2006-07 Soccer Thread

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

Stars may still leave if they want CL football.

Yeah, but Inter can provide them that, and one year at Milan without it isn't going to hurt anyone. Moreover, at this point, AC's probably a favorite, even with the 15 point drop, to grab at least the 4th CL spot.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

One of my friends just sent me this which made me laugh..


"And Juventus have won their 10th straight game to start their first season in Serie B, and are currently last in the table with 0 points!"

HAHA

[ISiddiqui]

Wow... that is kind of good. Juve only goes to Serie B, but the point deduction is so much that they are almost guarenteed to stay there. Taking the CL from Milan and Juve also deprives them of big money as well .

Oh, and switching topics, THANKS BRUCE! Without you, we'd still be laughingstocks the world over (no smart comments, you Eurosnobs ).

[tanglewood]

One good thing to come from all this, it's going to great taking over Juventus in FM2007.

[SirFozzie]

Yeah.

it'll look at the talent and demand you win it all..

then after 8 games, when you're last with -6 points, it'll fire you for being in last

[Ajaxab]

Is there any chance that this decision could cause a longer term power shift in Italian football? Does it give clubs like Chievo's Flying Donkeys a shot at gaining some of the pie that Juve has given up and potentially bode well for making Serie A more competitive? I'm not optimistic, but I'd be curious to hear from others.

[SirFozzie]

Chievo Vaffanculo..... Hellas Verona

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Chievo Vaffanculo..... Hellas Verona

propos on the Tim Parks reference...

[SirFozzie]

I follow Verona because of that book

[FrogMan]

the title of a blog post on Maple Lions, a blog by canadians following English, and well world football:Ha colpito il ventilatore.*

*it has hit the fan

I have no clue if the translation is good or not, can only assume it is, and it made me laugh

FM

[Critch]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

I follow Verona because of that book

It's a great book. Great insight into the thinking of football fans, much closer than Fever Pitch anyway.

I've went for Treviso as my Italian team as their fans appear to fly Scotland flags. It's probably some regional flag as the colors don't match their strip, but it looks like a Scotland flag so that's good enough for me. If none of the appeals following today succeed, this is a good day to be a Treviso fan as the big three going down has saved them from relegation.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

It's on my Comcast digital sports tier ($5/month extra.. and you have to have digital cable, of course).

I'm up and running... yay... it'll be nice to have somethign to get into a bit before the start of the NFL season, and definitely in in the february-may months...

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

Yeah, but Inter can provide them that, and one year at Milan without it isn't going to hurt anyone. Moreover, at this point, AC's probably a favorite, even with the 15 point drop, to grab at least the 4th CL spot.

It's a fairly interesting prisoner's dilemma type problem actually. If everyone at AC Milan stays, then you probably make that 4th spot, especially without the three teams that were demoted. But if players start to leave, then your odds start diminishing.

[Oilers9911]

So Juve was stripped of the last two titles. Are they now awarded to anyone or are they just considered vacant?

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Oilers9911

So Juve was stripped of the last two titles. Are they now awarded to anyone or are they just considered vacant?

From what I read on an Italian news site, it appears that nothing will be determined until after the appeals are heard. Once the process runs it's course, the placement of the titles will be announced.

[Oilers9911]

Originally Posted by cartman

From what I read on an Italian news site, it appears that nothing will be determined until after the appeals are heard. Once the process runs it's course, the placement of the titles will be announced.

Was AC Milan the runner-up both years? Because I imagine they would not be eligible for the titles either.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Oilers9911

Was AC Milan the runner-up both years? Because I imagine they would not be eligible for the titles either.

Yep, the past couple of seasons it has been 1. Juve 2. Milan 3. Inter. Milan only had points deducted for this past season, so they are probably still eligible for the 2004-2005 Scudetto. Inter, it would appear, would be awarded the 2005-2006 Scudetto. But the soccer organization may decide to leave the titles vacant, meaning Milan would be the reigining champ, since they won the title in 2003-2004. Still a lot of uncertainty regarding this. And, Italians being the way they are, everyone has a different opinion on how the situation should be resolved.

[Oilers9911]

What a huge deal this must be in Italy. Imagine the Red Sox being demoted to AAA and being stripped of the 2004 World Series.

[Critch]

Milan are claiming innocence.

“They say we were part of this system, that we rigged things to our advantage. Well, Milan was the richest in Italy, the acting Milan president was also the president of the Italian league, the Milan owner – me – was Prime Minister and we controlled three television networks. And we still didn’t win any league titles. Do they really think that, given all that power, we would rig the league so that we could finish second?” - Silvio Berlusconi

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by Critch

Milan are claiming innocence.

“They say we were part of this system, that we rigged things to our advantage. Well, Milan was the richest in Italy, the acting Milan president was also the president of the Italian league, the Milan owner – me – was Prime Minister and we controlled three television networks. And we still didn’t win any league titles. Do they really think that, given all that power, we would rig the league so that we could finish second?” - Silvio Berlusconi

So in effect he is saying: 'I don't mind being called a cheat, but I resent being called incompetent'

[Katon]

That's Berlusconi all right.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

Originally Posted by Oilers9911

What a huge deal this must be in Italy. Imagine the Red Sox being demoted to AAA and being stripped of the 2004 World Series.

Actually, it's more like the Yankees losing two of their 26 titles and being forced to play in AAA.

I'm not sure the punishments here fit the crimes. I keep hearing it referred to as the "match fixing scandal," but were any matches actually fixed? I understand that Juve officials wanted refs that were friendly to them, but does this automatically imply that they were fixed? Shouldn't the refs who favor certain clubs be looked at as well? Maybe they are, but I don't hear anything regarding that.

This whole thing reminds me of how the NCAA handles things. The schools are punished because of the actions of some of their staff, but it usually ends up hurting the innocent instead of the guilty. I understand the need to send a harsh message, but why punish the clubs/schools when most likely they didn't know what was going on? Punish those responsible with a lifetime ban. That will get their attention.

Of course, I'm a Juve supporter so take all this with a grain of salt. I just hate the idea of being stuck in Serie B for two years. First Leeds, now this. At least Barça is still doing well (crosses fingers).

[SirFozzie]

Some refs have been banned for a period of time as well.

Match-Fixing is the label that the media gave it. The charges that they were guilty of were "Sporting Fraud".

And there's no doubt Juve and crew benefited from the illegal actions. How do you "make good" two years of the kind of things that happened... you have to punish the team, because you can't.

[ISiddiqui]

Indeed... if anything, the punishments are far less lenient than the crimes. This impacts the integrity of the sport. When some clubs can determine which refs are doing their matches (and which are doing their opponents') the entire system comes into disrepute. Remember, in soccer, it is far easier for a ref to change the game with one call (a penalty for example) than in other sports.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Ezarik

Actually, it's more like the Yankees losing two of their 26 titles and being forced to play in AAA.

I'm not sure the punishments here fit the crimes. I keep hearing it referred to as the "match fixing scandal," but were any matches actually fixed? I understand that Juve officials wanted refs that were friendly to them, but does this automatically imply that they were fixed? Shouldn't the refs who favor certain clubs be looked at as well? Maybe they are, but I don't hear anything regarding that.

This whole thing reminds me of how the NCAA handles things. The schools are punished because of the actions of some of their staff, but it usually ends up hurting the innocent instead of the guilty. I understand the need to send a harsh message, but why punish the clubs/schools when most likely they didn't know what was going on? Punish those responsible with a lifetime ban. That will get their attention.

Of course, I'm a Juve supporter so take all this with a grain of salt. I just hate the idea of being stuck in Serie B for two years. First Leeds, now this. At least Barça is still doing well (crosses fingers).

They certainly were trying to alter the results of matches. Not exactly fixing per se, but the intent is certainly the same: alter the outcome in your favor. The big difference in this scandal is also that team management was involved. Typically match fixing involves an outside influence, bookie, betting parlor, etc.. What makes it such a huge deal is that the corruption came from the inside.

[RPI-Fan]

Originally Posted by Critch

Milan are claiming innocence.

“They say we were part of this system, that we rigged things to our advantage. Well, Milan was the richest in Italy, the acting Milan president was also the president of the Italian league, the Milan owner – me – was Prime Minister and we controlled three television networks. And we still didn’t win any league titles. Do they really think that, given all that power, we would rig the league so that we could finish second?” - Silvio Berlusconi

Apparantly he doesn't understand the accusations -- the accusations involve selecting which referees do their game. You very well could take all of your poewr to do that, and still finish 2nd.

[AlexB]

I think he was trying to say if they were going to rig it they wouldn't stop at just selecting referees, but would out and out decide matches.

I know where he's coming from - he's claiming innocence precisely because the cheating they are accused of isn't a guarantee of success: if he was to cheat, he would ensure they had this guarantee... By this logic, they didn't win, therefore they didn't cheat.

I don't necessarily believe him, but that is the explanation. It's not overly deep.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Indeed... if anything, the punishments are far less lenient than the crimes. This impacts the integrity of the sport. When some clubs can determine which refs are doing their matches (and which are doing their opponents') the entire system comes into disrepute. Remember, in soccer, it is far easier for a ref to change the game with one call (a penalty for example) than in other sports.

Ok, I don't disagree that this whole scandal does give the sport a black eye and that serious action has to be taken against those responsible. But has anyone gone back and looked at the past two seasons to see if controversial calls went in Juve's favor consistently?

I know, I should take off my black and white tinted glasses to see this for what it really is, but it's hard to accept this. Especially when those Milan bastards got to stay in the top flight (not that I'm surprised).

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Ezarik

Ok, I don't disagree that this whole scandal does give the sport a black eye and that serious action has to be taken against those responsible. But has anyone gone back and looked at the past two seasons to see if controversial calls went in Juve's favor consistently?

I know, I should take off my black and white tinted glasses to see this for what it really is, but it's hard to accept this. Especially when those Milan bastards got to stay in the top flight (not that I'm surprised).

Don't forget the wire taps were ordered during the investigation into Juventus' club doctor giving players performance enhancing drugs (for which he was convicted). So if the cheating by adminstering drugs hadn't happened, there is a possibility that this additional cheating wouldn't have occurred...

[daedalus]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Ezarik

I'm not sure the punishments here fit the crimes. I keep hearing it referred to as the "match fixing scandal," but were any matches actually fixed? I understand that Juve officials wanted refs that were friendly to them, but does this automatically imply that they were fixed? Shouldn't the refs who favor certain clubs be looked at as well? Maybe they are, but I don't hear anything regarding that.

Actually, that's been brought up as well. I'm basing these comments on an article in the June '06 World Soccer written by Paddy Agnew (I put his name in here in case he's had a long-standing axe to grind with these teams that I am not aware of).

• One example given involved ex-referee Danilo Nucini awarded a penalty against Juventus for Bologna in January '01. He was suspended for 4 weekends and, supposedly (according to the article), his "top-flight career" was more or less ended. According to him, it was a clear penalty where Iuliano handled the ball and supposedly admitted it in a TV interview that was never broadcast.
• Another did not directly involved Juventus but was between Siena and Livorno on May 8, 2005. Apparently, Siena -- who had players and coach Gigi Di Canio on GEA Sports Agency's books, which happens to be run by Alessandro Moggi . . . son of -- was struggling to avoid relegation. In the match, Livorno defender Fabio Galante was "controversially" sent off after 17 minutes in a match officiated by De Santis where he supposedly boasted to Innocenzo Mazzini afterward: "Did you see it? Off and away we go and I had one of them already off."
• Apparently, Pierluigi Pairetto told referee Paolo Dondarini to keep "50 eyes wide open" ready to "see even that which is not there". The author postulates that he may be making a veiled reference to make sure to call even a non-existing penalty.

I'm with ISiddiqui in that I think they got off even more lightly than deserved -- I could certainly live with Serie C AND 40-50 point reduction. In fact, I think IF they appeal and fail, their punishment should become more severe.

I also don't see any mention of tapping up and what nots with transfer. Apparently, the transcript talked about their attempt to buy Zlatan Ibrahimovic. When negotiation stalled in the summer of '04, he was advised to create a fuss. So he supposedly went out and got into a big deal with his Ajax teammates by, uhhh, kicking Rafael van der Vaart and John Heitinga in a friendly between Holland and Sweden. I guess that didn't leave Ajax much choice but to let him join Juve 2 weeks later.

[Critch]

One of the big tricks Juventus were pulling was to make sure that future opponents would get a harsh referee the week before playing Juventus. One example is that they picked a known card-fiend for a Bologna game the week before they played Juventus. Bologna had three players sent off, so they were all suspended for the Juventus game.

It might not be straight forward match fixing in the traditional sense, but it's certainly playing the percentages in a dishonest manner.

According to Gabriele Marcotti, Lazio could be the biggest loser in all this. Fiorentina, AC Milan and Juventus all have huge amounts of money behind them so they'll bounce back, but Lazio were already on the verge of bankruptcy and may not survive now.

This is just the first batch of clubs to be tried, there are five other smaller clubs still to be disciplined before we find out who's actually in Serie A next year. Messina, Reggina, Siena, Lecce and Arezzo are still to face the panel.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Critch

One of the big tricks Juventus were pulling was to make sure that future opponents would get a harsh referee the week before playing Juventus. One example is that they picked a known card-fiend for a Bologna game the week before they played Juventus. Bologna had three players sent off, so they were all suspended for the Juventus game.

It might not be straight forward match fixing in the traditional sense, but it's certainly playing the percentages in a dishonest manner.

According to Gabriele Marcotti, Lazio could be the biggest loser in all this. Fiorentina, AC Milan and Juventus all have huge amounts of money behind them so they'll bounce back, but Lazio were already on the verge of bankruptcy and may not survive now.

This is just the first batch of clubs to be tried, there are five other smaller clubs still to be disciplined before we find out who's actually in Serie A next year. Messina, Reggina, Siena, Lecce and Arezzo are still to face the panel.

Another example was Juve pressing to have the Fiorentina match played after the Pope died because Fiorentina had a few key players suspended.

[Joe]

it's official:



Report: Cannavaro to join Real Madrid
Fabio Cannavaro

Fabio Cannavaro

Associated Press

7/16/2006 1:30:35 PM

MADRID, Spain (AP) - Italy's World Cup winning captain and Juventus defender Fabio Cannavaro has decided to sign for Real Madrid next season, a Spanish newspaper reported on Sunday.

Cannavaro called former Juventus and current Real Madrid coach Fabio Capello and told him that he will play for the Spanish powerhouse, the sports daily AS reported.

The 32-year-old defender, widely considered one of the top players at the World Cup in Germany, has also been targeted by Chelsea and Italian powerhouse AC Milan, according to media reports.

After the reported call, Capello contacted Real chairman Ramon Calderon to confirm that Cannavaro will be in the Santiago Bernabeu next season, AS said without naming a source.

Madrid's sports director Peja Mijatovic said earlier this week that the club was close to signing Cannavaro.


Juventus, Italy's domestic champion for the past two years, has been relegated to Serie B in the country's match-fixing scandal but can appeal. Several of its players are reportedly seeking to move to other clubs.

Real Madrid has not won a trophy in three years despite a glittering lineup that boasts players like Ronaldo and David Beckham.

[Joe]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

It's on my Comcast digital sports tier ($5/month extra.. and you have to have digital cable, of course).

Do you get goltv in the digital sports tier? I got that hooked up a few weeks ago and am wondering if it is included somewhere that I can't find or is just in some areas because I heard comcast started carrying it.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by George W Bush

Do you get goltv in the digital sports tier? I got that hooked up a few weeks ago and am wondering if it is included somewhere that I can't find or is just in some areas because I heard comcast started carrying it.

Yeah, I'm getting it. The channels are right next to each other here. I'm on comcast.

[Joe]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

Yeah, I'm getting it. The channels are right next to each other here. I'm on comcast.

Crap, my area probably is too white to get it. All that is near that channel is NBA TV, NFL TV, College Sports TV, and the 3 Fox College Sports channels.

[RPI-Fan]

Originally Posted by George W Bush

Crap, my area probably is too white to get it. All that is near that channel is NBA TV, NFL TV, College Sports TV, and the 3 Fox College Sports channels.

At least you get NFL TV!!

I don't get that OR GolTV OR Setanta.

Edit: I have Timewarner Cable.

[Joe]

Originally Posted by RPI-Fan

At least you get NFL TV!!

I don't get that OR GolTV OR Setanta.

Edit: I have Timewarner Cable.

I'd gladly trade NFL TV for GOLTV. I'd throw in a few other channels too.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by George W Bush

Do you get goltv in the digital sports tier? I got that hooked up a few weeks ago and am wondering if it is included somewhere that I can't find or is just in some areas because I heard comcast started carrying it.

I got it, but its on Ch 294 while FSC is 124. Though GolTV is next to all the Fox Sports Atlantic/Central/Pacific channels. So search around. See if the English language version is next to the Spanish language one.

[Joe]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I got it, but its on Ch 294 while FSC is 124. Though GolTV is next to all the Fox Sports Atlantic/Central/Pacific channels. So search around. See if the English language version is next to the Spanish language one.

crap I checked the comcast site and what I get is:

262 Fox College Sports Atlantic
263 Fox College Sports Central
264 Fox College Sports Pacific
267 Fox Soccer Channel
273 NBA TV
274 College Sports TV
275 NFL TV

[ISiddiqui]

What you need to do is leave rude call after rude call, demanding GolTV until it happens .

[RPI-Fan]

Originally Posted by George W Bush

I'd gladly trade NFL TV for GOLTV. I'd throw in a few other channels too.

I'll trade you Speed Channel and NBA TV for NFL TV.

[Critch]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

What you need to do is leave rude call after rude call, demanding GolTV until it happens .

Try doing it with different voices and accents to fool them into thinking it's more than one person calling.

[ice4277]

Originally Posted by George W Bush

Crap, my area probably is too white to get it. All that is near that channel is NBA TV, NFL TV, College Sports TV, and the 3 Fox College Sports channels.

I live in probably the whitest of the white areas in Detroit, yet even we get GolTV.

Not that that makes you feel any better

[cthomer5000]

What's everyone's take on GolTv? Based on my 3-day sample, I'd say I prefer Fox's programming about 95% of the time anyway.

[ice4277]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

What's everyone's take on GolTv? Based on my 3-day sample, I'd say I prefer Fox's programming about 95% of the time anyway.

In terms of the quality of presentation, FSC is much better IMO. However, they do show a lot of games, and its the only place to catch La Liga, plus they generally have the better matches from Italy, although who knows what will happen with that now. In addition, they have UEFA Cup and usually have World Cup/Euro qualifiers.

If I had to choose one, it would be FSC, but GolTV is a nice compliment. I pay the extra $5 for the Comcast sports tier, and I would probably pay if it was only for GolTV.

[Critch]

GolTV is good during the European season, good coverage of the Spanish and Italian league plus UEFA Cup games.

During the summer it struggles to fil time just like FOX. At least it still has some live South American soccer over the summer when FOX is dredging out it's "classics" (is Bolton beating West Ham 4-1 from last season really a classic?) and that Fox United garbage.

It would be better to rate GolTV on three days during it's season that the summer stuff, I think. It's much the same standard as FOX, but with different leagues and more games. Really depends whether you prefer Spanish and Italian coverage to Fox's EPL. GolTV's Italian coverage is far better than FOX's.

[Butter]

Some of the Brazilian matches on GolTV are fairly entertaining... and I always enjoyed watching Real Madrid underachieve on the live Spanish telecasts. But their presentation is for crap... you can never hear the crowd in any of their games. I will miss the UEFA Cup matches, but in the end the final is on FSC anyway. I dropped DirecTV a few months back and honestly haven't missed GolTV much at all. If your main interest is English soccer, there's not much of a reason to have it, unless you want to see the odd friendly or UEFA Cup game here and there.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

Some of the Brazilian matches on GolTV are fairly entertaining... and I always enjoyed watching Real Madrid underachieve on the live Spanish telecasts. But their presentation is for crap... you can never hear the crowd in any of their games. I will miss the UEFA Cup matches, but in the end the final is on FSC anyway. I dropped DirecTV a few months back and honestly haven't missed GolTV much at all. If your main interest is English soccer, there's not much of a reason to have it, unless you want to see the odd friendly or UEFA Cup game here and there.

Have you heard the FSC Serie A broadcasts? It's like the guy is broadcasting from a soundproof booth.

[Butter]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

Have you heard the FSC Serie A broadcasts? It's like the guy is broadcasting from a soundproof booth.

Yeah. I think my favorite moment from their broadcasts last season was some Italian match that was delayed because the wind had knocked down a couple of fences between the crowd and the field. The guy kept saying "the word from the match is that this match has been abandoned". First of all, you know he wasn't getting any word from the match unless he can speak Italian. Secondly, he kept saying it was abandoned, and that they would get back to the action when the necessary repairs had been made. His definition of abandoned and mine just don't get along.