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Old 05-01-2018, 10:14 AM   #751
Ben E Lou
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Originally Posted by Atocep View Post
I disagree

This is an NRA event where guns are typically allowed. The secret service says no guns for the safety of the Vice President so no guns. Do you think if any other guest speaker had security with a similar requirement that the NRA would allow them to speak? By allowing anyone to speak under those conditions, secret service or not, the NRA sends mixes messages on whether or not less guns means more safety.

Part of the blow back on this has also been because some of their own members were questioning it and others were pushing for increased background checks to enter in exchange for being allowed to carry. A hypocritical stance by NRA members.
Ummm. No. Nuanced arguments like that are meaningless when the MUCH bigger-picture issue is that several news outlets...including the AP...falsely claimed that "THE NRA BANNED GUNS."

AP corrects earlier report that NRA banned guns at Pence speech | TheHill

And again I say...how completely unthinking and/or ignorant do you have to be to write or pass along that story??? Once that has happened, retreating to "oh...well.....um...ok....THEY'RE SENDING MIXED MESSAGES" does not help.
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Old 05-01-2018, 11:35 AM   #752
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And again I say...how completely unthinking and/or ignorant do you have to be to write or pass along that story???

I think they're very thoughtful and conscious about clicks and generating social media activity.

Hell, this is the kind of stuff the Russians sent around to rile everyone up.
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Old 05-01-2018, 11:37 AM   #753
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I think they're very thoughtful and conscious about clicks and generating social media activity.

This.

And once it's out there, it becomes "truth" for a sizable chunk of the masses.

It's the old "above the fold story ... followed by page 27 correction" scenario
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Old 05-01-2018, 12:00 PM   #754
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This is just a dumb and counter-productive red herring.

While this is true, the administration was elected and is operating behind a slew of dumb and counter-productive red herrings. It points to the same conundrum the left has had this whole time - can you win an argument while sticking to the facts in today's environment where facts don't hold the same weight they once did (or in many cases, any weight).

Idealism is great, but when your facts are just going to get steamrolled anyway, does it behoove you to stick to them?
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Old 05-01-2018, 12:00 PM   #755
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I reckon that's a possibility, too, but I typically don't assume "nefarious" is the answer when "incompetent" is also a possibility.
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Old 05-01-2018, 12:03 PM   #756
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Or what they said.

(Or even to paraphrase you - "nuanced arguments are meaningless.")
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Old 05-01-2018, 12:03 PM   #757
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Oops. Cuerv jumped in. In case it wasn't obvious, the above was in response to molson and JIMGA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cuervo72 View Post
While this is true, the administration was elected and is operating behind a slew of dumb and counter-productive red herrings. It points to the same conundrum the left has had this whole time - can you win an argument while sticking to the facts in today's environment where facts don't hold the same weight they once did (or in many cases, any weight).

Idealism is great, but when your facts are just going to get steamrolled anyway, does it behoove you to stick to them?
I refuse to believe the correct solution is "I hate the things Trump does so much that I'm going to do those things!"
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Old 05-01-2018, 12:09 PM   #758
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[quote=cuervo72;3203147]While this is true, the administration was elected and is operating behind a slew of dumb and counter-productive red herrings. /QUOTE]

Umm, you must have overslept or something.

That was the last guy.
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Old 05-01-2018, 12:11 PM   #759
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Or what they said.

(Or even to paraphrase you - "nuanced arguments are meaningless.")
If we're being utilitarian here, I'd argue that the answer is to truth-tell to convince people on your side to go vote. Spreading falsehoods that advance MAGA's "fake news" narrative serves as nice red meat for those who just want to make Trump/the NRA/the right look bad, but it also helps to create more MAGA voters. Further, it turns off people like me who might be inclined to switch sides on certain issues if both sides didn't work so hard to convince me that they're incompetent (or have nefarious motives.)
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Old 05-01-2018, 12:21 PM   #760
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If we're being utilitarian here, I'd argue that the answer is to truth-tell to convince people on your side to go vote.

Except that, quite possibly, pure truth doesn't motivate turnout.

I mean, not unless you can utilize it in such a way that it creates significant rage.

(And that's probably about as unbiased / bi-partisan a political statement as I'll ever make)
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Old 05-01-2018, 12:28 PM   #761
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Except that, quite possibly, pure truth doesn't motivate turnout.

I mean, not unless you can utilize it in such a way that it creates significant rage.

(And that's probably about as unbiased / bi-partisan a political statement as I'll ever make)
Hmmm...I'm gonna chew on that one for a bit. Off the top of my head I can't decide if I agree or disagree with you there. (So, yeah, it must be a pretty bi-partisan statement. ) It rings true on the surface, but something about it also bothers me...
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Old 05-01-2018, 01:29 PM   #762
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Except that, quite possibly, pure truth doesn't motivate turnout.

I mean, not unless you can utilize it in such a way that it creates significant rage.

(And that's probably about as unbiased / bi-partisan a political statement as I'll ever make)


The indisputable truths from the last year and a half of Trump leadership should be creating more rage on the left and in the center than the last decade of Fox News propaganda and fearmongering combined. I don't mean pee tapes and porn stars and nitpicky pointing out of hypocrisy. If the direct words that come out of our president's mouth on a daily basis and the ease with which members of his own party in congress are willing to excuse his words and actions on a daily basis are not cause for enough rage to motivate record turnouts this fall and in 2020 if, god forbid, Trump is still president then... well, we're proper fucked. Most likely, we're proper fucked as a nation anyway. We're spiraling out of control, I think we're past the point to bring it back in to where we can ever debate with any amount of reason ever again. The divide will continue to grow until we break, quite possibly in my lifetime.
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Old 05-01-2018, 01:36 PM   #763
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I refuse to believe the correct solution is "I hate the things Trump does so much that I'm going to do those things!"

Despite my clear outrage at... pretty much everything right now, I do agree with this entirely. I don't know what the solution is, but I know that it's not sinking to Trump's level.
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Old 05-01-2018, 09:44 PM   #764
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Missing the humor in the situation.

NRA yokel: "The gubmint wants to take our right to carry guns!!!"

The gubmint: "We are taking away your 'right' to carry guns to this event."

NRA yokel: "Thank you sir, may I have another."
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Old 05-01-2018, 11:48 PM   #765
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Yeah I actually think it's worse that the government banned the guns from the event and not the NRA. The NRA is just some lobbying group for gun manufacturers. It's an easy target but they aren't elected officials.

The administrations position on guns has been that the more people who have them, the safer we all are. Why was the Vice President allowing his secret service to put him in a more dangerous situation (in his moronic logic)?

Also gun supporters threw a fit when private business owners were allowed to put a "no guns in our business" sign outside their store and have it be legally enforced. That's a private business too. You'd think they'd be up in arms about this since it's the government doing it, not someone's own private property.
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Old 05-02-2018, 08:57 AM   #766
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The whole thing is dumb. Of course the NRA are hypocrites... was there ever any doubt they weren't?

But on the flip side allowing people to carry guns to event with the Vice President at it... give me a break. Its like when Republican voters like my mom complain about Hillary and celebrities having armed security or Al Gore flying in a jet. It's the dumbest form of argument that for whatever reason international press has decided is some sort of deep thought nobody ever came up with except the Parkland survivors.
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Old 05-14-2018, 07:25 PM   #767
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A different type of school shooting.

https://nypost.com/video/hero-mom-sa...utside-school/
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A gunman who targeted a group of families gathered for a Mother’s Day celebration at a school in Brazil was fatally shot by an off-duty cop. Katia Sastre was praised by local officials for her bravery and was credited with saving the day.

I feel sorry for his family who has probably seen this clip but I'm glad he got what he deserved.
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Old 05-16-2018, 01:11 PM   #768
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Great job. Not alot of details but this is how its supposed to work when there is an active shooter incident at school.

'Heroic' resource officer hailed for stopping armed teen at high school, saving lives - ABC News
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An Illinois school resource officer stopped an armed teenager at a high school this morning, according to the local police chief, who applauded the officer for saving "countless" lives.

When the 19-year-old suspect fired several shots this morning near a gym at Dixon High School, the school resource officer reported the incident to authorities and then confronted the gunman, Dixon police chief Steven Howell said at a news conference.

When confronted, the suspect started running away, and the officer pursued him, Howell said. The suspect shot several rounds at the officer, and the officer then returned fire, hitting the gunman, the chief added.
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Old 05-16-2018, 02:02 PM   #769
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That's awesome!

Now we just have to make sure that teens only do their shooting at school!

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Old 05-18-2018, 10:36 AM   #770
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Multiple fatalities being reported after a shooting at a high school in Santa Fe, TX, south of Houston.
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Old 05-18-2018, 11:27 AM   #771
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A shotgun? That can't be right, can it?
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Old 05-18-2018, 11:45 AM   #772
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Played a couple of basketball games at Santa Fe when I was in high school. Crazy.
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Old 05-18-2018, 12:00 PM   #773
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Yeah, my in-laws live in Sante Fe so we've visited there often. My FiL is on the volunteer fire dept but was unavailable due to a surgery last week. It seems inevitable that all Americans will be impacted in a similar way eventually.
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Old 05-18-2018, 12:06 PM   #774
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A shotgun? That can't be right, can it?

Glad to see I'm not the only one who had some initial ??? over that report.

(once again, some commonality to our environmental history rears its head)
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Old 05-18-2018, 01:58 PM   #775
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It sounds like he had a lot of weapons. Sawed off shotgun, AR15, pistol, and even pipe bombs.

Normal country.
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Old 05-18-2018, 02:00 PM   #776
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Yeah, my in-laws live in Sante Fe so we've visited there often. My FiL is on the volunteer fire dept but was unavailable due to a surgery last week. It seems inevitable that all Americans will be impacted in a similar way eventually.

We had a close call in rural Illinois the other day. Not sure if it made much national news. Kid came in with a gun and started shooting but luckily a resource officer was right there and was able to fire back.

One wounded in Dixon High School shooting - Chicago Tribune
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Old 05-18-2018, 02:20 PM   #777
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Also the obligatory: https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-p...tm_campaign=SF
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Old 05-18-2018, 02:39 PM   #778
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Don't these things tend to happen as school opens or closes? Seems like it anyways. Maybe instead of having our cops posted up writing chickenshit traffic violations, we could have them in school parking lots a lot more frequently. Sounds like a cop engaged the shooter, so kudos to that guy, he save some lives
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Old 05-18-2018, 02:41 PM   #779
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More people are killed in traffic accidents than school shootings. Not sure if having cops stand around in school parking lots is a good use of resources.
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Old 05-18-2018, 02:50 PM   #780
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More likely to die being in high school than being in the active military this year.

2018 has been deadlier for schoolchildren than service members - The Washington Post
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Old 05-18-2018, 03:28 PM   #781
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Glad to see I'm not the only one who had some initial ??? over that report.
Confirmation from the authorities at a presser that he had a .38 revolver and a shotgun. No comments that I've seen on if he used one or both.
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Old 05-18-2018, 03:37 PM   #782
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Not a surprise that his social media throws up a ton of red flags. Obsessed with guns, knives, and animal torture. Had pics with the Iron Cross on his clothes.

Sure are a lot of these Nazi guys shooting up schools.
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Old 05-18-2018, 03:45 PM   #783
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I do not have well-organized thoughts on this topic. Mostly grief during days like today, and then a sense of confusion about what policy changes would be effective.

Anyway...here in MD, a deep blue state where we had a school incident during our recent legislative session, a bill passed to target the "red flag" matter. (We already have pretty strict gun laws here, but did also just pass a ban on bump stocks) If you're a republican running for the state legislature this year, you can now count on this bill being a centerpiece of the debate about whether you are conservative enough to serve. A few otherwise good and effective legislators are likely to lose their seats over being willing to support a bill trying to act on "red flags" to prevent groups of people from getting/keeping guns.

Here's some online stuff about it, for a flavor.
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Old 05-18-2018, 04:28 PM   #784
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Pretty simple rule. A minor uses your gun to commit a crime and you go to jail too. Father should be tried with accessory.
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Old 05-18-2018, 04:46 PM   #785
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Also congrats to Texas for electing people with maybe a 70 IQ to higher office.


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Old 05-18-2018, 05:01 PM   #786
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Also congrats to Texas for electing people with maybe a 70 IQ to higher office.



That's probably it, if there were a single enterance a shooter wouldn't have a large group of students clumoed together as they slowly exit or enter the building. The logic checks out with me.
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Old 05-18-2018, 05:11 PM   #787
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That's probably it, if there were a single enterance a shooter wouldn't have a large group of students clumoed together as they slowly exit or enter the building. The logic checks out with me.

You wouldn't need to bring a gun. Just start a fire and watch as 4,000 people try to exit through a single door.
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Old 05-18-2018, 05:43 PM   #788
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He was also a proponent of the Jade Helm bs
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Old 05-18-2018, 06:54 PM   #789
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And the ringleader behind the Bathroom bill crap.
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Old 05-18-2018, 08:29 PM   #790
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Not a surprise that his social media throws up a ton of red flags. Obsessed with guns, knives, and animal torture. Had pics with the Iron Cross on his clothes.

Sure are a lot of these Nazi guys shooting up schools.

There was also a hammer and sickle (Soviets) and a Rising Sun (Imperial Japan) in that same picture, along with several other symbols. I doubt nazis wear the hammer and sickle along side the rising sun. Seems more like a disturbed individual obsessed with violence than a Nazi.
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Old 05-18-2018, 09:33 PM   #791
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There was also a hammer and sickle (Soviets) and a Rising Sun (Imperial Japan) in that same picture, along with several other symbols. I doubt nazis wear the hammer and sickle along side the rising sun. Seems more like a disturbed individual obsessed with violence than a Nazi.

Maybe. Just seems like a theme with these mass shooters has emerged over the years. Many of them obsessed with Nazi ideology. Parkland shooter had put swastikas on his weapons.
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Old 05-18-2018, 09:40 PM   #792
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So much of that feels like attention getting behavior. At least that's how it starts. From there, it's more like an indoctrination into a gang, or cult, where they are reinforced and praised online. From there, those attention getting actions start to take on feelings of agreement and become ideology. It's really the same way that Muslim extremism takes hold too. It's the way gangs recruit. It's not a big mystery. It's a complicated, nuanced problem that doesn't fit a single answer. So politically, it's pretty much ignored, or the person is instead labeled as troubled or disturbed, which is a whole lot easier to rationalize away.
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Old 05-18-2018, 09:42 PM   #793
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More likely to die being in high school than being in the active military this year.

2018 has been deadlier for schoolchildren than service members - The Washington Post

The Post's headline is very misleading. There are 1.3 million people serving in the military and 50 million students in the US. That means it's 17 times more deadly being a service member than it is being a student (that's just combat deaths). The Post is making sound like a soldier is in a safer position than a kid attending school.
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Old 05-18-2018, 09:42 PM   #794
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Accused Texas high school gunman described as bullied loner in a trench coat
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Old 05-18-2018, 09:52 PM   #795
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Pretty simple rule. A minor uses your gun to commit a crime and you go to jail too. Father should be tried with accessory.

This.
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Old 05-18-2018, 10:04 PM   #796
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Not a surprise that his social media throws up a ton of red flags. Obsessed with guns, knives, and animal torture. Had pics with the Iron Cross on his clothes.

Sure are a lot of these Nazi guys shooting up schools.

Animal torture? Wtf.

Isn't it pretty well established that psychopaths are prone to practice animal torture when they're young? I mean, maybe that's just an overplayed movie trope, but, seriously, how does anyone miss that red flag?
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Old 05-18-2018, 10:27 PM   #797
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Animal torture? Wtf.

Isn't it pretty well established that psychopaths are prone to practice animal torture when they're young? I mean, maybe that's just an overplayed movie trope, but, seriously, how does anyone miss that red flag?

What parent wants to believe that their kid is a psychopath? What parent is willing to think that their kid just might be the one that could shoot up the school? I bet that many parents would look for anything to rationalize those feelings to avoid the other thoughts. The parents are the gatekeepers to this. If it's not them, or they can't be trusted, then what? Where does it go from there? Government intervention?
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Old 05-19-2018, 08:23 AM   #798
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Animal torture? Wtf.

Isn't it pretty well established that psychopaths are prone to practice animal torture when they're young? I mean, maybe that's just an overplayed movie trope, but, seriously, how does anyone miss that red flag?

I've not seen the animal torture part before. If true, I would definitely agree that's a red flag.
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Old 05-19-2018, 01:57 PM   #799
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Old 05-19-2018, 02:05 PM   #800
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The animal torture came from a couple news outlets that found a picture (or pictures?) of squished frogs on his Instagram. It could have just been something a teenager saw and took a photo of.

This is a good piece on the animal torture thing.

How reliably does animal torture predict a future school shooter? - The Washington Post
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