2013 College Football Offseason thread

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Matthean

As the ESPN reporter who broke it was talking about, you see NFL players who make $15 million a year getting extra cash for signatures.

Sure, but it's just one more component that doesn't make a whole lot of sense about this allegation.

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Sure, but it's just one more component that doesn't make a whole lot of sense about this allegation.

What I got from the story was the reporter literally saw the signed items officially marked and numbered in the 900s. He said it would be one thing if there were a few of them, not numbered, or low numbered but none of that happened.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Honestly, reading the story, I think he may have just fucked up big time.

[cartman]

But molson assured us that this is just an overzealous press hounding him, and he's just a normal college student doing normal college student things.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by cartman

But molson assured us that this is just an overzealous press hounding him, and he's just a normal college student doing normal college student things.

If you read back, I've been on that same train myself.

This one though ... well, it sounds just dumb enough to be true.

[dawgfan]

That's just it - it's so incredibly stupid that it's hard to believe. I guess maybe there's an angle I'm just not seeing...

[molson]

Originally Posted by cartman

But molson assured us that this is just an overzealous press hounding him, and he's just a normal college student doing normal college student things.

I said that I didn't think that partying in college is huge deal, or that going to a party in ENEMY TERRITORY!! is a sin worthy of NFL teams taking a pass on him. So I don't know what your point is when it comes to whatever this autograph thing is. I'm sorry to have offended you so much that you're still on this, but sorry, I don't give a shit that a guy drinks a lot and is crazy in college. Of course, he's not on some team that plays against the team I'm some wacky superfan of, so I maybe just don't have the right perspective.

Edit: I do love that the NCAA tracks ebay for athlete autographs, and that "Independent merchandiser Aggieland Outfitters recently auctioned off six helmets signed by Manziel and Texas A&M's other Heisman Trophy winner, John David Crow, for $81,000." Amateur athletics.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Izulde

Title IX is going to be the big stumbling block to all of this in general (paying players) I think.

I'm not so sure about that just because of how vaguely Title IX is written and that this has never come up. I'm sure there's arguments that could be made either way, and that a settlement could probably be reached. But if it's so simple that Title IX prevents schools from paying players, I'm surprised nobody's ever sued colleges for paying star players, which they do. There's enough dirt out there, and a civil plaintiff might have more power to dig up dirt in the discovery process than the NCAA would as a voluntary investigative body.

Of course, on the other hand, if we're just talking about opening things up for independent boosters using their own money, or for players having the freedom to make their own deals with video game companies (or autograph/memorabilia vendors), then Title IX maybe would probably have no application.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by molson

I said that I didn't think that partying in college is huge deal, or that going to a party in ENEMY TERRITORY!! is a sin worthy of NFL teams taking a pass on him. So I don't know what your point is when it comes to whatever this autograph thing is. I'm sorry to have offended you so much that you're still on this, but sorry, I don't give a shit that a guy drinks a lot and is crazy in college. Of course, he's not on some team that plays against the team I'm some wacky superfan of, so I maybe just don't have the right perspective.

Edit: I do love that the NCAA tracks ebay for athlete autographs, and that "Independent merchandiser Aggieland Outfitters recently auctioned off six helmets signed by Manziel and Texas A&M's other Heisman Trophy winner, John David Crow, for $81,000." Amateur athletics.

Taken as a series of isolated events, sure they don't seem like a big deal. But when you step back and take look at the whole picture, a lot of people were waiting for the other shoe to drop, and this autograph signing deal sure looks like a Shaq-sized shoe.

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by molson

I'm not so sure about that just because of how vaguely Title IX is written and that this has never come up. I'm sure there's arguments that could be made either way, and that a settlement could probably be reached. But if it's so simple that Title IX prevents schools from paying players, I'm surprised nobody's ever sued colleges for paying star players, which they do. There's enough dirt out there, and a civil plaintiff might have more power to dig up dirt in the discovery process than the NCAA would as a voluntary investigative body.

Of course, on the other hand, if we're just talking about opening things up for independent boosters using their own money, or for players having the freedom to make their own deals with video game companies (or autograph/memorabilia vendors), then Title IX maybe would probably have no application.

I think the key factor to this is, as you suggest, what ultimately O'Bannon and others turns into - if it's paying players directly from university funds, then Title IX comes into play.

If it's players becoming independent individual actors as in your last paragraph, then I don't think Title IX applies at all. I'll admit I didn't think about that last one as a possible outcome, though I could see it happening, now that I think about it, given the concerns of how direct pay-to-play would impact universities across the country.

[molson]

Originally Posted by cartman

Taken as a series of isolated events, sure they don't seem like a big deal. But when you step back and take look at the whole picture, a lot of people were waiting for the other shoe to drop, and this autograph signing deal sure looks like a Shaq-sized shoe.

I think it's possible to party in college without also getting caught signing a lot of autographs for money. Almost every other player in history has done it. And whatever, nobody was predicting autograph scandals last week, it was all rage over the drinking and perceived disrespect to rival teams.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by molson

I think it's possible to party in college without also getting caught signing a lot of autographs for money. Almost every other player in history has done it. And whatever, nobody was predicting autograph scandals last week, it was all rage over the drinking and perceived disrespect to rival teams.

There were rumblings about something really big coming out, but they were just whispered rumors. Now it is apparent there was something to those rumors.

[molson]

Originally Posted by cartman

There were rumblings about something really big coming out, but they were just whispered rumors. Now it is apparent there was something to those rumors.

I didn't read any rumors here, I just responded to the proclamations that he was throwing away his career by partying, and that response is what you're attacking me on days later. I thought the whole thing was a little overboard based on what was reported, it just all sounded like irrational hate to me, coming mostly from superfans of rival teams, or fans of teams that were jealous that a QB of that stature was with a team that hadn't been a top power for a while, and some general backlash towards his fame generally. Maybe there was more insider information that everyone was basing their hate one that they just weren't sharing, I don't know. But nobody was connecting those things here in the manner you're attacking me for not recognizing.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by cartman

There were rumblings about something really big coming out, but they were just whispered rumors.

But wasn't that mostly based on his dad's comment about (paraphrasing) how badly it could all unravel?

[cartman]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

But wasn't that mostly based on his dad's comment about (paraphrasing) how badly it could all unravel?

That, along with the surprising amount of autographed and authenticated items that had been popping up on eBay over the summer.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by molson

I didn't read any rumors here, I just responded to the proclamations that he was throwing away his career by partying, and that response is what you're attacking me on days later.

Attacking you on? Really?

And I didn't post those rumors here, because I don't get into that side of things like some others on here do.

[molson]

Originally Posted by cartman

Attacking you on? Really?

And I didn't post those rumors here, because I don't get into that side of things like some others on here do.

Its obviously something that stuck with you for whatever reason. Though I'm still trying to figure out the connection to my point about the reaction to the drinking and a story about autographs.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by molson

Its obviously something that stuck with you for whatever reason. Though I'm still trying to figure out the connection to my point about the reaction to the drinking and a story about autographs.

Again, how is mentioning a post you made on the previous page of this thread somehow an unreasonable thing to remember, and how it is attacking you? Why so sensitive? I was simply making light of how you brushed off the previous incidents as being typical of a college kid. Nothing more, nothing less. And definitely not a personal attack. Geez.

[molson]

Originally Posted by cartman

Again, how is mentioning a post you made on the previous page of this thread somehow an unreasonable thing to remember, and how it is attacking you? Why so sensitive? I was simply making light of how you brushed off the previous incidents as being typical of a college kid. Nothing more, nothing less. And definitely not a personal attack. Geez.

I didn't say it was a personal attack. It was obtuse, but not personal. He can sign a million autographs for $10 million dollars and it won't convince me that drinking in Austin, or partying in college generally is some crazy newsworthy thing that deserves media and fan vilification. I do get annoyed at how much money people make off this kid and the degree of celebrity he has and he's vilified for drinking (and going to NBA games, and hanging out with rappers). If he signed autographs for money, that was against the rules and the 2019 Texas A&M recruiting class will probably lose a scholarship or something, but it's hard to have moral outrage over even that when you see the money and tv deals this guy and others generate. It's crazy. Maybe he's got a self-destructive streak and he wants out of college, I certainly can't blame him. Why is this report coming out now if the signings took place in January? I'm not saying he didn't sign stuff, but obviously there's a conscious effort as far as timing here, following the SI article and the stuff last week. It's a continuing storyline that people are passionately invested in, so I understand the media angle of grouping things together, but I wonder if there's an NCAA timing strategy as well as far as when stuff gets leaked. I think the NCAA and the SEC enjoy the hysteria. I think if the players are the main public villains, it's easier for the conferences for the NCAA to sign multi-billion dollar TV and licensing contracts and whine about how difficult the financial situation in amateur athletics is.

[panerd]

If true, two games. The NCAA will do nothing to mess with A&M/Alabama.

I'm leaning towards the report not being accurate but it being added to the laundry list of things the media has a hard-on about nailing this guy on.

[HomerSimpson98]

I may eat these words in the near future, but I agree with dawgfan. I don't see how the hell any of this crap is true. He isn't that stupid and he sure doesn't need the money. Oh, and impeccable f'ng timing on this - the day before practice starts? If I'm a conspiracy theorist, I'd be pretty busy in the next day or two.

[albionmoonlight]

I don't know or care the truth of the story.

But, if we are speculating based on circumstances, I would think that the fact that his family has money makes it more likely that the story is true. If a guy is dirt poor, he has a real incentive to jump through every hoop and play by every stupid rule that the NCAA or the Draft Combine, or the NFL throws at him. At least until he gets that first big check. The downside risk of failure is pretty bad.

But a guy with money to fall back on might be more likely to think "Fuck it. It's my signature, and if anyone gets paid for it, it will be me. And if the NCAA catches me, so what? It's a stupid rule, and I'm not going to follow it. If I get kicked off the team, I'll just work out with personal trainers until I am able to get drafted."

A rough analogy might be how it is only guys with something to fall back on (Elway with baseball. Eil with the Manning money) who refuse to play by the rules of the draft.

Again, I have no idea what is true. And I care even less. But it would be kind of cool to see a high profile college athlete thumb his nose at the NCAA that hard.

[MrBug708]

UCLA is doing something unconventional by going to San Diego and spending 2 1/2 days of training camp with the Navy Seals. It'll be 24 hour style training in a program designed by Mora and the Seals.

[Logan]

So now the story is that there's another broker who claimed Manziel got money for autographs...but it was his friend who asked for money from the guy AFTER he had already signed items.

He's not going to miss a snap.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Logan

So now the story is that there's another broker who claimed Manziel got money for autographs...but it was his friend who asked for money from the guy AFTER he had already signed items.

He's not going to miss a snap.

That was a different signing session.

[Jon]

I heard the story is that his friend told the broker that Manziel said he wasn't doing autographs for free anymore, not that he wanted money for stuff already signed.

And I think this was different than the Miami autograph signings.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by cartman

That was a different signing session.

I'm not sure if I'm misinterpreting...this is where I got that from.

ESPN reports second autograph broker said he DIDN"T pay Manziel cash for signing but claims JMs buddy later asked for $.

— Bruce Feldman (@BFeldmanCBS) August 5, 2013

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by Logan

So now the story is that there's another broker who claimed Manziel got money for autographs...but it was his friend who asked for money from the guy AFTER he had already signed items.

He's not going to miss a snap.

That sounds more believable in the sense that Manziel probably figured he found a nice loophole to get paid

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Logan

I'm not sure if I'm misinterpreting...this is where I got that from.

ESPN reports second autograph broker said he DIDN"T pay Manziel cash for signing but claims JMs buddy later asked for $.

— Bruce Feldman (@BFeldmanCBS) August 5, 2013

That was supposedly from a signing session right before the Alabama game.

Broker says Johnny Manziel friend halted free autograph signings - ESPN

A prominent autograph broker on eBay, based in the Southeast, said that Nate Fitch -- Johnny Manziel's friend and personal assistant -- approached him last season to let him know that Manziel would no longer be signing autographs for him without compensation, according to ESPN's Joe Schad.

The broker, who spoke to Schad under the condition of anonymity, said that Manziel signed about 50 items for him at the Texas A&M team hotel the night before the Nov. 10 Texas A&M at Alabama game. The person said that Manziel then signed about 200 more items a few days later, with the broker saying he did not compensate Manziel for either of those sessions.

[JPhillips]

With Newtown the NCAA made it clear that as long as the athlete recieves the cash from a second party, things are cool.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

With Newtown the NCAA made it clear that as long as the athlete recieves the cash from a second party, things are cool.

Agreed, which I kind of enjoy. The NCAA is so corrupt and rudderless, I like to see when stuff gets thrown back in their face. Go ahead and nail some team for losing scholarships because they flew a kid home to see his dying mom, but taking money for autos is fine as long as there is a middle man.

Also, if I am Texas A&M, why am I even worrying about whether to play Johnny football? Here are the scenarios:

1. We play him and we make a BCS bowl game and earn the school and conference a ton of money. Later he gets cleared.
2. We play him and we make a BCS bowl game and earn the school and conference a ton of money. Later they decide he broke rules and took money. So, we forfeit the bowl title, some wins and lose a handful of scholarships for 2-3 seasons. We still get to cash the check from the BCS game...
3. We stupidly sit him, go 7-5 and end up at a marginal bowl game. But, hey, we avoid the 30% risk that we lose scholarships or forfeit that BCS bowl game we didn't go to... err wait.

I can't believe anyone takes ESPN seriously when these guys go "Well, A&M has a tough call on whether to play Manziel this season." Uh, no they don't. Whether he is found guilty or not, they still get to cash all their endorsement, jersey sales, National TV and BCS bowl game checks.

[Logan]

Star tailback Jeremy Hill is back at LSU, but don't blame Les Miles - CBSSports

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Logan

Star tailback Jeremy Hill is back at LSU, but don't blame Les Miles - CBSSports

Tells you all you need to know about the SEC and college football as a whole right there. I get Miles is a bit quirky, but that is terrible judgement on his part.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Logan

Star tailback Jeremy Hill is back at LSU, but don't blame Les Miles - CBSSports

Now this is something worth vilifying a guy over. Except I bet he'll get a bunch of game balls and give inspirational locker room speeches about "overcoming obstacles" this season.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Logan

Star tailback Jeremy Hill is back at LSU, but don't blame Les Miles - CBSSports

Welcome to big time college football, where winning and making money is all that matters.

[Dr. Sak]

For those interested in reading about the new rules:

http://www.dfoa.com/attachments/arti..._Rule_Book.pdf

[Tigercat]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Tells you all you need to know about the SEC and college football as a whole right there. I get Miles is a bit quirky, but that is terrible judgement on his part.

Keep in mind he kicked more important players (Ryan Perrilloux, Honey Badger) off the team who weren't caught doing something bad on camera, and who didn't have the shock value of crime that could be called sexual assault. In other words in instances where it was harder to justify kicking them off, and in instances where it hurt the team more.

Hill did two awful things. But two things that hundreds of athletes out there in the world will do this year. 1) Have sexual relations with a girl younger than him 2) Let alcohol make him "brave" enough to jump into a fight.

Now, the girl was only 14 and it was at school. And the he entered the fight by sucker punching a guy. Both actions are quite indefensible. But they are two actions that Joe Football at any school could easily find themselves in the middle of. As much as he was an asshole in both instances, we don't deal with Hill on a day to day basis like Miles and his teammates do. College teams are full of pricks, good guys, and guys who are a little bit of both.

I brought up Badger and Ryan P. because it shows that Miles isn't afraid to kick a guy off the team if he believes a pattern of behavior shows that dismissal is the best thing for the player and those around him. And that does not count wins and losses, otherwise Ryan Perrilloux's string of stupidity would not be nearly enough to kick him off a defending national title team in favor of a walkon backup QB from Harvard. And God knows how far you would go to keep a Heisman finalist on your team if all he is doing is testing positive for pot.

[Logan]

So why in this case did he feel that the appropriate move was to have his players decide if Hill should stay/go? Did he do that for the Perrilloux/HB?

That sounds like something you would do if a kid walked off the practice field after being pissed he wasn't getting enough reps.

[Tigercat]

I think Miles was just really on the fence. It was a second asshole offense, but by a guy that Miles seems to think can be a good guy in his actions in the long term. So he passed the buck to what Les Miles considers as an entity bigger than him, the team.

Personally, I think if he was that much on the fence, he should have just let Hill go. Both Badger and Perrilloux seemed to straighten their personal life out after they got a kick in the rear, maybe it would have helped Hill too?

Plus, LSU players getting in fights with other drunken idiots needs to stop.

[molson]

How do you even get probation for getting a blowjob from a child?

[Tigercat]

Circumstances perhaps, wouldn't be the first high school senior to have relations with a high school freshman. Of course, many have done so without consequences, and some have gone to jail for it.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Tigercat

I think Miles was just really on the fence. It was a second asshole offense, but by a guy that Miles seems to think can be a good guy in his actions in the long term.
.

Forcing a 14 year old girl to blow you is an "asshole offense" by someone that can be a "good guy?"

priorities man

[molson]

Originally Posted by Tigercat

Circumstances perhaps, wouldn't be the first high school senior to have relations with a high school freshman. Of course, many have done so without consequences, and some have gone to jail for it.

There's lots of people in prison for crimes even though they "weren't the first one" to do it. That's not a mitigating factor.

Edit: But to play that game, do we know how many people with child sex offense convictions are on college football teams? I can't imagine a lot, because most are going to be in prison during their football-playing years.

[Tigercat]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Forcing a 14 year old girl to blow you is an "asshole offense" by someone that can be a "good guy?"

priorities man

I don't know for sure what happened at the school, but the charges aren't "forced." That's Doyle's words. I don't blame someone who thinks that Hill should be kicked off a college football team, but Doyle's spin on assuming who Hill is is some serious crap journalism. The specific definition of carnal knowledge is "with consent." Certainly, if Hill really did fully force the girl who had no intention on doing the act, he is a horrible human being.

[Tigercat]

Originally Posted by molson

Edit: But to play that game, do we know how many people with child sex offense convictions are on college football teams? I can't imagine a lot, because most are going to be in prison during their football-playing years.

And how many 18 year old football players do you think have had sex with someone 16 and under as high school seniors? Because, hey, we are talking right and wrong right? Not just did you get convicted. Priorities right? Because this is clearly black and white.....

And that is my only real point about the whole thing, it isn't black and white. And even if it is, we don't know enough to know if it is. Although Doyle certainly thinks he does. Jeremy Hill may be a horrible, horrible human being. But if one of the best adults I know today came up to me and said "Hey as a stupid kid I once had sex with a girl way younger than me and later sucker punched a guy while I was drinking." I wouldn't necessarily think here is a guy that was once all bad.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Tigercat

And how many 18 year old football players do you think have had sex with someone 16 and under as high school seniors? Because, hey, we are talking right and wrong right? Not just did you get convicted. Priorities right? Because this is clearly black and white.....

And that is my only real point about the whole thing, it isn't black and white. And even if it is, we don't know enough to know if it is. Although Doyle certainly thinks he does. Jeremy Hill may be a horrible, horrible human being. But if one of the best adults I know today came up to me and said "Hey as a stupid kid I once had sex with a girl way younger than me and later sucker punched a guy while I was drinking." I wouldn't necessarily think here is a guy that was once all bad.

Child sex offense and battery convictions are black and white. You either have them or you don't. And if you have them, you're eligible to play football for LSU (subject to a vote by your peers, apparently) And I imagine his status as a football player helped him with sentencing as well.

Edit: I just don't get why LSU or their fans would go to bat for a guy like that. RBs are a dime a dozen when you're that big a football power. Aside from the moral angle and the example you set for other players and students, you open yourself up to big-time liability if and when he resumes his criminal activity within the context of the university or the athletic program.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Tigercat

And how many 18 year old football players do you think have had sex with someone 16 and under as high school seniors? Because, hey, we are talking right and wrong right? Not just did you get convicted. Priorities right? Because this is clearly black and white.....

And that is my only real point about the whole thing, it isn't black and white. And even if it is, we don't know enough to know if it is. Although Doyle certainly thinks he does. Jeremy Hill may be a horrible, horrible human being. But if one of the best adults I know today came up to me and said "Hey as a stupid kid I once had sex with a girl way younger than me and later sucker punched a guy while I was drinking." I wouldn't necessarily think here is a guy that was once all bad.

Even if I agree with every one of your points (I don't, FYI), it really is a great idea for the leader of the program to pass this decision on to a bunch of 18-22 year olds? They know the intricacies of the laws and can decide if punishments should be dished out?

Your "bigger entity than Miles" statement is a crock of shit.

[Logan]

How ironic that "Official Store of NCAA" sells Johnny Football shirts: http://t.co/A9fats88NI Or, a coincidence it's No. 2 with "Football"?

— Jay Bilas (@JayBilas) August 6, 2013

[finketr]

Originally Posted by Tigercat

College teams are full of pricks, good guys, and guys who are a little bit of both.

Everyday life is full of al sorts of people...

Now addressing the "Don't blame Les Miles" aspect of the article: If he felt that Hill shouldn't be on the team he wouldn't be. The only justification for the vote is if your team feels it would be too much of a distraction or something along those lines.

[Tigercat]

Originally Posted by Logan

Even if I agree with every one of your points (I don't, FYI), it really is a great idea for the leader of the program to pass this decision on to a bunch of 18-22 year olds? They know the intricacies of the laws and can decide if punishments should be dished out?

Your "bigger entity than Miles" statement is a crock of shit.

First paragraph, I agree.

Second paragraph, that's how Miles sees it. It's his second family. He's the dad, but the family is bigger than him.