2020 Democratic Primaries/General Election Thread

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

That's why you work the voter suppression angle, instead

SI

Except during a pandemic, closing polling stations (one of their tried and true methods of voter suppression) seems to have a larger impact on their own base.

They'll continue to purge voters and try to find other means of voter suppression, but Trump has put them in a situation where their options are limited.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

That's why you work the voter suppression angle, instead

SI

Yeah, it just gets harder to do enough of that each election. I'm well aware, though, that the GOP is working to create an apartheid state with permanent minority rule.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Yeah, it just gets harder to do enough of that each election. I'm well aware, though, that the GOP is working to create an apartheid state with permanent minority rule.

I see an analogy to the idea that it is actually more work for Trump to try and deflect blame for his poor COVID-19 response than it would have been to just not have a poor COVID-19 response.

I wonder if it is more work for the GOP to have to invest more and more into voter suppression, gerrymandering, etc. to stay in power with an unpopular agenda than it would be to just have a more popular agenda.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

I see an analogy to the idea that it is actually more work for Trump to try and deflect blame for his poor COVID-19 response than it would have been to just not have a poor COVID-19 response.

I wonder if it is more work for the GOP to have to invest more and more into voter suppression, gerrymandering, etc. to stay in power with an unpopular agenda than it would be to just have a more popular agenda.

I don't think they're willing to give up the power in the short term to create a sustainable long-term platform until they're forced to.

I could see loss of senate forcing an attempt at serious change within the GOP. Outside of that we're likely waiting for the if/when of Texas flipping deep purple or blue.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

They like it. I didn't do it but if I did, and I'm not saying I did because... look at her. But if I did grab her by the P***y I'm certain she would enjoy it because. Hands, look at my hands and fingers. Right? Now I'm not going to do that I wouldn't do that because I'm powerful and don't need to but if I did she would want it. They all do.

** Something like that?

Could be just a tad more succinct ... but yeah, like that !!

So for those that don't believe Reade or at least don't believe the "penetration" part of the harassment, what is Reade's motivation?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Could be just a tad more succinct ... but yeah, like that !!

So for those that don't believe Reade or at least don't believe the "penetration" part of the harassment, what is Reade's motivation?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Could be just a tad more succinct ... but yeah, like that !!

So for those that don't believe Reade or at least don't believe the "penetration" part of the harassment, what is Reade's motivation?

Why would anyone believe her to begin with? She tried to come forward with a different story last year and when it didn't get traction she changed it to make it a sexual assault.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Could be just a tad more succinct ... but yeah, like that !!

So for those that don't believe Reade or at least don't believe the "penetration" part of the harassment, what is Reade's motivation?

I (nor anyone else) really knows. It could be money. It could be Russian influence (her sudden change to worship Putin is a bit suspicious). It is also very possible she is not exactly stable mentally.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Why would anyone believe her to begin with? She tried to come forward with a different story last year and when it didn't get traction she changed it to make it a sexual assault.

My understanding is there is consistency in her accusing Biden of making her uncomfortable. It occurred a while ago, she told people back then about it then etc., and we have other women reporting similar pattern about Biden getting too touchy feely. I can easily believe this happened.

However, I don't think that rises to 'sexual harassment' vs older guy not changing with times. It does become sexual harassment if he's been told to not do it again but continues to do it.

The difference now is she is accusing him of finger penetration which apparently was not part of the original 'accusation'. I've said before this part I find hard to believe without more corroborating evidence.

So to answer your question. Yeah, I can see many people believe the first part of her story and doubting the second, more recent revelations (e.g. me). Just because her more recent revelations are suspect doesn't mean the first part didn't happen. Does it rise to the level where Biden needs to step down? Not yet as far as I'm concerned.

Nevertheless, the question is why do you think Reade is doing this? Is it because of $$, her 15 min of fame/infamy, a woman scorned (e.g. not being believed on the first part) etc. or a combination?

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Edward64

My understanding is there is consistency in her accusing Biden of making her uncomfortable. It occurred a while ago, she told people back then about it then etc., and we have other women reporting similar pattern about Biden getting too touchy feely. I can easily believe this happened.

However, I don't think that rises to 'sexual harassment' vs older guy not changing with times. It does become sexual harassment if he's been told to not do it again but continues to do it.

The difference now is she is accusing him of finger penetration which apparently was not part of the original 'accusation'. I've said before this part I find hard to believe without more corroborating evidence.

So to answer your question. Yeah, I can see many people believe the first part of her story and doubting the second, more recent revelations (e.g. me). Just because her more recent revelations are suspect doesn't mean the first part didn't happen. Does it rise to the level where Biden needs to step down? Not yet as far as I'm concerned.

Nevertheless, the question is why do you think Reade is doing this? Is it because of $$, her 15 min of fame/infamy, a woman scorned (e.g. not being believed on the first part) etc. or a combination?

The agonizing story of Tara Reade and her sexual assault allegation against Joe Biden - Vox

In April 2019, a woman named Tara Reade reached out to me with a clear, consistent story to tell about her experience as a staffer in Joe Biden’s Senate office in 1993. I spent hours on the phone with her, and many more tracking down possible witnesses and documents, trying to confirm her account.

Reade told me that a senior aide told her Biden liked her legs and that he wanted her to serve cocktails at a fundraiser for him, a request she found demeaning and declined. When she later complained to others in the office that Biden would put his hands on her shoulder, neck, and hair during meetings in ways that made her uncomfortable, she says she was blamed and told to dress more conservatively. Within a few months, she said, her responsibilities had been stripped and she felt she was being pushed out of the job. She went back home to California deflated.

Reade told me that she wanted me to think of this story as being about abuse of power, “but not sexual misconduct.” Her emphasis was on how she was treated in Biden’s office by Senate aides, who she said retaliated against her for complaining about how Biden touched her in meetings. “I don’t know if [Biden] knew why I left,” she said. “He barely knew us by name.”

First, that's from someone that thoroughly investigated her initial claims a year ago. Her mother's interview makes as hell of a lot more sense when you look at things from this perspective. And, yes it's creepy and wrong, but I'm sure it was also fairly common in politics in '93.

Second, who the hell knows. She's a huge Bernie supporter (why did she come forward with the new story on a bernie podcast?) and hired a Trump donor to represent her. It could be money, it could be for attention, or it could be payback for being forced out of a job.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Edward64

However, I don't think that rises to 'sexual harassment' vs older guy not changing with times. It does become sexual harassment if he's been told to not do it again but continues to do it.

You would be wrong. The "old guy not changing" excuse is disgustingly played out. Sexual harassment is all about how your actions make someone feel, not your justification for them. Unwanted touching certainly falls into the realm of sexual harassment.

[Jas_lov]

Why not tell the story earlier when Bernie could have won? Or in 2008 when Biden ran as VP. Just seems strange it's only now that Biden is presumptive nominee. I just hope this doesn't become the new "emails" that the media gives equal weight to Trump's 20 accusers.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Lathum

You would be wrong. The "old guy not changing" excuse is disgustingly played out. Sexual harassment is all about how your actions make someone feel, not your justification for them. Unwanted touching certainly falls into the realm of sexual harassment.

So you think Biden is guilty of sexual harassment. Under your criteria, he's been guilty many times. I personally don't think its risen to that level and I doubt Reade's recent sexual assault claim without more corroborating evidence.

And you will vote for Biden in Nov ... why if you believe he is a serial sexual harasser?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Jas_lov

Why not tell the story earlier when Bernie could have won? Or in 2008 when Biden ran as VP. Just seems strange it's only now that Biden is presumptive nominee. I just hope this doesn't become the new "emails" that the media gives equal weight to Trump's 20 accusers.

I think she did try telling her story last year (see above Vox link, it said April 2019). What's strange to me is how she "escalated" the accusation from sexual harassment to sexual assault only recently.

Unless more comes out, I think Biden won't have to worry much about Reade. My guess is Biden is more vulnerable on the Hunter situation and that is where Trump & GOP will focus more on.

[bronconick]

Originally Posted by Edward64

So you think Biden is guilty of sexual harassment. Under your criteria, he's been guilty many times. I personally don't think its risen to that level and I doubt Reade's recent sexual assault claim without more corroborating evidence.

And you will vote for Biden in Nov ... why if you believe he is a serial sexual harasser?

Because the other possible winner while I live in a battleground state is a sexual predator who has shown how overwhelmingly bad he is at this job and I want a few years when I don't read or think "What the fuck?" about my President twice daily.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I think she did try telling her story last year (see above Vox link, it said April 2019). What's strange to me is how she "escalated" the accusation from sexual harassment to sexual assault only recently.

Unless more comes out, I think Biden won't have to worry much about Reade. My guess is Biden is more vulnerable on the Hunter situation and that is where Trump & GOP will focus more on.

They are already ramping up on both, while completely ignoring the fact that Trump is just as, if not more vulnerable on both fronts. The difference of course being is that Trump will never lose any of his hard core base, while the swing voters leaning Biden could be swayed enough to stay home or go third party, which will likely be the difference in the election.....Again

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Edward64

So you think Biden is guilty of sexual harassment. Under your criteria, he's been guilty many times. I personally don't think its risen to that level and I doubt Reade's recent sexual assault claim without more corroborating evidence.

And you will vote for Biden in Nov ... why if you believe he is a serial sexual harasser?

I never said Biden is guilty.

If he did what she claims, making her uncomfortable by putting his hands on her, then yes, he is guilty of sexual harassment.

You love posting links to literal meanings. Look up sexual harassment. It is very broad.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I never said Biden is guilty.

If he did what she claims, making her uncomfortable by putting his hands on her, then yes, he is guilty of sexual harassment.

You love posting links to literal meanings. Look up sexual harassment. It is very broad.

Simple question but an evasive non-answer. But okay, nvm.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Simple question but an evasive non-answer. But okay, nvm.

How is it a non answer?

Everything to you is a non answer if it isn't want you want to hear. I very clearly said I don't think he is guilty. Should be easy to extrapolate the rest from there.

Here is a page from your playbook.


https://www.un.org/womenwatch/osagi/pdf/whatissh.pdf

Therefore, sexual conduct is unwelcome
whenever the person subjected to it considers it unwelcome.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Lathum

How is it a non answer?

Everything to you is a non answer if it isn't want you want to hear. I very clearly said I don't think he is guilty. Should be easy to extrapolate the rest from there.

It's not easy to extrapolate (for me at least). Your quote on how you define sexual harassment is below.

You would be wrong. The "old guy not changing" excuse is disgustingly played out. Sexual harassment is all about how your actions make someone feel, not your justification for them. Unwanted touching certainly falls into the realm of sexual harassment.

I posted the below link previously. It starts with Reade but mid-way through you'll find the list of other women that Biden made uncomfortable with "unwanted touching".

The sexual assault allegation against Joe Biden, explained - Vox

Reports of “creepy” behavior by Biden, like standing too close to women for photo opportunities, have circulated for years, treated by some as little more than a joke. But those reports received more serious attention after Lucy Flores, a former candidate for lieutenant governor of Nevada, wrote in a March 2019 essay at The Cut that Biden had kissed her on the back of the head at a campaign event in 2014.

“I couldn’t move and I couldn’t say anything,” Flores wrote. “I wanted nothing more than to get Biden away from me.”

After that, other women spoke out to report similar experiences. Amy Lappos, for example, said that at a 2009 fundraiser, Biden touched her face and rubbed noses with her. And in April, Reade told the Union, a California newspaper, that Biden touched her several times in ways that made her feel uncomfortable, and that her duties in his Senate office were reduced after she refused to serve drinks at an event. She said he wanted her there because he liked her legs.

A few days after women began coming forward with reports of inappropriate touching by him, the former vice president issued a statement saying that “social norms have begun to change” around people’s personal space and that he would be more mindful of boundaries in the future.

So I'm confused how you can say Biden is not guilty when, seemingly based on your definition, multiple women have said he has done the "unwanted touching"?

Originally Posted by Lathum

Here is a page from your playbook.

https://www.un.org/womenwatch/osagi/pdf/whatissh.pdf

Let's me get my wife's thoughts on this.

[Lathum]

Nowhere did I say I believe them. My comment about you not understanding what sexual harassment is has zero to do with who I am voting, but again you are trying to deflect to wedge your argument in to work.

I worked in HR. I am well versed in the definition.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Nowhere did I say I believe them. My comment about you not understanding what sexual harassment is has zero to do with who I am voting, but again you are trying to deflect to wedge your argument in to work.

I worked in HR. I am well versed in the definition.

Because of how tricky/evasive this conversation is getting ... "nowhere did I say I believed them" could also be "nowhere did I say I did not believe them".

So let's just cut to the chase with 2 direct questions to you.

(1) Is it correct to say that you do not believe the multiple women quoted in the Vox article?

(2) And if Biden did do all that the women (other than Reade) alleges, he would be guilty of sexual harassment?

[Lathum]

Edward. I've zero interest in your style of arguing. Have a great night

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Edward. I've zero interest in your style of arguing. Have a great night

I call it a discussion but fair enough, its all relative. Same to you.

[QuikSand]

On PredictIt, shares of Biden to actually be the Democratic nominee are selling at around 80 cents. I mean, I understand why, and I'm part of the problem as I'm holding shares of other candidates. But... 80 cents? On the surface of it, that's crazy, right?

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

On PredictIt, shares of Biden to actually be the Democratic nominee are selling at around 80 cents. I mean, I understand why, and I'm part of the problem as I'm holding shares of other candidates. But... 80 cents? On the surface of it, that's crazy, right?

I think so.

[GrantDawg]

What 74 former Biden staffers think about Tara Reade’s allegations | PBS NewsHour

[ISiddiqui]

From the PBS article:

The layout of that route and building has not changed. A recent walk through that area showed the subway tunnel contains no out-of-view areas, like an alcove. The remaining portion of the route includes multiple stairwells as well as corridors lined with offices. It is a main thoroughfare for senators and staffers.

Some former staffers told the NewsHour that if Biden did assault Reade in any of these places, it would have been a brazen attack in an area with a high risk of being seen.

“When I worked in the Senate, it was always crowded [and] packed with lobbyists, staff and tourists,” said Sheila Nix, who was Biden’s chief of staff on the 2012 presidential campaign and previously worked as chief of staff to two other Democratic senators.

In interviews, staffers have also raised doubts about Reade’s claim that she was asked to serve drinks at a fundraiser, an incident she said she included in an official complaint of sexual harassment submitted while she worked in the office.

But more than 50 former staffers said they didn’t remember ever attending a fundraiser for Biden in Washington, D.C., when they were on his Senate staff. And some recalled an office policy banning most of Biden’s Senate staff from doing campaign work.

Further, two men who worked as junior staffers for Biden said the senator specifically did not want women to serve beverages, like coffee, or perform other menial tasks in his Senate office or on the committees he chaired. Men were typically asked to perform such tasks.

“He didn’t want an image of a young woman staffer serving him,” said John Earnhardt, who took over Reade’s duties. Reade left the office in mid-1993, after working there approximately nine months.

Victoria Nourse, who served as Biden’s top lawyer on the Judiciary Committee in the early 1990s, recalled Biden’s reaction when another official made a comment about her looks in front of Biden during a flight in 1991. The man said, “‘Oh Joe, let me sit next to the pretty girl,’” recalled Nourse, who later served as Biden’s chief counsel in the White House.

Biden told the man off, Nourse said, “making it clear that we were here for work, and that was inappropriate — in a very no nonsense way.”

[Edward64]

The article deals more on Reade's sexual assault (finger penetration) allegation vs the sexual harassment (unwanted touching) allegations.

Sexual assault is pretty weak as Reade only made mention of it last year and there has been no accusations from others, so it's an outlier and pretty suspect. "Sexual harassment" with the unwanted touching is not an outlier so let's not ignore that Biden was a serial sexual harasser back then (albeit probably unknowingly as he's an old guy). The article brings up Biden's mea culpa regard changing social norms. It doesn't make it right but I believe it is an acceptable explanation.

IMO, although it fits the definition of sexual harassment, I don't think it rises to the level of sexual harassment where Biden should drop out. The mea culpa apology is good enough assuming there's been nothing since then or more egregious than touching of face, back, hair (vs fondling of butt, breasts etc.).

If Biden did sexually assault Reade (or others) and/or it comes out there is a pattern of sexual harassment that was more egregious, I would have a hard time voting for him and seriously consider a third party.

[PilotMan]

So you're still on the fence then and waiting for more proof, one way or the other.

[JPhillips]

And some recalled an office policy banning most of Biden’s Senate staff from doing campaign work.

How crazy have things gotten when the law is described like this? Staff paid by the government aren't allowed to do fundraising and fundraising is illegal on government property. Now, of course, we're at a place where this is mostly ignored, but the above quote makes it sound like some noble idealism of Biden's rather than simply obeying the law.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

So you're still on the fence then and waiting for more proof, one way or the other.

No, I've got Biden as my default decision.

However if more information does come out that shows Biden is more than just oblivious sexual harasser (e.g. inappropriately touching face, hair, back etc.) to a sexual predator/assault then I would want to re-evaluate.

[thesloppy]

It's hard not to feel like Biden's campaign has evolved into simply "lay low". Super compelling stuff.

[bronconick]

Trump is so good at sucking the oxygen out of the news cycle to be about him (usually by choice) over the last four years that you almost have to plan of running in such an environment.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

It's hard not to feel like Biden's campaign has evolved into simply "lay low". Super compelling stuff.

It's May. The nomination is locked up. trump is drowning in his own mess. The House is working on your planks for recovery. There's a long time between now and November, and your base is ready to jump when you say jump. Now is not the time to worry about being the lead in the news cycle. You can only maintain that much energy for so long.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

It's hard not to feel like Biden's campaign has evolved into simply "lay low". Super compelling stuff.

When the other guy is tripping over his response to a national crisis, you just let him

SI

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

It's hard not to feel like Biden's campaign has evolved into simply "lay low". Super compelling stuff.

During the contested primary, Biden laid low while every other candidate fought for attention.

Then people started voting.

And Biden won easily.

He lost the twitter primary, but won the actual primary.

[thesloppy]

To be clear, it makes perfect sense as a political strategy against this particular candidate, but it's hard to get excited about that becoming the one and only bar to clear. We alllllmost got a progressive OR younger OR a person of color OR a woman candidate, but instead we get to lean into laying low with an 80 yr old white dude with an invisible platform and a long, long record of practically always making the wrong decision (and we also get to pretend that 'laying low with a nebulous platform' wasn't largely Hillary's strategy in 2016).

[tarcone]

Saw my first Anti-Biden commercial today. Its only May.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

(and we also get to pretend that 'laying low with a nebulous platform' wasn't largely Hillary's strategy in 2016).

This may be the first time I've seen someone say Hillary Clinton was "laying low" in 2016. Campaigning in the wrong states, yes. Spending too much time with celebs, yes. But laying low?

And, not that I'll probably be able to convince you of this, but Clinton had more policy white papers than Warren did this year. However, the general election quickly because about personality over policy, so it didn't matter.

I find that Hillary Clinton is an interesting Rorschach test. I had one good friend who called her a "Republican" and said her platform was pro-corporate through the primaries and the general (and held his nose and voted for her in the general). I have another good friend who said she was too far left as was her platform (and he probably voted for the Libertarian candidate). I know some who were pissed she was for Black Lives Matter and brought on the Mothers of the Movement onto the stage at the DNC. And others who thought she was terrible on race issues and didn't go far enough in pushing Black Lives Matter policies.

I remember that people ascribed their best thoughts onto Obama. Moderates felt he was a moderate, progressives felt he was a progressive. It seems Hillary Clinton is the opposite - people ascribe their worst thoughts onto her. Moderates felt she was pretty left, progressives felt she was a Republican.

[JPhillips]

The good news is that an election with an incumbent is almost always going to be a referendum on the incumbent. As long as the opposition is basically a generic Dem/GOPer, the focus will be on whether to give the incumbent four more years.

Some more good news is that campaigns probably matter a lot less than we think. Most people aren't persuadable and those that are often make decisions entirely unrelated to things the candidates can control.

The bad news is that incumbents almost always win.

[ISiddiqui]

I believe though as the race is more prevalent, incumbency advantage decreases. Senate incumbency rates, while high, are less than House incumbency rates.

[Edward64]

Supposedly Biden's nickname for Trump is "President Tweety".

Pretty lame IMO.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Supposedly Biden's nickname for Trump is "President Tweety".

Pretty lame IMO.

If Biden gets into a name calling contest with Trump, he loses easily.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

And, not that I'll probably be able to convince you of this, but Clinton had more policy white papers than Warren did this year. However, the general election quickly because about personality over policy, so it didn't matter.

I find that Hillary Clinton is an interesting Rorschach test. I had one good friend who called her a "Republican" and said her platform was pro-corporate through the primaries and the general (and held his nose and voted for her in the general). I have another good friend who said she was too far left as was her platform (and he probably voted for the Libertarian candidate). I know some who were pissed she was for Black Lives Matter and brought on the Mothers of the Movement onto the stage at the DNC. And others who thought she was terrible on race issues and didn't go far enough in pushing Black Lives Matter policies.

I remember that people ascribed their best thoughts onto Obama. Moderates felt he was a moderate, progressives felt he was a progressive. It seems Hillary Clinton is the opposite - people ascribe their worst thoughts onto her. Moderates felt she was pretty left, progressives felt she was a Republican.

Well, I feel like these things are all consistent with my perspective, rather than challenging it. Hillary failed miserably at presenting her platform consistently, to the point that nobody knew what her platform was. That there was actually some substance to the platform is only further indictment of her campaign. Likewise I feel like if, after 20 years of government service, nobody can agree on what your politics are, that is an indictment of the politician, not the people.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

Well, I feel like these things are all consistent with my perspective, rather than challenging it. Hillary failed miserably at presenting her platform consistently, to the point that nobody knew what her platform was. That there was actually some substance to the platform is only further indictment of her campaign. Likewise I feel like if, after 20 years of government service, nobody can agree on what your politics are, that is an indictment of the politician, not the people.

I think it's more indicative of the fact that people just projected views onto her rather than actually paying attention. She was very, very, very clear that her policy proposals were a center-left Democrat, dedicated to continuing and deepening the Obama administration achievements. Especially on health care. Every speech she gave focused on policy considerations, with a few jabs at her opponent (as everyone does). In the debates she discussed policy differences. She basically ran as every Vice President who runs after a 2 term President does - but no one said George HW Bush had 'no substance' to his platform even though he ran on continuing the Reagan years a little more 'kinder and gentler'. No one said Al Gore had 'no substance' to his platform, even though he ran on continuing the Clinton years.

And she's always been a center left Democrat, even when right wingers were calling her a socialist for pushing universal health care in the early 1990s. However, the Bernie left now believes that center-left Democrats are "Republicans". They thought it about Clinton, they now think it about Biden, they've re-put the moniker on Bill Clinton, and they've even started to turn on Obama (the same person that liked saying Hillary was a Republican, now says Obama was one too... though he never said in the 8 years Obama was in the White House).

And I think people knew very well what her policy positions were, they just wanted to call those policy positions "Republican" or "far left" for whatever strange reasons. You see it with Biden - or Klobuchar or Buttigieg.

[albionmoonlight]

Why Democrats Can’t Rely On Voter Anger This November | FiveThirtyEight

[thesloppy]

To be fair, I have definitely categorized Bill as a fiscal conservative, criticized Obama for the same through his entire presidency, and consider center-left politics a misnomer.

[JPhillips]

Two things are always true.

1 A more moderate candidate wins the Dem nomination.

2 The GOP will call any Dem nominee a far-left socialist.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

To be fair, I have definitely categorized Bill as a fiscal conservative, criticized Obama for the same through his entire presidency, and consider center-left politics a misnomer.

Which is the problem - because then 'center-left' politicians are defined by the left as either having a right leaning platform or "they have no platform", which seems completely at odds to me.

Not to mention compared to the Republican platform, putting moderate Dems on the right is baffling... and then you have "we have two right wing parties in this country" stuff, which ignores that the political spectrum is relative and perhaps the center in this country is a bit further to the right that you may have hoped for.