Apartment Issues/Questions - Legal

[hollmt]

Looking for some advice/opinions from the smarties here.

I moved into a new apartment while my GF and I are separated on 08.21.15. This apartment has bought all of the phone lines for the WWW as well as has a tight hold on the cable lines for TV. You can get other cable however, they have roughly a 3 page document stating all of the stuff the cable company cannot do that might interfere with their lines they own, causing most companies not to even bother to install, meaning that in the end, you get your cable and www through the apartment, which upon request of you wanting their service, they throw it on your monthly bill for rent. Ok, easy enough, right?

Wrong.

My cable bill just for TV is $115. 85 for the tier I am on, 10 for HD and 20 for the box. WWW is just $35. I finally after much research decided to cut the cable and purchased Netflix, Prime, Hulu, Sling TV and got a TiVO as well as an HD antenna for local HD channels. I tested it all out for a week (the trial memberships) and loved it and decided to cut the cord. Hooray for me. $60/per month for all of that.

08.29 I went to the office to advise that I would like to remove cable as I don't need it. I was advised then that I would have to fill out a form as well as give a valid reason as to why and Corporate would review it and decide if they would remove it. If they don't, they state that I would be responsible for this charge for the remainder of my lease.

This seems all sorts of shady. They didn't have to get corporate approval for me to want cable and internet. But they do when I want to remove it. They are stating that any charged assessments (cable, www, pet fees, washer/dryer rental) are all added into the full lease agreement now and I am responsible for them. Again, to me this seems shady and that they are circumventing something here. The Apt Manager directed me to #40 on the lease which states:

"LEASE BINDING: The covenants conditions and agreements contained in this Lease shall bind and inure to the benefit of Landlord and Tenant and their respective heirs, distributors, executors, administrators, successors, and except as otherwise provided in this Lease, their assigns."

So they have a page included with my lease for Charged Assessment Details, which has Rent, Cable breakdown, WWW breakdown, Washer and Dryer Rental, and monthly concession for my overall total and I think they are attempting to include those additional services as now part of my lease. I think this is all sorts of wrong. At no time did they state that by me asking for cable or washer and dryer for that matter was I now signing and accepting a contractual service for the entirety of my lease agreement. They act as their own cable/www provider in essence and as such, they should make those points perfectly clear. Not to mention that they monopolize the services which seems illegal as well.

I also have issues with my upstairs neighbor who is extremely loud for long periods of time. I have complained now 5 times in 5 weeks about this and have provided audio proof of different times. Nothing has changed in regards to his noise and I have pointed this out to them and stated in the lease there responsibility to uphold peace and quiet. It states:

"Nothing shall be done in or about the building which will interfere with the rights, comforts, or convenience of other Tenants. No musical instruments, radios, televisions, or phonographs shall be operated in a manner that is disturbing or annoying to other Tenants, nor shall any disturbing noises be made at any time."

I have provided audio proof of extremely loud banging, stomping, slamming and other noises that happen for hours on end and they are dismissed as footsteps, but they state they will discuss it with the neighbor.

So, I am at a loss here. What do I do about the cable issue? Is this legal? Can I fight it? Has anyone ever heard of anything like this? What can I do about the upstairs neighbor if he continues to be loud? Can I legally break my lease because the management is not doing their job in regards to making him be quiet? I do know I have a right to peaceful living. I also know I live in an apartment and not everything will be quiet. I am not naïve.

Sorry for the very long post. Advice?

[dzilla77]

Have you put your complaints in writing? If not, that is the first step (and quite possibly could get some action, as now its documented.)

Not sure about the cable - was that part of the lease document or an addendum to it? If so, you might be stuck. But if you haven't filled out the form and made the request, nothing is going to happen, so you might as well do that and see what happens.

[dubb93]

The problem with the stomping is that it likely is just footsteps. It's an extremely common complaint and is likely much more likely to do with the construction of the apartment than the guy upstairs being a douche. Hell, he could be doing anything up there.

Best advice I could give you about apartment complexes is that if you don't know someone that has lived there in the past always ask for the top floor.

Last time I lived in an apartment complex I had a neighbor politely complain to me about noise when I would play with my cat. What do you do there? Can I not play with my cat?

This is one of the reasons why I hate apartment complexes. They generally construct them as cheaply as possible and you always seem to have conflict between downstairs residents and upstairs residents.

[albionmoonlight]

What state are you in?

[hollmt]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

What state are you in?

I am in Indiana.

Yes I have put my complaints in writing. I have actually started to document every instance of the upstairs neighbor and the noise. I cant help but be a little nosey and I 'think' he has 2 kids or possibly grandkids that visit from time to time too and they play like kids do and roughhouse and throw things. Trust me on this. It is not just footsteps. It is things being thrown loudly on the floor, patio doors being slammed shut instead of just closed, cabinets and drawers same thing. I can deal with the walking and I hear it too. And you are correct about the top floor thing being the preferred floor and it normally is my request, but they only had 2 left of this style apartment and one was on 2nd and one on 1st. Again though, I have audio of the noises and it is obvious that it is not just footsteps. Footsteps don't make my ceiling jar It is the apartment managements responsibility to ensure that their tenants have a peaceful and quiet living environment and the bottom line is that my perception of what I am hearing is my reality. It is beyond annoying being woken up at 530 every morning because he cant keep from slamming and banging things.

Now, about the cable issue. It is not part of the lease agreement. #40 in the Lease though is what they are referencing(it is in the first post). I believe what they are doing is on the additional Charged Assessments is after the fact of you choosing their cable/internet (again by the way, you can ONLY choose theirs as mentioned in my first post, they own the phone lines and make it highly impossible to get any other cable in here) they then add this to the lease monthly payment. So, what I think is going on (I am no professional at all) is once you choose these services they somehow circumvent something and add those charges to the lease locking you unknowingly into a pseudo contract on cable/www/washer/dryer rental.

At no time at all was I informed that my choice to get cable/www was locking me into not being able to remove it if I again...chose to. I would completely understand if the apartment had cable/www included in the rent already standard and I was trying to get out of it, but this isn't the case. I was asked if I wanted it, and advised I really had no choice because no other service was available, so I said ok. I thought it was a convenient service and one less real bill. I didn't know it was a sneaky way to get me into a contract.

**Oh and yes, I have filled the cable removal request form and Corporate has it and is 'reviewing' it at their leisure. Meaning I am paying for a service I do not need while they review it**

[albionmoonlight]

Contact a local law school to see if they have a clinic who might be willing to help. Also contact the Indiana Attorney General and register a complaint: Attorney General: Home

I cannot give legal advice, but those are two general tips that should help you. The lease thing seems pretty shady to me, but landlord/tenant law is so state specific that you will really need to talk to someone local to find out.

[hollmt]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

Contact a local law school to see if they have a clinic who might be willing to help. Also contact the Indiana Attorney General and register a complaint: Attorney General: Home

I cannot give legal advice, but those are two general tips that should help you. The lease thing seems pretty shady to me, but landlord/tenant law is so state specific that you will really need to talk to someone local to find out.

Great advice. If need be I will definitely do that. I obviously think it is a bit shady as well. Thanks for the information and link.

[hollmt]

Also just curious if this is borderline violation against FCC rules? Again, I am not up to speed on the rules, but from my very basic understanding of it Apartments, communities, etc, cannot force you to get one particular cable service correct? So this apartment is actually forcing me to get one internet service through them and only them and also pretty much forcing me (without outright saying so) to get their cable if I want cable, which happens to be through Dish Network. They just make it highly impossible to get any other cable because of their strict wiring rules.

Thoughts on this? Anyone much more familiar with the FCC in regards to cable and internet?

[dubb93]

I don't understand why another service couldn't just come in and use the same lines? When I switch from Uverse to Comcast they run a different line from the road, but they all use the same lines in the walls/house/apartment.

[hollmt]

Originally Posted by dubb93

I don't understand why another service couldn't just come in and use the same lines? When I switch from Uverse to Comcast they run a different line from the road, but they all use the same lines in the walls/house/apartment.

I don't understand either. I was actually told by the Apt when I moved in, that you 'can try' to get other cable if you want but our rules pretty much keep anyone else from wiring anything else in the building or installing anything that might interfere. That is why I am asking if this violates something in the FCC. I am sure it does but they are getting away with it because they sort of allow it if and only if it doesn't interfere with their stuff. Again, shady. Either way...I will go down that road when/if Corporate denies my cable removal.

[PilotMan]

Here's a pretty interesting article from a few years ago about apartment communities requiring cable services from them. It seems to have some good, relevant information in there.

Apartment Complex Owner Makes Cable Service Mandatory In 13 States: “We’ll Add the $40 to Your Rent”

Unfortunately for residents, short of moving, there is no escaping these fees. Some residents have contacted their member of Congress or the FCC to complain about the loophole that allows a complex owner to charge for cable service residents don’t always want. Another way to send a message is to tell Mid America you will not do business with them until they make the CableSaver program truly optional. If the company stands to lose more money than it receives from cable company kickbacks, it may choose to amend its policies.

[hollmt]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Here's a pretty interesting article from a few years ago about apartment communities requiring cable services from them. It seems to have some good, relevant information in there.

Apartment Complex Owner Makes Cable Service Mandatory In 13 States: “We’ll Add the $40 to Your Rent”

Yeah, I have seen this article or a similar one. The difference I see though from this and my case, is that Apt made you pay it no matter what from the start and it was sort of built into your lease that way from the start. Although similar, my case is not that it was built in but offered to me as an additional service IF I wanted cable.

Very similar situations though. I am sure that they budget/plan for issues where residents don't want their cable and bump up the rent just a bit all around to cover that cost.

I should have smelled something fishy from the start when they told me I had no choice in WWW and really had no choice in cable but theirs due to all of the restrictions. I got suckered though I think, like many others, in the 'DEAL' of having all the services rolled into my rent for one easy bill, not knowing it was possibly locking me in for the duration of the lease.

Keep in mind though...this little trick my complex is doing, is also for the WWW (which is ONLY through them no matter what) as well as a monthly washer and dryer rental. So if I bought my own washer and dryer next month or decided to just use the washers and dryers down the street...tough shit for me. I still would have to pay the monthly washer and dryer rental. If I decided I didn't want the WWW at all anymore, again tough shit for me it seems.

That isn't right. It is unethical and bad business. It is taking the choice out of my hands if I decide I cannot afford internet/cable anymore and need to cut back on some things. It shouldn't be rolled up into my lease.

[britrock88]

You'll notice that the lawyers around here will keep things general, being lawyers. We're often out-of-state or stuck in other positions that don't allow us to provide specific advice.

But an essential principle of contracts is that when you sign one, you agree to what's on it. If changes in circumstances occur after the fact, they ordinarily will not automatically attach to the initial contract--you would typically need to authorize an amendment.

That said, I'd second albion's advice. Get some location-specific and subject-specific advice from the folks who can give it to you. Good luck!

[hollmt]

Originally Posted by britrock88

You'll notice that the lawyers around here will keep things general, being lawyers. We're often out-of-state or stuck in other positions that don't allow us to provide specific advice.

But an essential principle of contracts is that when you sign one, you agree to what's on it. If changes in circumstances occur after the fact, they ordinarily will not automatically attach to the initial contract--you would typically need to authorize an amendment.

That said, I'd second albion's advice. Get some location-specific and subject-specific advice from the folks who can give it to you. Good luck!

Oh, you guys have been more than helpful. I have read some of the other legal topics on here and noticed that the lawyers who frequent here cannot give out specific advice but only offer general and that is fine and more than enough.

It is often good enough just to vent, and read others opinions and see if something sparks a thought or different perspective because you know, I am biased to my point of view.

I am going to take Albion's advice though if needed. I think it is warranted and something that can be argued/fought if I have to go that route.

[dubb93]

What is your out on the contract? I live in Indiana and I've rented into two apartment complexes in my day and the fee to break the contract was a single months rent. If everything else fails you should check into that. I won't sign a lease on an apartment complex that has a fee bigger than that for breaking it early.

[hollmt]

Originally Posted by dubb93

What is your out on the contract? I live in Indiana and I've rented into two apartment complexes in my day and the fee to break the contract was a single months rent. If everything else fails you should check into that. I won't sign a lease on an apartment complex that has a fee bigger than that for breaking it early.

The fee to break offhand w/o the contract in front me is I believe $5000. They justify that for being a newer complex blah blah blah but state that might go down over time....when that is, I don't know. You can also get out of the lease by finding a person to take over the lease for you as a pseudo sublet pending approval etc. etc.

I do have an update on the cable removal and this is it exactly w/o names and apt info:

XXXX,

Thank you for your patience and understand on resolving your request for dropping, it has been greatly appreciated. I have received an answer to your written request for the adjustment of your cable. At this time we will not be able to remove all cost of cable but we do have the ability to down grade to our least expensive programming. The total cost in savings will be $63.00 a month. Which will bring your current cable charges from $115.00 to $52.00 a month. A addendum lease will need to be signed to reflect the new rate. Looking forward to scheduling the addendum signing and hearing from you.

XXXXX
Office Name and Address.

So, they are willing and able to lower the cost down to the lowest barebones package but not remove it completely.

So, it looks like unless I try to fight this further, I am stuck. I do not understand this still though and think they are utilizing a loophole somewhere. I also don't understand why they are willing to downgrade but not remove completely. I think they think they are doing me a favor here.

So...I still think it is worth fighting. Agree or disagree?

[CU Tiger]

Not a lawyer and know nothing about Indiana.

I do however own rental properties (including a small apartment complex) and have some general knowledge of rental laws and a few interesting perspectives or thoughts.

The internet may actually be more of an issue than the TV. In SC internet is classified as a utility now, is Indiana? If so the apartment complex is acting as a utility this can be a big no-no.
(For example when I bought my apartment building it wasn't sub metered by the power company. The apartment complex got 1 bill, they installed meters and billed the tenants for power.That came up during due diligence and was a strong negotiating point as they were subject to major costs if they kept the building. We wanted an upfit budget to, among other things, install separate utility meters FWIW)

Next you mentioned it was through Dish network. I'd make sure Dish knew that they were a commercial customer. I used to be a Dish dealer. Subletting Dish service required a very specific separate account type. If they are doing this wrong that could be a major issue for them. (many bars and restaurants dont have commercial accounts they "add a box at home" and have a side person add the dish at the rest and...well you can figure out the rest. Dish has the power to bring the wrath of satan himself down on folks for this. Directv would just shrug and kill the account. Dish would get N-A-S-T-Y.)

All else fails be the squeaky wheel. IF they are required to provide servcie its required to work. Call them and complain about "picture quality" frequently. Like multiple times a week. If they cant fix it then they may be in violation of their own lease and charging you for a service they arent delivering. The access cards can be rendered blank in a microwave or through magnetic inductance. Necessitating a card replacement. There are all kinds of things you can do to be a thorn in their side.

[hollmt]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

Not a lawyer and know nothing about Indiana.

I do however own rental properties (including a small apartment complex) and have some general knowledge of rental laws and a few interesting perspectives or thoughts.

The internet may actually be more of an issue than the TV. In SC internet is classified as a utility now, is Indiana? If so the apartment complex is acting as a utility this can be a big no-no.
(For example when I bought my apartment building it wasn't sub metered by the power company. The apartment complex got 1 bill, they installed meters and billed the tenants for power.That came up during due diligence and was a strong negotiating point as they were subject to major costs if they kept the building. We wanted an upfit budget to, among other things, install separate utility meters FWIW)

Next you mentioned it was through Dish network. I'd make sure Dish knew that they were a commercial customer. I used to be a Dish dealer. Subletting Dish service required a very specific separate account type. If they are doing this wrong that could be a major issue for them. (many bars and restaurants dont have commercial accounts they "add a box at home" and have a side person add the dish at the rest and...well you can figure out the rest. Dish has the power to bring the wrath of satan himself down on folks for this. Directv would just shrug and kill the account. Dish would get N-A-S-T-Y.)

All else fails be the squeaky wheel. IF they are required to provide servcie its required to work. Call them and complain about "picture quality" frequently. Like multiple times a week. If they cant fix it then they may be in violation of their own lease and charging you for a service they arent delivering. The access cards can be rendered blank in a microwave or through magnetic inductance. Necessitating a card replacement. There are all kinds of things you can do to be a thorn in their side.

Hey. When I moved in they offered the cable and internet services to me. I had ATT U-Verse and they clearly told me that if I wanted internet, I HAD to get it through them as they have bought all the lines. No ifs ands or buts about. They were the only option for internet. So, yes, I feel they are acting as their own Internet Provider in this regard. I do not know if the Internet is classified as a utility in Indiana. I will have to check on that. I did find this to start with IURC: Communications Services Division.

In regards to the cable, it is through DISH, yes. I was provided a box and remote through the Apartment Complex. You are saying I should contact DISH and let them know that the Apartment Complex is a commercial customer? The complex again makes it clear that it is nigh impossible to get other cable from anyone else due to their restrictions.

In regards to your last paragraph. The apartment complex is required to provide service for any problems at all. Again, that reeks of them acting like their own cable and internet company.

I like your vindictive thoughts , but I probably won't go that far. My luck, it will come back on me. I would really, in all honestly, like to fight this as not being legal at all and just end up being able to get out of the lease. My internet does seem to just randomly drop though at different times for a few minutes. I could play that card.