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

Someone should start the Ryan Braun death clock

2012 Spring Training -- Ryan Braun of Milwaukee Brewers says test system failed - ESPN

Come on, everyone knows that if you don't get a urine sample to FedEx right away then it will develop synthetic testosterone.

[Ryan S]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

So it just so happens that the first ever case where procedure wasn't followed exactly and results were contaminated was the reigning MVP and a guy who of guilty would be a massive black eye for MLB?

I mean I guess it's possible that every single minor leaguer and major leaguer who didn't make the headlines tried to appeal and everything was legitimately done, but I think it's more likely Braun has access to infinite resources, played this perfectly and/or MLB despite their protestations really wasn't that interested in making this stand up. Like I said before, good for him but doesn't mean it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside

This is only the first case we know about where the procedure has not been followed and the appeal has been successful. For all we know this could have happened before, but the news did not leak. If this had been handled the way it should have been handled, we would not have known anything about this case.

I am not sure that Braun would have access to better lawyers than MLB. Both sides could afford pretty expensive lawyers

The problem with this case is that if a result so extreme comes from a sample that has been mishandled there is going to be reasonable doubt about the integrity of the sample.

MLB can fix this in the future by following the correct procedures for all future tests.

[Butter]

The point is this wasn't "mishandled". It was mishandled according to the letter of the agreement between MLB and MLBPA. But it seems pretty clear that this happens all the time and the samples are not subject to additional contamination due to the longer waiting period.

[Ksyrup]

Still a breach of protocol that has to invalidate the suspension. What it doesn't do is invalidate the test in most peoples' eyes, which is where I think some people are taking issue with Braun's PC. He's acting like they uncovered evidence that someone intentionally tampered with the sample. At best, only the people who handled it know that for sure. Even Braun can't say definitively whether he accidentally took something that might have caused the positive.

Damn I wish games would start tomorrow.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Suburban Rhythm

93.7 The Fan Hosts Told Not To Cover Frank Coonelly DUI Story - SB Nation Pittsburgh

I was shocked at how long they kept that out of the papers. More than 2 months after the arrest.

[Ryan S]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

The point is this wasn't "mishandled". It was mishandled according to the letter of the agreement between MLB and MLBPA. But it seems pretty clear that this happens all the time and the samples are not subject to additional contamination due to the longer waiting period.

That is probably true, but if the agreement is that the sample is sent ASAP, this needs to be done in ALL cases, otherwise administering the test is pointless as it will fail on appeal. MLB has no excuses for not getting this right.

As I mentioned in my previous post, we have no idea how many times this has happened before, so it could be that MLB has botched a number of tests.

It would be interesting to find out exactly why the arbitrator made this decision rather than having to speculate based on the rumor mill.

[Ksyrup]

he has to issue a written decision within 30 days.

[SackAttack]

From what I was reading, the security seals weren't tampered with, and the sample did not suffer degradation during the extra time involved.

The defense didn't even try to argue the validity of the sample, or to argue how the testosterone levels were so insanely high. They went straight for the 'LOL he didn't mail it within the collectively bargained time period if it doesn't ship you must acquit' defense.

And now that it's been thrown out for that reason, Braun (and some of his friends on the Packers including Rodgers and Matthews) are trying to spin that as "not guilty, bitches, he didn't do it."

[DanGarion]

I love this.


Brandon McCarthy ‏ @BMcCarthy32
"Hey hun, what's this next to the olives?" "That's a bottle of Ryan Braun's piss." "Oh."

[rowech]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

From what I was reading, the security seals weren't tampered with, and the sample did not suffer degradation during the extra time involved.

The defense didn't even try to argue the validity of the sample, or to argue how the testosterone levels were so insanely high. They went straight for the 'LOL he didn't mail it within the collectively bargained time period if it doesn't ship you must acquit' defense.

And now that it's been thrown out for that reason, Braun (and some of his friends on the Packers including Rodgers and Matthews) are trying to spin that as "not guilty, bitches, he didn't do it."

Guilty as crap. Reporters will eventually uncover a lot more to this story. I really believe, Braun threatened a big lawsuit because of the leaking of test results to ESPN, baseball compromised knowing they were screwed, came up with this absurd story, pieced it together and presented it as we see it for public consumption.

He will always be guilty in my mind and I hope people uncover the truth so this posturing will look worse over time.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Still a breach of protocol that has to invalidate the suspension.

Why is that a given? I guess it could depend on the language of the agreement, but perfect protocol can be pretty elusive and is probably impossible. This isn't a material breach. But I guess that was the decision of the arbiter, that you just "can't suspend" in this circumstance, but that at least to me isn't a self-evident kind of point.

[molson]

I do wonder if the guy missing the fedex pickup deadline is the " highly unusual circumstances" that Braun said would exonerate him at the time. I doubt it, I imagine the attorneys dug up that little nugget later. If he really wants to clear his name, this would be a good time to explain what kind of circumstances he was talking about.