Draft Day Sports Football

[AgustusM]

Are you ready for some... football simulation? - Wolverine Studios

feels like this is the 20th - we are launching a text sim football game! announcement I have read over the years from a wide variety of studios. Hope it is true, I will believe it when I see it.

[RomaGoth]

Just received an email regarding this. Should be interesting to follow the development of this game. I always enjoyed their basketball games and I am not even that big of a B-Ball fan.

[Gary Gorski]

It's real - Brooks has done a great job developing his game over the past few years and I felt that teaming with us would help take the game to another level.

We will have the "proof" soon enough for all those interested

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

It's real - Brooks has done a great job developing his game over the past few years and I felt that teaming with us would help take the game to another level.

We will have the "proof" soon enough for all those interested

Always interested in a good sports sim game, especially football and hockey.

[digamma]

Good luck.

[jaygr]

This is good news. I was sad to hear that Beyond the Sideline is delayed (it is certainly understandable and Francis' health is most important), so hearing that another football sim is being developed definitely has me interested.

[Gary Gorski]

Wanted to share our blog post from today from Brooks. Its a basic intro as to what to expect from the game. We will be sharing more in depth details later on.

Introduction to Draft Day Sports: Pro Football

[FBPro]

Can't wait!!

[PilotMan]

Good luck Gary. It's a steep hill to climb, but it's exciting to see someone else giving it a go. I'll be following along.

[MizzouRah]

Wow.. the programmer of PFS football, I think this is a GREAT thing!

[Gary Gorski]

Another bump for another blog post. We're talking Game Modes today.

Draft Day Sports: Pro Football 2016 - Game Modes

[Gary Gorski]

Some weekend reading for you - check out all of the different league formats and customization available in DDS: Pro Football 2016

Draft Day Sports: Pro Football 2016 - League Formats

[MizzouRah]

Just release the damn game!

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

Just release the damn game!

Now what fun would that be

I don't want to say anything until its complete but Brooks is working on something that I really, really wanted to see in the game and I've got a couple items I'm reworking so we're getting close. In the meantime we're trying to do these blog posts to introduce the game and really talk about some of its key features. We will drop some screens in an upcoming blog post too.

[Dutch]

Despite my allegiance, I'm rooting for ya. #FOFhomer

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

Now what fun would that be

I don't want to say anything until its complete but Brooks is working on something that I really, really wanted to see in the game and I've got a couple items I'm reworking so we're getting close. In the meantime we're trying to do these blog posts to introduce the game and really talk about some of its key features. We will drop some screens in an upcoming blog post too.

For those of us who already own PFS, how about highlighting something that's new/different? So far I haven't seen anything beyond highlighting existing features of a game that has been mired in mediocrity for years. I assume that it will be getting a new Wolverine interface, but what's improving with regard to actual gameplay?

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

For those of us who already own PFS, how about highlighting something that's new/different? So far I haven't seen anything beyond highlighting existing features of a game that has been mired in mediocrity for years. I assume that it will be getting a new Wolverine interface, but what's improving with regard to actual gameplay?

First Ben, I appreciate you commenting knowing the important role you have played in the history of FOF.

I know you're partial to FOF for obvious reasons but I disagree that the game was "mired in mediocrity" as you put it. The game is growing and developing as are my own titles. There are things Brooks has improved on and suggestions I had as well for making it better too. I just ask you and the rest of FOFC keep an open mind and hopefully support Brooks and the franchise. Don't forget OOTP and FOF and were not what they currently are in their first few runs either and wouldn't have turned into the games they are without both a very talented developer and the support of the community. We have the former - we just need the latter

We will be discussing new/different things but I asked Brooks to start with the basics to introduce the game to the Wolverine Studios customer base. I found that many of our customers had no knowledge of PFS and we found the questions they were asking and features they were asking for were things well known to PFS players so we're starting by introducing the basics and will expand from there.

I'm not coding much but from the dialogue I have had I know alot of work has been done in regards to the plays/playbooks, rosters (current and historical), training and AI logic for timeouts and game situations. There have been other tweaks and changes as well as a couple of my requests which are being worked on and of course as you mentioned I'm giving the UI an overhaul.

If there is anything in particular you felt needed improvement I would be glad to hear it either here or via PM/email and I will pass it along. I think from what I have seen and the work being done that DDS:PF is going to be a great franchise and this year's version is going to be a big step in that direction.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

I know you're partial to FOF for obvious reasons

Actually, no. I'd put down FOF tomorrow if another game came around that was a better fit for what I'm looking for in a football game. Also, you probably don't realize how much experience I've had with PFS. I've played every single version of it since at least 2011, probably further back than that. Let's be clear: there have been more than *30* patches released in that time, and I've tested every...single.....one. I'm using 2011 as the benchmark date because that was the year that I spearheaded a project to get quite a few long-time FOF MP participants to put PFS through its paces and give Brooks feedback on it. (Brooks himself said how much he appreciated the feedback and the kind of testing we did.)

If there is anything in particular you felt needed improvement I would be glad to hear it

The biggest problem is probably not fixable because of the insistence of some on a particular feature: there has yet to be a 2D engine in a text sim that was able to deliver both accurate statistical performance and proper game balance, and PFS falls victim to that issue. When Brooks tries to tweak one thing in the engine, something else goes out of wack. That's not unique to Brooks. I've seen that issue with every single football sim that has tried to go that route.

Just off the top of my head (last patch was in April, so haven't played since shortly after that patch), other long-time issues include statistical reporting problem (really??? a QB who threw 120 passes has the QB rating record at 142.1???), numerous players who start 16 games one season, play at MVP level, then rarely/never play again, wayyyyyyyyyyy too many 95+ yard plays (2D engine issue, no doubt,) poor handling of contracts/renegotiations, draft/Free Agency AI issues, etc.

I could go on, but will stop there. Bottom line: I've put more hours into PFS than any other text sim that I've never been able to get through 10 years of a career in. I keep picking it up because I want to like it, but what I've seen over the years makes me pessimistic that it's ever going to deliver. That doesn't mean that I'm closed off to it. But 30+ patches in four years that haven't addressed significant core issues do make me 100% stand by my statement that the game has been mired in mediocrity for years.

I'll run a long sim and post in more detail later. If you want to see some of the feedback I gave four years ago, start with this post and continue onward in that thread: Front Office Football Central - View Single Post - Football sims dead?

[Ben E Lou]

50-year sim...

Longest Run
Season	Team	Player	Record
2016	Mia	Akers, C.	99
2021	Cin	Morgan, J.	99
2030	GB	Simonson, S.	99
2035	Ind	Peralta, V.	99
2041	Phi	Rider, B.	99
2063	Stl	Mcdowell, W.	99
2029	Den	Ames, D.	98
2035	Was	Alfonso, J.	97
2035	Ind	Moorman, A.	97
2042	Ari	Hauser, L.	97

(Dorsett is still the only one to go 99 yards...in 80ish years.)

Single-season pass attempt record: 587.
Punt returns are still capped at 89 yards. (Remember, I reported this four years ago.)

Longest FG
Season	Team	Player	Record
2031	Bal	Wicker, G.	65
2033	Min	Beard, B.	65
2035	Det	Carmona, F.	65
2045	Bal	Reynolds, V.	65
2047	Ind	Sanford, D.	65
2050	KC	Silva, J.	65
2053	Car	Deluca, A.	65
2059	SF	Bell, P.	65
2062	Bal	Buchanan, C.	65
2062	Hou	Hamilton, K.	65

Also reported four years ago: players on the all0-time leader board with comically low attempts: example, all 10 top FG% guys have 100%. Checked the first one. He has four FG attempts lifetime.

That's in like 10 minutes of a cursory look at stats.

[Gary Gorski]

Thank you Ben - I know how many hours you have poured into FOF over the years and the valuable resource you have been to Jim - I've seen the threads about the long term testing on FOF and of course your MP league. I'm very happy to learn that you have extensive experience with PFS and have been there to help Brooks in the past. I sincerely hope that you will continue to do that going forward with DDS:PF because that kind of support and feedback is priceless.

I can't speak for what the previous versions of the game were like. I know there has been a good deal of work done in terms of test sims for DDS:PF and I'm very excited about where we can take the game from here. I will run a test sim tonight of the latest build I have and see how things look. The nice thing about Brooks coming to Wolverine Studios is that we will be able to help each other out. I have been learning the code language he uses so I can mess around with it myself looking for ways to improve the game.

[TexasT]

Is this going to be released this year or next?

[Gary Gorski]

Our goal is to release it soon - I will give an exact date once I have one

[TexasT]

Good news!

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

The biggest problem is probably not fixable because of the insistence of some on a particular feature: there has yet to be a 2D engine in a text sim that was able to deliver both accurate statistical performance and proper game balance, and PFS falls victim to that issue. When Brooks tries to tweak one thing in the engine, something else goes out of wack. That's not unique to Brooks. I've seen that issue with every single football sim that has tried to go that route.

Because of the issues that I've seen simply by simming seasons, I've never really gotten into the weeds of trying to play the game. My first guess as to how to break the 2D engine in gameplay was correct: just load up on speed. I didn't do any custom game planning or even depth charting. Just drafted a speed team on offense, let it sim, and checked the results.

Team went 15-1.
WR1: 50 catches, 1414 yards (28.3 ypc!), 19 TDs
WR2: 66 catches, 1113 yards, 18 TDs
WR3: 29 catches, 921 yards (31.8ypc!), 3 TDs.
RB1: 52 catches, 888 yards (17.1ypc for a RB!), 6 TDs

QB: 276 for 440 (62.7%), 5159 yards, 52 TDs, 14 INts, 129.3 rg. 11.7ypa

Again, that's a first-year snake dispersal draft team, run by someone who has never bothered to figure out the game's "secrets." This was literally my first guess at breaking the engine (with the latest patch, mind you,) and my first try at drafting a team that would do that.

I'll try it again with a little custom game planning...

[Ben E Lou]

Early rising kids day after time change, so just now had a chance to do this.

Again, I don't know much about what works best in game planning. In normal circumstances, I would say "the people who have been playing this a lot could do even better," but given the stuff that group has completely overlooked up to now (see "trained monkeys" reference in the other thread from four years ago,) I have extremely low confidence that they've thought to try even the most obvious things. At any rate, I did what would seem obvious to me with a team like this on the game planning front: increased passing a little, increased tempo, increased usage of Spread and Shotgun. Team averaged 40.4ppg in going 16-0. Key players' stats:

QB: 266 for 432, 53 TD, 8 INT, 5461 yds, 12.6ypa, 20.5ypc, 137.3 rtg.
WR1: 52 catches, 1611 yards (31.0 ypc!), 17 TD
WR2: 66 catches, 1265 yards, 14 TD
RB1: 53 catches, 1055 yards, 9 TDs (Default playbooks, so I don't know if those are screen and swing passes that are always working, or if the game is sending him downfield a bunch against LBs because he's fast. He led the team with 24 drops, so my best guess is that the default playbooks are throwing deep passes to RBs a *lot*. This probably points to some serious undervaluing of OL, or perhaps to another speed issue: the fastest skill position players' little dots might be so fast that they're getting open downfield before the slower DE dots can get to the QB.)
TE: 60 catches, 824 yds, 6 TD
WR3: 32 catches, 715 yards, 8 TDs

And again, this is from someone who doesn't really know wtf he's doing when it comes to trying to play the game. From what I've seen here, though, give some of the smarter text simmers around FOFC a few weeks with the latest version of PFS, and I would expect someone to hit 6000yds/60TDs/145Rtg.

FWIW, I was trying to find out more ratings details, so I checked the Help File, and I discovered that Brooks actually tells the world how to break the game in the game's help file.

Originally Posted by PFS Help

 Strength - Key attribute for making tackles, breaking tackles, holding blocks and breaking through blocks
 Agility - Key attribute for avoiding other players whether you're chasing them or running from them
 Arm - QB key Attribute for getting a ball to a receiver. Higher Arm means more completions.
 Intelligence - Key attribute for ball awareness. QB's need high INT to avoid interceptions. DB's need high INT to make interceptions.
 Accuracy - QB accuracy with his throws. Increases completion pct and lowers interception rate.
 Tackling - Defensive attribute for bringing down a ball carrier.
 Speed - Key attribute for ALL players. Most important attribute for gaining yards and for chasing down ball carriers.
 Hands - Key attribute for making catches, making blocks, and making interceptions.
 Pass Blocking - Attribute to make successful pass blocks.
 Run Blocking - Attribute to make successful run blocks.
 Endurance - Key attribute for all players. Higher endurance players can stay on the field longer.
 Kick Distance - For kickers this affects FG pct at longer distances. For Punters this affects punt distance.
 Kick Accuracy - For kickers this affects FG pct. For Punters this affects killing the ball inside the 20.
 Overall - In Relative mode if a player is the best of his position he'll be rated towards 100. If he's just in the middle he'll be 50. If he's among the worst he'll be at the bottom. In Absolute mode this rating is an overall rating regardless of their peers.
General Notes: Speed kills. This is the most important attribute in my opinion since if you can't get a hold of someone it doesn't matter what your other attributes are.

So maybe the idea here is to let humans know that the game is imbalanced so speed gets properly spread across MP leagues? If so, then it's still crystal clear that the AI does not value it remotely properly, as I was able to gather the league's speediest players and put together a juggernaut in just one offseason.

Gary, I know you asked for other feedback, but really, until this speed issue can be brought into balance, it's useless to do much of anything else. And to be 100% clear, this has been my experience with every single football simulation that attempts to move little dots on a grid around: acquire enough fast dots, and the system falls apart entirely. At the very least, the AI teams need to value speed more, the overall rating needs to value speed more, etc. etc. etc. Maybe that would fix it on the surface, but I suspect that it's a deeper issue involving player creation, relative ratings, etc.

[Ben E Lou]

One more data point, and then I'll stop: it appears that the issue with RBs catching deeper passes isn't limited to human-run teams. Check out the top few ypc numbers:

[Dutch]

I have never played PFS, after looking at this, I'm somewhat stunned that Ben put so much time into it. If nothing else, it proves that Ben isn't an enemy of this game. Rather he is just the most qualified critic a developer/programmer could ask for. Hopefully Gary and Co. don't take this analysis the wrong way.

[SlyBelle1]

One thing I hope gets looked at in this version of the game is how preseason games are handled. In PFS, unrealistic player usage happens during these games, which could have an impact on your season. Basically, starters play a lot during every single preseason game, even if you have the option to use mostly backups selected, I have even seen my starting QB take all the snaps. Plus, when I have seen he backup put in, very strange rotation. Sometimes the two QBs will alternate plays in the same series, sometimes the starter will start the game, and then come back in in the 4th qtr. On top of that, I have never seen more than 2 QBs in a preseason game.

Although it might seem minor, if your starters get hurt or you aren't developing your bench in the preseason, seems like it could very impactful.

[SlyBelle1]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I have never played PFS, after looking at this, I'm somewhat stunned that Ben put so much time into it. If nothing else, it proves that Ben isn't an enemy of this game. Rather he is just the most qualified critic a developer/programmer could ask for. Hopefully Gary and Co. don't take this analysis the wrong way.

I hope a lot of people help provide constructive input since I think we all want to see a very in depth and good football game to play. But really hoping they take the time to improve the engine, just not put PFS into Wolverine Studio's UI.

Hopefully some kind of beta testing program will be implemented prior to release, certainly would be interested in helping out if that's an option. Unless they plan to just do their typical early access program for that.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

At any rate, I did what would seem obvious to me with a team like this on the game planning front: increased passing a little, increased tempo, increased usage of Spread and Shotgun. Team averaged 40.4ppg in going 16-0.

I think the technical term for that might be "broke as shit".

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I have never played PFS, after looking at this, I'm somewhat stunned that Ben put so much time into it.

Here's the thing: the peripherals are really, really, really good and intuitive. Notice the screenie I posted: easy filtering by position, active players, retired players, and then custom filters as well. There's good stuff like that all over the place--especially when it comes to reporting--but the core of the game is quite rough. If FOF's engine could be used with the way PFS does a number of things (especially reporting,) it'd be as close to an ideal text sim as I've ever played.

[flere-imsaho]

Good QA is always a good thing. Ben taking the time to run the numbers is a good thing. Hopefully it can be incorporated and made into an awesome game.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I think the technical term for that might be "broke as shit".

Well, or the New England Patriots.

[Gary Gorski]

First I do thank Ben for his comments and I hope he and other people will work with Brooks and DDS:PF to help it become the game everyone wants. I also most certainly do not take his comments as some attempt at putting down the game. I think Ben wants what we are all after and that is the best game possible.

We're running test sims here looking to improve the game especially with the areas Ben has mentioned. Brooks is a great developer and probably the thing I like best about DDS:PF is his physics based 2D engine and the potential it holds. Of course that does present some challenges since he's not just regurgitating numbers but it opens up the awesome ability to have a 2D display. The more people who give it a look and give their feedback the better the game will become over time so we are thankful for everyone who puts in the time and has a passion for the game and desire for the game to improve - clearly things that come through in Ben's posts.

[TheRivals40]

I play PFS in MP and I like to think I'm a pretty decent player. All that matters is:
QB: Accuracy, Arm, Int, Agility
RB: Speed, Strength, Agility
WR: Speed, Hands, Agility
OL: Strength, RB, PB, Agility for OTs, hands for pancakes but from my testing they don't mean anything
DE: Speed, Strength
DT: Strength, Speed if you want 20+ sacks
LB: Speed, Tackling you want half-decent Agility and Strength
DB: Speed, Agility, hands for INTs but I find that unimportant

It basically comes down to three ratings in every category. Yet is still fairly easy to at least make the playoffs in MP mode because not many people know this. Hopefully not too many people who play PFS read that, haha

And yeah, SP is simply UNPLAYABLE (except sandbox mode for testing plays). The only challenge is in MP mode. Brooks (who makes the game) is a good coder but knows just about nothing about the game of football. If you watch the plays in 2D mode, none of them work remotely like the should. Look at he defensive gameplan options:
4-3
3-4
Nickel
Dime
Cover 2

How does cover 2 belong there? lol

[APC]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

If FOF's engine could be used with the way PFS does a number of things (especially reporting,) it'd be as close to an ideal text sim as I've ever played.

The ideal football text sim would be to take the coach mode of Action PC football and add an offseason/career/GM element to it.

[Mota]

To me, the ideal football manager sim would be Football Manager but with actual football (American).

A game that makes you feel you're managing a team of real people and not just maximizing zeroes and ones.

[JimboJ]

Originally Posted by TheRivals40

And yeah, SP is simply UNPLAYABLE (except sandbox mode for testing plays). The only challenge is in MP mode.

That's a pretty strong statement. Can you be more specific? What exactly makes it unplayable?

[LaStarza61]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

First I do thank Ben for his comments and I hope he and other people will work with Brooks and DDS:PF to help it become the game everyone wants. I also most certainly do not take his comments as some attempt at putting down the game. I think Ben wants what we are all after and that is the best game possible.

We're running test sims here looking to improve the game especially with the areas Ben has mentioned. Brooks is a great developer and probably the thing I like best about DDS:PF is his physics based 2D engine and the potential it holds. Of course that does present some challenges since he's not just regurgitating numbers but it opens up the awesome ability to have a 2D display. The more people who give it a look and give their feedback the better the game will become over time so we are thankful for everyone who puts in the time and has a passion for the game and desire for the game to improve - clearly things that come through in Ben's posts.

I hope the 2D engine is improved over the current one in PFS as far as being able to follow what the heck is going on. I absolutely hate the way the game is viewed currently!

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by JimboJ

That's a pretty strong statement. Can you be more specific? What exactly makes it unplayable?

I don't own the game but it seems pretty obvious to me that the AI doesn't target speed and that if you just get the fastest guys in the league you could dominate. The fact that the AI doesn't realize that speed > everything else would make this pretty game breaking.

I mean...if speed kills...you have to make the AI realize it to make it playable.

[Gary Gorski]

Just a bump because we had a couple posts recently talking about things that would be additions for those familiar with the original PFS.

Draft Day Sports: Pro Football 2016 Feature Discussion - Training Camps - Wolverine Studios

Draft Day Sports: Pro Football 2016 Feature Discussion - Play Calling - Wolverine Studios

[TexasT]

OT, Gary, any word on the new NBA season disk?

[Cork]

Just saw this thread. This is fantastic news! I really like FPS and seeing it come into the WS fold should improve an already great game.

It's great to see that there are a few dedicated players willing to dig around and find the engine issues. Hopefully the devs will be able to use this info in a productive way and tighten up some of the holes in the engine.

Either way, it's a must buy for me.

[digamma]

Game to be released tomorrow.

[SlyBelle1]

Originally Posted by digamma

Game to be released tomorrow.

This was a surprise to see...thought we would hear more about all its features before it fully came out. Really hope it turns out more than just PFS in Wolverine UI...certainly will be checking it out.

[SirFozzie]

I sent Gary a ping via email to see if I can get a copy for review on an8bitmind.

[jaygr]

Originally Posted by SlyBelle1

This was a surprise to see...thought we would hear more about all its features before it fully came out. Really hope it turns out more than just PFS in Wolverine UI...certainly will be checking it out.

That's my worry too, and it seems like that could be the case.

Regardless I am happy to see a new football sim and look forward to hearing impressions. Even if currently it is just PFS in Wolverine UI for version one, hopefully it can be a title that lasts and gets improved upon.

[MizzouRah]

I'll wait on feedback for those of you who purchase.

[SlyBelle1]

According to their Facebook page, they will have a demo available so that will allow anybody considering it a chance to play beforehand.

[aran]

"This game is meant for a more casual audience" doesn't justify poor simulation and game-breaking strategies being easy to find out.

I gave Brooks dozens of items of feedback on sim accuracy and interface design from 2008 to 2010. He did make lots of improvements in that timeframe--but tbh most of it was basic stuff that I'd minimally expect of any game that claims to be football, like getting the flow of play right. I'm not talking about "didn't call a timeout to preserve time for offense to score at the end of the half when opponent was going 3-and-out", I'm talking about teams having 3rd and 11 from the 20 then 4th and 11 from the 1. I thought it was cute that quite a number of defensive players had pass attempts--gotta give those guys a chance to shine! Joking aside, Brooks was responsive to my input and did a good job at least taking care of these glaring problems.

There were some broader concerns that I had about talent progression not making much sense and draft classes not creating sensible talent distributions. I also had severe concerns about the rating system he was using being too low-resolution in terms of the skills it covers. Also it didn't look like he was using the right distribution of talent ever when generating players--Jim got it right when he chose a kind of long tail distribution with a spike at "vaguely competent" and his player ratings match that reality, whereas Brooks' ratings seemed to be Maddenized to a small range of like 70-100 for any player you'd consider playing.

In 2010 I noticed (and I think I reported) speed was overly dominant. Apparently it hasn't been fixed and has been embraced. That's a shame.

It's not hard to design a better UI than FOF's, but all the UI in the world will not make up for the fact that the game doesn't simulate football well. This is a game *specifically about* simulating football over the short- and medium-term. This "different markets" talk rings hollow to me. Sounds like an excuse for failing to do something that is hard. Lots of credit to Brooks for making the game in the first place and getting as far as he has gotten, but "different markets and audiences" is not a viable excuse for some of the issues Ben pointed out. I find it disappointing that Gary is using such rhetoric.