05-31-2018, 10:58 PM | #651 |
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05-31-2018, 10:59 PM | #652 |
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Poor LeBron. Smith was lost.
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05-31-2018, 11:04 PM | #653 |
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Draymond Green is the most unclassy athlete in sports. As likable as Curry is Draymond just makes the Warriors tough to stomach. I wish Lebron would just put him in a headlock and choke him out.
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05-31-2018, 11:12 PM | #654 |
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Smith is a negative player on the offensive and defensive end. Not talking about a lock down defender here. So yeah, I’d rather see the guy who is a positive on one end of the floor get more minutes, I’d think. And that’s before you factor in that Smith is one of the biggest boneheads the league has ever seen. |
05-31-2018, 11:46 PM | #655 | |
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I don't know. Maybe they should have Korver out there more. I thought the gameplan was good and it took some sketchy shit at the end for them to lose. |
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06-01-2018, 04:25 AM | #656 |
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The JR finish to regulation is almost a perfect summary of the Cav's season.
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06-01-2018, 05:25 AM | #657 |
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I understand the rule was correctly applied in that they can review and overturn a judgment call once they decide to first review if the defender is in the restricted area. But is there, or shouldn't there be, some standard for what would prompt them to first review the restricted area part of that call? LeBron was a foot outside of it and it wasn't close live.
The ref who initially signaled charge had a perfect view of in/out and could see the space in between LeBron and the circle, while the ref who wanted to call it a block had a mass of players in his way and it would be harder to determine in/out from the perspective he had. |
06-01-2018, 10:36 AM | #658 |
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I get that bad calls happen, but it's the quantity and process that hurts at the end of the game:
1. Lebron does a clean strip on KD and it's called a shooting foul. 2. Then Looney hits Lebron's arm on a strip and it isn't called. 1. James hacked on his layup with 32 seconds and it isn't called. 2. Curry gets hacked on his layup with 23 seconds left and it is called. Then, of course, you have the unprecedented reversal in the finals of the charge to the block not using the restricted area as the reason. But what's crazy to me is almost the exact plays happened back to back and GS got both sets of calls. Either you are letting them play and let both strip attempts go (esp since Lebron's wasn't even a foul) or you call both. Same with the and-1 on the layups. Either both are fouls or neither are. It's crazy that GS got all four "questionable" calls in the last minute. That's a lot for anyone to overcome. The bad refereeing makes it very difficult to fully invest in these NBA playoff games. I don't even really have a side (nor did I bet either) and seeing every call go against the Cavs down the stretch when they are such serious underdogs is hard to stomach. Last edited by Arles : 06-01-2018 at 10:37 AM. |
06-01-2018, 11:32 AM | #659 |
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Refs have areas they watch. It is bad form to call something in anothers area. It happens, but it shouldnt very often.
The block/charge call should have been left alone as it was in the refs area that called the charge.
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06-01-2018, 12:00 PM | #660 |
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I felt the strips were the more egregious issue, as Cleveland clearly got screwed on both ends of that back-to-back sequence, and it had a major impact on the score. The block/charge review ended up with the correct call being made (even if it was super close), so sure you could argue that it shouldn't have been reviewable but that's arguing over technicalities rather than the basketball play at hand.
As for JR Smith... woof! Terrible plays at the end of both halves. Not getting a Christmas card from 'Bron 'Bron this year.
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06-01-2018, 12:05 PM | #661 |
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There was also the completely clean strip of Durant by Hill they called in OT that opened the scoring run for the Warriors.
The Cavs probably weren’t going to win that OT no matter what happened, but given everything else that went on at the end of the fourth it felt particularly egregious. |
06-01-2018, 01:48 PM | #662 |
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I've had season tickets for over 10 years and watch a lot of NBA basketball. I've never seen the block/charge call reversed on replay review before. I'm sure there is a scenario where it's happened, but it's incredibly rare.
The other odd part was Lebron wasn't even close to the restricted circle so I'm not sure why they had to review it. And even upon review there is no way you can overturn that call. It's a 50/50 call at best. The whole thing was really sketchy. |
06-01-2018, 01:55 PM | #663 |
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Like they needed to review if Lebron was in the restricted area?
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06-01-2018, 01:55 PM | #664 |
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It's really weird to be on the good side of a bunch of bad calls. Doesn't feel great, to be honest.
I do think the correct call ended up being made on the charge, but I also wholeheartedly agree that it A) should never have been reviewed, and B) despite thinking that it WAS a blocking foul you still can't overturn that because it was close enough. |
06-01-2018, 02:13 PM | #665 |
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I thought it was a block watching the play live, but I don't see how you overturn what was called live with that replay. And saying this has never happened in the history of the playoffs may be true, but the review rule has only been in place in the last 5 seasons, so not a huge sample size.
As for the bad calls, there were bad calls both ways throughout the game. It's unfortunate that these were at the end of a close game. Cleveland had a great chance to win when Smith got the rebound. If he goes back up with it, maybe he makes the shot, maybe he gets fouled. But to not get a shot up is terrible. You've got to know time and score. With under 5 seconds left and a tie game, you get an offensive rebound off the free throw, you have to take it back up, especially with the confusion that ensued due to no one expecting Hill to miss. Smith could've had a wide open 18 footer for the win. If he was trying to call a timeout, that should've happened right away. Just a brain fart that really cost his team a good chance to win. |
06-01-2018, 02:30 PM | #666 |
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I'm trying to figure out what the "conspiracy" would be anyways. If they were being completely honest the league wants/needs Cleveland to win game 1 a lot more than what happened. Seems more like bad officiating (both ways) than anything. I admit I am pulling for Cleveland (on a side note it's interesting that Cleveland and Lebron appear to be the fan favorites everywhere outside of the Bay) but much like I see a Mizzou game with very slanted glasses it seems like the internet is doing the same thing with this one.
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06-01-2018, 02:42 PM | #667 | |
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There is a carry-over narrative from the end of the Houston series in which there were several "missed" calls against Houston in the second half of both Games 6 and 7, specifically with regard to the Warriors playing hard, aggressive defense and not being called for fouls. I'm a huge Warriors fan, and even I felt that the Warriors were the beneficiaries of some friendly whistles (or lack thereof) in both those games. |
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06-01-2018, 02:43 PM | #668 | |
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From a FiveThirtyEight article: 9/32 (28.1%) reviews have been overturned. Which is way more than I would have expected. |
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06-01-2018, 02:45 PM | #669 | |
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I'm not talking about calls in general being overturned. I'm talking about reviewing for the restricted area and then changing the block/charge. I think I saw it's happened 3 times before. |
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06-01-2018, 03:30 PM | #670 |
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The reason JR was able to get that rebound is they absolutely mauled Jeff Green.
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06-01-2018, 03:45 PM | #671 |
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Rainmaker you are being ridiculous in your bias. That photo being the worst example. Because of course draymond would rather take out a player than actually try and get the ball, just look at it in real time.
Anyways, from my gym/ymca downtown today. Guess shopping at Nike helps the sole. 2BC598C4-316B-4A12-B920-1E9A19D8F537.jpg Last edited by AENeuman : 06-01-2018 at 03:48 PM. |
06-01-2018, 03:50 PM | #672 |
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I don't care who wins the series. I have no bias toward either team. The officiating at the end of that game was a complete farce. It sucks to have a really good game marred by garbage like that.
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06-01-2018, 03:52 PM | #673 | ||
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Quote:
From the article: Quote:
Article Link. |
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06-01-2018, 04:13 PM | #674 | |
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Quote:
(The block/charge overturn was ridiculous. The idea that you can go to the monitor only if a technical detail is in dispute, but that then all factors are reviewable is a ridiculous double standard and it was stretched to the point of absurdity in a very high profile moment last night.) Last edited by BishopMVP : 06-01-2018 at 04:14 PM. |
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06-01-2018, 04:26 PM | #675 | |
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That's interesting. So 9 times in about 3000 games it's been overturned. Incredibly rare to see. |
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06-01-2018, 04:36 PM | #676 | |
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Yeah, doesn't happen often. They did mention "in the waning moments of a close game," but I can't imagine there's that many more throughout the game. I was still surprised that it's overturned as often as that when it DOES get reviewed though. I guess they only review the ones that are close, so higher hit rate? Last edited by Vince, Pt. II : 06-01-2018 at 04:40 PM. |
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06-01-2018, 04:38 PM | #677 |
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I guess I'm confused why the review was triggered in the first place. It's supposed to be for the restricted circle but Lebron was nowhere near that.
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06-01-2018, 04:53 PM | #678 | |
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I think you HAVE to go right back up with it when you're under the hoop - there's just not enough time left otherwise. |
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06-01-2018, 04:56 PM | #679 |
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Did the ref with the obstructed view who initially called it a block think LeBron was in the circle? You can see the ref with the best vantage point hesitate mid charge call, and from his angle you could certainly tell LBJ was out of the restricted area, but they might've agreed to go to the monitor as a professional courtesy to not show up the other ref.
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06-01-2018, 05:27 PM | #680 |
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https://blog.janek.com/jr-smiths-blu...s-sales-echoes
Interesting blog post comparing the JR Smith brain fart last night with parallels in sales situations.
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06-01-2018, 05:38 PM | #681 | |
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But remember, a lot of the overturns were the player was in the restricted area when the charge was called (or he was not in when a block was called). I'm guessing the amount is extremely small for no change due to the restricted area but instead a reversal for the subjective block/charge timing. |
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06-01-2018, 05:49 PM | #682 |
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There's definitely enough time to call timeout & set up a play for a no-lose last shot. There's also enough time for a kickout jump shot if the players are prepared for the scenario - even after JR dribbles out to the 3 pt line if he passed to LeBron LeBron would've had a 28 foot jumper for the win.
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06-01-2018, 06:25 PM | #683 | |||
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Fair, I forgot they had a timeout left. Quote:
Even though I quoted this post before, I somehow missed this part. I think you have to enable everything in that review to be actionable. How stupid would it be to show you not only have evidence that something was done illegally, you are looking right at it...but you can't do anything about it because you weren't specifically looking for THAT error? Quote:
True. That has to be an extremely low occurrence. |
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06-01-2018, 06:44 PM | #684 | |
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I agree you don't want to leave time on the clock for GS, but you take what you can get and that was a gift. If you want to think he had the time to process what was happening, when he dribbled out towards the 3, he should've faked a pass to Lebron, then taken a 15-18 footer or called a timeout. Last edited by rjolley : 06-01-2018 at 06:48 PM. |
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06-01-2018, 07:56 PM | #685 | |
Wolverine Studios
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JR isn't processing anything in 5 seconds. Don't forget he's the guy who walked off the court to hug Jason Terry in the middle of an inbounds play. I think Lue deserves a ton of blame for this. Why doesn't Lue call a timeout when he realizes Smith has no clue what is going on? Even better why is Smith even in the game at that point? It was equally as plausible that Hill would make the FT and then Smith would foul Curry on a last second three to lose the game that way or would foul Curry on the inbound thinking they were down one. Admit it...you can realistically see any of those scenarios playing out with JR. Last edited by Gary Gorski : 06-01-2018 at 07:56 PM. |
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06-01-2018, 08:04 PM | #686 |
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He'd also tried to jump a pass and gave Steph an open 35 footer he swished at the buzzer all of 2 quarters before. #FreeCedi
Just in case anyone living under a rock hasn't seen it, that's the best LeBron gif ever Joseph Milord on Twitter: "LeBron really picked up his purse like he's Viola Davis https://t.co/LRqJgugCTe" |
06-01-2018, 08:25 PM | #687 | |
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Lue calling the timeout was my thought as well. I had to look it up and make sure it was allowed in the NBA. It is. However, if you have the ball in that situation and you have a veteran team and the best player on the floor, a lot of coaches will let them play it out instead of trying to set up a play. By the time Lue realized Smith was clueless to what was going on, the time had probably run out. |
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06-01-2018, 08:57 PM | #688 |
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LeBron also tried to call a timeout when he realized that JR had no clue, but it was too late at that point.
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06-01-2018, 09:28 PM | #689 |
Coordinator
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Can LeBron call the TO there or does it have to be Smith or Luke?
If he can that’s another fuck up by the refs, because he was clearly calling for it with around 0.8 on the clock. And I don’t understand why that can’t be reviewed. |
06-01-2018, 09:33 PM | #690 | |
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Except it's a really slippery slope, and I don't think any sport has got it completely right. But you're essentially saying that you can't review a judgement call unless you happen to see it as part of another review, and then how deep does it go? If there's a review to see if a game winning three is a two, and then there's an illegal screen in the corner of the play, do you wipe it off? And other sports do make this distinction. I've seen quite a few NHL reviews where there has clearly been a penalty in the build up to a goaltender interference for example, but as they are just looking for that one thing they don't wave the goal off. And there's certainly no concept of calling a PI in football if they are looking to see if the receiver maintained control all the way to the ground. I dunno, this situation just feels wrong to me. And if we can review this one judgement call, why not all the others? Why can't a coach ask the ref to take a look if a players foot was close to being out of bounds (which must happen 3 or 4 times on each single possession) and then legitimately ask if there was a foul during that possession? |
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06-02-2018, 01:49 AM | #691 |
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The flip side, (which I think might've been the impetus for this in between situation) is an out of bounds review where it obviously touched a player on Team A last, but he was equally obviously slapped on the wrist/hand by a player on Team B. Shurg, no east answers in the days of slow motion replays and judgment calls.
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06-02-2018, 09:04 AM | #692 | |
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I would love to blame Lue not calling the timeout or for having JR in the game but I can't. If you can't have JR in the game because of the possibility of him doing what he did in Game 1 (3-10 FG, 2-6 3PT, -22 +/- in addition to the screwup at the end), he probably should have been a part of the mid-season purge.
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06-02-2018, 12:09 PM | #693 | |
Wolverine Studios
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I don't know why you want Smith on the team period but I don't understand who you want to blame for Smith being in the game on the final free throws? LeBron because he's really the coach? The front office for not dumping him? Even if the front office gave Lue a knucklehead that doesn't mean he has to play him and even if for some reason LeBron insisted that Smith be on the floor at the end of a game why not have LeBron on the FT line trying to get the rebound (or I dunno - one of their really good offensive rebounders) and Smith as far away from trouble as possible? Everything about Smith on that play falls on Lue. I don't see how anyone else can be at fault for Smith being in the position to screw things up the way he did. |
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06-02-2018, 12:20 PM | #694 |
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Wasn't Smith as far away from trouble given the odds? Most likely, the free throw is made, Smith is out of the way. Next likely, regardless of who is nearest the backboard the defending team gets the rebound, Smith is out of the way. Only when a very low odds outcome happened did Smith become a factor.
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06-02-2018, 02:38 PM | #695 | |
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Given the options you presented, I blame the front office if we have to blame someone other than JR. Remember, Lue put a 6'6" JR Smith next to a 7'0" Kevin Durant on the free throw. To me that is the safest place to put him given what we saw on the Steph 35 footer. Somehow the offensive rebounding challenged Smith ended up with the rebound. If we end the play right there or the game ends with a game winning shot for Cleveland, Lue is a genius to his fans and lucky to his haters. Unfortunately for the Cavs, the play does not end there and we know what happened. To say that Lue should have known that JR would do what he did in that situation when none were predicting that JR would was he did is unfair IMO. If you aren't going to play JR because you are afraid he might do JR things, get rid of him.
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06-03-2018, 04:06 PM | #696 |
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06-03-2018, 08:07 PM | #697 |
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The required forensics into whether or not any contact is dirty or not is becoming annoying.
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06-04-2018, 04:21 PM | #698 | |
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Quote:
14-15 (Min): 28.0 MPG, 17.4 PP40, 40.3% FG, 34.7% 3s, 9.1 AP40, 3.6 TOP40 14-15 (Cha): 30.8 MPG, 22.3 PP40, 39.0% FG, 33.7% 3s, 7.8 AP40, 3.4 TOP40 15-16 (w/ Lebron: 18.2 MPG, 18.1 PP40, 43.7% FG, 35.3% 3s, 5.3 AP40, 3.0 TOP40 So, Mo was a a better 2-point shooter, 3-point shooter and had a similar per 40 number on points. The only difference was he didn't have the ball in his hand as much so his assists and turnovers were both down (per 40). For his career, Mo Williams has 5 seasons of a true shooting % over 52 - 4 of those seasons are when he played with Lebron. But, he's worse when he plays with him You can go down the list with all the players. Liggins played 12 MPG with Lebron and had a much higher TS% (48.0) and PER (7.51) than he did in New Orleans (15.5 MPG, 46% TS, 5.97 PER). Yet, he's worse with Lebron? Kevin Love's usage rate dropped from 28 (with crap in Minnesota) to 20 with Lebron. Yet, his best true shooting season has been with Lebron (61.4). So, yeah, it makes sense that if you did a projection for Love following his 28 usage season, it would be lower when he went to a championship caliber team and took 6 fewer shots a game. This kind of "advanced stats" usage drives me crazy. My final point is if you look at all the "bad" guys, it's guys like broken down Mike Miller (700 min), Liggins (750 min), Marion in his last stop, half a season of Jae Crowder, 400 min of an injured IT and 750 min of Waiters (33 games). The key guys on his teams when they arrived (Frye, Nance, Mozgov, JR, Korver and Thompson) were all better (ranging from 1.03 to 1.21). Only Love and Irving were "worse", but that has a lot to do with their usage. They both shot better with Lebron. A bunch of these guys (Miller, Marion, Liggins, Deron, Varejao, Calderon, Jefferson) shouldn't even have been in the league when they played with Lebron. The fact that they actually contributed says more about Lebron than anything. Last edited by Arles : 06-04-2018 at 04:28 PM. |
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06-04-2018, 04:31 PM | #699 |
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Can't say I disagree. Pelton has some interesting and insightful stuff sometimes. And then there's times like this when it looks like he's just making up a metric for the sake of having one, which leads to all the disclaimers in the article. I'd much rather he just said 'I don't have a good metric for this kind of question, but here's what I think' in these kinds of matters.
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06-04-2018, 05:07 PM | #700 |
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Agreed. If you look at players who have averaged more than 20 MPG for atleast half a season when they have played with Lebron in his 2nd Cleveland tour, you get these guys:
Dellavedova (0.85) Love (0.86) Irving (0.92) Wade (0.95) Shumpert (0.98) Jefferson (1.00) Korver (1.03) JR (1.06) Thompson (1.08) Jeff Green (1.19) Mozgov (1.21) Frye (1.29) So, that's 6 "got better" while 5 "got worse" and 1 stayed the same. But, if you look at the "worse" group, it is guys like Love, Irving and Wade who got much more usage with the ball away from Lebron. I'm also not sure how the Delly case worked as his clear best season was 15-16 with Lebron (11.31 PER, 52.7 TS%, 12.2 PP40). He did much worse in Milwaukee (50 TS%, 9.44 and 8.64 PER). The Wade case is also funny because he significantly declined in his TS%, PER and other efficiency numbers when Lebron left Miami. So, in essence, he had a higher SCHOENE projection system because of when he last played with Lebron Last edited by Arles : 06-04-2018 at 05:14 PM. |
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