So The Superbowl is Over (Unofficial 2007 NFL Draft/Free Agency Thread)

[gottimd]

Originally Posted by sachmo71

I'm sure most of the NFL gm's would agree with you.

Show me one that doesn't and I'll send him the bag of diarrhea free of charge!

[sachmo71]

Originally Posted by gottimd

Show me one that doesn't and I'll send him the bag of diarrhea free of charge!

You better have a monster case of the runs...

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by sachmo71

I'm sure most of the NFL gm's would agree with you.

It only takes one. As long as it is not Randy Mueller.

[gottimd]

Originally Posted by sachmo71

You better have a monster case of the runs...

Did I ever say it had to be my own?

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by gottimd

If I were a GM, I'd offer a plastic bag full of warm, fresh diarrhea for Moss. I'd rather have an average receiver who won't cost as much who will play his heart out even when the team is way down.

But wait.. what would be the actual cost of Moss to a new team? I imagine much of his money was in bonus?

I disagree with what seems to be the standard thought on Moss. I think, depending on his cap number, that there are several teams that he could be a very valuable addition to.

[gottimd]

Originally Posted by wade moore

But wait.. what would be the actual cost of Moss to a new team? I imagine much of his money was in bonus?

I disagree with what seems to be the standard thought on Moss. I think, depending on his cap number, that there are several teams that he could be a very valuable addition to.

Valuable addition to on paper, yes. But if the team doesn't perform to his standards, he basically takes himself out of the game becoming no more useful than a 7 year old out there.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by gottimd

Valuable addition to on paper, yes. But if the team doesn't perform to his standards, he basically takes himself out of the game becoming no more useful than a 7 year old out there.

This is what everyone loves to say, and I know it's trendy to dog moss, but I just don't see it personally. He has had some issues, but let's face it, since culpepper left the vikings he hasn't been on a good team.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by wade moore

This is what everyone loves to say, and I know it's trendy to dog moss, but I just don't see it personally. He has had some issues, but let's face it, since culpepper left the vikings he hasn't been on a good team.

there are plenty of guys on bad teams that try

[gottimd]

Originally Posted by wade moore

This is what everyone loves to say, and I know it's trendy to dog moss, but I just don't see it personally. He has had some issues, but let's face it, since culpepper left the vikings he hasn't been on a good team.

Yes, some of his play can be attributable to a poor QB, but to me, that is not an excuse. IMHO, to be considered a great WR, you should be able to perform no matter who is throwing to you. Culpepper isn't that great of a QB, and Moss does do well when he wants to play. Its just the risk factor of giving up alot for him and then he takes himself out of the game? Thats just ridiculous. You are paid to play the game 100%, there really isn't a "Play if you feel like it" clause in the contract.

That is my major issue with Moss. He has the talent, don't get me wrong, I just think that because he has no heart, it lowers his quality as a receiver.

Being near this area, Art Monk was a great receiver. Always put up consistent numbers no matter who the QB was. I'm not saying Randy Moss=Art Monk, but if Randy Moss wants to be considered one of the all time greats and be paid like one of them, he sets the bar high on himself and should play like that regardless of his teams status or QB.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by gottimd

Yes, some of his play can be attributable to a poor QB, but to me, that is not an excuse. IMHO, to be considered a great WR, you should be able to perform no matter who is throwing to you. Culpepper isn't that great of a QB, and Moss does do well when he wants to play. Its just the risk factor of giving up alot for him and then he takes himself out of the game? Thats just ridiculous. You are paid to play the game 100%, there really isn't a "Play if you feel like it" clause in the contract.

That is my major issue with Moss. He has the talent, don't get me wrong, I just think that because he has no heart, it lowers his quality as a receiver.

Being near this area, Art Monk was a great receiver. Always put up consistent numbers no matter who the QB was. I'm not saying Randy Moss=Art Monk, but if Randy Moss wants to be considered one of the all time greats and be paid like one of them, he sets the bar high on himself and should play like that regardless of his teams status or QB.

Monk never had terrible QB's (ok, maybe Shroeder). Show me another stud WR who put up stud numbers with guys the likes of Aaron Brooks and Andrew Walter - I dare you.

[gottimd]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Monk never had terrible QB's (ok, maybe Shroeder). Show me another stud WR who put up stud numbers with guys the likes of Aaron Brooks and Andrew Walter - I dare you.

Stud numbers and just being able to play somewhat at a decent level because you are a great receiver are two different things. No receiver puts up 9 billion TD's a year. But look at the dramatic shift in his stats. Even with Culpepper, in the later years, when he decided he didn't want to play, his stats started to suffer.

[MikeVic]

Is this an offseason thread too? Steelers C Jeff Hartings retired.

[Tyrith]

Moss would certainly be capable of being at least a league average receiver if he decided he was going to actually try hard. To a small degree he'd make his really bad quarterback look slightly better because he'd be catching some badly thrown balls. But he decided to just lollygag around and now he's not a good receiver at all. He certainly has a higher level of performance than what he is at now, regardless of how good his QB is.

[wade moore]

I grew up with Monk and loved him and Clark (to this day Gary Clark is my favorite player of all time), but I think you're romanticizing him a bit. Look at these comparisons, Moss's first season with Oakland where they were terrible, would have been within the top 5 of Monk's career. If Moss plays 16 games ini 2004, it's quite possible he has 1 season without 1000 yards in his whole career. Sorry, this hating on Moss is just not justified when you actually look at the numbers. The only truely bad year he's had was 2006 when, come on, the offense was TERRIBLE on every level.

                 +--------------------------+-------------------------+
                 |          Rushing         |        Receiving        |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| Year  TM |   G |   Att  Yards    Y/A   TD |   Rec  Yards   Y/R   TD |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| 1998 min |  16 |     1      4    4.0    0 |    69   1313  19.0   17 |
| 1999 min |  16 |     4     43   10.8    0 |    80   1413  17.7   11 |
| 2000 min |  16 |     3      5    1.7    0 |    77   1437  18.7   15 |
| 2001 min |  16 |     3     38   12.7    0 |    82   1233  15.0   10 |
| 2002 min |  16 |     6     51    8.5    0 |   106   1347  12.7    7 |
| 2003 min |  16 |     6     18    3.0    0 |   111   1632  14.7   17 |
| 2004 min |  13 |     0      0    0.0    0 |    49    767  15.7   13 |
| 2005 oak |  16 |     0      0    0.0    0 |    60   1005  16.8    8 |
| 2006 oak |  13 |     0      0    0.0    0 |    42    553  13.2    3 |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
|  TOTAL   | 138 |    23    159    6.9    0 |   676  10700  15.8  101 |
 +----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

                 +--------------------------+-------------------------+
                 |          Rushing         |        Receiving        |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| Year  TM |   G |   Att  Yards    Y/A   TD |   Rec  Yards   Y/R   TD |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| 1980 was |  16 |     0      0    0.0    0 |    58    797  13.7    3 |
| 1981 was |  16 |     1     -5   -5.0    0 |    56    894  16.0    6 |
| 1982 was |   9 |     7     21    3.0    0 |    35    447  12.8    1 |
| 1983 was |  12 |     3    -19   -6.3    0 |    47    746  15.9    5 |
| 1984 was |  16 |     2     18    9.0    0 |   106   1372  12.9    7 |
| 1985 was |  15 |     7     51    7.3    0 |    91   1226  13.5    2 |
| 1986 was |  16 |     4     27    6.8    0 |    73   1068  14.6    4 |
| 1987 was |   9 |     6     63   10.5    0 |    38    483  12.7    6 |
| 1988 was |  16 |     7     46    6.6    0 |    72    946  13.1    5 |
| 1989 was |  16 |     3      8    2.7    0 |    86   1186  13.8    8 |
| 1990 was |  16 |     7     59    8.4    0 |    68    770  11.3    5 |
| 1991 was |  16 |     9     19    2.1    0 |    71   1049  14.8    8 |
| 1992 was |  16 |     6     45    7.5    0 |    46    644  14.0    3 |
| 1993 was |  16 |     1     -1   -1.0    0 |    41    398   9.7    2 |
| 1994 nyj |  16 |     0      0    0.0    0 |    46    581  12.6    3 |
| 1995 phi |   3 |     0      0    0.0    0 |     6    114  19.0    0 |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
|  TOTAL   | 224 |    63    332    5.3    0 |   940  12721  13.5   68 |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

[Bee]

I don't think there's any question that Moss has talent but lacks motivation. The real question IMO is does anyone think they can motivate him to live up to his talent and then can they actually succeed. I would think based on the egos in the NFL, there's quite a few coaches out there that think they can get Moss to be productive again. I think the liklihood of them being successful is much more up in the air.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Monk never had terrible QB's (ok, maybe Shroeder). Show me another stud WR who put up stud numbers with guys the likes of Aaron Brooks and Andrew Walter - I dare you.

Chris Chambers 05 Dolphins? The great trigger man Gus Ferrote at the controls?

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Vinatieri for Prez

Yeah, you must be right. No way did they come within 4 yards and a first down of beating the Colts and then likely then winning the SB against the Bears (if the same team had showed up like yesterday). And yes, if you want to call guys at the end of their careers stars, then you're right. Branch was the one and only exception to that.

I'd add the guy in your screen name as a second.

Nobody can successfully argue that the Patriots strategy hasn't worked to this point. I do believe that if they have Branch that they would have won the title this year, but it's hard to argue with a 4 point loss on the road in the AFC title game.

As of now, the Patriots are doing a terrific job of finding fits for their system and it really can't be argued.

[wade moore]

I will also point out that two of Moss's best seasons, 2001 and 2002, The Vikings were 5-11 and 6-10 respectively.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

Chris Chambers 05 Dolphins? The great trigger man Gus Ferrote at the controls?

I think a lot more highly of Frerrote than most people, so this logic might not work with me.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by wade moore

I think a lot more highly of Frerrote than most people, so this logic might not work with me.

well there are plenty of examples of productive receivers with 70ish rating quarterbacks.

[gottimd]

Originally Posted by wade moore

I will also point out that two of Moss's best seasons, 2001 and 2002, The Vikings were 5-11 and 6-10 respectively.

I was just throwing Monk out there for comparison. But the way Moss has shown inconsistency based on his feelings of "I'll play when I feel like it", is just an awful attitude. My point is that Moss doesn't have any heart, or at least shows very little. Would you want a superstar Caliber player on your team who won't play 100% or would you rather have just a decent receiver who will do what it takes to get the job done? That is what Moss lacks. He has the talent and potential, I understand that, but without any heart, it pretty much nullifies that. A team takes a huge risk in signing him, will he play or will he not? I think of someone of his potential and caliber and price, that shouldn't be a question a GM/Coach/teammate has to even think twice about. That is the problem with Moss.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by gottimd

I was just throwing Monk out there for comparison. But the way Moss has shown inconsistency based on his feelings of "I'll play when I feel like it", is just an awful attitude. My point is that Moss doesn't have any heart, or at least shows very little. Would you want a superstar Caliber player on your team who won't play 100% or would you rather have just a decent receiver who will do what it takes to get the job done? That is what Moss lacks. He has the talent and potential, I understand that, but without any heart, it pretty much nullifies that. A team takes a huge risk in signing him, will he play or will he not? I think of someone of his potential and caliber and price, that shouldn't be a question a GM/Coach/teammate has to even think twice about. That is the problem with Moss.

What I'm saying is this "Moss doesn't try" is mostly trumped up by the media.

The stats just don't back up this theory at all. I would love to have Moss on most teams I root for, just that my two key teams right now need a lot more things before WR (Redskins and Colts).

[sachmo71]

Originally Posted by gottimd

I was just throwing Monk out there for comparison. But the way Moss has shown inconsistency based on his feelings of "I'll play when I feel like it", is just an awful attitude. My point is that Moss doesn't have any heart, or at least shows very little. Would you want a superstar Caliber player on your team who won't play 100% or would you rather have just a decent receiver who will do what it takes to get the job done? That is what Moss lacks. He has the talent and potential, I understand that, but without any heart, it pretty much nullifies that. A team takes a huge risk in signing him, will he play or will he not? I think of someone of his potential and caliber and price, that shouldn't be a question a GM/Coach/teammate has to even think twice about. That is the problem with Moss.

The disconnect is reality. A GM of a contending team, if they had the cap space, would jump at the chance to get Moss. I would argue that all of them would.

[gottimd]

I guess we could go on and on in circles, and everyone is entitled to their opinions.

I think the bottom line is that none of us will be making the decision in regards to Moss

I miss football already.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by gottimd

I guess we could go on and on in circles, and everyone is entitled to their opinions.

I think the bottom line is that none of us will be making the decision in regards to Moss

I miss football already.

I think bottom line is, that as sachmo says, most NFL teams would love to have Moss. Now, the price is obviously part of the sticking point, but I still think that there are only a handful of guys that NFL teams would want over Moss.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by MikeVic

Is this an offseason thread too? Steelers C Jeff Hartings retired.

Well, it was either that, or be released. He was a good one for a 3-4 year stretch in there. Although he totally sucked this year. I'm suprised someone as good as him came from the Lions.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

I think you've seen Samuel's last game as a Patriot. Problem with the franchise tag is if they use it on the guy I think his attitude and play suffers. Couple that with an overall philosophy they've shown at the position and it's likely he walks. Of course if the offers don't come in than maybe it's a different story but I think you'll see a team make him a career making type contract offer.

I agree there is a chance he's gone, but I will still be pissed. As far as the tag, they're not afraid to use it since they franchised Vinatieri twice (three times?) in a row. I'm not so sure Samuel's play would suffer if he was tagged. This is because he would be up for FA again the next season, and if he sucked then his potential dollars would go way down. I've seen other tagged players play well. I think you could see a franchise tag and another year of in-season re-negotiation before he either resigns or is gone.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Vinatieri for Prez

I agree there is a chance he's gone, but I will still be pissed. As far as the tag, they're not afraid to use it since they franchised Vinatieri twice (three times?) in a row. I'm not so sure Samuel's play would suffer if he was tagged. This is because he would be up for FA again the next season, and if he sucked then his potential dollars would go way down. I've seen other tagged players play well. I think you could see a franchise tag and another year of in-season re-negotiation before he either resigns or is gone.

I consider Vinatieri a different case. I just get the sense with Samuel you are going down the disgruntled/holdout path with a tag.

Him leaving for some reason doesn't upset or concern me that much. Good player but not a Champ Bailey type talent. Ok, who is but that's the dollars you may see.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Ah, the dreaded holdout. That would throw a monkey wrench into things. This usually ends up with the Patriots getting a 1st rounder in exchange. That would be ok though.

[albionmoonlight]

With the recent increase in cap money through the new CBA, I think that you are going to see a lot of players curious to test the waters. I am sure that Samuel and his agent are looking at how many teams out there have stupid money that they may choose to throw at him.

All it takes is one Dan Snyder out there to make it worth someone's while to test the market.

[st.cronin]

I'd be sad if Samuel left. I think he's become one of the best cbs in the league. I'd rather have him than Rodney Harrison.

[Daimyo]

After the AFC championship, I really hope New England lets him go!

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Daimyo

After the AFC championship, I really hope New England lets him go!

Maybe they can sign Marlin Jackson instead.

[stevew]

Are people expecting Cleveland and Atlanta to switch first round picks(and maybe more), and ATL to send Schaub to cleveland? Cause he's certainly got quite a few votes as Cleve's starter in that new "where is the qb headed thread" game.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by stevew

Are people expecting Cleveland and Atlanta to switch first round picks(and maybe more), and ATL to send Schaub to cleveland? Cause he's certainly got quite a few votes as Cleve's starter in that new game.

I really don't see Schaub going anywhere this off-season with a new coach unsure of what exactly he has in Vick. Also, a team would be stupid to give up the first or second round Atlanta wants with that pick.

[AgustusM]

If the point of a football team is to produce nice statistics

then I might consider Moss

if the point is to win - I would pass no matter what point in his career you want to give him to me.

football statistics are easily the least important (because they are the most heavily influenced my other factors and the small amount of games makes for such a small sample size) of all sports statistics. Nothing accomplished in football is accomplished by an individual.

I let you pick all the skill position players from any team in the NFL and you let me pick your OL - you will be the worst offense in the league.

[st.cronin]

I can see some team going nuts and sending Atl a 2nd rounder for Schaub. Heck, I could see the Bears doing that.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

I can see some team going nuts and sending Atl a 2nd rounder for Schaub. Heck, I could see the Bears doing that.

I'd so rather see a Cleveland do so. High 2nd = good .

[stevew]

From some other board...might be a PFT snippet though....

The Browns and Texans have progressed beyond preliminary talks about dealing David Carr to the Browns for LB Chaun Thompson and swapping 1st round picks, with the Browns getting a later extra pick. The Texans really want Adrian Peterson and are willing to dump Carr to get him. Apparently those Jake Plummer-to-Houston rumblings are serious too, though this person told me that he wouldn't rule out Byron Leftwich as the Texans QB next year. I'll believe that when I see it though...

[miami_fan]

So now they decide to give up on him?

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

So now they decide to give up on him?

2nd year under a new coach. The timing actually makes sense on that level. Kubiak wanted a year to see what he had in Carr. And, if these rumors are true, didn't like what he saw and now wants to rebuild at that position.

[albionmoonlight]

dola--

Though, for the life of me, I wonder if anyone can really know if David Carr sucks or not. I have some idea that if you put Tom Brady or Sage Rosenfels on that offense, the results would look about the same as with David Carr. At some point, you need more than 1 good WR on an offense in order to see how good a quarterback is.

[sachmo71]

Originally Posted by stevew

From some other board...might be a PFT snippet though....

How are any of those QBs better than Carr? They need to trade for an o-line.

[bulletsponge]

the Texans missed thier opportunity to make me a fan when the passed on VY

[Butter]

I still scratch my head and wonder why the Texans didn't take either Young or Bush. Once in a decade situations on both players, and they said forget it to both and went with Mario Williams... who, even if he pans out is still not going to draw fans or interest. Good move.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

I still scratch my head and wonder why the Texans didn't take either Young or Bush. Once in a decade situations on both players, and they said forget it to both and went with Mario Williams... who, even if he pans out is still not going to draw fans or interest. Good move.

It's called overthinking. Similar to when a man, going to the laundromat, finds a check for $500 lying on the ground and $500 in cash. While standing there and thinking about which one to take, he decides to pick up the quarter on the ground because it gives him the easiest way to help pay for the cost of his laundry.

[Fonzie]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

It's called overthinking. Similar to when a man, going to the laundromat, finds a check for $500 lying on the ground and $500 in cash. While standing there and thinking about which one to take, he decides to pick up the quarter on the ground because it gives him the easiest way to help pay for the cost of his laundry.

Plus it's nice and shiny.

[sony]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

Freeney is overrated, IMO. He only has one move; an upward swim over the left tackle. He'll expose slow/lumbering tackles (i.e. Ogden) but any LT with some speed can totally block him. Also, draws work extremely well against him which was why losing DT Corey Simon was a huge loss for the Colts and the addition of Booger McFarland was so important.

To say Freeney only has `1 move, the upward swim` is pure stupidity . I'm not even a Colts/D.F. fan but I know NFL football. Watch some of the Colts game next year or perhaps do a YouTube of D.F. Maybe you'll see that he has one of the sickest spin move in the game today...

Of course the draws that MJD and the Jaguars, Tatum Bell and the Broncos ran on him were effective... He was playing pass rush... not run defense.... I'm 99% sure that Tony Dungy or the Defensive Line's coach wanted him to loop and play the QB....

-Sony

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by sony

To say Freeney only has `1 move, the upward swim` is pure stupidity . I'm not even a Colts/D.F. fan but I know NFL football. Watch some of the Colts game next year or perhaps do a YouTube of D.F. Maybe you'll see that he has one of the sickest spin move in the game today...

Of course the draws that MJD and the Jaguars, Tatum Bell and the Broncos ran on him were effective... He was playing pass rush... not run defense.... I'm 99% sure that Tony Dungy or the Defensive Line's coach wanted him to loop and play the QB....

-Sony

For future reference; stating an argument then discrediting in the next paragraph is usually not the best way to prove the validity of that argument.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by sony

Maybe you'll see that he has one of the sickest spin move in the game today

Dola

Last I checked, Madden is nothing like how the NFL really is and the stature of a player.

D00dz, dat guys got a killerz spin move! (Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, A, B, Select, Start)