The Trump Presidency – 2016

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

I guess I'm an evil person because why should the Federal government cover it? Where is the power to fund it in the Constitution? Why not just raise private funds. I'm sure you're willing to throw in a buck or two right?

This is just a high minded way to say fuck them.

Taking care of the less fortunate makes us a moral society. Providing access to all lifts up not just the weak, but also the strong. Justice should come before charity.

[thesloppy]

Yeah, I mean it might not be in the constitution, but we *do* have a really big statue, that we labeled Liberty, proclaiming our unwavering support for the poor, tired and huddled masses. I practically agree it's time to knock that sucker down and replace it with the Statue of Self Interest, but we're going to need a new poem too.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

Do you guys really think of this as war on You? Really? Do you even talk to humans outside of your circle? Your post is sad not because of what you believe in politically, it’s sad because of what you believe of your fellow human, man. It ain’t all us against them, bro.

Yes. It is a war on me. You know how I know this? It's precisely because I leave my bubble and listen to people outside my circle. I listen to Mitch McConnell openly say that his only goal during the Obama administration was to reject every single idea put forth by Obama no matter what it is, no matter how much partisan backing it had, because "fuck obama".

I've watched family members do nothing but share Trump memes on facebook and I've attempted to gently point out the places where we're not that different, only to be laughed at.

I listen to more and more people say the same things that Jon says, just a little less openly malicious about it - the idea that liberals in the United States are THE ENEMY of our government, our freedom and our way of life. Not China, not Russia, not Al Qaeda or ISIS, but democrats. Not many do what Jon does and state every time he feels it to be appropriate that the way forward for the US is to have as many liberals die as possible, but the idea that liberals are the enemy is openly put forth very frequently.

Again going to the "team sport" idea - look at republicans like Trump and his "grab em by the pussy" comments and a pedophile running for congress in Alabama. Republicans ignore that, they rally around those people to protect them from anyone calling for decency, they fight to prop up these people. When democrats have had abuse scandals, the call from other democrats is for them to resign because they don't deserve to hold their position anymore.

When Barack Obama made healthcare a priority, there was a dramatic shift in support for universal healthcare among white republicans. Because a black democrat supported it, many people who supported the idea of universal healthcare when it came up during the Clinton Administration changed their views. The same thing happened when Obama made Climate Change a focus of a State of the Union address. A black democrat made Climate Change a key point, and all of a sudden republicans were against it.


So yes, I do believe there is an active focus of the right wing media and the GOP in congress to make democrats the enemy. I believe they're very open about that and say it out loud on a daily basis. I believe this because I get out of my echo chamber from time to tie long enough to listen to those words, and I believe them. And so do millions of americans who only watch fox news and have done what Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and many others at Fox in general tell all their viewers - That everything but Fox is fake news, stop watching any other news source, only trust us. And then they lay on the propaganda.

[Radii]

dola, and I'll once again point out the same thing that I have 100 times here for Schmidty - I don't like Mike Pence, especially his open hatred of gay people. But Mike Pence could have been the GOP's president, he could have been a ruthlessly effective one. Instead, the party members in congress openly defend Trump time and time again in the face of some of the most horrible things ever said by a politician. Over a history of bias against blacks that he's been sued for and LOST. When the option isn't Hillary if Trump were to be gone. The option is Pence. A perfect ideologue for the right who can go 24 hours without making fun of deceased war heroes or retweeting literal nazi's or calling other countries shitholes, or praising dictators who murder their own people while making fun of democratic leaders for being weak.

I'm not expecting everyone to become a liberal like me. I'm just still baffled to see people I thought were truly caring people stand behind trump no matter how much he marginalizes women, minorities, LGBT people. We've been through this before. Its just amazing to me to hear someone shit on me for playing an "us against them" game.

This country is just fucked, that's all I can say.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Not at all. That's not even close. If you really knew that google thinks I read conservative media non stop, and fb knows has me pegged as a solid centrist ( I would consider myself a solidly centrist, D).

Hah, FWIW I consider myself centrist and you Left of me (but would guess many of you would view me as Right of center).

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Please show me example of how this administration has done anything to act in the best interest of ALL Americans, not just those who support their agenda. Explain to me how this administration has done anything that isn't us vs them?

I think this is a good example of what is corrosive in our current environment. First of all, one obvious answer is Trump pushing the criminal justice bill that passed with broad bipartisan support. Even in the current environment. So as bad as things are, stuff like that still happens and doesn't get celebrated enough.

Some other things fall under the groupthink category. I.e., the natural assumption of liberals in general is going to be that liberal policies are better for all Americans - but it's worth pointing out that on many issues at least conservatives aren't going to agree. For example, policies that I personally disagree with but that it is possible to rationally believe are best for the country would include a wall for securing the border, the Trump tax cuts, tariffs, etc. I think there are better answers to those concerns, and many others, but the point is that doesn't give me a justification to assume that everyone who supports them doesn't believe they are good for all Americans.

Originally Posted by Radii

I listen to more and more people say the same things that Jon says, just a little less openly malicious about it - the idea that liberals in the United States are THE ENEMY of our government, our freedom and our way of life. Not China, not Russia, not Al Qaeda or ISIS, but democrats.

It was only a decade ago that this type of rhetoric was going in the other direction. Not as badly or virulently, I'm not going for bothsidesism here, but the point I'm trying to make is we can come back from this. We have come back from worse. People of good will should not give up on the country yet. The mostly-justified anger against Trumpism is I think blinding many who should know better - I'm not targeting this against specific people here, as that's something only they can determine for themselves - to how things look to those on the other side of the debate.

[Edward64]

Another FWIW. I do think its a "war on Dems/Lib". I don't necessarily agree with all the examples provided but do think there is plenty of examples to show it is a "war".

I would point out that plenty of GOP can probably cite different examples "war against Reps/Conservatives" during the Obama years.

So yeah, its a war.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Please show me example of how this administration has done anything to act in the best interest of ALL Americans, not just those who support their agenda. Explain to me how this administration has done anything that isn't us vs them?

Again, let me say that I agree it is a war (albeit not just against Dems/Libs, the other side can view it the same way when the opposite party was in power).

With that said "ALL Americans" is way too high of a standard and don't think that can be used as a criteria/example. How has any Administration done anything to act in the best interest of ALL (or even close to all) Americans?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

I guess I'm an evil person because why should the Federal government cover it? Where is the power to fund it in the Constitution? Why not just raise private funds. I'm sure you're willing to throw in a buck or two right?

I do see you point of where does it stop but I do think this is a special cause and IMO furthers our strategic interest (e.g. world opinion).

The government funds (or subsidizes) plenty of private interests, why not cut from them and redirect the $18M to a "worthy" cause.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Again, let me say that I agree it is a war (albeit not just against Dems/Libs, the other side can view it the same way when the opposite party was in power).

With that said "ALL Americans" is way too high of a standard and don't think that can be used as a criteria/example. How has any Administration done anything to act in the best interest of ALL (or even close to all) Americans?

How about ensuring everyone who needs it has health care?

Instead this administration is trying to roll back that policy, with the feeble promise they will come up with a better plan.

I'm obviously being a bit hyperbolic with my wording, but I would hope people get the point that this administration only cares about their supporters, and fuck off to everyone else. That was in response to Schmidty, who seems to think the opposite.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Radii

This country is just fucked, that's all I can say.

I don't think you mean to say US is a bad country but want to say that as an immigrant who appreciates the opportunities this country has provided me, its still the greatest country in the world.

(Okay, okay maybe the top 5 when you factor in the Nordic countries if you are a white person )

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Lathum

How about ensuring everyone who needs it has health care?

Instead this administration is trying to roll back that policy, with the feeble promise they will come up with a better plan.

I'm obviously being a bit hyperbolic with my wording, but I would hope people get the point that this administration only cares about their supporters, and fuck off to everyone else. That was in response to Schmidty, who seems to think the opposite.

I am a supporter of single-payer healthcare for the "basics" with optional private insurance. Some sort of Medicare for all would be great.

But did the ACA even break 60 in support ever? All, 80-20 rule etc. is just too high of a standard.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

It was only a decade ago that this type of rhetoric was going in the other direction. Not as badly or virulently, I'm not going for bothsidesism here, but the point I'm trying to make is we can come back from this. We have come back from worse. People of good will should not give up on the country yet. The mostly-justified anger against Trumpism is I think blinding many who should know better - I'm not targeting this against specific people here, as that's something only they can determine for themselves - to how things look to those on the other side of the debate.

Except that to paint what was going on as the exact same thing only the other way isn't accurate at all. A lot of the complaints about Fox are exactly the same then as they are now. You had birtherism, you had every single thing and person that Obama put in place blown up to a hair-raising, angry decibel that talk radio could just go on and on about.

The only difference is that a D was in the White House. The things that Obama and trump are being asked and accused of are 2 very different things. First Obama was black. Attacks on him personally were based on that, that he was born in Kenya, that he is a Muslim, that he "has a deep-seated hatred for white people", that he is actually anti-American. These kinds of attacks, and the rationalization that it takes to understand them and put them together focuses purely on speculation and not on any current actions that he made. The latte salute was, according to Fox, one of the most shocking things any president had ever done. They spent days, and days on it. It was an effort to bring the man down, but spreading as much anger about who they wanted people to think that he is, and those things I mentioned? Lies. Simply lies, based on race, designed to get white supporters very angry. Ted Nugent was the face of it. Lynching comment and all. That's it.

The things that trump has been criticized for are actually based on his past choices, actions, tweets. The "grab 'em by the pussy" comment was actually caught on an open mic. You heard him say it. trump has held virtually every position he can on any topic. You can dig and find hundreds of places where he contradicts himself. He has a long history of race baiting, just like Fox did with Obama. He can't spell. I mean the list of shit that he's done goes on. The official WH comments day 1 about the inauguration being the very biggest, ever, don't question my authoritai', were where it all began. That is something that can be factually challenged. Criticizing the man, the policies, and the endless amount of bullshit and documented lies can't even begin to compare with the actual smear tactics that Fox used on a regular basis. They loved that McConnell's mail goal was to say "NO" to every single thing, and made of of Obama for everything they could. Again, a deep internet research doesn't need to be done. Fact checking and pointing out where the president has lied isn't on the same field as lying about a birth certificate and encouraging others to not believe it.

trump created some national parks, but he also took away over a million acres from another, that had been returned to Native Americans. One good, does not outweigh, one bad.

I will concede that yes, there are people on the left, who are more than willing to do the very same thing. There's a lot of speculation that goes on, doesn't lead anywhere, and wastes a lot of time. But far and away, the actual fact based, verifiable checking is done on the left. The fact, that actual facts, and science, and our entire process of what is decided as right and wrong is brought into question more and more each day has me severely alarmed. How can we come to a point to begin a discussion on a way forward, if we can't begin on where to start? Or what the initial facts are? Or on if climate change is happening and what can be done, or if mandatory vaccines are a good thing or not? If the accepted science and studies are thrown out as some sort of devil worship then we will severely regress as a society.

The US is not a dynamic economy any longer. The government has underfunded R&D (of all kinds from disease prevention, cures, scientific studies), not taken care of it's infrastructure, and continues to believe that the profit dollar is the only, and best way to generate value and wealth in the country. R&D, science, infrastructure, may not be pretty today, but the value they give back over time makes them one of the biggest, and best ways to spend money, and it's been proven time and time again.

I digress, but back on my original point, I don't think that the case we have now, even remotely resembles the situation we saw in 2009 regarding the WH and the media. Obama excluding Fox from a briefing is not the same as the endless attacks from trump that any other media is an ENEMY OF THE PEOPLE! (See, it's the same thing all over again, it's just anger stoking. It's just what can I say that is going to really get my side riled up). Keith Olberman's 176 reasons report before the election got me riled up. But every single one of those things was factual. It wasn't just hyperbole. Those were verifiable. Same is not the same.

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by Edward64

(but would guess many of you would view me as Right of center).

Yep. I'd peg you as center-right, Republican moderate in US terms.

[albionmoonlight]

I am going to waste as much time on 2020 speculation as anyone. But taking a step back, I think that we all could forgo all of the analysis because it really is just going to come down to one question. Was Hillary Clinton that unlikable because she was Hillary Clinton, or is the GOP apparatus sophisticated enough to make any Democratic challenger that highly unlikable?

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

I am going to waste as much time on 2020 speculation as anyone. But taking a step back, I think that we all could forgo all of the analysis because it really is just going to come down to one question. Was Hillary Clinton that unlikable because she was Hillary Clinton, or is the GOP apparatus sophisticated enough to make any Democratic challenger that highly unlikable?

I think Hillary's biggest issue wasn't necessarily her general lack of appeal to coservative/swing voters, but particularly the lack of appeal she generated for a significant amount of the folks that were supposed to be her base. IMO Joe Biden seems like the only one of the biggest names in the current running that could inspire that same level of fatigue.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I don't think you mean to say US is a bad country but want to say that as an immigrant who appreciates the opportunities this country has provided me, its still the greatest country in the world.

(Okay, okay maybe the top 5 when you factor in the Nordic countries if you are a white person )

I absolutely don't want to take that from you and completely respect your experience. I'm incredibly happy to know that you found a better life coming to this country, that's truly awesome!

My own perspective - which I know is extreme - is that I do not believe there is any recovering or coming back from where we are given the lows our political climate and discourse has reached. That it will only get worse as we ignore worse and worse problems, most importantly climate change, as things fall apart around us all.

I believe a democrat wins in 2020, and that's *really* when Fox News and folks like Mitch McConnell thrive, getting to employ scare tactics that the next president (even if its the most moderate candidates like Beto or Biden) is a straight up socialist hell bent on repealing the second amendment. The backlash is immense and we elect someone worse than Trump, repeat this cycle for awhile and we just spiral straight down.

I just don't see what could possibly happen to rein this back in. What could happen to return to a point where our debates involve facts and differing opinions on what to do about those facts, instead of everyone just blatantly making shit up and dying (or thriving) around a completely false narrative about what "the other side" is doing? How do we reach a point where we can have honest disagreements about policy but with an honest desire from everyone to move us forward? How do we return from a place where we no longer blatantly dismiss universally accepted science? The fate of the earth is literally at stake and our government is incapable of saying "you know what, we might disagree on how to approach this but here are a large set of facts that are just simply true, so we have to find a solution and compromise and work together".


I have literally zero hope of this ever happening

I will say, I know I'm not perfect and that I'm capable of being wrong. I refuse to just go limp and accept this fate. I'll continue to vote for what I believe is the best interest of our nation, I'm seriously considering volunteering for the democratic campaign for 2020 (though my natural laziness may win out there). So I'm not quitting. I want to be wrong very badly. I just can't see how it happens in my mind and I feel no hope.

[thesloppy]

I like to hope that American political culture is more like a pendulum swing, rather than an unavoidable cycle that drains down the toilet. It seems worth remembering that 4 years ago we had just as many folks telling ourselves that we were in the middle of a post-racist utopia.

These days remind me of the crazy stories about the Tammany Hall era and Boss Tweed, with competing fire departments that would axe fight eachother for the right to fight the fire in your house, that one of them may have started. I like to think that sometimes we have to display our worst qualities before we can recover from them, and I would like to hope we're in the middle of the death throes of boomer-styled judgment based politics, and things might actually improve in the long run from airing *so much* of our dirty laundry. Wishful thinking, I know.

[Chief Rum]

When I think upon the depths this country has gone to in its history, and how truly terrible it was for the majority of people for most of the past two hundred and fifty years, I laugh at anyone who looks at what is happening now and bemoans that we won't ever go back to "nornal."

Things will get better. They always do, in the long run. There are heights and valleys, of course. We seem to be at a nadir currently from the perspective of the political culture. But the trend is still up. Anyone thinking otherwise probably needs to just go off the grid for a bit, or not let themselves get caught up in the day to day or even year to year swings.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

When I think upon the depths this country has gone to in its history, and how truly terrible it was for the majority of people for most of the past two hundred and fifty years, I laugh at anyone who looks at what is happening now and bemoans that we won't ever go back to "nornal."

Things will get better. They always do, in the long run. There are heights and valleys, of course. We seem to be at a nadir currently from the perspective of the political culture. But the trend is still up. Anyone thinking otherwise probably needs to just go off the grid for a bit, or not let themselves get caught up in the day to day or even year to year swings.

There's always time for a chocolate malt and watching the birds.

[JPhillips]

Dear WH,

You can't keep going back to the caravan well. Each time it's less effective.

Maybe try boat people or an invasion of Maine to keep things fresh.

Good luck!

[JPhillips]

dola

Watched some video of the crowd from last night's Trump rally and it sure seems like QAnon is getting mainstreamed.

[digamma]

Schiff's speech yesterday was as clear of a dividing line as any I've seen. Either you think this stuff is ok or you don't. And his speech was only about Russia.

On top of that you have Trump's race rhetoric, his healthcare nonsense, his North Korean love affair, his disparagement of allies, his payoffs of mistresses, his incessant lying, etc.

Either you think this is ok, or you don't.

I don't think it's ok.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

When I think upon the depths this country has gone to in its history, and how truly terrible it was for the majority of people for most of the past two hundred and fifty years, I laugh at anyone who looks at what is happening now and bemoans that we won't ever go back to "nornal."

Things will get better. They always do, in the long run. There are heights and valleys, of course. We seem to be at a nadir currently from the perspective of the political culture. But the trend is still up. Anyone thinking otherwise probably needs to just go off the grid for a bit, or not let themselves get caught up in the day to day or even year to year swings.

I feel you, that's fair. I'm reminded of all of Bucc's posts leading up to the election, how the results weren't even worth watching, that there was no way our nation was messed up enough to elect a moron like Trump, and then...

so, you're right until you're not, and once you realize you're not, it'll be too late. I hope you're right

I've had a number of times where I've pulled away from reading any stories for a week or so just to re-center myself - or whatever you want to call it. Most of the time it doesn't effect my day to day life, just the moments where I am keeping myself engaged and involved in what's going on in the world.

I want to be wrong, so its all good. In fact, on the day that we pass major climate change legislation in a bi-partisan fashion, I will be the first person to come here and happily say "you guys were right, we're gonna be okay"

[PilotMan]

What I would give to see the reaction to Obama leading a McConnell Sucks chant.

[PilotMan]

I want to put this out there merely as a statistical analysis on this topic and the overall topic of echo chambers, snowflakes, propaganda, and overall effect of Sociology and social psychology. It's a lot to do with the effect Russian influence had on the election.



I know it's a little heavy, and I don't really want to comment on it a lot, but what are your thoughts takeaways, and where is this eventually leading us to?


https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/03/29/why-an-anti-ocasio-cortez-chant-trump-rally-was-all-inevitable/

[lungs]

WTF.... did Trump just threaten Mexico with shutting down the border next week?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by lungs

WTF.... did Trump just threaten Mexico with shutting down the border next week?

He did.

WTF does that even mean?

[lungs]

Originally Posted by Lathum

He did.

WTF does that even mean?

No idea. This could get interesting, though.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

I want to put this out there merely as a statistical analysis on this topic and the overall topic of echo chambers, snowflakes, propaganda, and overall effect of Sociology and social psychology. It's a lot to do with the effect Russian influence had on the election.

I know it's a little heavy, and I don't really want to comment on it a lot, but what are your thoughts takeaways, and where is this eventually leading us to?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/03/29/why-an-anti-ocasio-cortez-chant-trump-rally-was-all-inevitable/

That article is all about the influence that Fox News has, it didn't mention Russia influence any. Was there a different one?

[PilotMan]

I think it speaks deeper to the way that people perceive the news they receive and the larger way they are influenced. It may not address the past influence, however, it does speak to the way that people can be influenced and how any foreign power can manipulate the narrative, not simply the way the hyper partisan outlets do.



Basically, given this, what direction are we going? Will media be open? Will it be restricted, turned into propaganda? Will that be tolerated? And if it remains as it is, how do we set the standard for separating the wheat from the chaff so to speak. You can't have government control of free press, but if the narrative that the free press can so easily be manipulated and amplified, how do you get the masses to buy into the fact that they are the ones that need to be smarter? And what if they simply refuse.


I know it's a lot of what ifs, but it is a tough thought game.

[Vince, Pt. II]

"turned into propaganda" would imply that in its current state it isn't already there.

Maybe that's cynical, but it's damned hard to find an unbiased opinion in the world of today's news.

[PilotMan]

I think there's a difference between what Russia, CHina, NK have where the news is only what you see from the single sided governmental point of view. There is no opposing view. Of course, Putin gets 90% of the vote, because there's no real opposition and what news that comes out is flattering and paints him only in the light and the success of the country.



You don't have that here, but you could. The current president, in my opinion, would love it if that were the case with him. I guess it's the whole red/blue pill argument. Fact based reporting is alive and well, but there are plenty of places where it gets completely shit on in favor of taking a fact and adding 5 opinions to go along with it.

[NobodyHere]

Goodbye Joe Biden's Presidential aspirations.

Ex-Nevada Assemblywoman Says Joe Biden Inappropriately Kissed Her

[thesloppy]

I can't imagine anybody is shocked by this news.

[Lathum]

But Grab her by the pussy is totally cool

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Goodbye Joe Biden's Presidential aspirations.

Ex-Nevada Assemblywoman Says Joe Biden Inappropriately Kissed Her

I'd be shocked if there aren't 50 of these kinds of stories.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Goodbye Joe Biden's Presidential aspirations.

Ex-Nevada Assemblywoman Says Joe Biden Inappropriately Kissed Her

Originally Posted by Lathum

But Grab her by the pussy is totally cool

I guess it's only okay for the party of the evangelicals...

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

I guess it's only okay for the party of the evangelicals...

Now you get it!

[NobodyHere]

Dola,

In all seriousness I think the Democrats could learn something from Trump. For example Beto began his campaign with apologizing for something he wrote when he was 15. He should've focused on his core policy issues and attacking the media that wanted to make an issue of his writings.

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by lungs

WTF.... did Trump just threaten Mexico with shutting down the border next week?

What’s the point of shutting the border? I thought everybody just crossed illegally because there’s no wall?

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

I don't think that the case we have now, even remotely resembles the situation we saw in 2009 regarding the WH and the media.

Thanks for the long reply. I agree with most of what you said, but there's a disconnect here and it's partly my fault for getting the timeline wrong and not being more specific. WH-media relations wasn't my point, I was replying to what Radii's said about democrats being called the enemy. What I had in mind as one example of how this is nothing new was the '04 campaign. Specifically, the fact that all but one candidate in the opposition party primary referred to Dubya specifically and pointedly as the enemy, and showed far greater outrage with him than they ever did with al Qaeda. We could dig deeper than that and talk about how the coarseness in general political climate helps create those who drag it down further. Convinced that 'their side' will never get a fair shake, they resort to total war/bloodsport and throw caution to the winds. This is specifically true of multiple bad actors who have sadly gained notoriety. Ann Coulter is one of the most famous but hardly the only one, though a very useful example as I consider one of the worst examples of how bad partisan politics can get. Based on the reaction to the Paula Jones accusations, who she represented, and the various ways in which Clinton was defended more largely, she chose to became … well, the destructive force of rhetoric she became. I don't blame anyone other than Coulter for what she chose to do, but at the same time the toxic environment does contribute here.

Originally Posted by PilotMan

I don't think that the case we have now, even remotely resembles the situation we saw in 2009 regarding the WH and the media.

Partly true, but at the same time every study I've seen says coverage of Trump has been far more negative than that of any other president. He deserves far worse than criticism, he deserves impeachment at a minimum. At the same time, the complicated situation vis a vis racism and Obama has a lot more involved in it than was alluded to in your post. There were also the factors of any criticism of the man being labeled racism by many quarters regardless of validity, the pro-Obama racism contributing to his support, and so on.

Anyway back to the main point, the idea of referring to the party you disagree with as being the greatest enemy of America isn't new, and it isn't the sole province of the right. What D candidates said in '04 is far worse than anything Trump or anyone else since said as a candidate, and by skippy that's a low bar. On the other hand you are absolutely correct that in terms of volume of wingnuts just flat-out making stuff up, particularly in the last 15-20 years the conservative side has been clearly the worst. We do need to recognize that #NotMyPresident, calling on people to not merely oppose but resist the current government, and other extremes just don't help. You don't defeat the unprincipled demagogues by throwing your own standards out the window. As much as it disgusts me, Trump is my President and my duty is to spend more time praying for him than preying on him. But we can recover from all of this stuff. We're not even close to civil war yet, and we survived one of those. Maybe the only reason we don't do it again is because keyboard warrioring has become more fashionable than the real kind and we're too cowardly, but still - things could be a lot worse than they are and it is 100% reversible. If BS populism in the Trump vein is still just as popular or more so in 20 years ... yeah, then start worrying. But it's a bit early - we ought to let the electorate correct itself and if '18 results are any indication, that process has already begun.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Radii

I absolutely don't want to take that from you and completely respect your experience. I'm incredibly happy to know that you found a better life coming to this country, that's truly awesome!

My own perspective - which I know is extreme - is that I do not believe there is any recovering or coming back from where we are given the lows our political climate and discourse has reached. That it will only get worse as we ignore worse and worse problems, most importantly climate change, as things fall apart around us all.

Appreciate your note.

FWIW, I think demographics and time are on the side of the Dems/Liberals and against the more white conservative base.

I can remember in the 80's in the south were interracial dating was different, where women weren't in military, where gays were truly in the shadows other than in large cities, women/minority professionals etc.

There's been tremendous changes albeit not as fast (or complete) as some would like. But it will come. Three steps forward, two steps back ... we are just in the two steps back right now.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by AlexB

What’s the point of shutting the border? I thought everybody just crossed illegally because there’s no wall?

Says the guy with 20 miles of water to protect your homeland from the "horde"

Just rhetoric I'm sure. He's not going to lose any support from this, it reinforces/fires up his base etc. and it may (unlikely) help him get what he wants. He's currently on a win streak, the Dems/Liberals are licking their wounds from the recent defeat, let down etc. so why not kick them a little more when they are down.

2020 is going to be absolutely fascinating and can't wait for it to get here (has it only been 2 years?). It will tell us a lot about the US as a nation if Trump is re-elected or if he is not.

Unlikely I would vote for Trump in 2020 but sure hopes he gets the wall-like built which probably won't happen unless he gets a second-term.

[Ryche]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Appreciate your note.

FWIW, I think demographics and time are on the side of the Dems/Liberals and against the more white conservative base.

Very much so. If Trump wins the same percentage of the vote based on age, race, gender and education in 2020, he loses. It's a shrinking demographic.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

Thanks for the long reply. I agree with most of what you said, but there's a disconnect here and it's partly my fault for getting the timeline wrong and not being more specific. WH-media relations wasn't my point, I was replying to what Radii's said about democrats being called the enemy. What I had in mind as one example of how this is nothing new was the '04 campaign. Specifically, the fact that all but one candidate in the opposition party primary referred to Dubya specifically and pointedly as the enemy, and showed far greater outrage with him than they ever did with al Qaeda. We could dig deeper than that and talk about how the coarseness in general political climate helps create those who drag it down further. Convinced that 'their side' will never get a fair shake, they resort to total war/bloodsport and throw caution to the winds. This is specifically true of multiple bad actors who have sadly gained notoriety. Ann Coulter is one of the most famous but hardly the only one, though a very useful example as I consider one of the worst examples of how bad partisan politics can get. Based on the reaction to the Paula Jones accusations, who she represented, and the various ways in which Clinton was defended more largely, she chose to became … well, the destructive force of rhetoric she became. I don't blame anyone other than Coulter for what she chose to do, but at the same time the toxic environment does contribute here.



Partly true, but at the same time every study I've seen says coverage of Trump has been far more negative than that of any other president. He deserves far worse than criticism, he deserves impeachment at a minimum. At the same time, the complicated situation vis a vis racism and Obama has a lot more involved in it than was alluded to in your post. There were also the factors of any criticism of the man being labeled racism by many quarters regardless of validity, the pro-Obama racism contributing to his support, and so on.

Anyway back to the main point, the idea of referring to the party you disagree with as being the greatest enemy of America isn't new, and it isn't the sole province of the right. What D candidates said in '04 is far worse than anything Trump or anyone else since said as a candidate, and by skippy that's a low bar. On the other hand you are absolutely correct that in terms of volume of wingnuts just flat-out making stuff up, particularly in the last 15-20 years the conservative side has been clearly the worst. We do need to recognize that #NotMyPresident, calling on people to not merely oppose but resist the current government, and other extremes just don't help. You don't defeat the unprincipled demagogues by throwing your own standards out the window. As much as it disgusts me, Trump is my President and my duty is to spend more time praying for him than preying on him. But we can recover from all of this stuff. We're not even close to civil war yet, and we survived one of those. Maybe the only reason we don't do it again is because keyboard warrioring has become more fashionable than the real kind and we're too cowardly, but still - things could be a lot worse than they are and it is 100% reversible. If BS populism in the Trump vein is still just as popular or more so in 20 years ... yeah, then start worrying. But it's a bit early - we ought to let the electorate correct itself and if '18 results are any indication, that process has already begun.

There's a lot here that I don't object to, but the highlighted portion is bullshit. That didn't happen.

[Brian Swartz]

Yeah, it actually did. I remember it well, as it was one of the two primary factors that kept me in Bush's camp - the other being Kerry's stated approach to terrorism during the campaign. At that point in time I was beginning my journey away from conservatism and considering voting democrat for the first time. That journey continued, but didn't end up with me in D camp and this kind of thing is a big part of why. There were nine democratic candidates in the primary debates I watched. Eight of them spoke that way, repeatedly. I don't remember who the one was who didn't, but at that point it didn't matter. It was pretty clear they were doing what was expected of them - racing to see who could denounce Bush the loudest and fastest, and to heck with everything else.

[JPhillips]

Quotes, then.

Maybe Sharpton and Kucinich, but show me where the people that could have actually won were more outraged with Bush than AQ. All of the ones in Congress in 2001 voted for military action and all but Kucinich voted for the Iraq War.

[thesloppy]

To be clear, y'all are talking about the 2004 election AKA Swiftboatfest as if *Bush* somehow got remarkably & unfairly smeared by the Dems??

[larrymcg421]

I mean if you're saying they attacked Bush more than AQ, well no shit. He was the opposition party candidate. If you're saying they thought Bush was a bigger enemy than AQ, well that's not a defensible position at all.