Werewolf XCVI: The Dark One and The Order of Righteousness (GAME OVER EVIL WINS) - Page 21

Passacaglia · 06-10-2009, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Autumn

FWIW, this information was in the rules.

Right. I wasn't trying to say that the info was not in the rules and that he was making it up or anything -- just that when I asked him about it, he wouldn't show me where in the rules it said that, which made me think someone else told him about it.

Autumn · 06-10-2009, 12:23 PM

If Pass told Abe/Clap that he was Arbitro then I don't know why Clap would release him if Clap was a wolf. At that point the DO was alive and they could have night killed Pass and taken care of that threat. THe only possibility I can see there is if Clap had already told Pass that he could release him, and then didn't want to renege and have pass publish a damning story.

But that seems unlikely. I think either Pass/Abe are both villager or both wolves.

RendeR · 06-10-2009, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Autumn

If Pass told Abe/Clap that he was Arbitro then I don't know why Clap would release him if Clap was a wolf. At that point the DO was alive and they could have night killed Pass and taken care of that threat. THe only possibility I can see there is if Clap had already told Pass that he could release him, and then didn't want to renege and have pass publish a damning story.

But that seems unlikely. I think either Pass/Abe are both villager or both wolves.

easiest way to settle that is to lynch one of them, but if its villager/villager we're hurting ourselves for little gain.

Autumn · 06-10-2009, 12:30 PM

Well, unless someone counter reveals as Arbitro I don't think we need to lynch.

The Jackal · 06-10-2009, 12:35 PM

I mean if we elect Pass as King and jail abe.. if pass trusts him won't he just release him?

Passacaglia · 06-10-2009, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Jackal

I mean if we elect Pass as King and jail abe.. if pass trusts him won't he just release him?

Post 992 would provide interesting reading for you.

The Jackal · 06-10-2009, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Post 992 would provide interesting reading for you.

Thanks.

The Jackal · 06-10-2009, 12:42 PM

Well for now:

ELECT PASS KING

Chief Rum · 06-10-2009, 01:12 PM

I would like to hear from Abe, but for the most part, Pass's story has vibed, and no one has come forth to deny his claim as Arbitro at this point. So I am up for him as king as well (barring further evidence to the contrary arising).

VOTE ELECT PASSACAGLIA KING

KWhit · 06-10-2009, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Autumn

If Pass told Abe/Clap that he was Arbitro then I don't know why Clap would release him if Clap was a wolf. At that point the DO was alive and they could have night killed Pass and taken care of that threat. THe only possibility I can see there is if Clap had already told Pass that he could release him, and then didn't want to renege and have pass publish a damning story.

But that seems unlikely. I think either Pass/Abe are both villager or both wolves.

They couldn't night kill him while he was in jail, right?

Maybe they released him so they could night kill him last night with the added benefit of possibly getting the heat off of clap.

Of course, once Schmidty duked the Dark One, they didn't need to nightkill pass any more since Arbitro isn't a threat to them any more.

Lathum · 06-10-2009, 01:17 PM

I am wondering if maybe Clap saw he was about to go down so he released Pass to try and gain trust?

KWhit · 06-10-2009, 01:17 PM

Overall, I'm getting a good vibe from Pass. His story seems legit. But clap? Not so much. It's hard to not let his odd play from last night color my suspicion, but Tyrith's posts regarding his likely innocence last night weird me out in a major way. He had like 5 posts saying we should move off of clap during the last hour before deadline last night.

KWhit · 06-10-2009, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum

I am wondering if maybe Clap saw he was about to go down so he released Pass to try and gain trust?

Or did he do it to try to divert suspicion towards Pass?

Passacaglia · 06-10-2009, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KWhit

They couldn't night kill him while he was in jail, right?

Maybe they released him so they could night kill him last night with the added benefit of possibly getting the heat off of clap.

Of course, once Schmidty duked the Dark One, they didn't need to nightkill pass any more since Arbitro isn't a threat to them any more.

For a while I thought they couldn't. Only the Dark One can attack people in jail, and I thought that as Arbitro I would slay him (which is part of the reason I was okay going to jail, the other part is that I genuinely did think I would be busy). I didn't think about how I lose my powers in jail, though, so the Dark One could have killed me there (I didn't tell clap that I screwed it up, though).

KWhit · 06-10-2009, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

For a while I thought they couldn't. Only the Dark One can attack people in jail, and I thought that as Arbitro I would slay him (which is part of the reason I was okay going to jail, the other part is that I genuinely did think I would be busy). I didn't think about how I lose my powers in jail, though, so the Dark One could have killed me there (I didn't tell clap that I screwed it up, though).

You're right.

Quote:

Players inside the jail may be scanned by the seer and may only be night killed by The Dark One himself.

Autumn · 06-10-2009, 01:27 PM

Oh you're right, only the DO can night kill in jail. I didn't realize that. Well, it's still possible they could have done so.

I basically agree that Clap/Abe is still not quite cleared, especially given Tyrith's seeming desire to clear him. But I keep thinking that it's unlikely a wolf would have that role that Clap/Abe seems to have.

VOTE TO ELECT PASSACAGLIA KING

Again, I hope if anyone has a counter reveal they will do it early.

Lathum · 06-10-2009, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Autumn

But I keep thinking that it's unlikely a wolf would have that role that Clap/Abe seems to have.

.

I don't. I also know Dubb is a big WoW player, I could easily seeing their being a rogue mechanic for a wolf where they could pick a lock or something

Telle · 06-10-2009, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum

I don't. I also know Dubb is a big WoW player, I could easily seeing their being a rogue mechanic for a wolf where they could pick a lock or something

But would they have the ability to converse with prisoners before releasing them? That doesn't fit the "rogue" role. Sounds more like he was a prison guard. But nothing says that a prison guard can't be a follower of the DO.

Passacaglia · 06-10-2009, 01:51 PM

DaddyTorgo · 06-10-2009, 01:53 PM

who dat?

Passacaglia · 06-10-2009, 01:59 PM

The Do

DaddyTorgo · 06-10-2009, 02:02 PM

who dey?

DaddyTorgo · 06-10-2009, 02:02 PM

some band?

DaddyTorgo · 06-10-2009, 02:03 PM

i never heard of?

Passacaglia · 06-10-2009, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

i never heard of?

Well I don't know if you've heard of them!

Although I'm leaning toward saying you haven't..

USFLTecmo · 06-10-2009, 02:08 PM

VOTE PASS KING

Based on my earlier post believing him.

SnDvls · 06-10-2009, 02:12 PM

Good Abe is here maybe he can shed some light on the jail break

Lathum · 06-10-2009, 02:17 PM

I the necro game I was a bad guy and had the ability to communicate with a good guy, so I wouldn't rule out that possibility

SnDvls · 06-10-2009, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnDvls

Good Abe is here maybe he can shed some light on the jail break

.......and nothing is said

Lathum · 06-10-2009, 02:50 PM

<----------------------------------
<----------------------------------

threadkiller

Abe Sargent · 06-10-2009, 02:52 PM

I am very busy in work tody aand I am not nearly caught up, so I will be unable to contnribute meaningfully for a while yet, bear with me.

dubb93 · 06-10-2009, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Dubb: question...

Lord Righteous and the White Knight had PM rights, correct? Am I interpreting the PM rights portion under the "Order of Righteousness" part of the rules correctly?

They did, yes.

dubb93 · 06-10-2009, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnDvls

bolded is mine from the rules

FYI

I would like to clarify that. You may vote for yourself for king. You may not vote for yourself for lynch/jail.

Telle · 06-10-2009, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dubb93

I would like to clarify that. You may vote for yourself for king. You may not vote for yourself for lynch/jail.

Just FYI.. you let Pass vote for himself on Day 1. Doesn't change the outcome though.

saldana · 06-10-2009, 03:33 PM

vote pass for king

no idea who to vote for jail/lynch right now, although i still stand behind my concept from yesterday that we need to lynch to learn anything.

path12 · 06-10-2009, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Autumn

I would suggest anyone who has a counterclaim to Pass's role make that counterreveal very early today. We have a chance at forming a COT or rooting out a wolf right here and someone "revealing" at the last moment would be bad form, I think.

If no one is coming out soon I will be moving back to voting Pass as King I think. It would bump Abe up to a trusted list to my mind also, though it's remotely possible he's still bad.

STill, if both are good I have to think about Tyrith's behavior to make any sense of it.

I'm catching up but I don't see how Abe gets any trust out of this at all. I'm feeling almost exactly the opposite and am leaning towards him being my lynch vote tonight.

dubb93 · 06-10-2009, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telle

Just FYI.. you let Pass vote for himself on Day 1. Doesn't change the outcome though.

, I'm far from perfect.

Telle · 06-10-2009, 03:39 PM

VOTE PASSACAGLIA KING

Seems to be the closest we have to anyone being trusted.

path12 · 06-10-2009, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KWhit

They couldn't night kill him while he was in jail, right?

Maybe they released him so they could night kill him last night with the added benefit of possibly getting the heat off of clap.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum

I am wondering if maybe Clap saw he was about to go down so he released Pass to try and gain trust?

I think either of these are valid reasons not to trust clap/Abe, BTW.

lerriuqs · 06-10-2009, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by path12

I'm catching up but I don't see how Abe gets any trust out of this at all. I'm feeling almost exactly the opposite and am leaning towards him being my lynch vote tonight.

I'm leaning that way as well...Could be a trust thing and it also hopefully gives us control over the jail mechanic outside of a jail break anyways...

lerriuqs · 06-10-2009, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KWhit

They couldn't night kill him while he was in jail, right?

Maybe they released him so they could night kill him last night with the added benefit of possibly getting the heat off of clap.

Of course, once Schmidty duked the Dark One, they didn't need to nightkill pass any more since Arbitro isn't a threat to them any more.

The Dark One could have killed Pass in jail...and was still alive when he was released.

path12 · 06-10-2009, 03:47 PM

Bottom line for me, Pass' story rings true so far and absent a counter I've no problem voting him King.

I am voting to lynch rather than jail for multiple reasons we all went over yesterday. Here are the reasons why it's going to Abe:

1) clap's behavior yesterday.
2) it makes sense for a wolf to spring Pass once they knew his role to try for the night kill.
3) I see no reason to think that someone who has the power to speak to prisoners/break them out of jail will have any other power that will greatly hurt the village if they happen to be good (eg seer, BG, etc).

So, that said:

VOTE PASS KING
VOTE ABE LYNCH

I'll have time to reconsider the lynch vote before deadline (I think I'll be back before then).

RendeR · 06-10-2009, 03:49 PM

wow, slow afternoon.

Autumn · 06-10-2009, 03:55 PM

Very slow. I can see the case on Abe, but I'd lke to see another candidate in the offering as well. I'm going to have to think to come upiwth one I guess.

MartinD · 06-10-2009, 04:30 PM

While I can still see Pass being one of the bad guys, I think that it's pretty unlikely, so I'll follow along with the general consensus:

VOTE PASSACAGLIA KING

In terms of today's lynch/jail vote, Abe seems to be the obvious candidate to me (although that's based almost exclusively on claphamsa's actions near the end of day 2 (which looked very suspicious to me), not on anything that Abe's done since he took over).

The unexpected release of Pass during the day phase does make me wonder about the effectiveness of using the jail option rather than going for the 'traditional' lynch - on the other hand, killing someone instead of sticking them in the slammer is sort of permanent.

Flipping back to the 'lynch over jail' argument - if you're pretty sure that you've got a wolf, why go with the jail option?

VOTE ABE SARGENT LYNCH

MartinD · 06-10-2009, 04:35 PM

OK, that's me done for the night. I suspect that I won't be around much tomorrow (am golfing almost immediately after work, and probably won't be particularly awake afterwards!), but that will give me more time to think about how Lathum's percentages could work in favour of the village.

Autumn · 06-10-2009, 04:36 PM

I'm going to be gone until after King deadline, but it seems like that's mostly settled at this point. I'm not sure where I'll vote for jail/lynch but hopefully will come up with something by then.

Lathum · 06-10-2009, 04:44 PM

Vote Pass King

Chief Rum · 06-10-2009, 04:48 PM

I realize it comes down to getting a read on things, but I am pretty sure Abe's not a wolf. I could see the Cultist, but not a wolf. I think we're making a mistake lynching him if we're looking for a wolf.

Those of you trying to play up clap's play with Pass are going to far lengths, IMO, to lynch him, when instead you could be looking at other options. It strikes me as odd to see people going for the difficult explanation and moving past the easy one. Occam's razor--clap's probably who he told Pass he is.

Since it is increasingly likely that Pass is who he says he is, too, given no counter reveal Arbitro, we can be sure he's not lying about what clap told him.

Now, I'm not saying we should extend clap's successor trust at all. But I do tihnk he's bought himself a bye on a lynch at least, because unlike most of the rest of us, he actually has some evidence he might be a villager.

I'll admit I haven't focused on other options myself yet, so I would do best tot ake my own advice there.

SnDvls · 06-10-2009, 04:50 PM

vote lynch Autumn

hate to throw another name in there, but you've been all over the place today and all over me yesterday. You are really pinging my radar because of that.
I really want to give Abe the benefit of the doubt and I think some might be holding what clap did/has done against him. I've been in the "replacement role" before so I know what it's like. We'll see I guess.

06-10-2009, 01:12 PM	#1009
Chief Rum Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Where Hip Hop lives	I would like to hear from Abe, but for the most part, Pass's story has vibed, and no one has come forth to deny his claim as Arbitro at this point. So I am up for him as king as well (barring further evidence to the contrary arising). VOTE ELECT PASSACAGLIA KING __________________ . . I would rather be wrong...Than live in the shadows of your song...My mind is open wide...And now I'm ready to start...You're not sure...You open the door...And step out into the dark...Now I'm ready.

06-10-2009, 01:53 PM	#1020
DaddyTorgo Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Massachusetts	who dat? __________________ If I've ever helped you and you'd like to buy me a coffee, or just to say thanks, I have my Bitcoin and Ethereum addressed listed below :) BTC: bc1qykhsfyn9vw4ntqfgr0svj4n9tjdgufryh2pxn5 ETH: 0x2AcdC5cd88EA537063553F5b240073bE067BaCa9

06-10-2009, 02:02 PM	#1022
DaddyTorgo Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Massachusetts	who dey? __________________ If I've ever helped you and you'd like to buy me a coffee, or just to say thanks, I have my Bitcoin and Ethereum addressed listed below :) BTC: bc1qykhsfyn9vw4ntqfgr0svj4n9tjdgufryh2pxn5 ETH: 0x2AcdC5cd88EA537063553F5b240073bE067BaCa9

06-10-2009, 02:02 PM	#1023
DaddyTorgo Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Massachusetts	some band? __________________ If I've ever helped you and you'd like to buy me a coffee, or just to say thanks, I have my Bitcoin and Ethereum addressed listed below :) BTC: bc1qykhsfyn9vw4ntqfgr0svj4n9tjdgufryh2pxn5 ETH: 0x2AcdC5cd88EA537063553F5b240073bE067BaCa9

06-10-2009, 02:03 PM	#1024
DaddyTorgo Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Massachusetts	i never heard of? __________________ If I've ever helped you and you'd like to buy me a coffee, or just to say thanks, I have my Bitcoin and Ethereum addressed listed below :) BTC: bc1qykhsfyn9vw4ntqfgr0svj4n9tjdgufryh2pxn5 ETH: 0x2AcdC5cd88EA537063553F5b240073bE067BaCa9

06-10-2009, 12:23 PM	#1002
Autumn Head Coach Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Bath, ME	If Pass told Abe/Clap that he was Arbitro then I don't know why Clap would release him if Clap was a wolf. At that point the DO was alive and they could have night killed Pass and taken care of that threat. THe only possibility I can see there is if Clap had already told Pass that he could release him, and then didn't want to renege and have pass publish a damning story. But that seems unlikely. I think either Pass/Abe are both villager or both wolves.

06-10-2009, 12:30 PM	#1004
Autumn Head Coach Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Bath, ME	Well, unless someone counter reveals as Arbitro I don't think we need to lynch.

06-10-2009, 12:35 PM	#1005
The Jackal Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: New Hampshire	I mean if we elect Pass as King and jail abe.. if pass trusts him won't he just release him?

06-10-2009, 12:42 PM	#1008
The Jackal Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: New Hampshire	Well for now: ELECT PASS KING

06-10-2009, 01:17 PM	#1011
Lathum Favored Bitch #1 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: homeless in NJ	I am wondering if maybe Clap saw he was about to go down so he released Pass to try and gain trust?

06-10-2009, 01:17 PM	#1012
KWhit Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Conyers GA	Overall, I'm getting a good vibe from Pass. His story seems legit. But clap? Not so much. It's hard to not let his odd play from last night color my suspicion, but Tyrith's posts regarding his likely innocence last night weird me out in a major way. He had like 5 posts saying we should move off of clap during the last hour before deadline last night.

06-10-2009, 01:27 PM	#1016
Autumn Head Coach Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Bath, ME	Oh you're right, only the DO can night kill in jail. I didn't realize that. Well, it's still possible they could have done so. I basically agree that Clap/Abe is still not quite cleared, especially given Tyrith's seeming desire to clear him. But I keep thinking that it's unlikely a wolf would have that role that Clap/Abe seems to have. VOTE TO ELECT PASSACAGLIA KING Again, I hope if anyone has a counter reveal they will do it early.

06-10-2009, 01:51 PM	#1019
Passacaglia Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Big Ten Country

06-10-2009, 01:59 PM	#1021
Passacaglia Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Big Ten Country	The Do

06-10-2009, 02:08 PM	#1026
USFLTecmo H.S. Freshman Team Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, Wisconsin	VOTE PASS KING Based on my earlier post believing him.

06-10-2009, 02:12 PM	#1027
SnDvls Pro Starter Join Date: Jul 2001	Good Abe is here maybe he can shed some light on the jail break

06-10-2009, 02:17 PM	#1028
Lathum Favored Bitch #1 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: homeless in NJ	I the necro game I was a bad guy and had the ability to communicate with a good guy, so I wouldn't rule out that possibility

06-10-2009, 02:50 PM	#1030
Lathum Favored Bitch #1 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: homeless in NJ	<---------------------------------- <---------------------------------- threadkiller

06-10-2009, 02:52 PM	#1031
Abe Sargent Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Catonsville, MD	I am very busy in work tody aand I am not nearly caught up, so I will be unable to contnribute meaningfully for a while yet, bear with me. __________________ Check out my two current weekly Magic columns! https://www.coolstuffinc.com/a/?action=search&page=1&author[]=Abe%20Sargent

06-10-2009, 03:33 PM	#1035
saldana Pro Starter Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Bethlehem, Pa	vote pass for king no idea who to vote for jail/lynch right now, although i still stand behind my concept from yesterday that we need to lynch to learn anything.

06-10-2009, 03:39 PM	#1038
Telle College Starter Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Buffalo, NY	VOTE PASSACAGLIA KING Seems to be the closest we have to anyone being trusted.

06-10-2009, 03:47 PM	#1042
path12 Coordinator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Seattle, WA	Bottom line for me, Pass' story rings true so far and absent a counter I've no problem voting him King. I am voting to lynch rather than jail for multiple reasons we all went over yesterday. Here are the reasons why it's going to Abe: 1) clap's behavior yesterday. 2) it makes sense for a wolf to spring Pass once they knew his role to try for the night kill. 3) I see no reason to think that someone who has the power to speak to prisoners/break them out of jail will have any other power that will greatly hurt the village if they happen to be good (eg seer, BG, etc). So, that said: VOTE PASS KING VOTE ABE LYNCH I'll have time to reconsider the lynch vote before deadline (I think I'll be back before then). __________________ We have always been at war with Eastasia.

06-10-2009, 03:49 PM	#1043
RendeR Coordinator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Buffalo, NY	wow, slow afternoon. __________________ http://wotlabs.net/s...8/signature.png http://wotlabs.net/sig_dark/na/banichi18/signature.png

06-10-2009, 03:55 PM	#1044
Autumn Head Coach Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Bath, ME	Very slow. I can see the case on Abe, but I'd lke to see another candidate in the offering as well. I'm going to have to think to come upiwth one I guess.

06-10-2009, 04:30 PM	#1045
MartinD High School Varsity Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: East Lothian, Scotland	While I can still see Pass being one of the bad guys, I think that it's pretty unlikely, so I'll follow along with the general consensus: VOTE PASSACAGLIA KING In terms of today's lynch/jail vote, Abe seems to be the obvious candidate to me (although that's based almost exclusively on claphamsa's actions near the end of day 2 (which looked very suspicious to me), not on anything that Abe's done since he took over). The unexpected release of Pass during the day phase does make me wonder about the effectiveness of using the jail option rather than going for the 'traditional' lynch - on the other hand, killing someone instead of sticking them in the slammer is sort of permanent. Flipping back to the 'lynch over jail' argument - if you're pretty sure that you've got a wolf, why go with the jail option? VOTE ABE SARGENT LYNCH

06-10-2009, 04:35 PM	#1046
MartinD High School Varsity Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: East Lothian, Scotland	OK, that's me done for the night. I suspect that I won't be around much tomorrow (am golfing almost immediately after work, and probably won't be particularly awake afterwards!), but that will give me more time to think about how Lathum's percentages could work in favour of the village.

06-10-2009, 04:36 PM	#1047
Autumn Head Coach Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Bath, ME	I'm going to be gone until after King deadline, but it seems like that's mostly settled at this point. I'm not sure where I'll vote for jail/lynch but hopefully will come up with something by then.

06-10-2009, 04:44 PM	#1048
Lathum Favored Bitch #1 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: homeless in NJ	Vote Pass King

06-10-2009, 04:48 PM	#1049
Chief Rum Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Where Hip Hop lives	I realize it comes down to getting a read on things, but I am pretty sure Abe's not a wolf. I could see the Cultist, but not a wolf. I think we're making a mistake lynching him if we're looking for a wolf. Those of you trying to play up clap's play with Pass are going to far lengths, IMO, to lynch him, when instead you could be looking at other options. It strikes me as odd to see people going for the difficult explanation and moving past the easy one. Occam's razor--clap's probably who he told Pass he is. Since it is increasingly likely that Pass is who he says he is, too, given no counter reveal Arbitro, we can be sure he's not lying about what clap told him. Now, I'm not saying we should extend clap's successor trust at all. But I do tihnk he's bought himself a bye on a lynch at least, because unlike most of the rest of us, he actually has some evidence he might be a villager. I'll admit I haven't focused on other options myself yet, so I would do best tot ake my own advice there. __________________ . . I would rather be wrong...Than live in the shadows of your song...My mind is open wide...And now I'm ready to start...You're not sure...You open the door...And step out into the dark...Now I'm ready.

06-10-2009, 04:50 PM	#1050
SnDvls Pro Starter Join Date: Jul 2001	vote lynch Autumn hate to throw another name in there, but you've been all over the place today and all over me yesterday. You are really pinging my radar because of that. I really want to give Abe the benefit of the doubt and I think some might be holding what clap did/has done against him. I've been in the "replacement role" before so I know what it's like. We'll see I guess.

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