Youth Baseball - Collisions at home plate

[Atocep]

Last night I saw something I've never seen in youth baseball. In our 12u game last night with 2 outs in the first inning we threw down to 2nd causing the opposing team's runner on 3rd to break for home. We throw back home and had the runner by a good step and a half. The runner then crosses his arms in front front of him like you would set a pick in basketball and goes full speed directly into my catcher. The umpire calls the runner out, but no ejection. I was honestly stunned.

As luck would have it someone from the opposing team was filming and had video of the play. I rewatched it and clearly saw what I described above. No ejection. The explanation I was given by the home plate umpire was he didn't feel there was malicious intent. The catcher on this play was my son and I had to turn the game over to my assistants to take him to the ER to be checked for a concussion. He was diagnosed with a slight concussion and had a headache until about noon today. He's doing great now, but there was definitely quite a bit of force behind the hit.

Today I met with my assistants and found out that things got worse from there. There was a 2nd play at the plate during the game where our catcher received the ball and had the runner out by several steps. The runner never slowed down and didn't slide. The catcher held the glove out and the runner tried to run through the tag hard to force the ball loose. This time the umpire didn't bother calling anything but the out at the plate. When asked about possibly giving a warning or talking to the other team about sliding into home plate, especially after what happened earlier, the home plate umpire said it's slide or avoid and there was nothing wrong with what the player did. There was also an incident with their assistant coach after the game that was a distasteful and awful comment to make after what took place.

This is 12u select baseball played under PONY rules. The players are well trained and coached so it's not like they don't know better. My question is for those that have umpired this level, do you have any idea why the player in the first situation wasn't immediately ejected? Also, after the first incident shouldn't the umpire be more aware of the safety of the kids and at the very least say something after the 2nd incident?

[DaddyTorgo]

No knowledge of youth baseball anymore, but that's fucking ridiculous. There need to be consequences from the league, and/or you need to consider legal action, and/or you should pull your kid out.

That's fucking ridiculous (yes I'm repeating myself, I'm fucking stunned).

[stevew]

Should have pulled team off field after 2nd occurrence.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by stevew

Should have pulled team off field after 2nd occurrence.

If not the first. Sounds like that other team had a clear strategy of doing that.

If the ump won't protect your kids then it's your job as a parent to.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I did find where "slide or avoid" is indeed the applicable rule for Little League, no clue about whether Pony has the same wording though. That at least does sound plausible. If you click on the link & check question #11, it actually references the other response too, an attempt to injure can warrant ejection but the penalty for not sliding or attempting to avoid is simply being called out.

Further, that same play (the second) once is somewhat covered in that question as well. It talks about the contact from more of a swipe tag attempt but when you say "held the glove out" that might be close enough to be included under those rules as well, the explanation being that "contact" isn't banned per se. And, if there was no intent to injure then the only applicable penalty is being called out (which it sounds like the second runner was anyway).

[CU Tiger]

12U select is highly competitive.
My son plays pony league but honestly isn't that great.
That said we had a similar issue a couple weeks ago, but in our case our catcher was blocking the plate without the ball. Our coach made a huge deal of it and I thought he was petty.

Now play at the plate, the runner should slide, BUT if the catcher doesnt have the ball and he blocks the plate...well baseball is a fairly rough game and 12u select kids have it down. Heck locally 12u is wearing spikes and sliding feet up on double plays...it is part of the game.

But if a kid is going out of his way attempting to injur that is a different story for sure.

[CU Tiger]

double post

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

12U select is highly competitive.
My son plays pony league but honestly isn't that great.
That said we had a similar issue a couple weeks ago, but in our case our catcher was blocking the plate without the ball. Our coach made a huge deal of it and I thought he was petty. Now play at the plate, the runner should slide, BUT if the catcher doesnt have the ball and he blocks the plate

Another situation that was covered by that link I mentioned, at least for LL that gives the runner the base via delayed interference. Mentioned because it again makes me wonder whether there's a difference on LL rules vs Pony rules.

Heck locally 12u is wearing spikes and sliding feet up on double plays...it is part of the game.

That's the baseball I grew up with, both on the receiving end of those spikes AND on the delivery end of a throw back to first that might have taken the cap off the same runner a few innings later.

[TLK]

Was Mitch Williams coaching the other team?

[Atocep]

What I did was as soon as I was told the player wasn't going to be ejected was I told the umpire we would play the game under protest. At the very least I wanted to make sure there would be an umpire report that would be sent to our league and the head of umpires. I plan on dropping the protest, but I want to be sure this is something that is looked at closely. PONY rules are rather vague on the issue while under NCAA, American Legion, and several other organization's rules the wording for ejection is Flagrant which this would have clearly fallen under.

We actually have to play this team again this evening. I know the head coach of this team and he has a reputation of being a bit of an ass during games, but off the field seems like a decent guy. Since we play again today and I know the coach I was ready to just drop the issue from my end and try to turn into something positive. I planned seeing if the other coach would mind if we got the kids together 15 minutes before the game and just had a brief talk and went out to play with the focus on having fun and encouraging one another. That was before I found out what happened after the game from my assistant coaches.

After the game the opposing coach tried to come over to my assistant coaches and smooth things over a bit. Not the best idea considering tensions were already really high. This was something that needed to die down for at least 24 hours before addressed directly. He got an earful from one of my assistants on dirty play and respect for the game, ect. Stern, but nothing over the top according to someone I trust quite a bit. Their coach then got really defensive, but things started to calm down until their assistant decided to chime in and said (paraphrasing) "If we don't like the hard baseball they play that's too bad. Given the chance to do the play over they'd do the same thing".

My intentions to drop the issue went out the door with that comment. I will still drop the protest because I really don't want to replay the game, but I sent an official report of the incident to our league last night (up until then I had just made them aware of what happened and told them the game was played under protest). I will follow up on this until there is an explanation from the umpire and a resolution from the league.

[HerRealName]

Forget bringing the kids together, they aren't the problem. It sounds like you would be better off getting rid of all the assistant coaches.

[Lathum]

My kid is on pace to be about 6-4 and he is already very coordinated. I have no doubt he will be a very good athlete. Shit like this is why I am tempted to push him towards art or music as hobbies instead of sports. And yes, I get we can't push our kids towards stuff blah blah blah.

[MacroGuru]

I took a beating at catcher from 8 until I hung up the mask at the age of 16. I don't think anyone ever slid. I was small and everyone tried to truck me so I focused on holding onto the ball more than anything else. If I could do that and they initiated contact, they were going to be called out as long as I held onto the ball.

I never received a concussion or injury from it, but I was also taught to block the plate. I know it's a different age and time now and player safety is paramount.

With that being said, if you feel that it was justified and outside the rules of play and ejection should have happened I Would force the issue.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by MacroGuru

I took a beating at catcher from 8 until I hung up the mask at the age of 16. I don't think anyone ever slid. I was small and everyone tried to truck me so I focused on holding onto the ball more than anything else. If I could do that and they initiated contact, they were going to be called out as long as I held onto the ball.

I never received a concussion or injury from it, but I was also taught to block the plate. I know it's a different age and time now and player safety is paramount.

With that being said, if you feel that it was justified and outside the rules of play and ejection should have happened I Would force the issue.

I saw it when I was young too. What makes it even more dangerous now is that catchers aren't taught to brace/position themselves for a potential collision at the plate because one should never happen. I've seen slide to avoid enforced as strict as a player getting ejected for coming into 2nd base standing up on a play at 2nd at a tournament (the team had been warned earlier).

What kept this from being much worse than it was is he's been taught to keep his mask on at all times on the field. That's the instruction he received from a coach in the dodgers organization and he found out why on Thursday night.

I do think the player should have been ejected based on what I've seen in the past. I thought it was a clear ejection and shouldn't have really been debatable. This is an umpire I really don't care much for as well. I've seen 20+ umpires from this organization and he's the only one I don't want to see calling my games. My other experience with him was our league championship game last year there was a mixup and two umpires had to be called in to do our game at the last minute. We assumed the game would start 5-10 minutes late based on what we were hearing from the head of umpires, but this umpire was actually able to make it to the parking lot on time. However, he spent 20 minutes at his car taking his time to get ready before slowly walking over to the field. He then spent most of the meeting with the coaches at home plate complaining about how he got called out to do this game and really didn't want to be there. I was also told he looked disinterested and acted like it was the last place he wanted to be after initial play at the plate in the game Thursday.

My recommendation to the league is to tighten up the grey area PONY leaves in its rules for this. Flagrant contact above the waist should be an automatic ejection. Any suspension from there can be based on intent.

These collisions are something that is happening too often right now. There was actually a play on another field the same night where a player lowered his shoulder into a catcher who was blocking the plate when there was no play. Catcher should not have been there, but the player obviously shouldn't have done that. We also had an incident last year where a catcher took a knee to the jaw on a bang-bang play at the plate. In this particular incident it wasn't done intentionally, but the player should have slid. The catcher spent the night in the ER, missed 3 weeks of school, and missed over a month of baseball.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I did find where "slide or avoid" is indeed the applicable rule for Little League, no clue about whether Pony has the same wording though. That at least does sound plausible. If you click on the link & check question #11, it actually references the other response too, an attempt to injure can warrant ejection but the penalty for not sliding or attempting to avoid is simply being called out.

Further, that same play (the second) once is somewhat covered in that question as well. It talks about the contact from more of a swipe tag attempt but when you say "held the glove out" that might be close enough to be included under those rules as well, the explanation being that "contact" isn't banned per se. And, if there was no intent to injure then the only applicable penalty is being called out (which it sounds like the second runner was anyway).

I've been reading up on various rules leagues have and was saddened to see that the NCAA has stricter rules on this type of play than PONY or Little League.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Atocep

There was actually a play on another field the same night where a player lowered his shoulder into a catcher who was blocking the plate when there was no play. Catcher should not have been there, but the player obviously shouldn't have done that.

Actually, if there's contact on a play when there's no play (i.e. the ball isn't there) then it should be an automatic run based on fielder interference. Making contact would seem to be the obviously correct play there.

I take no issue with anybody wanted whatever applicable rule to be enforced, that's totally up & up. I do take issue with the fact that a lot of these non-traditional rules have been introduced in the first place.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Actually, if there's contact on a play when there's no play (i.e. the ball isn't there) then it should be an automatic run based on fielder interference. Making contact would seem to be the obviously correct play there.

Yep, that's obstruction on the catcher's part and it's better to be safe than sorry and prove it unless you know how the ump would call it. Doesn't really need to be a full-force forearm shiver though!

[miked]

I play in an adult baseball league. Failure to slide at home is an automatic ejection. I've been tossed for not sliding and I was sort of pulling up but not enough. This is competitive 18+ as well with lots of college kids home for the summer. Adults make rules to protect themselves, seems like they should do the same for kids.

[flere-imsaho]

Youth sports: the last refuge for assholes who want to prove something to the world (not you, Atocep).

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Youth sports: the last refuge for assholes who want to prove something to the world (not you, Atocep).

Last time I checked assholes thrive in every environment/community. This is just a horribly prejudicial thing to say. The vast majority have a love of the game and want kids to learn about it and enjoy it.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Last time I checked assholes thrive in every environment/community. This is just a horribly prejudicial thing to say. The vast majority have a love of the game and want kids to learn about it and enjoy it.

It's 50-50. So many parents think their kid is going to get a scholarship, every kid should win at all costs, so many dads living their glory years because their life is somehow incomplete without it and they've decided that this is their chance to show how great a coach they are.

There are a lot of good ones too but it's not the clear majority anymore.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Last time I checked assholes thrive in every environment/community. This is just a horribly prejudicial thing to say. The vast majority have a love of the game and want kids to learn about it and enjoy it.

Youth sports brings it out better than almost any other environment/community though. Youth baseball, the asshole parents feel entitled to come on the field between innings and give the umpires a piece of their mind.

I had an asshole 7 or 8 years ago come on the field and threaten to kick my teeth in because I hadn't called his son hit by a pitch.

(Here's the fun part: he wasn't hit by it. It was a tight inside pitch, but it didn't hit him, he didn't react to it. The coaches run out and start examining his arm and rubbing it and yelling at me and he took the cue from their body language that he was supposed to be hurt and started crying; his dad came on the field after the half-inning ended and threatened to "kick your teeth in if you don't get your shit together.")

You're right. Assholes are everywhere. But many assholes are hypercompetitive, and youth sports brings out the worst in them.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

Youth sports brings it out better than almost any other environment/community though. Youth baseball, the asshole parents feel entitled to come on the field between innings and give the umpires a piece of their mind.

I had an asshole 7 or 8 years ago come on the field and threaten to kick my teeth in because I hadn't called his son hit by a pitch.

(Here's the fun part: he wasn't hit by it. It was a tight inside pitch, but it didn't hit him, he didn't react to it. The coaches run out and start examining his arm and rubbing it and yelling at me and he took the cue from their body language that he was supposed to be hurt and started crying; his dad came on the field after the half-inning ended and threatened to "kick your teeth in if you don't get your shit together.")

You're right. Assholes are everywhere. But many assholes are hypercompetitive, and youth sports brings out the worst in them.

How anyone can sit there with a straight face and argue that youth sports doesn't bring out the worst in hypercompetitive, over-compensating parents is a mystery to me. How many incidents of post-game/practice violence have their been around youth sports?

Fights after hockey practices? Didn't some parent get like beaten/shot to death over a hockey game?

I think that people that deny this are just trying to glorify youth sports as some sort of bastion of purity from their childhood that it perhaps never was, and certainly isn't anymore.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

I think that people that deny this are just trying to glorify youth sports as some sort of bastion of purity from their childhood that it perhaps never was, and certainly isn't anymore.

That's not a point I'd argue.

At the same time, it's also (still) arguably the most corrupt thing I've ever been associated with too. From playing time based on the parent's social standing to nepotistic umpires to administrators trying to curry favor or simply scratch an itch for power that the rest of their life fails to provide ... well, I'd say that there's more that brings out the anger than just parents living out their youth/dreams vicariously.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Last time I checked assholes thrive in every environment/community. This is just a horribly prejudicial thing to say. The vast majority have a love of the game and want kids to learn about it and enjoy it.

What rowech, Sack, DT and Jon said.

Just to be clear, though, this:

Originally Posted by Dutch

The vast majority have a love of the game and want kids to learn about it and enjoy it.

is not mutually exclusive with this:

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Youth sports: the last refuge for assholes who want to prove something to the world

Youth sports isn't the only environment where assholes exist, but hoo boy does it bring them out and let them amplify their own assholery.

[Drake]

When I was a kid, the first hard out would have merited the catcher aiming the ball and glove at mouth level (plus a little english) for anyone else who wanted to try a play at the plate.

Even better if they tried to slide.

ETA: I coached 9-12 y.o. for a couple of years, then followed my sons up to Babe Ruth as a spectator, and was really surprised that the change in the vibe from the youth baseball to teenaged baseball. It probably had something to do with the fact that we only managed 5 or 6 teams of 12 players each, and they worked hard to split the HS varsity and JV evenly among the squads. What you ended up with was a much more friendly atmosphere where the kids were cheering each other on and working on their mechanics for the high school season. I was sorry to see that period in my boys' life end.

[lungs]

I played from eight years old until I was 21 years old and don't remember playing in a league that allowed home plate collisions. Runner was always ejected and suspended for one game. That included adult league.

[Atocep]

As mentioned above, we played them again Saturday. Of course I got the talk from their coach before the game about how sorry he was that it happened and he would have gone with the umpire's decision either way if he had ejected his son. Since this is league play and not tournaments I told him I'd like to get past this and not let it hang over the player's heads. What I'd like to see is the kids just go out and have some fun playing baseball and encourage one another. I got the "of course, that's what this is all about" line. Then the game started...

We jumped out to a 4 run lead after 2 and then the wheels fell off for us. We just allowed bad plays to bring us further and further down. They have a team that's been together for 4 years and I have a team that's in its first year together. It shows in a lot of aspects of the game. The frustrating thing is once my players got down, and it was clear they were down, they tried to push us further down. Down 8 I put in a (clearly) developmental pitcher and they were stealing on first move. Down 10 they were showing bunt to get the infield moving and stealing. Down 12 they were going first pitch and first movement.

If it had been a tournament I could get it. I wouldn't approve myself, but run difference plays a role in seeding and tie breakers. In league play, especially after what we went through Thursday, there's no place for it.

They will feel some backlash from their actions though. I coach for an organization that has probably the most sought after indoor facilities and trainers in the area. I've been told their team is no longer welcome in our facilities and will be told as much the next time they call asking for time indoors. On top of this a reputation is starting to form among the other coaches in the area and coaches have been telling me stories of the stunts this team has pulled.

[flere-imsaho]

Given that the coach did come over and apologize, and then what happened next, I peg him as the kind of asshole who just can't help himself.

[grdawg]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Down 8 I put in a (clearly) developmental pitcher and they were stealing on first move. Down 10 they were showing bunt to get the infield moving and stealing. Down 12 they were going first pitch and first movement.
.

I hate this kind of stuff. I always hated when coaches teach their kids to take advantage of players who are developing and take extra bases at their expense. It cheapens the learning process and the fun of the game. I was coaching my sons U6 (tee ball/coach pitch) where we don't even keep score or outs, everyone bats and it is about teaching the kids the game and getting them excited to play. The rule is that once the ball is back into the infield, the runners cannot advance. Even at this level you'd have coaches that would tell their kids to keep running. I am the most mild mannered guy, but that kind of stuff really pisses me off and I would let the other coaches know that.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Atocep

We jumped out to a 4 run lead after 2 and then the wheels fell off for us ...

How deep are these rosters (sorry if I've missed that being mentioned anywhere), and did the other team sub?

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by MacroGuru

I took a beating at catcher from 8 until I hung up the mask at the age of 16. I don't think anyone ever slid. I was small and everyone tried to truck me so I focused on holding onto the ball more than anything else. If I could do that and they initiated contact, they were going to be called out as long as I held onto the ball.

I never received a concussion or injury from it, but I was also taught to block the plate. I know it's a different age and time now and player safety is paramount.

With that being said, if you feel that it was justified and outside the rules of play and ejection should have happened I Would force the issue.

I was a catcher for roughly the same ages. I was also a big kid so no one ever tried to bowl me over. I tried to bowl over a few people as a runner, but usually the catcher saw me coming and got out of the way. The only time I ever got taken out by a runner was when I was actually playing second base and I had a runner on a double play ball barrel into me below the waist and flipped me in the air. I did a 270 in the air and landed flat on my back. The runner was called safe because I dropped the ball.

Not trying to be a dick, but based on the description provided I'm not sure I see a problem. Did the runner run out of the baseline or alter his path to the plate to initiate contact with the catcher? That's really the only way the batter is out. If your catcher dropped the ball in both cases, I'm not even sure why the batter was called out.

In your first example you said the ball beat the runner by a step and a half. That's the definition of bang-bang play. I'm not away of any PONY rule requiring the runner to slide or avoid the catcher. As long as the runner is in the baseline and takes a direct path, it's his baseline. The catcher can only block the plate if they have the ball.

[Logan]

I used to play in a semi-competitive adult softball league that had the slide or avoid, otherwise ejected rule. If PONY really doesn't have that, they should get on that or be prepared for the eventually lawsuit.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Logan

I used to play in a semi-competitive adult softball league that had the slide or avoid, otherwise ejected rule. If PONY really doesn't have that, they should get on that or be prepared for the eventually lawsuit.

Best I can tell, fwiw, a fair number of associations include "must slide" provisions among their locally amended rules.

That said however, the most prominent result I've found in multiple searches on variations of the phrase are explanations for (and by) umpires clarifying that there is no general "must slide" rule. It typically applies to situations where the catcher is blocking the plate AND in possession of the ball, in which case the most common must slide provisions usually kick in. In any other circumstance, including simultaneously arrival of ball and runner, there is no requirement to slide ... unless local rules say otherwise.

[Atocep]

PONY uses slide or avoid.

The feedback I've gotten since the incident has been: The field umpire came up to me when I was watching another game asking how my son was and told me it wasn't his call, but in his opinion it was a no doubt ejection. The feedback we got from the head of umpires is that in his opinion the PONY rules are too vague so what his umpires are instructed to watch for is flagrant contact similar to the college game now. They're not trying to determine intent out there. He said that based on the report he read and the events as described to him what should have happened is what I initially thought. On the first play the batter is out for failing to slide. The batter is also ejected for flagrant contact with no attempt to avoid the catcher. The 2nd incident would normally be a warning but considering what happened in the 1st inning he probably should have been an ejection as well.

The video still hasn't been turned over to the league and I don't think they'll ever see it. The league isn't looking for it for punishment as much as they'd like to use it as a training video for umpires (which I support 100%). The comments after the game by the assistant coach are being investigated.

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Best I can tell, fwiw, a fair number of associations include "must slide" provisions among their locally amended rules.

That said however, the most prominent result I've found in multiple searches on variations of the phrase are explanations for (and by) umpires clarifying that there is no general "must slide" rule. It typically applies to situations where the catcher is blocking the plate AND in possession of the ball, in which case the most common must slide provisions usually kick in. In any other circumstance, including simultaneously arrival of ball and runner, there is no requirement to slide ... unless local rules say otherwise.

The makes sense. If there is a local "must slide rule," then you have to slide or avoid. I'm still not a huge fan of that rule. To me, the baseline belongs to the runner. If you want to eliminate collisions, then to me it should be the defensive player who can't block the base. You can tag a guy without blocking the plate.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

The makes sense. If there is a local "must slide rule," then you have to slide or avoid. I'm still not a huge fan of that rule. To me, the baseline belongs to the runner. If you want to eliminate collisions, then to me it should be the defensive player who can't block the base. You can tag a guy without blocking the plate.

+1

[Subby]

I'm the president of our local little league and I would say, without question, that most of our kids would be happier if adults were not allowed within 1,000 feet of the field during games. The glory hounds are a minority, sure, but are completely terrible. However, that pales in comparison to the MASSIVE overcoaching the kids are getting during the games. If we can't enforce the no adults rule, maybe a STFU rule might work better.

Seriously. Stop over-coaching during games. And parents who coach their kids from the stands should be duct taped to a light standard in the parking lot.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Subby

I'm the president of our local little league and I would say, without question, that most of our kids would be happier if adults were not allowed within 1,000 feet of the field during games. The glory hounds are a minority, sure, but are completely terrible. However, that pales in comparison to the MASSIVE overcoaching the kids are getting during the games. If we can't enforce the no adults rule, maybe a STFU rule might work better.

Seriously. Stop over-coaching during games. And parents who coach their kids from the stands should be duct taped to a light standard in the parking lot.

Of course, there's the small matter of (typically, YMMV) you're talking about the people who are footing the bill for all of this to exist.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

The makes sense. If there is a local "must slide rule," then you have to slide or avoid. I'm still not a huge fan of that rule. To me, the baseline belongs to the runner. If you want to eliminate collisions, then to me it should be the defensive player who can't block the base. You can tag a guy without blocking the plate.

But that just opens up the option for the runner to plow into the catcher who is standing a foot inside the base line trying to tag him. If the rule is slide or avoid, they'll slide in all cases and if the catcher is too far away from the base and can't apply the tag, you'll be wanting to slide anyway.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Of course, there's the small matter of (typically, YMMV) you're talking about the people who are footing the bill for all of this to exist.

My parents weren't those types of parents, but I had much more fun playing baseball in the park with friends than I ever did playing structured Little League. If my parents refused to pay, I would have realized that much sooner.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Logan

My parents weren't those types of parents, but I had much more fun playing baseball in the park with friends than I ever did playing structured Little League. If my parents refused to pay, I would have realized that much sooner.

Yeah, tennis ball backyard baseball with right field foul, the pitcher's hand rule and crossouts at home was so much more fun.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Logan

My parents weren't those types of parents, but I had much more fun playing baseball in the park with friends than I ever did playing structured Little League. If my parents refused to pay, I would have realized that much sooner.

Good luck finding places like that today. For that matter, good luck finding enough kids willing to play baseball to field one team, let alone two, outside of a structured setting.

I've coached in two separate stints, so I totally get the frustration with the coaching from the stands when it's contrary to the coaching on the field. My point was really more about the relatively unrealistic expectation that crops up from time to time that parents are somehow expected to sink several hundred dollars (in many cases) into something & then just drop the kids off and be disengaged.

It never cost a dime to play ball when I was a kid, those times have changed. It's an investment of both parental time AND money today, that comes with different expectations.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

It never cost a dime to play ball when I was a kid, those times have changed. It's an investment of both parental time AND money today, that comes with different expectations.

But those are the expectations of the parents. They should be the ones who need to change. Who says "being engaged" needs to be more than showing up for your kid and cheering them on, and offering actual constructive feedback/offering to help practice once he/she gets home?

It can cost thousands of dollars to send your kid to camp for the summer, which I'm assuming is many times more than what it costs to play little league now. You don't see many parents hovering around those kids all day, criticizing the arts and crafts instructor while yelling at their kid to glue wooden sticks together better.

But put those kids in a baseball camp with a tournament at the end, and I'm guessing you do. Why do you think that is?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Logan

But those are the expectations of the parents. They should be the ones who need to change.

Why? Those are the ones footing the bill after all. THEY determine the priorities, not ego-driven adminstrators who see the league as their own personal fiefdom often as not (note: I am NOT accusing Subby of this in the least, speaking entirely generally, I swear).

Who says "being engaged" needs to be more than showing up for your kid and cheering them on, and offering actual constructive feedback/offering to help practice once he/she gets home?

Let's go ahead & split this up though. There's certainly inappropriate levels of coaching from the stands, but at the same time there are leagues with "no cheering" rules. The latter is f'n idiocy but that's not unusual in today's society either.

It can cost thousands of dollars to send your kid to camp for the summer, which I'm assuming is many times more than what it costs to play little league now. You don't see many parents hovering around those kids all day, criticizing the arts and crafts instructor while yelling at their kid to glue wooden sticks together better.

I honestly know few people who send their kids to camp, be it for $10 or $1000 ... with the exception of specialty camps to hone a specific skill OR for something that will add to their college resume. Beyond that, there's "Vacation Bible School" for a week down the street but otherwise ... I didn't know "camp" even existed any more tbh.

But put those kids in a baseball camp with a tournament at the end, and I'm guessing you do. Why do you think that is?

Because competition is ultimately life. And teaching that is a very important & worthwhile part of parenting. Not everyone manages to do it gracefully and that's something that can stand improvement ... but it matters. And it matters a lot more, afaic, than whether somebody gets their 'ittle feelings hurt somewhere along the way.

[Subby]

I coach too and I realize that realistically there is no way you could get adults out of there. Toothpaste is out of the tube. And in reality, the large majority of parents and coaches in our league are beyond reproach. My point was more wishful thinking than anything else.

Still, if one more adult tells a pitcher to "just throw strikes"...

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Subby

Still, if one more adult tells a pitcher to "just throw strikes"...

Now that, specifically, I'd put into the category of "encouragement" rather than "coaching" (absent any specific context otherwise). I figure that's almost reflexive for some parents, as a generic encouragement.

Now screaming "quit throwing the curve & just blow it by this wuss" before ever pitch on the other hand ...

[Logan]

Jon, I was probably taking more of the wishful thinking approach too. Although to your first point, I don't remember hearing/seeing much in the way of league administrators back when I played. My issues were with my own coaches and other coaches. I'll certainly ask my father, but I don't recall him ever getting into it or venting his frustrations with the higher ups but who knows.

I'm guessing "camp" is also very regional. I don't think I had a single friend who didn't go to some camp and now parents are spending upwards of $10K to send their kids to sleepaway camps.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Logan

Although to your first point, I don't remember hearing/seeing much in the way of league administrators back when I played. My issues were with my own coaches and other coaches. I'll certainly ask my father, but I don't recall him ever getting into it or venting his frustrations with the higher ups but who knows.

As I recall, most of ours were also coaches (which created a fair bit of the problems right off the bat ... err, no pun intended). The food chain where I grew up went to county recreation director, who in turn answered to the sole county commissioner who ran pretty much everything (and yes, there were years where his hand was clearly at work on some things).

I'm guessing "camp" is also very regional. I don't think I had a single friend who didn't go to some camp and now parents are spending upwards of $10K to send their kids to sleepaway camps.

That very well could be. I do tend to think of "camp" in the classic sense as being a very northern thing.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Logan

I'm guessing "camp" is also very regional. I don't think I had a single friend who didn't go to some camp and now parents are spending upwards of $10K to send their kids to sleepaway camps.

Logan and I grew up one town over from each other and I will echo everyone went to camp.

I have nieces and nephews who still do.