*World Cup Game Discussion Thread* (SPOILERS)

[ISiddiqui]

Well, I'll put it this way, I consider Zidane's creativity and vision on the field to be a far greater than you do. To the point where it offsets (and in many cases goes beyond) his lack of goal scoring. It's not scientific, but the fact that he has been rated so highly (and won FIFA Player of the Year 3 times) without the high level of scoring usually attributed to other all-time forwards and midfielders shows that his other qualities were otherworldly, or at least they were considered to be such by the people who vote on such things.

So I'm not sure that you look at Charlton or Guillet as attacking MF depending on the role you want your attacking MF to play. Personally, I'd pick Zidane anyday over both of them, because I consider that creative spark to be that great in Zidane.

[Darkiller]

Originally Posted by Katon

Yes, but everyone in the top twenty of the UEFA vote was an amazing player with an insane resume, and there are quite a few after that. What singles Zidane out?

Well, France is the only team to ever win the World Cup and the Euro Cup back-to-back, and Zidane was the marquee player each time.
That, ALONE, singles him out over any other player since these are the two most prestigious stages football can offer and Zidane has both trophees to show for.

[Darkiller]

dola...

and Sunday, he came a penalty kick away from adding a 2nd World Cup to his resume.
Say what you want, there are very, very few all time greats who can argue to have such a resume.

[Critch]

Originally Posted by Darkiller

Well, France is the only team to ever win the World Cup and the Euro Cup back-to-back, and Zidane was the marquee player each time.
That, ALONE, singles him out over any other player since these are the two most prestigious stages football can offer and Zidane has both trophees to show for.

West Germany won the Euro Cup in 1972 and the World Cup in 1974. So Sepp Maier, Franz Beckenbauer, Gerd Muller, Paul Breitner, Uli Hoeness and a few others have done it too.

[Darkiller]

Yep, that was 30 years before Zidane's achievements.
a lifetime...
And the only player from those 72/74 German squads to be able to rival Zidane in an all-time ranking is Beckenbauer. That means Ziz is indeed in extreme elite company in regards to those achievements.

All I have been saying ever since we started this discussion -and despite the fact that I am clearly biased-- is that Zizou is the best player of his era/generation.

(NB: France is the only team to make it back-to-back in this order : WC than Euro. And most "experts" will tell you that winning the Euro is tougher than winning the WC. That was a fantastic achievement to back up a World Cup title by a Euro Championship. And France remains, to date, the only team to have done so.)

[Katon]

Originally Posted by Darkiller

Well, France is the only team to ever win the World Cup and the Euro Cup back-to-back, and Zidane was the marquee player each time.
That, ALONE, singles him out over any other player since these are the two most prestigious stages football can offer and Zidane has both trophees to show for.

Zidane might have been the marquee player in '98, but that doesn't mean he deserves any major credit for it. The team got itself to the final without him doing a single thing to help (honestly, name one contribution before the final? apart from getting sent off against the Saudis?), and while his goals obviously were the main reason France beat Brazil even there the defence keeping a clean sheet was very important. The '98 win was because France got a historical defence and home-field advantage at the same time, not because Zidane was brilliant or even good. He wasn't one of that team's five most important players.

2000 I'll give you, but while Zidane was the best player there he was leading a really spectacular array of talent. Most of the players in the top 15-20 have had at least one major tournament like that. A couple have had significantly better tournaments - Platini in '84 for instance.

2006 was discussed at some length upthread, but again France was running more on its defence than its offence. Zidane's international career has come at the same time as two of the greatest pure DMs ever - Deschamps and Makelele - and a whole host of excellent defenders. Desailly and Thuram, of course, but also Blanc and Lizarazu and Gallas. 2000 was the only time when the offence was really at the same level.

Zidane's World Cup history doesn't suggest that he can carry a team to the semis/final the way Eusebio did in '66 or Maradona did in '86 or Ballack in '02 (not that Ballack's on the same level as Zidane, but he's been better at the World Cup). It suggests that if you play him with a great defensive midfielder and in front of an extraordinary defence he'll beat Brazil for you and take some nice penalties. That's nice, but it's not a very good argument for why someone should be in the top ten or twenty of all time. Zidane's club form is the argument for him. Not his international form.

[Critch]

Originally Posted by Darkiller

Yep, that was 30 years before Zidane's achievements.
a lifetime...

All I have been saying ever since we started this discussion -and despite the fact that I am clearly biased-- is that Zizou is the best player of his era.

You said that France were the only team ever to do it, I was pointing out that they aren't.

Edit - And is the European Championship really more difficult to win? I'd say any international competition that doesn't have Brazil and Argentina in it is instantly easier to win than one that does have them.

[Katon]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Well, I'll put it this way, I consider Zidane's creativity and vision on the field to be a far greater than you do. To the point where it offsets (and in many cases goes beyond) his lack of goal scoring. It's not scientific, but the fact that he has been rated so highly (and won FIFA Player of the Year 3 times) without the high level of scoring usually attributed to other all-time forwards and midfielders shows that his other qualities were otherworldly, or at least they were considered to be such by the people who vote on such things.

So I'm not sure that you look at Charlton or Guillet as attacking MF depending on the role you want your attacking MF to play. Personally, I'd pick Zidane anyday over both of them, because I consider that creative spark to be that great in Zidane.

Otherworldly compared to contemporary players isn't quite the same as otherworldly compared to all-time greats. If you look over the course of history then nearly every attacking MF in the discussion has wonderful vision and creativity, and the ones at the Platini level have the same otherworldy vision. And they score a lot more. So Zidane's the best AM of his era, but pretty clearly not the best ever - which means that when you're comparing him to players who are at the very top of their positions, he comes off poorly.

He's an incredibly popular player, yes, but there are several factors contributing to that which aren't directly related to his quality as a player. For one, he tends to save his goals for the finals of tournaments - the '98 World Cup and the '02 CL spring to mind. For another, he's one of the most enjoyable players in recent memory to watch. For a third, Real put on a major press blitz when they signed him - part of the whole "Galactico" strategy. So most polls will overrate his performance slightly because he does have a lot of non-performance-related factors enhancing his visibility.

That's not to say he doesn't deserve those awards; he definitely deserved the 2003 award and was probably the best of three excellent candidates in 2000. Ronaldo was better in '98, but two completely legitimate World Player of the Year awards is pretty impressive. On the other hand, Ronaldo's got two legit awards even without '98 (his 2002 win is an even better example than the '98 award of the voters just handing the award to the WC Final matchwinner). Why is Zidane the best of the era and not Ronaldo?

Say you're setting up a team like the current Chelsea one. In that formation, you want your AMs to be able to score because you're not getting as much from your lone striker - though if you're playing an all-time team with Eusebio or Pele up front then maybe that's not the case. Anyway, for that sort of team scoring ability is essential and defensive ability is also very helpful. That's not Zidane's game. He needs more support from the other midfielders and better play from the forwards than someone like Charlton or Gullit.

[ISiddiqui]

Otherworldly compared to contemporary players isn't quite the same as otherworldly compared to all-time greats.

A. As stated above, it is difficult to really compare players through eras, so like baseball, the best measure is to compare to comtemporaries.

B. I'd say he is pretty otherworldly in vision and creativity among the all time greats, that's why I have him so high. BETTER than the other attacking MF in the current discussion. That's right, better vision and creativity than Platini or Charlton or Guillet.

And in a Chelsea system, I think they can definately find a place for a Zidane who doesn't score goals, but brilliantly sets them up for others. He can make a Drogba better as to offset his lack of scoring, as well as Joe Cole, Arjen Robben, etc., just with pin point passing into areas defenders are not expecting.

[Katon]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

A. As stated above, it is difficult to really compare players through eras, so like baseball, the best measure is to compare to comtemporaries.

B. I'd say he is pretty otherworldly in vision and creativity among the all time greats, that's why I have him so high. BETTER than the other attacking MF in the current discussion. That's right, better vision and creativity than Platini or Charlton or Guillet.

And in a Chelsea system, I think they can definately find a place for a Zidane who doesn't score goals, but brilliantly sets them up for others. He can make a Drogba better as to offset his lack of scoring, as well as Joe Cole, Arjen Robben, etc., just with pin point passing into areas defenders are not expecting.

A. Granted. But brilliant as his vision was, he had one year where he was clearly the best player on the planet (2003), one year where he was almost certainly the best player on the planet (2000), and then a lot of seasons where he was one of the top five or so players in the world but not *the* best. Platini, for comparison, has three European Footballer of the Year awards in a row (1983, 4, and 5). Two of those years he pulled off the clean sweep of winning both the European and the FIFA award. He was Serie A's leading scorer in '83 and '84 from midfield, then had probably the best individual Euro ever. For three years Platini was plainly the best footballer on the planet, and he lost the title not because he got significantly worse but because of Maradona. Zidane didn't dominate his contemporaries quite the same way. Charlton and Gullit, looked at this way, come a little behind Zidane; I still think they're better for certain formations, but if you're starting a team from scratch you'd take Zidane.

B: But Platini is arguably the best passer and the best set piece taker ever. He was more able to capitalize on his vision than Zidane was on his. Who creates more goals, an AM with historic vision and superb set piece/passing skills or an AM with superb vision and historic set piece/passing skills? You'll say Zidane, and I'm inclined to agree, but do you really think the difference is twelve goals a season? Because that's how many more Zidane has to create to make up for Platini's goalscoring.

Oh, we could find a place for Zidane in our system. But we could also find a place for Charlton, and without having to tweak the system nearly as much. Can you imagine how good Charlton would be in the Lampard role?

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

In other news, I just discovered that there is an actual Philippine national team.

http://www.philfootball.info/

I always assumed that it was defunct for years...

Wow. We have a football team? I didn't know that.

[Darkiller]

Originally Posted by Katon

Zidane's club form is the argument for him. Not his international form.

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.
You are so far away from the action and the reality of it that it is useless for me to continue this.

[Katon]

Originally Posted by Darkiller

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.
You are so far away from the action and the reality of it that it is useless for me to continue this.

Slight modification, then: his form at major tournaments is not the best argument for him. At least, not if you're putting him on the Pele/Maradona/Cruyff/Beckenbauer level, which is what you did initially that started this argument. He's got one terrific tournament (Euro 2000) and three great WC matches. Everyone else in that discussion has a tournament at least as good as Euro 2000 and was better at their other major tournaments than Zidane was at the World Cup (well, not Di Stefano, but then his international form isn't the argument for him either).

If you're just arguing that he's the best of the era, then yes, Euro 2000 is pretty damn nice. But I haven't really been disputing that. I'll take Ronaldo personally, but I'd rate Zidane second and he's got a good enough claim to #1 that I'm not going to argue the point.

Out of curiosity, what is it that Zidane did at international level that you think I'm missing? Is it a WC match other than Brazil*2 and Spain, or something he did during qualifying (which I honestly have no idea about).

[miami_fan]

ZURICH, Switzerland -- Zinedine Zidane was banned by FIFA for three games Thursday for head-butting Italy defender Marco Materazzi during the World Cup final.

Materazzi was suspended for two matches.

World soccer's governing body also fined Zidane $6,000 and Materazzi $4,000 after a disciplinary committee heard the former France captain's account of what led to the incident.

Because Zidane has retired, he agreed to do three days of community service with children as part of FIFA's humanitarian projects.

Zidane has said he attacked Materazzi because he insulted his mother and sister, while Materazzi denied insulting Zidane's mother.

"Both players stressed that Materazzi's comments had been defamatory but not of a racist nature," FIFA said in a statement.

The players apologized to FIFA for "their inappropriate behavior and expressed their regret at the incident," FIFA said.

Zidane was sent off for ramming Materazzi in the chest with his head during the final, played July 9 in Berlin.

Zidane, who had already submitted written testimony, spent about 90 minutes in a private hearing Thursday morning before a five-man FIFA committee. Materazzi appeared before the FIFA panel last week.

FIFA president Sepp Blatter has suggested Zidane, widely considered one of the greatest players of his generation, could be stripped of his Golden Ball award as the World Cup's best player.

In a French television appearance last week, Zidane apologized to children who watched the match, but said he didn't regret his actions because he was provoked by repeated harsh insults about his family.

Playing in extra time in his farewell game, Zidane and Materazzi exchanged words as the two walked up field. Zidane appeared to be distancing himself from the Italian, but then turned, lowered his bald head, and drove it into Materazzi's chest -- knocking him to the ground.

Italy went on to win its fourth World Cup, 5-3 on penalties after a 1-1 extra-time draw.

[Critch]

I was catching up on the Colbert Reports that are currently clogging up my TiVo, watched one from about 3 weeks ago. Colbert was talking about the World Cup with Alexi Lalas a few days before the final, the conversation turned to the kind of stuff players say to each other.

Lalas mentioned that players constantly insult each other to try and put each other off their game, and as language is normally a problem it always ends up the same, he said they always just end up insulting each other's mother.

Must be just about the first time Lalas has ever got one of his predictions right.

[ISiddiqui]

Seeing how Materazzi got 2 game ban and almost the same amount of fine Zidane got, the comment seems like it had to be fairly beyond the pail (perhaps the lip reader who said it was about hoping his family dies). Otherwise, if it was simply jawing, I don't think he gets a 2 game ban and $4000 fine.

[Ksyrup]

OK, so I rarely follow soccer stuff, but I found the comments Materazzi made about what he said to Zidane to be funny, so I had to post about them. I know it's likely a cultural/language thing, but it's still humorous (to me)...

"We both spoke and I wasn't the first. I held his shirt but don't you think it is a provocation to say that 'if you want my shirt I will give it you afterwards'?

Um...no? Or if it is, it ain't much of one.


"I replied to Zidane that I would prefer his sister, that is true."

So...is he saying it's true that he said that, or is he saying that it is true that he would prefer the sister over the shirt? Because I have to say, if it's the latter, I'm with him.


"Thankfully there are tens of footballers who could confirm that much worse things are said on the field," added the Inter Milan defender.

Well! It's nice to know that of the millions of people who play football, there are 20 or 30 who could confirm that they've heard worse things said on the field.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

"I replied to Zidane that I would prefer his sister, that is true."

So what's his sister look like?

[fantastic flying froggies]

Apparently, Materazzi also said he didn't even know Zidane had a sister until after the game!