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Old 10-22-2020, 09:21 PM   #5001
Butter
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Originally Posted by Lathum View Post
I could walk to Madeira Inn. I was talking about Tri County. Used to go the the Dave and Busters. Would hit Costco for lunch, etc...Madeira was a great small town, awesome place to raise a family. We really enjoyed our time there.

I worked basically across the street from that Costco for a few years
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Old 10-22-2020, 09:21 PM   #5002
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Legalize mariluana, Joe and you get an automatic 50 million votes.
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Old 10-22-2020, 09:22 PM   #5003
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Originally Posted by JediKooter View Post
That's how I interpreted it at least. I can't see it happening though with the way the Supreme Court will be configured here soon.

I would have liked it better if he said "we'll have a holistic immigration reform plan in 100 days".
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Old 10-22-2020, 09:23 PM   #5004
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Please Joe, use "crazy uncle" in your closing statement
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Old 10-22-2020, 09:24 PM   #5005
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Originally Posted by Edward64 View Post
Did Biden say Abraham Lincoln is most racist president?

Need close caption here

Biden was making fun for Trump comparing himself to Abe Lincoln by saying that.

Last edited by Atocep : 10-22-2020 at 09:27 PM.
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Old 10-22-2020, 09:25 PM   #5006
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Are other people seeing screen glitches or is that just CNN or my cable company?
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Old 10-22-2020, 09:26 PM   #5007
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Are other people seeing screen glitches or is that just CNN or my cable company?

fine for me
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Old 10-22-2020, 09:27 PM   #5008
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Originally Posted by tarcone View Post
Im the least racism person in the room. HAHAHA

Okay, he is slipping.

Im just saying his argument against the 15 dollar minimum and repealing obamacare was targeted at moderates.

Raising the minimum wage has 60-70% support. Obamacare 55-60. They seem to be losing issues for Trump.
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Old 10-22-2020, 09:28 PM   #5009
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AOC has to be the first freshman congressman referenced in a presidential debate.
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Old 10-22-2020, 09:28 PM   #5010
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I know the most about wind
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Old 10-22-2020, 09:29 PM   #5011
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Originally Posted by Jas_lov View Post
Raising the minimum wage has 60-70% support. Obamacare 55-60. They seem to be losing issues for Trump.

Agreed and don’t see that is speaking to moderates, I am a definite moderate having voted on both sides over the years and this is fine to me.
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Old 10-22-2020, 09:30 PM   #5012
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Originally Posted by Edward64 View Post
I would have liked it better if he said "we'll have a holistic immigration reform plan in 100 days".

I see what you mean, hard to get into most of the specifics in this setting. I would be more surprised if it did happen within 100 days of his inauguration though.
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Old 10-22-2020, 09:35 PM   #5013
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Originally Posted by cartman View Post
Biden: 500 kids don't know where there parents are

Trump: Good


That will definitely appeal to the moderates.

to be fair, on a second and third listen it sounds more like he was saying "Go ahead" to the moderator. But yeah, that was a yikes moment at first.

(and do you know how hard it is for me to be fair in this moment? :d
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Old 10-22-2020, 09:36 PM   #5014
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Been a while since I have heard about the mental state of Biden
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Old 10-22-2020, 09:38 PM   #5015
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Good debate flow, pretty well done.

I thought each had fair opportunities to rebut.
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Old 10-22-2020, 09:40 PM   #5016
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Yeah, much better debate than that first train wreck. Welker was a great moderator. Biden did what he had to and I don't think it'll change much.
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Old 10-22-2020, 09:40 PM   #5017
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Originally Posted by Jas_lov View Post
Raising the minimum wage has 60-70% support. Obamacare 55-60. They seem to be losing issues for Trump.

Okay, let me rephrase this; The minimum wage issue speaks to the rural voters that came out and supported Trump and led to his victory, as well as, the Obamacare issue.

Trump is using the same strategy that got him the presidency. The issue is, can he get enough voters out.
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Old 10-22-2020, 09:41 PM   #5018
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Trump started strong, struggled in the middle, and then picked up a bit again before falling off at the end. Overall a very uneven performance but maybe the best debate performance he's had going back to 2016.

Biden was pretty strong throughout. He was strongest in the middle part of the debate when Trump was flailing. I think he dropped off a bit near the end but closed strong.

Overall neither was bad or strong enough to move the needle much so that's a big win for Biden.

Moderation was absolutely outstanding. We got an actual debate with Donald Trump participating.

Last edited by Atocep : 10-22-2020 at 09:42 PM.
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Old 10-22-2020, 09:44 PM   #5019
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If you just got to america today and watched this debate, you would think that Biden was president and not Obama with how trump kept droning on and on about things that Biden had no control over since he was...not the president.
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Old 10-22-2020, 09:45 PM   #5020
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This format was much, much better.
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Old 10-22-2020, 09:48 PM   #5021
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Just talking to my wife who is a suburban woman, not a housewife, and she said Trumps whole attitude about the kids at the border is going to sink him. Not on ounce of empathy.
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Old 10-22-2020, 09:51 PM   #5022
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My solution for the 500+ kids is, start doing DNA tests. Have a registry for the parents and those people would also have to take DNA tests. Time consuming, but, it's the only way to be sure.
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Old 10-22-2020, 09:51 PM   #5023
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Stock futures did not go up or down significantly. I'm guessing market thinks it was a draw or not a significant win/loss.

Last edited by Edward64 : 10-22-2020 at 09:56 PM.
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Old 10-22-2020, 10:03 PM   #5024
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Trump did better, but he's still carrying the same baggage.

Biden was fine.

The third debate generally doesn't matter.

The polls haven't changed much since before COVID.
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Old 10-22-2020, 10:17 PM   #5025
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I think Trump did enough damage talking about the coronavirus and the separation of children from their families to offset any positives he may have had. These two are so old that they are probably removed from how much of an impact coronavirus has had on parents and particularly working families beyond just being fearful of the illness. I think Trump botched that with his line about teachers.

Biden making the comment about eliminating oil was A pretty bad move if he is trying to win PA. Lots of oil and natural gas fields in between the cities. But, I’d suspect most of those folks are not Biden voters in the first place.

All in all, not much of a needle mover and I do think Trump continued to miss an opportunity to make up ground with women by dismissing the separation of children from families.
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Old 10-22-2020, 10:17 PM   #5026
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Originally Posted by Atocep View Post
AOC has to be the first freshman congressman referenced in a presidential debate.

I'm so sick of people in general taking potshots at AOC. She's one of 400+ house members. She doesn't say anything other than what hundreds of people have said before and usually very common sense arguments. IS it because she's a woman? Because she's young? Because she's a democrat? All at once?

Being a woman that speaks on things that men usually speak about I think is the issue. But really if your argument is ever to put AOC down, then you are fucking stupid.

Granted I admit it IS something shocking and new to have a democrat actually fight for anything

Last edited by CrimsonFox : 10-22-2020 at 10:18 PM.
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Old 10-22-2020, 10:19 PM   #5027
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This format was much, much better.

Because they kept the toddler in a timeout?
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Old 10-22-2020, 10:33 PM   #5028
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IS it because she's a woman? Because she's young? Because she's a democrat? All at once?

Don't forget darker than lily-white.
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Old 10-22-2020, 10:50 PM   #5029
Brian Swartz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrimsonFox
I'm so sick of people in general taking potshots at AOC. She's one of 400+ house members. She doesn't say anything other than what hundreds of people have said before and usually very common sense arguments. IS it because she's a woman? Because she's young? Because she's a democrat? All at once?

Because she had a moment and a lot of press in an upset win in a large state, and has been a major face behind popularizing the Green New Deal and the general push towards more collectivist approaches to government. Some of the other aspects you mentioned played a role as well, but this is a big part of it. Anybody one side pumps up, the other side is going to put down. Particularly when the other side is as angry, often irrationally but sometimes not, as is the case right now.
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Old 10-22-2020, 11:14 PM   #5030
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Don't forget darker than lily-white.

oh yes forgot about racism. thanks cuervo. how could i forget that
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Old 10-22-2020, 11:31 PM   #5031
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Originally Posted by Brian Swartz View Post
Because she had a moment and a lot of press in an upset win in a large state, and has been a major face behind popularizing the Green New Deal and the general push towards more collectivist approaches to government. Some of the other aspects you mentioned played a role as well, but this is a big part of it. Anybody one side pumps up, the other side is going to put down. Particularly when the other side is as angry, often irrationally but sometimes not, as is the case right now.

that's another thing. Whenever democrats make a bill it suddenly gets a name and republicans stop actually saying what's wrong with anything in it or why they don't like it. I'll use the examples of "New Kids on the Block". All republican politicians do is say that "New Kids on the block" is bad and must be stopped. And they say it over and over again. Then I hear republicans (people I meet or know) say "ohhhh New Kids on the Block is bad". Never actually saying what New Kids on the block is about. Just that New Kids on the Block is bad and THIS candidate is for New Kids on the Block and that will "be bad for the state!"

It's so stupid, thoughtless, pointless shows absence of thought or analysis. I've not heard of "New Green Deal until this past week where I heard phrases like the above saying "It was bad and will cost our state"
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Old 10-23-2020, 02:07 AM   #5032
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It's really simple, a brown woman wants to help poor people and the environment. There is literally nothing scarier to rich white people.
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Old 10-23-2020, 03:26 AM   #5033
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Originally Posted by Jas_lov View Post
Raising the minimum wage has 60-70% support. Obamacare 55-60. They seem to be losing issues for Trump.

Most of the issues that apeal to his base are loosing issues in a scenario where voter turnout is equal and people vote based on issues. That's why they turned it into a Trump-based allegiance, at best based on "worldview" or being against something but not issues to vote for.

Not sure if that's underreported or whatever, but by and large the clear majority of americans leans more 'left' (including 'green') than people might think based on the discourse of these things being up in the air or split down the middle.

Take the oil/energy thing: Trump was smirking like half of americans think that's ludicrous (what Biden is saying) and that's all he needs, when in fact 70+% up to nearly 80% of americans in recent polls (19 gallup was 73% on a similarly worded Q and PEW in May this year 79) said they think there should be a higher emphasis on alternative sources of energy like solar/wind. It's even a clear majority among republicans by now.
I mean, yeah, you'll sometimes see some poll associated with Petroleum industry etc give a different impression by posing the question in a leading way f.e., but overall it seems pretty clear.



The problem is that in recent times the minority has been voting more consistently for a plethora of reasons, many of those by design but some also steeped in 'motivation' and/or sucking it up and voting the lesser evil. And/or ignored actual issues for some 'greater good' ("yeah, renewable energy is good but not if it also means XYZ ...")

The best chance Trump has at reelection has never been gaining more voters, but keeping people from voting for Biden one way or another while maintaining his 'base'. Trump/Republican issues would almost never win elections, if everybody voted/could vote.

It's like an NFL team running the ball every play or an NBA team using the shotclock every posession: Keep the game ugly and low scoring, thus increasing the impact of chance/freak events/one single issue or 'issue' (like this "Biden is corrupt" thing).
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Last edited by whomario : 10-23-2020 at 03:41 AM.
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Old 10-23-2020, 03:56 AM   #5034
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Originally Posted by Swaggs View Post
Biden making the comment about eliminating oil was A pretty bad move if he is trying to win PA. Lots of oil and natural gas fields in between the cities. But, I’d suspect most of those folks are not Biden voters in the first place.


It seems at best a split issue in a vacuum (recent poll f.e. had it 52/48 against fracking) with lots of softer factors also in play towards the 'green' side of things. Like how those oil and gas fields impact the local environment and quality of live factors. Far as i can tell they are a lot less remote and invisible than other fossil energy harvesting is in other regions. You could very well support it in general but be sympathetic to scaling it back some or regulating it a lot more or simply not pushing it further.

That's what happened with coal in Germany, transitions were much quicker and had much more support in areas where the negative impact was most visible (due to proximity to population centers, in this case right in the middle of them pretty much, and scope of operations) and it wasn't 'only' about obscure topics and/or economic viability.
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Last edited by whomario : 10-23-2020 at 03:58 AM.
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Old 10-23-2020, 06:49 AM   #5035
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Could this oil comment be Biden’s version of deplorables? I suspect it’s all we will hear about the next few days while millions are voting.
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Old 10-23-2020, 06:53 AM   #5036
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Didn't watch the debate. Sounds like it would have been good for Trump if this microphone rule had been in place the whole time b/c people seemed to generally like his style.
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Old 10-23-2020, 06:53 AM   #5037
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This is a good line from The Atlantic on Trump:

Quote:
“He refused to care about what voters care about—and instead insisted voters care about what he cares about.”
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Old 10-23-2020, 06:54 AM   #5038
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We need to transition away from oil and other fossil fuels has been the position of the Dems since at least Al Gore.
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Old 10-23-2020, 06:54 AM   #5039
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Originally Posted by Lathum View Post
Could this oil comment be Biden’s version of deplorables? I suspect it’s all we will hear about the next few days while millions are voting.

Kind of makes you wonder if the Trump campaign regrets spending all their ad money on his legal fees. I mean he, personally, does not regret it, of course. But the people trying to help him win would probably love to run more ads right about now.
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Old 10-23-2020, 06:56 AM   #5040
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Dola:

And if our country is such that the idea of transitioning away from fossil fuels and developing jobs in renewable energy is still so toxic that you can't win an election by even suggesting it, then we are so naïve about the way the world actually works that we deserve to be ruled by the GOP.
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Old 10-23-2020, 07:32 AM   #5041
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We need to transition away from oil and other fossil fuels has been the position of the Dems since at least Al Gore.

you're considerably sharper than I am with this stuff, but I think you're mistaken if you don't think the Trump campaign won't take snippets of what Joe said and run them in key areas. Assuming they have the money, of course.
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Old 10-23-2020, 07:33 AM   #5042
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Originally Posted by albionmoonlight View Post
Dola:

And if our country is such that the idea of transitioning away from fossil fuels and developing jobs in renewable energy is still so toxic that you can't win an election by even suggesting it, then we are so naïve about the way the world actually works that we deserve to be ruled by the GOP.

Agreed. If the D’s lose because of that comment then fuck us all. We will get what we deserve and are doomed.

Last edited by Galaril : 10-23-2020 at 07:34 AM.
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Old 10-23-2020, 07:34 AM   #5043
Brian Swartz
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Originally Posted by CrimsonFox
It's so stupid, thoughtless, pointless shows absence of thought or analysis. I've not heard of "New Green Deal until this past week where I heard phrases like the above saying "It was bad and will cost our state"

I've been hearing about it since shortly after AOC's class was elected and more intelligently than the way you describe. There's no question the nation's worst is on full display during silly season, but I'd also suggest that perhaps some of this is due to what news and commentary you choose to consume.
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Old 10-23-2020, 08:01 AM   #5044
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No kidding. My office used to be on East Kemper Rd, not far from the mall. I lived in Madeira, loved it there.

East side, Anderson. Used to be overt there a good bit when I was a DM for Aldi
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Old 10-23-2020, 08:25 AM   #5045
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Originally Posted by CrimsonFox View Post
I'm so sick of people in general taking potshots at AOC. She's one of 400+ house members. She doesn't say anything other than what hundreds of people have said before and usually very common sense arguments. IS it because she's a woman? Because she's young? Because she's a democrat? All at once?

Being a woman that speaks on things that men usually speak about I think is the issue. But really if your argument is ever to put AOC down, then you are fucking stupid.

Granted I admit it IS something shocking and new to have a democrat actually fight for anything

Main thing missing here is that she is articulate, effective, and smart. Couple those with the other demographics and policy matters we associate with her, and she's a major existential threat to the right. Thus, the teardown has to occur as quickly as possible. In much the same way they knew Hillary Clinton was the likely standard bearer for the Democratic party (or "Democrat party" as they'd surely slur) they can see the writing on the wall. AOC has a wide following already, far surpassing her actual station in politics, and she has the cunning to stretch it out far beyond 15 minutes - that is obvious.

So, demonize her as a communist. Slander the "Green New Deal" based on any tiny element it contains. Dig up videos of her having fun as a teenager. Find a tiny thing she said here or there that doesn't hold up out of context. Drum up some innuendo about sexual mores. Find something that felt vaguely "too casual" for the moment. Have at it. Plenty will stick. Not to worry. Your base consists of gullible idiots, and there are plenty more who are persuadable. They'll come around.

This is the gameplan. She's a target.
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Old 10-23-2020, 08:41 AM   #5046
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My biggest frustration with Biden is that he just doesn't have that on-your-feet killer instinct. It's really not all that important a skill in actually holding office, but in being an effective debater - it really helps.

Just think how effective it would have been had he just gotten out some pretty easy retorts to stuff we all knew was coming:

- The reason we didn't do [that thing] when we were in office is because your party, the Republicans, blocked everything we wanted to pass. Not a single R voted to expand health care to millions of Americans. None would support fair immigration reform. None would get behind criminal justice changes and common sense gun laws. None of them. That's why in 2020 we have to get out and vote, all the way down the ticket.

- You and your operatives, running around in every country where you have huge business dealings, now drum up this bogus story about my son. You know it's nonsense, that's why you sat on it until now... trying to pull a fast one. It won't work. Americans see this for what it is, a stunt, malarkey. There's nothing there...but we do know that every time you claim someone else is a criminal, it's because you and the businesses that you haven't bankrupted yet are actually out there doing those crimes.

-Your virus math just doesn't make any sense. You are so proud about shutting down some travel from China, but we were way behind many other countries in doing that. You pull a Dr. Fauci comment from January, pre-spread, about wearing masks - where were you when everyone understood masks were super-important? At the last debate you and your whole team stormed in and refused to wear masks, even after knowing you had all been exposed. At every turn, instead of leading Americans through the crisis, you backed away and said you take no responsibility. Said it would just go away. THAT is why we have hundreds of thousands of dead Americans... you couldn't bear to do the right thing when we needed you to.



Shit, I'm not even in pure politics, and I can conjure this shit up typing on a message board. He says any one of these, even with a stumble here and there, and it's gold.

Instead, we get a lot of missed punchlines... the thing about dead teachers could have been good, but he didn't say "Mr. Trump thinks that not too many teachers will die..." to make it clear what he was talking about. You have to personalize a zinger like that.

The joking "Abraham Lincoln" could have been really funny... if he had just delivered it with the obvious sneer "heh, Abe Lincoln over here..." - that's a fucking layup. Instead, he booted it, too, my entire family was confused and so was Trump, it was so poorly executed.

C'mon man, be better at this.
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Old 10-23-2020, 08:54 AM   #5047
spleen1015
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I agree with you on all of that QS.

You know what Trump is coming into the debate armed with. It seems so easy to have rebuttals for all of it. I was hoping more 'zingers' to 'put Trump in place'. Fight fire with fire.

I think Biden is trying to do this the 'old' day, politic as a gentleman.
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Old 10-23-2020, 09:03 AM   #5048
ISiddiqui
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Some people aren't zinger debate people. This is who Joe Biden is. He's a Town Hall sort of person. You aren't going to change him now.
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Old 10-23-2020, 09:09 AM   #5049
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East side, Anderson. Used to be overt there a good bit when I was a DM for Aldi

It's still sort of sad that as many of us that there are in this area, that we haven't crossed paths. The only time we were planning to get together Jared Lorenzen (RIP) broke his leg that was that.
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Old 10-23-2020, 09:13 AM   #5050
PilotMan
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Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Seven miles up
Biden is still a terrible candidate, but he's the candidate we have, and the one that was chosen, so it is what it is now.
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He's just like if Snow White was competitive, horny, and capable of beating the shit out of anyone that called her Pops.

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