Maximum Football???

[Godzilla Blitz]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

Bill's very cool about it. I wanted to make sure I had permission, because I intened to publish it right on the front page. If you were to give him a heads-up about it via e-mail, he may even come over and enjoy our nice little thread on the subject.

I just added a link to your page, since it's easy to find there.

I wonder if the "small football game that isn't a text-sim" he mentions in his article is the current subject of our discussion here?

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by Godzilla Blitz

I just added a link to your page, since it's easy to find there.

I wonder if the "small football game that isn't a text-sim" he mentions in his article is the current subject of our discussion here?

Wouldn't surprise me. He's not likely to call him out by name. But I know Harris pays attention to what's going on over at Matrix...

[Dutch]

That is a fantastic article by Bill Harris. I'm going to put his blog in my favorites when i get home. Thanks for the link.

[sabotai]

Great article (and bookmarked the blog)

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by sabotai

Great article (and bookmarked the blog)

It's the first one for me in a new folder called "Blogs". I know, I'm a fairly creative guy.

[hoosierdude]

Originally Posted by Godzilla Blitz

I just added a link to your page, since it's easy to find there.

I wonder if the "small football game that isn't a text-sim" he mentions in his article is the current subject of our discussion here?

After watching from the sidelines, and reading up on the many issues the game had from both the publisher and programmer, he felt something should be mentioned.

He and I discussed this in emails, and I thought it deserved just as close a look as he does on EA Sports. Bill didn't want to single out what he thought was a single programmer. We agreed to disagree about making the publisher and the programmer receive the full treatment for what was a really bad release and what looks to be a really disorganized programmed game.

I believe that the game should have a demo, if you only have the choice to buy and no demo, and if you don't like it, there is no refunds, then the company should offer a demo to show good faith in their product, bringing the testing availability of so many more people to make it a better game.

There are a few of us out here that thinks that the no demo with no refunds for dissatisfaction is a poor choicel. I know he thought it was an interesting choice by Matrix and Mr. Winter.

Maybe Bill didn't feel comfortable naming names. Too bad too. Wouldn't hurt to have these kind of practices have the spotlight on them for what is considered unprofessional and very bad customer service.

If you aren't going to give refunds after the initial release (March 31st) then you need that demo. Name any other sports sim company that would offer no refunds for a buggy release with no demo and see how long they stay online. The fans would tear them a new one, and rightfully so. .400 earned a lot of bruises and bumps for a few mistakes, and Matrix should get the same treatment IMO.

At least .400 attempted to fix the issues in for the most part, a timely manner, and tried to work with the customer base by having a demo for those that weren't sure about the game. You can't say that about Matrix.


Of course, YMMV.

TC

[DaddyTorgo]

just read Bill Harris' piece, and I would think that FOF deserves a mention there in Tier 2 along with GDS. FOF certainly as a game and GDS as a studio. can someone get on him to correct that! where's the LOVE man!

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

just read Bill Harris' piece, and I would think that FOF deserves a mention there in Tier 2 along with GDS. FOF certainly as a game and GDS as a studio. can someone get on him to correct that! where's the LOVE man!

EDIT: Nevermind, I read this wrong.

And for my opinion, I would agree with FOF but not GDS. At least not yet. But I think he mentions Puresim, OOTP and EHM as Tier 2 because they all have a publisher with some muscle behind it while everyone else is still doing it themselves.

[MJ4H]

He seems to consider FOF a "spreadsheet game" (which I mostly agree with).

[astrosfan64]

We should create a thread to discuss Bill's article. Bill's article / blog is too good to taint it by discussing it in the Max Football Thread.

[spcd]

Originally Posted by Antmeister71

This is why I start to have mixed feelings for Matrix games. They had a team of people, including Erik, that tested out this game. Anyone, with even a basic knowledge of football, would have noticed the glaring flaws in the game and it seems to me they just ignored it. Sorry if you don't feel this way, but it seems to me that they just wanted the product to get out the door ASAP before more interest starting waning due to their delayed release dates.

IIRC, the first post I made here expressed that Matrix released many games in states similar, or worse than MF. I don't buy Erik's innocent "oh we missed the bugs" routine, especially given the unprofessional and hectic multiple builds. Not looking closely, not making an effort to improve the process, not having competent testers, and having a history of releasing unstable games should have led them to expect what they got. It seemed to come as a complete surprise to everyone.....except most of the people who posted in this thread.

It's continued with the patches, I quoted Winter as saying he didn't see a bug, but the changes were added that day. Doesn't suggest that any sort of reliable testing has been going on, pre or post release.

FWIW, Paradox retains NDA post release, for new testers as well as old. IMHO, it's a way to ensure minimal embarrasement, such as a tester revealing what bugs were known, what couldn't be fixed, disputes, arguements etc.

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by astrosfan64

We should create a thread to discuss Bill's article. Bill's article / blog is too good to taint it by discussing it in the Max Football Thread.

I created that thread a week ago...

http://www.digitalstadium.org/smf/index.php?topic=206.0

Wouldn't kill anyone to talk over there, ya know...

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

I created that thread a week ago...

http://www.digitalstadium.org/smf/index.php?topic=206.0

Wouldn't kill anyone to talk over there, ya know...

And Bill Harris wrote that blog a while back too but I didn't notice till I got here, now did I?

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by Dutch

And Bill Harris wrote that blog a while back too but I didn't notice till I got here, now did I?

Yeah, I know... and I'm not trying to be a crybaby about the forum or anything, but we've done a lot of work over there to get lots of gaming and sports news published as soon as it's available. I think there's a ton of value in reading over there, and I'm just trying to encourage people to give it a shot.

[Bee]

I knew something was missing from this thread....Franklin pimping his site! Thanks Franklin!

[Bee]

There is nothing unusual, bizarre or nefarious about this. To think otherwise frankly displays a lack of knowledge and perspective on how games are created and supported. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised at this reaction, but I am. I'm not usually as strong in my responses, but I really find the posts I read on this at FOFC remarkably ill-informed about computer game development and support in general.

What I find very amusing about this post is someone involved with the release of the steaming pile of crap also known as Maximum Football would call others out on their lack of knowledge of game creation and development.

[Antmeister]

Here is a great post by TC Dale over at the Matrix boards:

About your process in testing, most of the companies I have tested for requires an NDA for working on any project. It is true for pre and post-release that the NDA still is in effect... usually at least 2 years after release, if not more. New testers usually have to sign as Matrix's does. That isn't the issue.

I have to call BS here, since there are quite a few people that post and visit FOFC on a regular basis that I consider very intelligent about computer game development, and game support, including testing.

There must be at last count probably every sports sim programmer stopping in and making announcements, and helping out with questions about their game. OOTP, FM, FOF, TCB, FBCB, BBCF, EHM, TPB, TPG, along with your own Shaun Sullivan's PureSim Baseball and a few other indy programmers of which I consider myself. If this isn't a representative cross-section of the genre, then I don't know what you would consider it.

They might be too harsh for their good, but, if I wanted legitimate, fanboy-less reviews and critiques on a game process, I would have to include them. Excellent, intelligent posters, sometimes they are a bit over the top, but if something is bad, they usually call it immediately. There is no hand-holding, no free passes. Either you got it right, or you didn't.

Ill-informed? Not hardly.

You want the game tested properly, I would offer at LEAST 3 testing spots to FOFC'ers to get the truth about your testing process, and Maximum Football. I would test it myself if I had the time. I believe there are many issues still that need to be resolved, and you need people that can say this is BS and not be yes men. You want the game to be as good as you want it to be, then offer your "believed enemies" a chance to put up or shut up. To do so would go far in showing you are serious about making the game legitimately bug free and playable in future releases.

If you want MF to be tested so that post releases are less bug free and working as it should, then you need to offer the guys at FOFC a chance to give you TRUE feedback, with proven testers and TRUE fans of the genre, as right now it doesn't look like there is many that understand American Pro Football and Indoor Pro Football very well, be it rules or gameplay.

Let your biggest market share give you the chance to make the game better. Wouldn't it be nice to have GOOD word of mouth about MF? Offer the olive branch and let your biggest detractors put their testing where their mouth is. To do otherwise is not in your best interests.


Your market isn't the war gaming fans. It is the sports fans, the sport sim fanatics, that want a choice from console button pushing drivel. Make it happen. It is the guys that never post in threads, but READ all about your public statements and actions here and other places. Word of mouth is a wonderful thing, or a real witch to deal with when it isn't so good.... You can do so much more with testers that have proven themselves over a whole genre of games, not just football or sports sims.

If you want, I bet the FOFC guys could get you a list of qualified testers within 24 hours. So, the ball is in your court so to speak.



Good Luck.

_____________________________

TC Dale
SCR Programmer

[dawgfan]

Excellent post. For Erik and Matrix to take the position that we are the enemy is ridiculous and poor business - we offer a significant potential cross-section of the market that Maximum Football would like to have, and for them to assume that we are trashing their game just for sport and without good reason is self-delusional.

As pointed out by TC, beta testers from FOFC would likely provide some of the best, most helpful feedback untainted by fanboyism.

[shaggyra]

RE: Test Post-release Maximum-Football? - 4/13/2006 7:54:17 PM

Shaggyra Matrix Hero Posts: 311 Joined: 2/10/2006 Status: online

There are many at the FOFC forum that are very knowledgeable about football and computers in general. There would be many that could be good candidates for testing. If it were up to me, I think Antmeister71 could very helpful. That said, they would have to sign and abide by the NDA just as the rest of us taking part in the testing. Anybody would have to understand his/her "place" in the project. The testers help in finding the problems. David has created the game and is making the fixes/improvements. Matrix is publishing it. Any decisions on gameplay, etc. would be between David and Matrix. The testers might not agree or like the decisions, but it is not "our" game. One fear is that someone would join, and pound David for this or that, not get their way and then go crying over the boards (both places) spewing discontent and hatred. For many that may be there only purpose. The idea of offering the "FOFCers" so they could impart there vast knowledge if offensive. Why not offer 3 or more spots to those people at EA sports boards? Why stop there? And when did the FOFCers become so powerful that they can complain about this game which they do not have or want? What is the purpose? Just to hear (read) themselves talk? Somekind of self-importance/self-esteem problem? OK, whatever, I'll shut up about this now. It's the last I have to say.

One last thing......get a life or grow up or something

[DaddyTorgo]

tick tock tick tock

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

As pointed out by TC, beta testers from FOFC would likely provide some of the best, most helpful feedback untainted by fanboyism.

In general, yes, but I don't see many people here getting involved with this lost cause.

[SirFozzie]

Hmm.. Someone's got a case of the mondays...

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by shaggyra

One last thing......get a life or grow up or something

Take your own advice.

Who here has suggested that we would be immune to NDA's if any of us were to take part in testing? This is a ridiculous strawman argument on your part.

If anyone (from here or anywhere else) so publicly (and stupidly) violated their NDA by posting info on various forums, they'd be subject to appropriate retribution as defined by the NDA.

Offering testing spots to people on EA Sports forums would be a good idea as well - the fact is, Maximum Football needs as many interested, relatively knowledgeable and experienced football gamers as possible to look at the game and provide feedback in order to make the game as good as possible.

As for the criticism of the game on this board, one doesn't have to own the game to know that there are particular problems with it when said information is freely available on the Matrix forums. The idea that we don't want the game is disingenuous - we would want the game if it were any good. We're not attacking this game because of some bizarre vendetta. Yes, Daivd pissed off a lot of people with his off-handed insult of "text-sim" developers, but if his game had somehow turned out to be great, the vast majority of people here would acknowledge as such.

[Rizon]

I was completely convinced this game was going to be the bomb years ago, and looked forward to it being released and buying it.

No way in HELL I would ever buy it now. I want all those hours back I spent reading the boards long ago. Who can I bill?

[hoosierdude]

Originally Posted by Antmeister71

Here is a great post by TC Dale over at the Matrix boards:

Yeah, I figured someone needed to tell Erik that even the lunkheads around here can test.

I think he does the company and Winter an disservice by not getting folks that have the want and need to see a good football game come out, even if it isn't FOF. We all know Jim's game will be GOLD when it hits the street! (I want a TCY. I haven't had the pleasure of playing it.)


I think that ignoring this group of fans will not be in the longterm interest of Matrix Games, or any programmer that uses them for major distribution, or they need to bring in a huge fanbase to do the testing for them.

Why not abuse the abusers? Put 'em to work with an NDA and make it happen, the best thing that could happen is the game finally becomes playable. Let's hope some of you guys get the shot.

[shaggyra]

I publicly retract any and all statements that anyone on this board is more or less ethical than on anyone in the general population.

I apologize to all I may have hurt or offended.

I do still question why anyone here is more or less qualified or knowledgeable than anyone else in the general population.

[MJ4H]

Anyone here is not. Some here are. Meaning, the statement was not that memebership at FOFC makes one qualified, but that many who are members at FOFC are qualified. In other, words, we know from a lot of experience with these people that they have extensive knowledge and critical abilities that would make them excellent testers. Some have even worked on projects that were better run and had better results than this MF project. This easily makes them more qualified than someone randomly selected from the general population.

[jbmagic]

Why have beta testers? The game is in Alpha.

[hoosierdude]

Originally Posted by jbmagic

Why have beta testers? The game is in Alpha.

Dude you gotta stop pilin' on.. You are becoming a FOFC pithy poet.

[shaggyra]

Without naming names I can think of several who post here regularly that would be excellent testers.

Once again, I was and am not trying to offend anyone.

[Crim]

Originally Posted by shaggyra

I publicly retract any and all statements that anyone on this board is more or less ethical than on anyone in the general population.

I apologize to all I may have hurt or offended.

I do still question why anyone here is more or less qualified or knowledgeable than anyone else in the general population.

I don't understand one word your saying... but it sounds great!

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by shaggyra

I publicly retract any and all statements that anyone on this board is more or less ethical than on anyone in the general population.

I apologize to all I may have hurt or offended.

I do still question why anyone here is more or less qualified or knowledgeable than anyone else in the general population.

People who have been playing football games for years, and especially football simulation games? People who have combined to give all sorts of strategy tips detailing all the various nuances of the sport? People who have successfully developed and sold football simulation games? No, I can't see why people here would be any good at beta testing a game.

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by shaggyra

I publicly retract any and all statements that anyone on this board is more or less ethical than on anyone in the general population.

I apologize to all I may have hurt or offended.

I do still question why anyone here is more or less qualified or knowledgeable than anyone else in the general population.

Not FOFC in general, but there are a number of people of these boards who have extensive knowledge in a number of different sports and have contributed to the development to a number of games that TC Dale had pointed out. And TC Dale happens to be a indie programmer that used to be part of .400 Studios, but now formed his own company called Medley Games. So he is speaking from his own experience. I think it has more to deal with the population we have here who happen to be into sports. As you can already see, there are usually 30-80 people on throughout most hours of the day.

[BrianD]

dola,

Heck, people at FOFC must be fairly important if they are spending so much discussing our views on their forums.

[shaggyra]

Originally Posted by Antmeister71

Not FOFC in general, but there are a number of people of these boards who have extensive knowledge in a number of different sports and have contributed to the development to a number of games that TC Dale had pointed out. And TC Dale happens to be a indie programmer that used to be part of .400 Studios, but now formed his own company called Medley Games. So he is speaking from his own experience. I think it has more to deal with the population we have here who happen to be into sports. As you can already see, there are usually 30-80 people on throughout most hours of the day.

I've said before and I'm sure I'll say it again.

You're right, as usual.

I guess I went off on the idea of "offering" positions as beta (post-beta?)testers to anyone based solely on a board they may be apart of. (My interpetation, however erroneous) The sign-up is available to everyone, so why not just go through the sign-up procedure?

Again, I did not mean to offend. I have no doubt that there are more than the average amount of people here that could do the job excelently.

Olive brach extended......

[Franklinnoble]

Shaggy, you're too nice a guy for this board. Honestly, if you spend any more time here, we're all gonna get all polite and everything... then what?

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by BrianD

dola,

Heck, people at FOFC must be fairly important if they are spending so much discussing our views on their forums.

You do not talk to me that way. I am a powerful man. I drive a Dodge Stratus.

[Mustang]

I'm just surprised by Matrix seemingly wanting to alienate a segment of potential customers my making statements as such. Very odd... ah well. I have alot of different things to spend money on.

[Franklinnoble]

Is it dead yet?

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

Is it dead yet?

Well, it was.

[digamma]

Antmeister had some pretty good back and forth over the weekend on the MF boards.

[JS19]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

Is it dead yet?

He ain't dead yet. Sorry, little jerky boys. Carry on.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by MF Forum

And I think I would stay away from the Front Office Football fans. I've been over to FOFC and those guys seem awfuly picky about MaxFB. They feel like the Spanish Inqusition or something.

Picky, picky, picky!

[Bee]

Wow, that forum is really dead. I don't remember ever seeing a forum with such little talk of the game. The most talked about subject seems to be FOFC.

[QuikSand]

NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!

[/obligatory]

[Antmeister]

Well if you guys want to see more reviews, and I am sure that you do, here are a couple of them:
http://www.gamevortex.com/gamevortex/soft_rev.php/3005
http://www.3davenue.com/1539.html

By the way, there is a post release beta test for those of you that are interested. You will be able to get the game for free by signing an NDA an helping to weed out the bugs.

Other than that, the board seems to be waiting for the next patch.

It's really strange, but if anyone says anything negative about the game, regardless if the person purchased it or not, a few poeple take it as a personal attack against them. Don't get me wrong, I have seen fanboys before, but not to this extreme.

If anyone complains about the same problems that they are reporting as bugs in the beta forum, they turn it around on that person as exaggerations or lies.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

Is it dead yet?

It ain't over till the fat lady sings.

[SirFozzie]

From the 2nd review:

Whatever the circumstance may be, if you are reading this, you’ll definitely want to download a free demo version to try for yourself.

But there is no demo

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

From the 2nd review:

Whatever the circumstance may be, if you are reading this, you’ll definitely want to download a free demo version to try for yourself.

But there is no demo

I think that means you can pay for a $40 demo or $50 for a boxed demo version.

[cthomer5000]

I hear the box art on the demo is fantastic.