Happy 51st Birthday, Barry Sanders (with some random Emmitt Smith talk)

[albionmoonlight]

Sanders is the quintessential "you had to see him to understand it" player, so I get the sense that his star is fading a bit with the younger generation. Indeed, the evolution of the NFL into a passing league has caused all of the great old RBs to sort of fade into the background.

But for folks like me who were kids coming up watching football when Barry was at his peak, you just don't forget it.

And "What if Barry played for Dallas and Emmitt played for Detroit?" is still one of the great unprovable-either-way football debates of my lifetime.

Happy Birthday, Barry.

[Kodos]

Barry was a joy to watch run. Happy Birthday!

[CU Tiger]

The most over rated athlete of my generation yet still an all time great.
Somehow both of these things are true.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

The most over rated athlete of my generation yet still an all time great.
Somehow both of these things are true.

Both are true and incredible.

Hall of Fame running back. One of the most entertaining players to ever put on pads. Yet he's become more overrated as we gain a better understanding of what makes an efficient offense.

[Radii]

Emmit was less flashy but Detroit would have won more games with him than Sanders. Still a great and incredibly fun to watch, of course.

[larrymcg421]

If anything, I think most advanced stats proponents underrate Sanders. I looked up his rankings on Football Outsiders.

DVOA, DYAR

89: 3rd, 1st
90: 1st, 3rd
91: 5th, 15th
92: 23rd, 23rd
93: 22nd, 20th
94: 2nd, 2nd
95: 7th 12th
96: 2nd, 2nd
97: 2nd, 2nd
98: 29th, 28th

As you can see, there were three seasons where his efficiency was poor. Other than that, he's top 3 for 5 other seasons and top 10 two other years. Yes, there were times that Barry tried too hard for the home run instead of the consistent positive yardage, but the idea that he was always like that is a simplification of his career.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

The most over rated athlete of my generation yet still an all time great.
Somehow both of these things are true.

Originally Posted by Atocep

Both are true and incredible.

Hall of Fame running back. One of the most entertaining players to ever put on pads. Yet he's become more overrated as we gain a better understanding of what makes an efficient offense.

Sometimes you just have to enjoy the show. He was for sure a unique talent.

[tarcone]

Happy Birthday. He could probably still play today.

[TCY Junkie]

My favorite thing is how he handed ball to ref after score, no big deal. As humble as he was talented.

[TCY Junkie]

Originally Posted by Radii

Emmit was less flashy but Detroit would have won more games with him than Sanders. Still a great and incredibly fun to watch, of course.

After emmitt with two t's got hospitalized he didn't run with the same passion, except for game after Walter died. Barry Sanders played at high level his whole career. Smith to me was better at reading blocking while Sanders was way more elusive. I think smith struggles more in Detroit. It's also easier to run sideways so Sanders got more chances to show his elusiveness in Detroit. Lucky for fans they both landed where they did.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by Radii

Emmit was less flashy but Detroit would have won more games with him than Sanders.

I dunno about that. See: Scott Mitchell, Rodney Peete, Wayne Fontes and Bobby Ross.

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by Radii

Emmit was less flashy but Detroit would have won more games with him than Sanders. Still a great and incredibly fun to watch, of course.

Quite the opposite, if Barry would have been on Dallas, he would have been the all time yardage leader and would have probably stayed a few more years.

[Brian Swartz]

That's the way I see it too. I don't think anyone would break Barry's records if he played behind what was hands down the best offensive line in the league much of Emmitt's career. That doesn't mean he wasn't an outstanding back, but Barry had … Lomas Brown. Who was really good. But in terms of people blocking for him, he didn't have much else worth mentioning.

[pbot]

Didn't know it at the time, of course, but I was at his last NFL game.

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

That's the way I see it too. I don't think anyone would break Barry's records if he played behind what was hands down the best offensive line in the league much of Emmitt's career. That doesn't mean he wasn't an outstanding back, but Barry had … Lomas Brown. Who was really good. But in terms of people blocking for him, he didn't have much else worth mentioning.

Emmitt was damn good.. but yeah, that OL was maybe the best ever.

[CU Tiger]

Dallas OL in the 90s was unworldly.

People also sleep on the fact that Detroit had the highest paid OL in the league Sanders last 6 (I think) years. They signed all pros who came there and then "sucked".

What made Barry great, his elusiveness and free stlye bounce, also makes him an OL's worst nightmare as a running back. We all talk about drive blocking a man 10 yards down field, but that rarely happens. In big boy football often the difference between a successful block and an unsuccessful one is simply what side of the defender an OL gets his hips. If the RB then bounces in or out the OL is suddenly "wrong" and gives up a TFL.

In contrast Smith was patient and ran where the play was designed at times even to the detriment of his own stats.

There is a reason, imho, Sanders never won a championship at any level of football. HS/College or Pro. Im not sure how many NFL HOF RBs can say that.

[QuikSand]

CU Tiger has my proxy here

[albionmoonlight]

Because it seems to be a good place to talk about it (maybe I'll change the thread title), Emmitt Smith has to the the most underrated superstar of his era.

If you ask people to name the greatest RB of all time, I think you get a good mix of Jim Brown, Walter Payton, OJ Simpson, and Barry Sanders. Yeah, some people will say Emmitt, but he's far from a top choice, I think.

But you look at the numbers, and you get
All time leading rusher
3X Super Bowl Champ (rushed for >100 in two of the games)
4X First team All-Pro
8X Pro Bowler
Top 10 fantasy player for a decade

Basically, the guy won, the guy had a good peak, the guy had longevity, and the guy put up numbers.

I'm not here to say he was the greatest RB ever (I'm a Walter Payton guy, myself). But it is kind of crazy that he does not even seem to get much into the discussion.

I think that CU hits on it a bit--Smith played so much by the book that he never wowed you. He just did his job, and we tend not to remember those guys so much.

[QuikSand]

Emmitt Smith's career is basically the actual play-out of a barroom conversation among friends. "Yeah, put a guy like that behind a great O-line and he'll be a superstar for a decade and break all the records." Yup, that's exactly right.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

There is a reason, imho, Sanders never won a championship at any level of football. HS/College or Pro. Im not sure how many NFL HOF RBs can say that.

I'm not sure how many HOF running backs can say they had only two years as the starter between their combined high school and college years. He only started one year at his high school because he was backing up his older brother and he only started one year at Oklahoma State because he was backing up Thurman Thomas.

Also seems worth mentioning that he might not have won a championship the one year he did start with OSU, but he did run for 2856 yards and 44 touchdowns (8 more TDs than Emmit Smith had in 3 combined years at FSU)

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

I'm not sure how many HOF running backs can say they had only two years as the starter between their combined high school and college years. He only started one year at his high school because he was backing up his older brother and he only started one year at Oklahoma State because he was backing up Thurman Thomas.

Also seems worth mentioning that he might not have won a championship the one year he did start with OSU, but he did run for 2856 yards and 44 touchdowns (8 more TDs than Emmit Smith had in 3 combined years at FSU)

I'm, also, not sure how many HOF running backs can say that they led the Detroit Lions to a playoff win (in the last 60 years). Winning a playoff game for the Lions is pretty much like winning a championship for any real franchise.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

I'm, also, not sure how many HOF running backs can say that they led the Detroit Lions to a playoff win (in the last 60 years). Winning a playoff game for the Lions is pretty much like winning a championship for any real franchise.

Unfortunately, this is a good point, & that playoff game was against Smith & the Cowboys.

[larrymcg421]

Wait, are we judging running backs by championships now?

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

Also seems worth mentioning that he might not have won a championship the one year he did start with OSU, but he did run for 2856 yards and 44 touchdowns (8 more TDs than Emmit Smith had in 3 combined years at FSU)

If only he had been more patient and consistent instead of grabbing all those TD's, then Oklahoma State clearly would've won the national title that year.

[thesloppy]

I can barely comprehend 44 TDs in 13 games.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

If only he had been more patient and consistent instead of grabbing all those TD's, then Oklahoma State clearly would've won the national title that year.

Yeah, for whatever reason people rarely bring up how bad he was at Safety. He might've had 189 yards & 4 TD's vs Nebraska, but 0 tackles as they put up 63 points!

Originally Posted by thesloppy

I can barely comprehend 44 TDs in 13 games.

*12* games

[stevew]

Isn’t AD(AP?)a more accurate comparison to Sanders? I know Smith was a contemporary of Sanders. but the Vikings were just all in on the one back. He never won shit even though he was often head and shoulders “the best back anyone has ever seen play live” for people of a certain era.

With the obvious off field differences. Peterson oftentimes being human garbage.

[djsatu]

Best running back that I ever saw. What he did with that O-line in Detroit throughout the years was amazing. Humble guy that ran with passion.

[MizzouRah]

Ok so I'm not crazy having Barry as my top RB of all time?

[TCY Junkie]

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

Ok so I'm not crazy having Barry as my top RB of all time?

If Jimmy Johnson had Sanders he would have done another Walker trade. No doubt about it to me, Jimmy would have preferred smith. Sanders would not have better numbers in dallas, he wouldn't be allowed to and not be traded. Detroit didn't really play to smith strengths, why I think he does worst and I see no reason for Detroit to be smart enough to adapt to his skills.

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by TCY Junkie

If Jimmy Johnson had Sanders he would have done another Walker trade. No doubt about it to me, Jimmy would have preferred smith. Sanders would not have better numbers in dallas, he wouldn't be allowed to and not be traded. Detroit didn't really play to smith strengths, why I think he does worst and I see no reason for Detroit to be smart enough to adapt to his skills.

I guess we'll never know.

[Lathum]

We all know Brandon Jacobs is the greatest RB of all time

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by stevew

Isn’t AD(AP?)a more accurate comparison to Sanders? I know Smith was a contemporary of Sanders. but the Vikings were just all in on the one back. He never won shit even though he was often head and shoulders “the best back anyone has ever seen play live” for people of a certain era.

With the obvious off field differences. Peterson oftentimes being human garbage.

I think there's a certain line of running backs who possess that set of skills that really catch the eye, and that is different than the more conventional good athlete who learns the basics of the easiest-to-learn position. Right? So, for Barry Sanders, the fairest peer group is Gale Sayers, Billy Sims, and more recently guys like Reggie Bush and maybe Tiki Barber or Warrick Dunn. (Obviously not putting anyone there past Sayers in the same tier, just the same "style") But trying to cross-compare anyone from that list with players like Larry Csonka, Jerome Bettis, Eric Dickerson... it just doesn't make much sense.

But it's almost like these are two separate positions on a football team. The skill sets of Emmitt Smith and Barry Sanders are so different, it's folly to fiddle around with what-ifs between the two of them. Would Sanders have been much greater behind a great line? Seems like it, but he honestly just isn't the sort of back that would maximize that advantage, in the way that Emmitt Smith did. They are not interchangeable parts, not really even close.

I think this is a "choose your fighter" setup. Greatest elusiveness-based back is probably between Sayers and Sanders, and I don't know enough about the former to have a firm opinion. Barry Sanders was really exciting to watch, though.

Then there are the mostly-power backs, and that's its own conversation, I think. Was Jim Brown a pure power back? If so, then he's the best in class, I think.

And then, maybe, you have the all-around backs, where there's still an open conversation about who was the top dog there, with Payton properly being the guy to measure up against.

(The line between power and everything seems more gray, in my mind, than that between the elusive guys versus anyone else)