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Old 09-25-2020, 06:32 AM   #28201
Edward64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarcone View Post
Im going to play the "what if" game.

What if Trump has secretly been amassing a bunch of generals with his same mind set? What if he loses and refuses to leave and the military steps in and backs him? Then what?

The military stepping in to back Trump after a loss is IMO the least likely scenario.
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Old 09-25-2020, 06:35 AM   #28202
Edward64
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I'm surprised there hasn't been a second stimulus by now but with how the market is tanking, good move by Pelosi to bring it up again and trying to re-start the conversation. It didn't seem that the Dems were pushing hard to continue discussions (e.g. continuously blasting the GOP publically), not sure why.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/24/coro...lief-bill.html
Quote:
House Democrats are preparing a new, smaller coronavirus relief package expected to cost about $2.4 trillion as they try to forge ahead with talks with the Trump administration, a person familiar with the plans said Thursday.

The bill would include enhanced unemployment insurance, direct payments to Americans, Paycheck Protection Program small-business loan funding and aid to airlines, among other provisions, the person said. To reach the price tag, Democrats would chop roughly $1 trillion from their previous proposal for a fifth pandemic aid plan.
:
:
The GOP put together a scaled-back bill after a measure costing about $1 trillion that they released in July failed to lead to a bipartisan breakthrough.

The discussions about a relief proposal come as concerns grow about the potential for the U.S. economic recovery, boosted by the trillions in relief Congress has passed this year, to falter. Federal Reserve Chairman Jerome Powell, among other economic experts, has warned the economy could take a hit without more fiscal stimulus.

Last edited by Edward64 : 09-25-2020 at 06:36 AM.
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Old 09-25-2020, 07:07 AM   #28203
Lathum
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Originally Posted by tarcone View Post
Im going to play the "what if" game.

What if Trump has secretly been amassing a bunch of generals with his same mind set? What if he loses and refuses to leave and the military steps in and backs him? Then what?

When has Trump ever shown any ability to organize anything even closely related to something of this scale. It’s just not how his brain works.
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Old 09-25-2020, 07:15 AM   #28204
Ksyrup
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It's not Trump we need to worry about, it's the people around him. Trump is just the carnival barker keeping us occupied/entertained/scared while others do the heavy lifting. If anything, he hurts his/their cause as much as he has enabled them to get this far.
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Old 09-25-2020, 07:29 AM   #28205
albionmoonlight
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It won't be the military.

If it happens, it will be the glorified meter maids working for the Border Patrol along with local yokel Sheriffs.

Last edited by albionmoonlight : 09-25-2020 at 07:29 AM.
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Old 09-25-2020, 07:33 AM   #28206
Galaril
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Exactly. The military just has to do nothing and let Trump and his “ federal agents and eventually states national guards to quell all protests which this time won’t be just “ antifa”. I will never accept Trump as President after the way he has discredited the military and pissed on our constitution for example messing with mail in ballots/election. My wife and I plan on protesting and resisting (legally) any way we can. We have signed up in our conservative county to be election ballot judges for the fours days during the voting here in CO.

Last edited by Galaril : 09-25-2020 at 07:35 AM.
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Old 09-25-2020, 07:45 AM   #28207
JPhillips
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Originally Posted by Edward64 View Post
It didn't seem that the Dems were pushing hard to continue discussions (e.g. continuously blasting the GOP publically), not sure why.

Because Dems have the attention span of a kitten. They are genetically unable to voice an opinion for more than 72 hours.
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Old 09-25-2020, 07:54 AM   #28208
miked
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My employer has decided not to give us a tax holiday as they recognize it is just a deferral and would mean double the withholding in January. They have stated it is up to congress to pass legislation to address the holiday.
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Old 09-25-2020, 07:58 AM   #28209
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My employer said they weren't doing the tax holiday either.
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Old 09-25-2020, 08:00 AM   #28210
Galaril
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My employer said they weren't doing the tax holiday either.

Same here.
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Old 09-25-2020, 08:01 AM   #28211
spleen1015
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I haven't heard anything from my employer but my check on Friday which included the last week of August and the first week of September didn't change. So, I assume they aren't doing it either.

We were putting it in savings if they did anyway, but I am glad it appears they're not doing it.
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Old 09-25-2020, 08:58 AM   #28212
ISiddiqui
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Being a federal employee I had no choice in the matter. So I'm just going to keep it in my account knowing it'll have to be paid back from Jan-Apr. Though it's annoying.
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Old 09-25-2020, 09:15 AM   #28213
JPhillips
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My employer said they weren't doing the tax holiday either.

Me, too. They sent us an email saying it would be difficult to do and we'd all be mad next year when we had to pay it back. I was very happy with that decision.
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Old 09-25-2020, 10:31 AM   #28214
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Publicly traded firms paid dividends, bought their own stock after receiving PPP loans to pay employees



This is partially why I favored a UBI as the preferred stimulus/virus relief payment method.
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Old 09-25-2020, 11:49 AM   #28215
JPhillips
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The CARES Act worked really well, but the PPP was a giant disaster and was too often used for things like the above.
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Old 09-25-2020, 12:58 PM   #28216
sterlingice
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Originally Posted by albionmoonlight View Post
It won't be the military.

If it happens, it will be the glorified meter maids working for the Border Patrol along with local yokel Sheriffs.

I think the military showed back a couple of months ago that they have no interest in backing him doing something crazy like this. They had no interest in doing martial law in June and I'm fairly certain (as much as anything these days) they won't do it for thee election.

SI
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Old 09-25-2020, 12:59 PM   #28217
sterlingice
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Originally Posted by Kodos View Post
My employer said they weren't doing the tax holiday either.

Same

SI
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Old 09-25-2020, 01:14 PM   #28218
Ksyrup
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Polling or trolling?

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Old 09-25-2020, 02:16 PM   #28219
albionmoonlight
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This is what I keep coming back to.

Trump won't ever say, "I lost, but let me still be the President." That would be easy to oppose.

If he fights, he will say "I won."

And all of the GOP politicians promising to honor the election results will simply point out that "he won, so we are honoring the election results" when they support the coup.

He got his followers to reject germ theory. They did that immediately and without hesitation as soon as he told them to.

Do we really think that they will suddenly find their spine and reject something as fuzzy as election results?
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Old 09-25-2020, 02:36 PM   #28220
tarcone
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I hate to say this, and as a white, 53 year old male that gets away with most shit, I have never had more anxiety over a presidential election than this.

Normally, Im an optimistic guy, but this federal BS has my knees knocking. The pure insanity of a president not willing to observe what the people want, be it the electoral or college or popular opinion has me tremendously worried, thus my "what if" uestion.

AND I AM THE KING OF RUN ON SENTENCES. since 1967.
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Old 09-25-2020, 02:37 PM   #28221
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Originally Posted by albionmoonlight View Post



This is what I keep coming back to.

Trump won't ever say, "I lost, but let me still be the President." That would be easy to oppose.

If he fights, he will say "I won."

And all of the GOP politicians promising to honor the election results will simply point out that "he won, so we are honoring the election results" when they support the coup.

He got his followers to reject germ theory. They did that immediately and without hesitation as soon as he told them to.

Do we really think that they will suddenly find their spine and reject something as fuzzy as election results?

He still tells people he won the popular vote in 2016 so this isn't a stretch.
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Old 09-25-2020, 02:53 PM   #28222
sterlingice
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Originally Posted by albionmoonlight View Post
I don't think people understand that a coup won't be Donald Trump going, "I won't leave and you can't make me." It would be him declaring victory, proceeding to act as though he won, creating a difference of political opinion about who is president as of January 20th. https://t.co/3A28ZNraBY
— Alexandra Erin (@AlexandraErin) September 25, 2020


This is what I keep coming back to.

Trump won't ever say, "I lost, but let me still be the President." That would be easy to oppose.

If he fights, he will say "I won."

And all of the GOP politicians promising to honor the election results will simply point out that "he won, so we are honoring the election results" when they support the coup.

He got his followers to reject germ theory. They did that immediately and without hesitation as soon as he told them to.

Do we really think that they will suddenly find their spine and reject something as fuzzy as election results?

Yup. They will pick the exact moment(s) that Trump is actually up in the election results and try to freeze that moment(s) in time as the REAL RESULTS. Never mind that there are still thousands or millions of ballots out there to be counted. Votes every bit as legitimate as those counted in person or ahead of time.

SI
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Old 09-25-2020, 02:55 PM   #28223
tarcone
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Come on 18-29 year olds, put your money where your mouth is.
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Old 09-25-2020, 03:43 PM   #28224
JPhillips
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Originally Posted by sterlingice View Post
Yup. They will pick the exact moment(s) that Trump is actually up in the election results and try to freeze that moment(s) in time as the REAL RESULTS. Never mind that there are still thousands or millions of ballots out there to be counted. Votes every bit as legitimate as those counted in person or ahead of time.

SI

Don Jr. says basically this.

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Old 09-25-2020, 04:07 PM   #28225
albionmoonlight
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Don Jr. not looking too healthy
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Old 09-25-2020, 04:18 PM   #28226
JPhillips
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Very Act 3 in a drug kingpin movie vibe.
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Old 09-25-2020, 04:20 PM   #28227
thesloppy
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We talk about the conflict with Don, but it's probably even worse for Junior and Eric. This is probably the most attention & power that either of them have ever had, but it involves practically working.
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Old 09-25-2020, 04:24 PM   #28228
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Some will, some won't. I think this really highlights the disconnect between us, because it's clear that you don't understand the point of view I've been describing. A one-time bailout is not going to be considered to be nearly as bad by these people as a program that required citizens to buy a product, increased government control over a major industry, imposed required employee benefits on businesses, etc. It's not even close enough to the same thing to be considered apples to oranges.

They were generally against the Bush/Obama stimulus packages, wanted shorter COVID restrictions and had very mixed opinions on CARES objecting to some particulars such as the unemployment benefit, but those things simply are not remotely in the same category as the ACA.

No, it's just moving the goalposts. They have proven time and time again that they don't believe in any of that shit.
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Old 09-25-2020, 04:36 PM   #28229
Brian Swartz
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There's no moving the goalposts, I specifically provided examples that illustrate the distinctions. When you're not even willing to engage with the distinctions, you're arguing against a caricature not against reality. It's positively astounding to me, although perhaps it shouldn't be, how determined some people are to do that while not realizing how upset they get when people use precisely the same logic against positions they favor.

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Old 09-25-2020, 04:39 PM   #28230
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Originally Posted by sterlingice View Post
Yup. They will pick the exact moment(s) that Trump is actually up in the election results and try to freeze that moment(s) in time as the REAL RESULTS. Never mind that there are still thousands or millions of ballots out there to be counted. Votes every bit as legitimate as those counted in person or ahead of time.

SI

I keep hearing this but most mail-in ballots that are received before election day are counted along with the regular ballots. So it would only be ballots mailed in at the last minute which wouldn't be on the election night screen.

Sure it's a bigger portion than in previous years, but I feel like most people are going to get their ballots in early. There are very few undecideds unlike 2016. And the scare of the postal service delaying mail has maybe pushed more people to send in their ballot early (which would be a hilarious backfire by Republicans).

Maybe that's just optimism on my end.
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Old 09-25-2020, 04:46 PM   #28231
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There's no moving the goalposts, I specifically provided examples that illustrate the distinctions. When you're not even willing to engage with the distinctions, you're arguing against a caricature not against reality. It's positively astounding to me, although perhaps it shouldn't be, how determined some people are to do that while not realizing how upset they get when people use precisely the same logic against positions they favor.

You literally argued that Trump voters do not want regulation of the health care industry and don't believe it is a right. Trump this year has heavily regulated the health care industry and provided free care to those who don't have access to it. He just announced mailing $200 gift cards to every Senior.

Your "distinction" is to state that all these things he has done don't count because I guess it's a "one-time thing" (which there is no evidence of being the case). It's moving goalposts and changing the stance because it is being done by Trump and not Obama. These people would be apocalyptic at Obama sending out $200 cards.
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Old 09-25-2020, 04:48 PM   #28232
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Also the Favored Nations Order is not a "one-time thing". It is heavily regulating the pharmaceutical industry and essentially price fixing.
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Old 09-25-2020, 04:48 PM   #28233
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These people would be apocalyptic at Obama sending out $200 cards.

That is most definitely true.
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Old 09-25-2020, 04:49 PM   #28234
GrantDawg
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Right before an election? Torches and pitchforks.

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Old 09-25-2020, 05:01 PM   #28235
thesloppy
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Oregon, the state with the longest record of voting entirely by mail, doesn't even begin opening & counting ballots until 11pm Eastern, as far as I know.

I hope that will actually work against any kind of real-time declaration of victory on Nov. 3rd.
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Old 09-25-2020, 05:06 PM   #28236
JPhillips
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Originally Posted by RainMaker View Post
I keep hearing this but most mail-in ballots that are received before election day are counted along with the regular ballots. So it would only be ballots mailed in at the last minute which wouldn't be on the election night screen.

Sure it's a bigger portion than in previous years, but I feel like most people are going to get their ballots in early. There are very few undecideds unlike 2016. And the scare of the postal service delaying mail has maybe pushed more people to send in their ballot early (which would be a hilarious backfire by Republicans).

Maybe that's just optimism on my end.

Not all states are legally permitted to start the count early.
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Old 09-25-2020, 06:13 PM   #28237
Brian Swartz
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Originally Posted by RainMaker
our "distinction" is to state that all these things he has done don't count because I guess it's a "one-time thing" (which there is no evidence of being the case). It's moving goalposts and changing the stance because it is being done by Trump and not Obama. These people would be apocalyptic at Obama sending out $200 cards.

Not true. I specifically used examples of the Bush and Obama stimulus packages, which provoked similar responses despite the party in power being different - there was some bias in them of course because political affiliation does have an effect, but it wasn't a night-and-day difference.

You said there's no evidence of this being a one-time thing. Of course there is. That's literally what it is. It's doesn't say this will be done every year or every month or every quarter. It's not a permanent change in law.

Another part of the distinction, as mentioned, is the fact that we are in a pandemic. Responses to CARES, to the restrictions, to pretty much every other darn thing have shifted dramatically among all political groups from what they typically are during relatively normal times. It is ludicrous to pretend otherwhise.

I do agree with you that they would have reacted much differently to Obama doing this on on the cusp of an election. There's clearly political expediency going on there. At the same time, there's just no comparison between a $200 giveaway during a pandemic and the ACA.
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Old 09-25-2020, 06:40 PM   #28238
sterlingice
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I keep hearing this but most mail-in ballots that are received before election day are counted along with the regular ballots. So it would only be ballots mailed in at the last minute which wouldn't be on the election night screen.

Sure it's a bigger portion than in previous years, but I feel like most people are going to get their ballots in early. There are very few undecideds unlike 2016. And the scare of the postal service delaying mail has maybe pushed more people to send in their ballot early (which would be a hilarious backfire by Republicans).

Maybe that's just optimism on my end.

That's one of the hopes I have, as well - I think people are going to be voting early precisely because of these scares. There might not be a time when Trump actually leads in the states he needs to. There's no perfect time to call for a win if you're never ahead. That said, I wouldn't bank on it.

SI
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Old 09-25-2020, 06:57 PM   #28239
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That's one of the hopes I have, as well - I think people are going to be voting early precisely because of these scares. There might not be a time when Trump actually leads in the states he needs to. There's no perfect time to call for a win if you're never ahead. That said, I wouldn't bank on it.

SI

That's what Barr's working on. Shit like the Luzerne County stunt are done to call all the voting into question.
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Old 09-26-2020, 03:13 AM   #28240
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Don Jr. says basically this.


When I see shit like this, I start to think that the only thing that might keep me from voting on election day is because I get arrested for punching some dumb motherfucker in the mouth on the way in because he decided to get in my way.

My county typically goes 90% Republican, just FYI. And yet I can completely see stupid fuckers taking this seriously to keep the one Asian family, the 5 Latinos and the 2 black guys from voting blue twice.
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Old 09-26-2020, 09:14 AM   #28241
Lathum
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Definitely going to be some people shot on Election Day.
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Old 09-26-2020, 09:54 AM   #28242
GrantDawg
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BiDeN IS iN MEntAlly dEcLIne:
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Old 09-26-2020, 10:19 AM   #28243
BYU 14
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Definitely going to be some people shot on Election Day.

I honestly hope that is not the case, no matter how it goes, but when you have leadership that stokes the flames the way he does, it is sadly a strong possibility.
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Old 09-26-2020, 10:40 AM   #28244
QuikSand
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Originally Posted by AlexandraErin
I don't think people understand that a coup won't be Donald Trump going, "I won't leave and you can't make me." It would be him declaring victory, proceeding to act as though he won, creating a difference of political opinion about who is president as of January 20th.

Right. That is where we are headed, and when he 100% declares victory "on election night" as he looks to be ahead in a variety of swing states based on in-person voting counted so far (not not all the mailed-in ballots having been counted yet), that will be the specific point in time that the moths remember. Suddenly the Americans who voted by other fully legal means will be criminals, illegals, fraudsters, and the like, and the Trumpster moths will argue with clear throats that those voters should all be ignored, if not prosecuted.

I am mortified at the prospect of "who has the guns in the right place" becoming what matters. But if you're not afraid of that as a potential outcome here, you're whistling past the graveyard.

Last edited by QuikSand : 09-26-2020 at 10:41 AM.
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Old 09-26-2020, 11:06 AM   #28245
Thomkal
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BiDeN IS iN MEntAlly dEcLIne:


Saw a good one on Twitter this football Saturday morning from the MediasTouch guys. Opens with full football stadiums full of cheering fans and then shows two together with the number 100,000 on each, the capacity of the stadiums...and how many have died from COVID-19 so far
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Old 09-26-2020, 11:19 AM   #28246
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A federal judge has ruled, in a case that might give precedent to other Trump appointees, that the the commisioner of the Bureau of Land Management, served unlawfully for 400+ days by not being confirmed by the Senate and that all actions he undertook may not be legal either. Very happy to see this because the guy's done some pretty horrible things as Commisioner and is as racist and conspiracy-filled as Trump it looks like:

Judge removes Trump’s public lands boss, William Perry Pendley, after governor sued – The Colorado Sun
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Old 09-26-2020, 11:45 AM   #28247
sterlingice
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomkal View Post
A federal judge has ruled, in a case that might give precedent to other Trump appointees, that the the commisioner of the Bureau of Land Management, served unlawfully for 400+ days by not being confirmed by the Senate and that all actions he undertook may not be legal either. Very happy to see this because the guy's done some pretty horrible things as Commisioner and is as racist and conspiracy-filled as Trump it looks like:

Judge removes Trump’s public lands boss, William Perry Pendley, after governor sued – The Colorado Sun

That's really promising if it stands. We need to be fix the damage done by Trump's cadre of "so-and-so serving with the duties of a (position that's supposed to be confirmed)" that is such a naked end around of Congress.

SI
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Last edited by sterlingice : 09-26-2020 at 11:47 AM.
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Old 09-26-2020, 12:23 PM   #28248
JPhillips
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Turns out Dems could do more than tweet if they really wanted to.
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Old 09-27-2020, 04:34 PM   #28249
JPhillips
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Somehow the NYTimes got Trump's tax returns. A lot is going to come out, but here's the first morsel.

Quote:
Trump paid just $750 in federal income taxes in 2016, the year he won. He paid just $750 in 2017, his first year in office. And he paid no income taxes in 10 of the previous 15 years.
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Old 09-27-2020, 04:34 PM   #28250
albionmoonlight
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Sigh.

"You mean he's corrupt and sketchy? We had no idea."

Well that will certainly change the vote of literally anyone.

(It won't actually change the vote of literally anyone)
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