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Old 07-19-2019, 04:31 PM   #18001
Brian Swartz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SackAttack
Bullshit. If you gave the tiniest fucking shit about "defending our institutions," you would have voted for Clinton in 2016 to prevent McConnell from benefitting from his fuckery with Garland. That was an attack on our institutions for political gain long before the Twitter Shitter in Chief took office, but you apparently gave no shits about that.

Nonsense. Here we have the last vestige of those without a good argument; presumption of motives and assassination of the same. I said the stonewalling of Garland was horribly wrong at the time, and I also said during the campaign that I wouldn't support Trump or Clinton for anything as important as dogcatcher. I stand by that assessment. We didn't have a campaign between a good candidate and a bad one; we had a campaign between two totally unacceptable ones. On that point I agree with the majority of America, the difference is in what I decided to do about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SackAttack
The pressure, as PilotMan pointed out, should be on Senate Republicans to pull their head out of their asses instead of pretending that Trump is the only man who could ever have given the GOP what it wants on tax cuts, ACA, the judiciary, and on down the line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SackAttack
The Democratic House is under no obligation to fire the one bullet in their gun to useless effect just because you really really want them to.

This isn't an either/or situation. Both bear responsibility for how they have acted, and how they act now. I don't in any way absolve the GOP senate for ignoring Trump's misdeeds. As a Constitutional matter though, the House most definitely has a duty - and not just the Democrats in it but the Republicans as well. As a matter of process, the pressure will never be on the Senate to the degree it needs to be until they are required to go on the record that what Trump has done isn't impeachable, and they can't do that unless the House impeaches.

Last edited by Brian Swartz : 07-19-2019 at 04:43 PM.
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Old 07-19-2019, 04:34 PM   #18002
Brian Swartz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPhillips
I'll give you that Paul is anti-spending, but anyone who keeps voting for tax cuts can't be sen as anti-deficit.

They can be when paygo was included in the initial bill and then they tried to get it back in after it was later removed. Tying a tax cut to equivalent (at a minimum) cuts in spending is literally exactly what someone who is in favor of lower taxes and anti-deficit would be expected to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PilotMan
You've won power. That kind of power that changes political landscapes. Yes, you've also moved closer to a kind of political fascism like we saw in GOT, where of course she must destroy everything to rebuild it, but the right way. But short of fighting fire with fire, you end up essentially laying down for the train and getting run over.

With Ben on this. If this is the price for getting power, the exchange is a net negative and it isn't close. It's not like this is new, it's just the next step. Polling showed during the Clinton process that more than twice as many Americans thought he had obstructed justice than wanted him impeached for it. This is a problem not fundamentally with those in power but with the electorate, and changing the figureheads won't change that. We'll simply have a new party in charge pursuing a different set of policy agendas by unacceptable means, as has increasingly been the case in modern America. The next president will not I'm sure be as bad as Trump, but as long as this behavior prevails and is unchallenged there is no reason to expect the overall trend line not to continue to go negative. Principle matters far more than power ever could.

Last edited by Brian Swartz : 07-19-2019 at 04:40 PM.
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Old 07-19-2019, 04:47 PM   #18003
JPhillips
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Paul was fine with no pay-go on all of the tax cuts. He's anti-spending, but the deficit is at best a secondary concern.
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Old 07-19-2019, 04:58 PM   #18004
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Originally Posted by Radii View Post
Yeah, its not about immigrants, its about people of color and racism. Its impossible to bring this up too often, keep doing it.

Definitely. The "go back to Africa" insult has been used on black people for a long time. Even to people who have been in this country for generations.
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Old 07-19-2019, 05:14 PM   #18005
panerd
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Originally Posted by RainMaker View Post
He voted for the massive tax cuts for corporations and wealthy people which created the deficit he is grandstanding about.

That's what created the deficits? Not the trillions of dollars being spent?
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Old 07-19-2019, 05:18 PM   #18006
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Late to the party but this:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben E Lou View Post
Simple: if you believe he has committed offenses that are impeachable, you impeach. If you don't do that, you've made the decision to turn a blind eye to high crimes and misdemeanors, and you've abdicated your duty as a member of Congress.


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Old 07-19-2019, 05:56 PM   #18007
tarcone
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Unfortunately right and wrong is subjective and I believe Congress and their quest for power has retarded their ability to understand what is right and what is wrong.

This, what we, as The People, feel is wrong is not what they, as congress, feel is wrong.
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Old 07-19-2019, 06:08 PM   #18008
JPhillips
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Originally Posted by panerd View Post
That's what created the deficits? Not the trillions of dollars being spent?

When you cut taxes with no plan to reduce spending, yes. It was crystal clear what would happen, and now we're going to have a trillion dollar deficit with a booming economy. The next recession is going to be that much more painful because we're already operating with low interest rates and massive deficit spending.
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Old 07-19-2019, 06:17 PM   #18009
JPhillips
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Apparently Rand Paul is negotiating with the Iranian government trying to get them to sign a deal that says they will never pursue nuclear weapons.

You know, like the one Trump pulled out of.
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Old 07-19-2019, 07:47 PM   #18010
cuervo72
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Originally Posted by MIJB#19 View Post
How many generations back do people need to live in a particular place to be considered 'immigrants' or to be considered living 'back home'?

I believe it depends on the immigrant.

(edit: what Radii said)
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Last edited by cuervo72 : 07-19-2019 at 07:48 PM.
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Old 07-19-2019, 08:56 PM   #18011
Edward64
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I'm not sure I get the Brits.

They "hold" the Iranian tanker captured at Gibraltar (at the behest of the US I assume). Why get into it vs letting the US Sixth fleet handle it when you know the Iranians would retaliate and you really can't do much about it.

Iran seizes British tanker in Strait of Hormuz - BBC News
Quote:
There will be "serious consequences" if Iran does not release a British-flagged tanker seized in the Gulf, Foreign Secretary Jeremy Hunt has said.

The Stena Impero's owners say they have been unable to contact their vessel, which had 23 personnel on board and was "heading north towards Iran".

It was surrounded by four vessels and a helicopter, Mr Hunt said.

A second British-owned Liberian-flagged tanker was boarded by armed guards but is now free to continue its journey.
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Old 07-19-2019, 10:03 PM   #18012
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Well the Iranian vessel the British seized was suspected of violating UN sanctions by trading with Syria.
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Old 07-19-2019, 10:42 PM   #18013
Edward64
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Originally Posted by NobodyHere View Post
Well the Iranian vessel the British seized was suspected of violating UN sanctions by trading with Syria.

So why do it when I presume the US Sixth Fleet could have done it just as easily? Why get involved when there is a high likely hood for retaliation that you can't counter?
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Old 07-20-2019, 10:48 AM   #18014
GrantDawg
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So the President once again re-tweets Katie Hopkins, a known racist who has called for a "final solution" for Muslims. Just another Saturday in the Fourth Reich.
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Old 07-20-2019, 07:41 PM   #18015
albionmoonlight
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Mark Sanford is willing to challenge Trump for president in 2020 - Vox

You know the GOP is afraid that it might not be in a position to do something about the deficit when it starts to talk about it.
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Old 07-20-2019, 07:57 PM   #18016
NobodyHere
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Like I said before, I wish more people would start talking about the deficit.
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Old 07-20-2019, 08:01 PM   #18017
JPhillips
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The GOP has to go deficit crazy just in case a Dem wins in 2020.
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Old 07-21-2019, 08:35 AM   #18018
Edward64
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A nice scorecard on what has happened under Trump. It doesn't say Trump did all these things or didn't, just more a factual recap of what has happened under his administration.

Trump's Numbers July 2019 Update - FactCheck.org

The one thing that caught my eye was increase in Manufacturing jobs. Never really paid attention to it vs the overall jobs picture.

Deficit obviously is a problem. Arguments can be made whether the GOP or Dems have more blame but think we can all agree here that there is shared blame from both sides.

Question to those following the Dem candidates right now. Which of the likely candidates will reduce the deficit or the growth of the deficit? I've read the candidates are not talking about it right now (because it's going to make them a target).
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Old 07-21-2019, 03:55 PM   #18019
Edward64
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Interesting poll from CBS.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/most-am...cbs-news-poll/
Quote:
A majority of Americans (59%) disagree with what the president said in his tweets last week about four Democratic congresswomen of color, including 44% who disagree strongly with what he said. But 40% of the country agrees with what Mr. Trump said. "'Progressive' Democratic Congresswomen" should "go back" to their countries, he tweeted last Sunday.

Quote:
Whites are split: 41% call them racist, and 41% do not. However, among African-Americans, 76% describe the tweets as racist, as do a 54%-majority of Hispanics. There are age differences too: people over 65 are three times as likely to strongly agree with what the president said than are Americans under 30. And younger Americans are more likely than older Americans to call the tweets racist.
:
Most Republicans feel the ideas expressed in the tweets were pro-American, and 70% feel they were not racist.

Not captured in the text but in the charts, 42% of Independents agree with his tweet.

It doesn't surprise me there is a divide between GOP and Dems but pretty surprised at the Independents who I assumed would lean more to the left. 40-42% range agreeing with Trump is pretty significant and supports that Trump is striking a chord.

I see the word racist around quite a bit here. Below is a definition FWIW.

What is Racism? | ADL
Quote:
Racism is the belief that a particular race is superior or inferior to another, that a person’s social and moral traits are predetermined by his or her inborn biological characteristics. Racial separatism is the belief, most of the time based on racism, that different races should remain segregated and apart from one another.
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Old 07-21-2019, 04:16 PM   #18020
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That's called the minority opinion. Generally, in a democracy, that part would be deemed, the losing side. That fact that it's truly a minority, not a minor plurality should be all that matters.
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Old 07-21-2019, 04:21 PM   #18021
Brian Swartz
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It is profoundly disturbing that 40% agreed with what he said. At the same time, what is and is not racist shouldn't be a matter of minority or any other kind of opinion. Something is either racist, or it isn't much like gravity either is or isn't a law of physics. Blurring the lines between 'racist' and 'insensitive/offense/stuff I just don't like or agree with' is not helpful.
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Old 07-21-2019, 04:30 PM   #18022
Atocep
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward64 View Post
It doesn't surprise me there is a divide between GOP and Dems but pretty surprised at the Independents who I assumed would lean more to the left. 40-42% range agreeing with Trump is pretty significant and supports that Trump is striking a chord.


Independents tend to lean right.

40-42% matches what has consistently been his approval ratings so it's not a surprise at all. The troubling part for trump is he continues to distance himself from voters he's going to need next November.

The GOP base is the easiest base to rally. It really doesn't take much effort and they're going to vote whether or not Trump continues to divide people. Yes, those 40-42% love him and he's going to kill it in red states but at some point he has to do something to expand his voting base though.

Last edited by Atocep : 07-21-2019 at 04:31 PM.
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Old 07-21-2019, 04:31 PM   #18023
Edward64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Swartz View Post
It is profoundly disturbing that 40% agreed with what he said. At the same time, what is and is not racist shouldn't be a matter of minority or any other kind of opinion. Something is either racist, or it isn't much like gravity either is or isn't a law of physics. Blurring the lines between 'racist' and 'insensitive/offense/stuff I just don't like or agree with' is not helpful.

I disagree, if we don't have a agreed definition of something, we'll go talking past each other or in circles. Always good IMO to level set.

Its like the definition of "Hot"

Last edited by Edward64 : 07-21-2019 at 04:32 PM.
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Old 07-21-2019, 04:46 PM   #18024
Edward64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atocep View Post
Independents tend to lean right.

Just one data point. If you take 13 / (13 + 17) = 32.5% so it seems Trumps tweet is supported by more Independents (42%) than would be expected.

Political Independents: Who They Are, What They Think | Pew Research Center
Quote:
An overwhelming majority of independents (81%) continue to “lean” toward either the Republican Party or the Democratic Party. Among the public overall, 17% are Democratic-leaning independents, while 13% lean toward the Republican Party. Just 7% of Americans decline to lean toward a party, a share that has changed little in recent years.
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Old 07-21-2019, 05:32 PM   #18025
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Swartz View Post
Nonsense. Here we have the last vestige of those without a good argument; presumption of motives and assassination of the same. I said the stonewalling of Garland was horribly wrong at the time, and I also said during the campaign that I wouldn't support Trump or Clinton for anything as important as dogcatcher. I stand by that assessment. We didn't have a campaign between a good candidate and a bad one; we had a campaign between two totally unacceptable ones. On that point I agree with the majority of America, the difference is in what I decided to do about it.


And what you decided to do about it was vote third party when we had one candidate clearly demonstrating through the entirety of the fucking campaign that he gave not one single solitary good goddamn about "defending our institutions" and then moaned and whined about it afterward.

You can say what you want about Hillary Clinton, but the reality was, she was never going to be in a position to have both houses of Congress falling over themselves to normalize whatever outrageous bullshit she might have tried to pull as President.

Donald Trump was never, in 2016, going to lose the House, and he ended up keeping the Senate, also.

Your third party vote was a direct revelation of just how much of a flaming bag of dog shit you gave about "defending our institutions."

"Yeah, he's mocking reporters and assaulting the integrity of judges on the basis of their skin color and bragging about sexual assault without consequences, but, I mean, Hillary Clinton. Just as bad. I dunno. Vote third party!"

Quote:
This isn't an either/or situation.

It really is.

Quote:
Both bear responsibility for how they have acted, and how they act now. I don't in any way absolve the GOP senate for ignoring Trump's misdeeds.

You gave them that absolution at the ballot box in 2016. You and every other "but her emails" turdblossom who ignored Donald Trump showing you exactly who he was and was going to continue to be voting for a third party because...what? Did you think Clinton was a shoo-in to win and you could safely cast a 'make myself feel superior to everybody else' protest vote? Did you just not give a single shit about what Trump would do with the power of the Presidency?

Quote:
As a Constitutional matter though, the House most definitely has a duty - and not just the Democrats in it but the Republicans as well. As a matter of process, the pressure will never be on the Senate to the degree it needs to be until they are required to go on the record that what Trump has done isn't impeachable, and they can't do that unless the House impeaches.

And the pressure STILL won't be on them after the House engages in their masturbatory political exercise you so desperately want them to, because McConnell has already indicated that he'll dispose of any impeachment trial as quickly and quietly as possible. The Senate map tilts toward Republican country in 2020, and Texas, Mississippi, et al are going to be sympathetic to the idea that any impeachment, no matter how deserved, is purely a political temper tantrum on the Democrats' part, and Republicans won't pay a political price for voting to acquit.
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Old 07-21-2019, 07:30 PM   #18026
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward64 View Post
Deficit obviously is a problem. Arguments can be made whether the GOP or Dems have more blame but think we can all agree here that there is shared blame from both sides.

Exactly how committed to "both-sides-ism" does one have to be to conclude that the growth in the deficit is a two-party outcome? For virtually all the time period being discussed, one party has held the executive branch, the Senate, and the House. And the only meaningful fiscal decision they have made in that time was a party-line tax cut acknowledged and understood to blow a monstrous hole in our revenue stream, adding massively to the deficit.

Very fine people on both sides, I guess, right?
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Old 07-21-2019, 09:25 PM   #18027
Edward64
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Originally Posted by QuikSand View Post
Exactly how committed to "both-sides-ism" does one have to be to conclude that the growth in the deficit is a two-party outcome? For virtually all the time period being discussed, one party has held the executive branch, the Senate, and the House. And the only meaningful fiscal decision they have made in that time was a party-line tax cut acknowledged and understood to blow a monstrous hole in our revenue stream, adding massively to the deficit.

Very fine people on both sides, I guess, right?

Fair enough. Lets do debt growth and go back to Reagan? Trump didn't get to $22T all by himself.
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Old 07-21-2019, 09:45 PM   #18028
bbgunn
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Didn't the deficit get reduced to zero during the Clinton administration? I remember there used to be this big digital billboard counting growth of the deficit in dollars in real time, and they had to take it down during the Clinton administration because the deficit went away.
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Old 07-21-2019, 10:00 PM   #18029
jct32
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Originally Posted by bbgunn View Post
Didn't the deficit get reduced to zero during the Clinton administration? I remember there used to be this big digital billboard counting growth of the deficit in dollars in real time, and they had to take it down during the Clinton administration because the deficit went away.

Nope, only the bank hater Andrew Jackson has ever paid off the debt.
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Old 07-21-2019, 10:00 PM   #18030
Edward64
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According to below, no deficit but debt grew. Read in another article that the debt in these nos. may not include SS as there is "political math" going on. So ultimately, worse than actually indicated below.

(We truly are screwed)

https://www.debtconsolidation.com/us-debt-presidents/
Quote:
Raised Taxes And Cut Spending
Only president since 1980 to not have a deficit
Decreased military spending following the Cold War
New taxes fueled by the Dot Com Bubble increased revenue
:
:
GDP And Debt
Increased debt from $4.4 trillion to $5.8 trillion
Though the debt grew by 32%, it was a lower percentage of GDP
The debt-to-GDP ratio decreased from 62% to 54%

Last edited by Edward64 : 07-21-2019 at 10:01 PM.
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Old 07-21-2019, 10:01 PM   #18031
NobodyHere
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Yes, but keep in mind that there was also a huge amount being paid into social security at the time.
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Old 07-21-2019, 10:02 PM   #18032
NobodyHere
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Originally Posted by jct32 View Post
Nope, only the bank hater Andrew Jackson has ever paid off the debt.

Debt and deficit are two different terms.
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Old 07-22-2019, 02:16 AM   #18033
Brian Swartz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SackAttack
Your third party vote was a direct revelation of just how much of a flaming bag of dog shit you gave about "defending our institutions."

"Yeah, he's mocking reporters and assaulting the integrity of judges on the basis of their skin color and bragging about sexual assault without consequences, but, I mean, Hillary Clinton. Just as bad. I dunno. Vote third party!"

I've already addressed the first part. I didn't say Hillary was just as bad. I do think she was close. And by the way, a family member of mine who voted Hillary and never thought twice about it also felt she was almost as bad as Trump. Someone who's been a solid D voter for decades. So it's not like I'm alone in thinking this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SackAttack
You gave them that absolution at the ballot box in 2016. You and every other "but her emails" turdblossom who ignored Donald Trump showing you exactly who he was and was going to continue to be

I gave them no absolution whatsoever. And now we've entered blatant lie territory, since my decision not to vote Hillary far predated the email controversy. I'm amused by the 'turdblossom' moniker though - never seen that turn of phrase there. I give you points for creativity!

Back to the point … giving them absolution would only make sense if I voted FOR them. I voted for nobody that to my knowledge supported the stonewall. I don't base my vote on who might control another branch of government, and I don't vote against candidates by throwing my support to the opposition. I vote for the best candidate I can find. I'll take a major-party one if a palatable option exists, but I don't even consider those other implications. That's tantamount to letting other people determine my vote, and I'm not going to do that.

I didn't at all ignore Trump's demonstrations, that's why I could never consider voting for him. What's implied here - I don't know if it's really what you mean but it seems to be - is that voting third party means I'm ok with Trump. And no, it doesn't mean that. It means that, as I said, both Trump and Clinton were utterly unqualified for the office in my opinion and I wasn't, and am not, willing to compromise on basic qualifications. Comparing the two never really entered much into who I would vote for, because neither reached the minimum bar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SackAttack
pressure STILL won't be on them after the House engages in their masturbatory political exercise you so desperately want them to, because McConnell has already indicated that he'll dispose of any impeachment trial as quickly and quietly as possible.

McConnell having to deal with the trial at all is the pressure being on them in the only real way it can be. When you term basic constitutional responsibilities as 'mastubatory political exercise', it's pretty clear where the difference in our thinking is and I doubt very much we'll resolve that difference here.
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Old 07-22-2019, 08:58 AM   #18034
Castlerock
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Swartz View Post
That's tantamount to letting other people determine my vote, and I'm not going to do that.

I do admire the principle but, given our first-past-the-post voting system, you have effectively decided not to vote and let other people determine the winner.
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Old 07-22-2019, 11:05 AM   #18035
PilotMan
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Im pretty sure that Cortez and Cruz are either cut from the same cloth or two sides of the same coin.
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Old 07-22-2019, 11:49 AM   #18036
molson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbgunn View Post
Didn't the deficit get reduced to zero during the Clinton administration? I remember there used to be this big digital billboard counting growth of the deficit in dollars in real time, and they had to take it down during the Clinton administration because the deficit went away.

There were budget surpluses during the Clinton years. Booming economy plus higher taxes on the wealthy. More money was coming in than going out, which resulted in the national debt actually going down relative to the GDP. That's the only time that's ever happened since the 60s (and the surplus was pretty minuscule back then, relatively to the 90s). The overall DEBT though, that's insurmountable. That will be there until the country ends or until we pull a Zimbabwe and just print the money or drop off some of the zeroes off of the debt by official decree.

Last edited by molson : 07-22-2019 at 11:58 AM.
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Old 07-22-2019, 01:29 PM   #18037
Radii
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SackAttack View Post
And what you decided to do about it was vote third party when we had one candidate clearly demonstrating through the entirety of the fucking campaign that he gave not one single solitary good goddamn about "defending our institutions" and then moaned and whined about it afterward.

When someone says they're looking at voting democrat this election, spending many lengthy posts to attack every action and position they've taken to the point of attacking their character seems at the very least counterproductive.

It feels like you're demanding contrition that every political action they've ever taken was wrong and finally they see the light and 100% agree with you, and if they can't do that then they should fuck off and just go vote Trump.


You're not going to win everyone over. Take the small victories, welcome those who are frustrated with the horribleness that is trump even if there are many many things that you'll still disagree on.
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Old 07-22-2019, 01:48 PM   #18038
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Originally Posted by Radii View Post
It feels like you're demanding contrition that every political action they've ever taken was wrong and finally they see the light and 100% agree with you, and if they can't do that then they should fuck off and just go vote Trump.

No, I'm yelling at him for insisting that Democrats HAVE to impeach Trump despite the fact that the only reason to do it is public masturbation.

Republicans have shown us who THEY are for the last three years, and who they are is "willing to hug an unindicted co-conspirator as closely as possible in the name of survival politics, no matter what he's done."

Insisting that this is somehow the Democratic Party's cross to bear, while ignoring the Republican intransigence that means Trump could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and not suffer the consequences, is asinine.

The Democrats' ability to put any kind of leash on Trump in the event of his re-election is dependent on their keeping control of the House, or flipping the Senate.

Impeachment, while richly deserved, is a doomed exercise. Republicans have spent months telling their base that it's all a great big nothingburger and Trump hasn't done a single teensy tiny thing wrong and if Democrats impeach it's just a giant temper tantrum because they stand by their President.

They've laid the foundation to attack any such effort as a nakedly political exercise, and if the House somehow does send articles of impeachment to the Senate, that will be the basis for McConnell sweeping it under the rug. It does precisely as much to "defend our institutions," given that state of affairs, as impeaching Clinton for lying under oath about a blowjob.

The Union wasn't any more secure for having wagged that finger at Clinton than it would be for McConnell saying "nothing to see here; who's next on the judicial nominations docket?"

But that's a hill Brian wants to die on. "The Democrats need to show they have a spine in a way that's certainly useless and potentially poisonous to their ability to leash Trump if he manages to get re-elected!"

And I'm supposed to give a shit that somebody who can't see that is thinking about voting Democratic when three years ago, he looked at Donald Trump telling us exactly who he was and would continue to be, and said "meh, I'm gonna vote third party"?

That's rich.

That's on a level with "if we just give the wealthiest a trillion dollar tax cut, poverty will disappear!"
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Old 07-22-2019, 02:23 PM   #18039
albionmoonlight
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This is not directed toward any one event. Just something I'm seeing more and more.

As a Democrat, I'm getting tired of moderate conservatives, having lost the GOP to the MAGAs, telling the Democratic party to become a moderate conservative party so that they will have a place to feel comfortable.

I would much rather moderate conservatives focus their energy on expelling the MAGAs and turning the GOP back into a moderate conservative party.
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Old 07-22-2019, 02:35 PM   #18040
Radii
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Originally Posted by SackAttack View Post
No, I'm yelling at him for insisting that Democrats HAVE to impeach Trump despite the fact that the only reason to do it is public masturbation.

Lots of democrats believe that too. I've thought that the discussion on the pros and cons of impeachment here over the last week or so has been good, with people on the left and right all having different opinions, its not a party line thing at all, and that's made the conversation pretty fascinating for me. I get that you have strong opinions on your reasoning for feeling the way you do. And it would be frustrating to see someone who strongly dislikes trump choose to not vote for a democrat over, well pretty much anything.

But what's the end result that you want here? Knowing that you are right and have told the world you are right, damn the consequences? Or in taking any action you can take so that Donald Trump doesn't win re-election? Because what you're doing right now is aggressive as hell and might severely alienate many against all of your passionate beliefs.

There's a ton of common ground to be found. Making a case for you believe in it certainly important, but you've done that. Is this really the line you want to draw for making such strong judgement about someone else to the point that if you are partially responsible for someone not voting Democrat despite all of their frustration with trump - well that's ok because fuck them?

Last edited by Radii : 07-22-2019 at 02:37 PM.
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Old 07-22-2019, 02:39 PM   #18041
ISiddiqui
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Originally Posted by albionmoonlight View Post
This is not directed toward any one event. Just something I'm seeing more and more.

As a Democrat, I'm getting tired of moderate conservatives, having lost the GOP to the MAGAs, telling the Democratic party to become a moderate conservative party so that they will have a place to feel comfortable.

I would much rather moderate conservatives focus their energy on expelling the MAGAs and turning the GOP back into a moderate conservative party.

Or Hell, do as the British did and start their own centrist party (Liberal Democrats won't work as party name here though ).
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Old 07-22-2019, 02:49 PM   #18042
Chief Rum
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This thread reminds me that SackAttack is a very eloquent and intelligent poster, with well-defined arguments.

It also reminds me that he can be a tremendous turdblossom at times.
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Old 07-22-2019, 02:51 PM   #18043
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Or Hell, do as the British did and start their own centrist party (Liberal Democrats won't work as party name here though ).

I would love to do exactly that. Unfortunately, our system always ends up coming down to two parties with the way it is set up.
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Old 07-22-2019, 03:00 PM   #18044
ISiddiqui
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Originally Posted by Chief Rum View Post
I would love to do exactly that. Unfortunately, our system always ends up coming down to two parties with the way it is set up.

The British set up is also first past the post, with similar issues. The UK is a Parliamentary system, but that's why you set up coalitions (as the Lib Dems did a few years back - which kind of hurt them in the end though)
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Old 07-22-2019, 03:09 PM   #18045
tarcone
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Healthcare has to be fixed. It is ridiculous that the USA is the wealthiest nation in the world and has a terrible healthcare system that, I say, is fiscally punitive. We spend x amount of dollars throughout our entire working lives only to be hammered by out of control costs because medicare doesnt do what it should do.
The price of medications is stupid. Life saving medications are out of reach for to many. Profits are more important than health.

I am very worried about retiring due to our health care system. Our weak politicians are more concerned about PR than real fixes.

Obamacare did not go near far enough. Fix it Trump or whomever is next up.
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Old 07-22-2019, 03:52 PM   #18046
Thomkal
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So the mystery surrounding Pence's removal from Air Force Two before a trip to NH has finally been revealed: He was going to meet with people fighting the opioid epidemic in NH, the only problem? One of the people he was there to meet was about to be busted by the DEA for you guessed it, opioid interstate distribution:


Behind Pence’s Air Force Two cancellation: A drug dealer - POLITICO
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Old 07-22-2019, 05:05 PM   #18047
Thomkal
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Trump says he could end the 18 year long afghan war in 10 days, wipe Afghanistan off the map and kill 10,000,000 but he doesn't want to go that route. How fortunate for us.
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Old 07-22-2019, 06:23 PM   #18048
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We deserve a president who could wipe Afghanistan off the map in 9 days or less.
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Old 07-22-2019, 06:57 PM   #18049
NobodyHere
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It warms my cockles that both parties can agree one one thing: Spend moar money.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/22/us-d...s-source.html/
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Old 07-22-2019, 08:36 PM   #18050
JPhillips
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Dear God Dems will never learn. They are agreeing to let Trump get to the election without any debt limit problems and also agreeing that in the first year of a Dem presidency the GOP will be able to hold the economy hostage again.

And if that weren't enough, Blumenthal is talking about reinstating the blue slip rule the next time Dems control the senate. The same rule that the GOP has eliminated the last two times they controlled the senate.
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