Forum Opinion(RE: URGENT)

[Blade6119]

There has been concern raised in the past day or so about the upcoming Rome game, and my personal involvment. Many of you know me, and many have mixed opinions. Thats all nice and good, but the quandry that has arisen is in regards to the Rome game. The problem, as stated by PM, is that bek is also playing. For those who dont know, he is a close friend in real life. Id venture to say about 20 games ago, we played together and i got him killed off a joke PM he sent me(the reason we have the PM rules we have today), as i was evil, and it raised a big ruckus about meta-gaming(which, as stated, is the reason rules are now in place). Since then, we have played one other game together, about 10 ago. In this game, people suspected me but went after bek because they thought he might be a wolf, and if not he would be too easily influenced by me(the person raising these concerns was the one who stated this in that game).

Anyways, the point is this concerned party does not believe that bek and i should play in the same game together. Now, i am fully for maintaining the integrity of the game, but bek and i have never once cheated. Every game we see close personal relationships(ant and DC, married, are playing this game...saldana and lathum used to play together a lot and their best friends...lsg and GE are married, and they have played together). So my question, which im leaving up to you, is does the forum not want bek and i to participate in the same game. I will make the poll private, but i ask you to vote honestly.

[Lorena]

I'm cool with it

[Chief Rum]

I wouldn't worry. I am voting to lynch you on Day One anyway.

[Marc Vaughan]

I'm cool with it ... (my character won't survive long enough to be bothered either day ) ..

[hoopsguy]

Blade, the way you have represented this is completely inconsistent with why there is concern about the two of you playing together.

I voted "NO" and I think anyone who is aware of the history of the two of you playing together would vote the same way. A lot of this information has been kept quiet, but the fact that the two of you post from the same IP address, acted with information that should have been private for the other person, and actually cross-posted in Bek's game are all significant data points for someone trying to make a decision. Each of these was left out of the argument you listed.

Here is the cross-posting that took place in the first small game. Anyone who was paying attention could see that Bek's posts were shifting into Blade mode but you confirmed it in this sequence.

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

well I read what's gone down. sorry to lose a voice that I trusted as it seemed we were working up a COT. still one who I think I trust a bit. on my phone at the rehearsal dinner. I have stated before I felt this person suspicious and I agree it seems he has overplayed his role a bit.

I don't think I can bold on this browser...least it aint working so

VOTE BEK. VOTE BEK

Originally Posted by Blade6119

overplayed my role???...ive been trying to staying off GE's radar so I dont get killed at night. There is a reason that players get killed off at night and it is because the wolves think that they are a threat. I didnt want this to happen to me because then you all wouldnt have been able to hear what I had to say. So i'm sry if you feel like I have overplayed my role, but trust me when I say I was doing it in the best interest of the village.

--bek

Originally Posted by Blade6119

THAT POST IS BY BEK. MATT(AKA BEK) IS AT MY HOUSE USING MY BROWSER. DO NOT BE CONFUSED, MATT IS JUST A DUMBASS

[Lathum]

I wasn't to concerned with cheating in the survivor game so I'm not in this one.

[hoopsguy]

I'll be happy to give more specific examples, if needed. The fact that the vote was 5-0 in favor of "YES" prior to my vote indicates to me that people took your post at face value and didn't have adequate information. If there are legitimate reasons to be concerned about collusion, then what fun is a game like this. It is the equivalent of "betting on baseball" to me.

The reason no one questions people like Lathum/Saldana and LSG/GE about playing together is that their in-game actions have not given a reason to do so. I think most of us encourage having new people play the game, as long as there is a level playing field. There are compelling reasons to believe that is not the case in games where you and Bek are playing together.

[st.cronin]

Blade, if I had had a problem I certainly would have said something earlier. However, this is the sort of situation where we need to worry about pleasing the minority. If there are only two or three people who have an issue, that is still a significant problem.

[Barkeep49]

I was the one who brought the concern to Blade and Bek. This was after 3 players said something about it to me. Blade has always been an instinctive player, and a very good one at that. However as hoops has alluded to even beyond the first small game, there had been reason to suspect at the minimum that Blade and Bek succumbed to the very human instinct amongst friends to talk about the game. I know that Lathum and saldana sometimes avoid talking to each other at all during games just to make sure they don't inadvertently say something about WW they shouldn't.

In many ways I'm glad to see that the poll is so slanted towards Blade and am happy to see this be a community decision.

[path12]

I'm OK with it. As far as the cross posting goes, I will look at that as a one time thing. I trust everyone here to play the game honestly until proven otherwise.

[DaddyTorgo]

I voted yes. However i'd like my vote to be a "conditional yes." a "trial yes" if you will.

i'm all for second chances, and not stringing people up for one accident (when it's not in a game of WW that is). So how about we view this as a "trial" of sorts??

now maybe that's unfair to cronin and the theme of this game that i'm very much looking forward to, I don't know. but I think we need to see more evidence before we can roundly condemm?

I just don't want this WW-ving community to head down the path towards excluding people, or creating cliques or whatever you want to call it, without good solid reasoning.

So I vote it's fine they can play together, but they are both "on notice" so to speak. Maybe cronin will have a couple people willing to be alternates in case there's obvious funny-business (though I doubt there would be). And we can discuss after the game how we all thought it went.

make sense?

[Tyrith]

I'd feel a lot better about having blade and bek play together if there had only been one incident. It's happened at least twice already. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Tyrith

I'd feel a lot better about having blade and bek play together if there had only been one incident. It's happened at least twice already. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

two incidents? do tell. I guess i've only been a WW-player for one of them

[Tyrith]

I'd rather someone more impartial than myself tell the story, if possible, but I think it's about time the entire story was laid out from someone other than blade or myself. Honestly, I'd feel much better about this poll if blade wasn't the one that had started it.

[KWhit]

I was unaware of any of this, so more information is helpful. If there's still more to the story, now's probably the time to get it out there.

[Lorena]

I remember the game hoops was referring to cuz I was in it. I have posted under Ant's name by mistake and I feel Blade/Bek might have done the same thing.

Blade takes this game too seriously, I think, to cheat like that. We talk on AIM on a regular basis and not once has he spilled the beans on games where we've played together... NOT ONCE. I think it was an honest mistake.

[bulletsponge]

i say we let Blade play, he makes the game some much more fun with his wacky assertions. besides i bet we hang him early anyways. as long as he vows on his WW heart not to cheat

[Lorena]

dola,

so is it suggested that blade or bek withdraw because of WHO says no as opposed to what the majority says? That's how it's looking.

[Lorena]

Originally Posted by bulletsponge

i say we let Blade play, he makes the game some much more fun with his wacky assertions. besides i bet we hang him early anyways. as long as he vows on his WW heart not to cheat

Either that or he gets night killed... yup, I totally agree bullet, Blade makes the game very enjoyable for me too.

[LoneStarGirl]

I voted no. Blade and Bek are the reason GE doesn't play anymore. I believe they are the same person cuz they play from the same IP address. Hoops and I have had many discussions about this

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

I voted "NO" and I think anyone who is aware of the history of the two of you playing together would vote the same way. A lot of this information has been kept quiet, but the fact that the two of you post from the same IP address, acted with information that should have been private for the other person, and actually cross-posted in Bek's game are all significant data points for someone trying to make a decision. Each of these was left out of the argument you listed.

The bolded sections from my earlier post indicate that I think this is more than a one-time issue.

Earlier I quoted the game where it is indisputable that Blade posted as Bek. Anyone who wants to read through the posts as that game evolves will clearly see that Blade was posting under the Bek account far earlier than the slip-up.

I'll leave it up to Blade to decide if he wants me to bring up more issues from past games. If he still wants to participate with Bek, while publicly making it seem like he is being unfairly persecuted, then I'll continue on this course. If not, then I don't see a compelling reason to dredge up stuff that hasn't taken place in months. I like playing werewolf with Blade, but I like playing werewolf on a level playing field more than any one person (or two people).

[LoneStarGirl]

GE and I never talk about the game until we are both dead. And I dont have a problem with either Blade or Bek playing, but not both. And I never went to Barkeep about this, but I should have, I went to hoops instead because we had talked about it on AIM after Blade knew things that only Bek could after a game way back in the day.

But I love Rome and I am excited to get this game started, so lets get this over with and start asap Cronin

[Lorena]

WW politics... luv it

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by Dodgerchick

Blade takes this game too seriously, I think, to cheat like that.

I have no idea about what Blade has done in the past, but I disagree with this statement. Most of the cheaters I have come across in similar play-for-fun type games as this (such as online leagues or other multiplayer games) have done so precisely BECAUSE they take winning way too seriously and are willing to lie, cheat, and steal in order to win.

[Antmeister]

Are Blade and Bek married? How are they posting from the same IP address? Unless close friend is code for passionate lovers.

[Lorena]

Originally Posted by KWhit

I have no idea about what Blade has done in the past, but I disagree with this statement. Most of the cheaters I have come across in similar play-for-fun type games as this (such as online leagues or other multiplayer games) have done so precisely BECAUSE they take winning way too seriously and are willing to lie, cheat, and steal in order to win.

I can see where you're coming from but from the conversations blade and I have had he could have easily disclosed information to me but didn't.

I'll stop here and wait to see what blade says, but ya'll know how I feel.

[Lorena]

Originally Posted by Antmeister

Are Blade and Bek married? How are they posting from the same IP address? Unless close friend is code for passionate lovers.

Apparently bek is Blade's split personality that shows up only in WW games.

Okay, I should stop now I don't wanna get lynched on my first day.

[Antmeister]

By the way, I voted yes. From what I know of Blade, I know he could be overly emotional and that is why I would like for him to play. Although I think it is a little strange that two friends are posting from the same computer, it is not really a stretch unless it is happening on a consistent basis.

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by Dodgerchick

Apparently bek is Blade's split personality that shows up only in WW games.

Okay, I should stop now I don't wanna get lynched on my first day.

You say it as a joke. I don't think it's a joke. I really enjoy playing with Blade as well. One only need look at how well he played in Alan's game to see that his intuitive play is entertaining and good for the game. However, there has been, on more than one occasion, evidence suggesting that at the bare minimum Blade and Bek are working off the same page. It would be one thing if their IPs occasionally matched. However, there have been games where Bek has ONLY been on when Blade has been on. There is other, more circumstantial evidence, but I am going to have to go find it as I don't want to unfairly throw stuff out against Blade, liking him as I do. I think hoops has other firm facts and would encourage him to post them at this point just so we're all working from the same page and people understand, even if they disagree, where this is coming from.

[Blade6119]

I have never cheated, but the fact people believe i would, or even that bek and i are the same person, is insulting. There have already been more then the pre-set # i gave myself about withdrawing, so i will simply say have a good day everyone.

[Lorena]

Aha... played out just like I thought.

It's okay because even though the Blade character is gone, we still have bek which is the same person... no big loss right?

[st.cronin]

I don't really have an opinion on all this, I remember the incident that hoops mentioned, and I remember hearing that Blade and bek had agreed not to play in the same game for a while.

Anyway, for the Rome game, Blade is out (per his request) and bek is in, until I hear otherwise.

[LoneStarGirl]

Originally Posted by Dodgerchick

Aha... played out just like I thought.

It's okay because even though the Blade character is gone, we still have bek which is the same person... no big loss right?

Nobody minds Blade playing the game DC. I dont think anybody has a problem with Blade playing cuz he is a good player. We mind that Blade plays as two seperate people.

[st.cronin]

Bek has not been online since he signed up, so I've pulled his name (for now) as well.

[Poli]

Originally Posted by KWhit

I was unaware of any of this, so more information is helpful. If there's still more to the story, now's probably the time to get it out there.

+1, with the exception of I knew of their friendship, but wasn't aware of everything else.

[hoopsguy]

While I understand there is an "enquiring minds want to know" sentiment on this topic, I don't have any overwhelming urge to try and take shots at Blade (or Bek). My point was that he is not a victim in all of this, as his original post in this thread indicated.

Blade has withdrawn from the game. The issue causing the PM that spawned this thread is no longer in play. The character of the players have now been publicly called into question. What it the upside of continuing down this path by giving more detailed information at this point? I only see it further polarizing people, which I would like to avoid as much as possible.

[Lorena]

I'm glad Ant has been exposed to WW and hope that he takes this drama and makes use of it

[Barkeep49]

I agree with hoops. I'm really sorry that this had to be done so publicly as I really do like playing with Blade. I'm going to lock the thread.

~Barkeep49, Your Friendly Werewolf Moderator

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

I was the one who brought the concern to Blade and Bek. This was after 3 players said something about it to me. Blade has always been an instinctive player, and a very good one at that. However as hoops has alluded to even beyond the first small game, there had been reason to suspect at the minimum that Blade and Bek succumbed to the very human instinct amongst friends to talk about the game. I know that Lathum and saldana sometimes avoid talking to each other at all during games just to make sure they don't inadvertently say something about WW they shouldn't.

In many ways I'm glad to see that the poll is so slanted towards Blade and am happy to see this be a community decision.

At a minimum Bek is back. I think it's far more likely that our new friend Lax is Blade. When Bek reappeared signing up for the game last night, I deleted the posts hoping it would go away. Bek contacted me and after some discussion I told him to create a new name, in hopes that the return would be discreet. The return has been anything but discreet.

I would have liked to have seen an actual apology and an acceptance that cheating occurred. What I got was a tacit admission, hardly the remorse that this situation deserves. Much to my own disappointment our community didn't see this originally for the travesty that it was. And as a result I wimped out and posted the above, trying to mitigate it in someway by not doing my moderator routine. This in no way reflected my opinion at the time. I sincerely regret making that post. What Blade did deserved stronger condemnation from me than it received.

That said we're 14 months past. People deserve second chances, just as our game deserves integrity and honesty. If you don't want to let Lax/Blade play in your games, fine. I don't blame you. Why have the specter of cheating hanging over it? If you believe that people deserve second chances? Well that's the side I came down on. No more than one of the Blade/Bek/Lax trio should play in an a game, but one of them certainly can if the GM is alright with it. I hope that my faith in the goodness of the people who want to play this game, even if it has failed in the past, will be rewarded now.

~Barkeep49, Your Friendly Werewolf Moderator

[Lathum]

I think they are all the same person and will make my game descions accordingly

[oliegirl]

I wasn't playing WW when the Bek/Blade drama happened, but I will definitely be cautious of our new member Lax. Not going to go so far as to say I don't think he should play, but will definitely have my guard up.

[bulletsponge]

if Schmidty and Mrs Schmidty can play together....

[KWhit]

The whole Bek/Blade thing (and another unrelated incident) drove me out of the ww games and the community. Blade by himself was infuriating enough with his rants, arguments, and insults every game, but the cheating was the end of my ever playing a game with him again.

I feel very strongly about this and do not think he should be allowed back. If he is - in any of his 3 (or more) guises - I will not be playing in any game that he is allowed into.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by KWhit

The whole Bek/Blade thing (and another unrelated incident) drove me out of the ww games and the community. Blade by himself was infuriating enough with his rants, arguments, and insults every game, but the cheating was the end of my ever playing a game with him again.

I feel very strongly about this and do not think he should be allowed back. If he is - in any of his 3 (or more) guises - I will not be playing in any game that he is allowed into.

I am glad KWhit bought this up.

I didn't wasnt to crap all over AlanT's game but the more I think about it the more I agree with this sentiment.

I have had this discussion with other people in the past day about this. Alot of us put alot of effort into these games and even if the potential for cheating is/ was there that is enough to make it less fun.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by bulletsponge

if Schmidty and Mrs Schmidty can play together....

I couldn't disagree more.

Schmidty and Mrs. Schmidty haven't shown and patters of cheating. Blade/ Bek ware caught red handed. And Blade has never shown any attempt at an apology, even going so far as attempting to make himself a victim.

there are a number of people who have real world relationships that play together and they have never had any issues at all.

I remember one weekend Saldana and his wife came to visit me and Mollymurphy and Me, Saldana and MollyMurphy were all playing and there was never a problem.

I think people who know each other should absolutly be encouraged to play in the same game until there is a reason to not allow it, Blade/Bek gave us a reason

[oliegirl]

Originally Posted by bulletsponge

if Schmidty and Mrs Schmidty can play together....

Are you serious with this comment?

[path12]

I'm willing to give a second chance. But I totally understand the feelings of those who aren't.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I couldn't disagree more.

Schmidty and Mrs. Schmidty haven't shown and patters of cheating. Blade/ Bek ware caught red handed. And Blade has never shown any attempt at an apology, even going so far as attempting to make himself a victim.

there are a number of people who have real world relationships that play together and they have never had any issues at all.

I remember one weekend Saldana and his wife came to visit me and Mollymurphy and Me, Saldana and MollyMurphy were all playing and there was never a problem.

I think people who know each other should absolutly be encouraged to play in the same game until there is a reason to not allow it, Blade/Bek gave us a reason

I agree with the wolfy one here. It's completely different. I suspect that a lot of people still don't get the whole Bek/Blade thing and think it's just two friends who maybe talked a little bit too much about the game outside of the game thread. That's not my understanding of the situation.

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I couldn't disagree more.

Schmidty and Mrs. Schmidty haven't shown and patterns of cheating. Blade/ Bek ware caught red handed. And Blade has never shown any attempt at an apology, even going so far as attempting to make himself a victim.

there are a number of people who have real world relationships that play together and they have never had any issues at all.

I remember one weekend Saldana and his wife came to visit me and Mollymurphy and Me, Saldana and MollyMurphy were all playing and there was never a problem.

I think people who know each other should absolutly be encouraged to play in the same game until there is a reason to not allow it, Blade/Bek gave us a reason

I agree with this post entirely, especially the part above that I bolded.

I enjoyed playing the game with Blade, as he was a guy who put thought into the game and was always willing to take part in the conversation. In my opinion, you can't get enough of those types of players. However, when the integrity of the game is compromised it is going to push people away - KWhit has already said that this was the case with him. I'm just glad he came back as I enjoy having him in our communicty. There isn't a person in the game who is more important than the group, especially with the good vibe that we have had going for the last year or so.

There are others who no longer play the game (I know of at least two) that had similar concerns to the ones KWhit mentioned. The method that Blade came back under - posting under Bek again, then going with a new handle when he met with resistance - is also disappointing. It gives me the impression that he still doesn't understand that what he did was wrong. This poll already told me that he didn't get it last year.

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by KWhit

I agree with the wolfy one here. It's completely different. I suspect that a lot of people still don't get the whole Bek/Blade thing and think it's just two friends who maybe talked a little bit too much about the game outside of the game thread. That's not my understanding of the situation.

That is indeed not the situation as I understand it. There is just far too much evidence to suggest anything but Blade also playing under the account of Bek. We're not talking friends collobarating here, we're talking one player playing multiple accounts.

~BK, YFWWM