1983 FOOL Hall of Fame Discussion

[Young Drachma]

In the interest of the common good, our deliberations will be public.

[Alan T]

The people who volunteered to be a part of the HOF committee are:

HOF:
Alan T
Dark Cloud
muns
Tasan
Kaosfere
Chief Rum
Commo Soldier

I will be posting up the stats of every player eligible who comes close to HOF material at some point today. I purposefully am going a bit below what would normally be the criteria to get into the HoF just in case we have any Kirby Pucket types out there that someone feels should get in due to some other reason. You can at least make your case for it. I'll be posting up all of the major HoF measurement scores for each player, as well as list their career stats.

In the interest of helping people understand the HOF measurements, I'll also explain what the various scores come from (ie: What is the difference between the Grey ink test and the Black ink test). Once I have all of that up, I'll hand the keys over to Dark Cloud to run with organizing the vote and discussion.

[muns]

Im looking forward to this. Should be a lot of fun

[Alan T]

It has been an absolutely crazy day for me. I'll get to work on thus stuff in a little bit. (I actually haven't had breakfast or lunch yet though, so need time for those too!)

[Alan T]

Explanation of the various Hall of Fame scores: (explanations given from Baseball-reference.com's versions of these measurements)
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Black Ink / Gray Ink

The Black ink and Gray Ink scores are based on the idea that a Hall of Famer should have been the league leader or among the league leaders in various important statistics each season. The scoring is as such:

• Batting Statistics
• Four Points for home runs, runs batted in or batting average
• Three Points for runs scored, hits or slugging percentage
• Two Points for doubles, walks or stolen bases
• One Point for games, at bats or triples

• Pitching Statistics
• Four Points for wins, earned run average or strikeouts
• Three Points for innings pitched, win-loss percentage or saves
• Two Points for complete games, lowest walks per 9 innings or lowest hits per 9 innings
• One Point for appearances, starts or shutouts

Black Ink scores are only for the league leader in each category. Gray Ink gives points for anyone in the top 10 of the various categories listed above.

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Hall of Fame Standard Test

This test gives points to each player for achieving various "milestones" during their career. It ends up working out to be roughly a score of 50 would be an average Hall of Famer. The max possible score is 100.

• Batting Statistics
• One point for each 150 hits above 1500, limit 10.
• One point for each .005 of batting average above .275, limit 9
• One point for batting over .300
• One point for each 100 runs over 900, limit 8.
• One point for scoring more than .500 runs per game.
• One point for scoring more than .644 runs per game.
• One point for each 100 rbi's over 800, limit 8.
• One point for driving in more than .500 runs per game.
• One point for driving in more than .600 runs per game.
• One point for each .025 of slugging percentage above .300, limit 10
• One point for each .010 of on-base percentage above .300, limit 10
• One point for each 200 home runs.
• One point if home runs are more than 10% of hits.
• One point if home runs are more than 20% of hits.
• One point for each 200 extra base hits over 300, limit 5.
• One point for each 200 walks over 300, limit 5.
• One point for each 100 stolen bases, limit 5.
• Defensive value: 20 points for catcher, 16 - shortstop, 14 - second base, 13 - third base, 12 - center fielder, 6 - right fielder, 3 - left fielder, 1 - first baseman, 0 - designated hitter

• Pitching Statistics
• One point for each 10 wins over 100, limit 25.
• One point for each 20 games over .500, limit 10.
• For each of the following a minimum of 500 innings is required before these points are added.
  • One point for each .013 of winning percentage above .500, limit 15.
  • One point for each .20 of ERA below 4.00, limit 10.
  • One point for each 200 strikeouts over 1000, limit 10.
  • One point for each .30 of BB/9IP below 4.00, limit 10.
  • One point for each .30 of H/9IP below 10.00, limit 10.
• One point for each 1000 innings above 1000, limit 5.
• One point for each 100 complete games above 200, limit 5. C
• One point for each 30 shutouts, limit 5.

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Hall of Fame Monitor

This is another creation of Bill James and can be used to try to judge how worthy a current active player in the league is of possibly making the Hall of Fame some day. It can also be used obviously for retired players as well however. A score of 100+ means they have a decent chance of making it into the hall, and a 130+ means they should be a lock for the Hall of Fame.

Hitting Rules

• For Batting Average, 2.5 points for each season over .300, 5.0 for over .350, 15 for over .400. Seasons are not double-counted. I require 100 games in a season to qualify for this bonus.
• For hits, 5 points for each season of 200 or more hits.
• 3 points for each season of 100 RBI's and 3 points for each season of 100 runs.
• 10 points for 50 home runs, 4 points for 40 HR, and 2 points for 30 HR.
• 2 points for 45 doubles and 1 point for 35 doubles.
• 8 points for each MVP award and 3 for each AllStar Game, and 1 point for a Rookie of the Year award.
• 2 points for a gold glove at C, SS, or 2B, and 1 point for any other gold glove.
• 6 points if they were the regular SS or C on a WS team, 5 points for 2B or CF, 3 for 3B, 2 for LF or RF, and 1 for 1B. I don't have the OF distribution, so I give 3 points for OF.
• 5 points if they were the regular SS or C on a League Championship (but not WS) team, 3 points for 2B or CF, 1 for 3B. I don't have the OF distribution, so I give 1 points for OF.
• 2 points if they were the regular SS or C on a Division Championship team (but not WS or LCS), 1 points for 2B, CF, or 3B. I don't have the OF distribution, so I give 1 points for OF.
• 6 points for leading the league in BA, 4 for HR or RBI, 3 for runs scored, 2 for hits or SB, and 1 for doubles and triples.
• 50 points for 3,500 career hits, 40 for 3,000, 15 for 2,500, and 4 for 2,000.
• 30 points for 600 career home runs, 20 for 500, 10 for 400, and 3 for 300.
• 24 points for a lifetime BA over .330, 16 if over .315, and 8 if over .300.
• For tough defensive positions, 60 for 1800 games as a catcher, 45 for 1,600 games, 30 for 1,400, and 15 for 1,200 games caught.
• 30 points for 2100 games at 2B or SS, or 15 for 1,800 games.
• 15 points for 2,000 games at 3B.
• An additional 15 points in the player has more than 2,500 games played at 2B, SS, or 3B.
• Award 15 points if the player's batting average is over .275 and they have 1,500 or more games as a 2B, SS or C.

Pitching Rules

• 15 points for each season of 30 or more wins, 10 for 25 wins, 8 for 23 wins, 6 for 20 wins, 4 for 18 wins, and 2 for 15 wins.
• 6 points for 300 strikeouts, 3 points for 250 SO, or 2 points for 200 or more strikeouts.
• 2 points for each season with 14 or more wins and a .700 winning percentage.
• 4 points for a sub-2.00 ERA, 1 point if under 3.00.
• 7 points for 40 or more saves, 4 points for 30 or more, and 1 point for 20 or more.
• 8 points for each MVP award, 5 for a Cy Young award, 3 for each AllStar Game, and 1 point for a Rookie of the Year award.
• 1 point for a gold glove.
• 1 point for each no-hitter. This is not currently included.
• 2 points for leading the league in ERA, 1 for leading in games, wins, innings, W-L%, SO, SV or SHO. Half point for leading in CG.
• 35 points for 300 or more wins, 25 for 275, 20 for 250, 15 for 225, 10 for 200, 8 for 174 and 5 for 150 wins.
• 8 points for a career W-L% over .625, 5 points for over .600, 3 points for over .575, and 1 point for over .525, min. 190 decisions.
• 10 points for a career ERA under 3.00, min 190 decisions.
• 20 points for 300 career saves and 10 points for 200 career saves.
• 30 points for 1000 career games, 20 for 850 games and 10 for 700 games.
• 20 points for more than 4,000 strikeouts, and 10 for 3,000 SO.
• 2 points for each WS start, 1 point for each relief appearance, and 2 for a win.
• 1 point for each LCS or LDS win.

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No one is required to use any of these tests or measurements as the sole deciding factor or even a factor at all of a player making it to the Hall of Fame. The explanations are given in case people do want to use these numbers, that way they can understand what the numbers likely mean.

[Alan T]

These player lists will not include anyone who retired this season (or before the season began). Since this is the first 20 years of FOOL, there will be far more names at the beginning than there will be in future seasons. I'm going to list five players at a time to try to keep all of the clutter from becoming overwhelming. I am trying to not include everything under the sun, but want to try to hit the most important stats and info. You can go and look at any retired player further in the game by going to History -> Retired Players

[Alan T]

Aaron 'Scrap Iron' Dailey
Pitcher
Played for Charleston, Atlanta, Compton, Columbus, Rio Grande
Career Record: 77-74
Career Saves: 390
3.14 ERA
1184.2 Innings pitched
1175 Strikeouts
Career VORP: 240.7

HOF Monitor: 127
HOF Standard 27.07
Black Ink Points: 14
Gray Ink Points: 56

All Star: 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1974, 1975, 1976
Pitcher of the Year: 1969









Gabriel 'Vandal' Prado
Pitcher
Played for St. Louis, Hartford, Compton, Valdosta, Atlanta
Career Record: 224-111
3.13 ERA
3267.2 Innings pitched
2906 Strikeouts
Career VORP: 706.2

HOF Monitor: 122
HOF Standard: 55.32
Black Ink Points: 59
Gray Ink Points: 244

All Star: 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1966, 1969
Pitcher of the Year: 1963, 1966







Orlando 'Spot' Diaz
Pitcher
Played for Providence, Charleston, Long Beach Island, Toronto, Hartford, Quad City, Brooklyn, Chicago, New Orleans
Career Record: 86-107
Career Saves: 425
3.79 ERA
1316.0 Innings pitched
1320 Strikeouts
Career VORP: 202.2

HOF Monitor: 105
HOF Standard: 23.85
Black Ink Points: 6
Gray Ink Points: 41

All Star: 1961, 1963, 1964, 1965, 1967, 1968






Benny 'Blinky' Myers
Pitcher
Played for St.Louis, Hartford, Compton, Chicago, Brooklyn
Career Record: 206-160
3.32 ERA
3491.2 Innings Pitched
2831 Strikeouts
Career VORP: 642.3

HOF Monitor: 99
HOF Standard: 40.15
Black Ink Points: 43
Gray Ink Points: 210

All Star: 1963, 1964, 1966, 1968
Rookie of the Year: 1963
Pitcher of the Year: 1964, 1968
Most Valuable Player: 1964







Tom 'Hollywood' Williams
Pitcher
Played for Baltimore, Compton, Toronto, New Orleans
Career Record: 187-155
3.49 ERA
3158.2 Innings Pitched
2652 Strikeouts
Career VORP: 570.0

HOF Monitor: 84
HOF Standard: 36.00
Black Ink Points: 34
Gray Ink Points: 176

All Star: 1961, 1962, 1963, 1965, 1967, 1970, 1971
Pitcher of the Year: 1961, 1967, 1970

[Alan T]

Bryan 'Nasty' Hughes
Pitcher
Played for Gary, Valdosta
Career Record: 126-86
3.37 ERA
1939.2 Innings Pitched
1413 Strikeouts
Career VORP: 327.9

HOF Monitor: 62.5
HOF Standard: 28.64
Black Ink Points: 27
Gray Ink Points: 148

All Star: 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1965, 1967
Pitcher of the Year: 1961






Steven 'Sundown' Davis
Pitcher
Played for Charleston, Compton, Quad City, Texas
Career Record: 183-153
3.60 ERA
3006.2 Innings Pitched
2353 Strikeouts
Career VORP: 468.8

HOF Monitor: 77
HOF Standard: 31.63
Black Ink Points: 29
Gray Ink Points: 147

All Star: 1963, 1964, 1965, 1972, 1973, 1975
Pitcher of the Year: 1963, 1964







Whit 'Jammer' O'Neal
Pitcher
Played for Hartford, Valdosta
Career Record: 160-97
3.43 ERA
2364.2 Innings Pitched
2376 Strikeouts
Career VORP: 193.5

HOF Monitor: 68
HOF Standard: 38.44
Black Ink Points: 23
Gray Ink Points: 147

All Star: 1969, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1977









Steve Dooley
Pitcher
Played for New York
Career Record: 126-90
3.72 ERA
1926.1 Innings Pitched
1167 Strikeouts
Career VORP: 320.8

HOF Monitor: 61
HOF Standard: 21.44
Black Ink Points: 24
Gray Ink Points: 129

All Star: 1961, 1962, 1963, 1966, 1967
Pitcher of the Year: 1962










Jose 'Chunky' Medina
Pitcher
Played for Rio Grande, Quad City
Career Record: 159-164
3.55 ERA
2876.2 Innings Pitched
2474 Strikeouts
Career VORP: 419.4

HOF Monitor: 43.5
HOF Standard: 28.17
Black Ink Points: 19
Gray Ink Points: 128

All Star: 1964, 1965, 1968
Rookie of the Year: 1964

[Alan T]

Patrick 'Dash' Bentley
Pitcher
Played for Gary, Valdosta, Brooklyn, Columbus
Career Record: 161-137
3.86 ERA
2734.0 Innings Pitched
1819 Strikeouts
Career VORP: 309.3

HOF Monitor: 29
HOF Standard: 23.49
Black Ink Points: 9
Gray Ink Points: 124

All Star: 1962, 1966










Joel Garner
Pitcher
Played for Valdosta
Career Record: 140-77
3.69 ERA
2039.2 Innings Pitched
1907 Strikeouts
Career VORP: 46.3

HOF Monitor: 54
HOF Standard: 29.83
Black Ink Points: 15
Gray Ink Points: 113

All Star: 1971, 1972
Pitcher of the Year: 1971








Todd 'Spanky' Sparks
Pitcher
Played for Rio Grande, San Diego
Career Record: 117-97
3.25 ERA
1996.1 Innings Pitched
1695 Strikeouts
Career VORP: 334.8

HOF Monitor: 30
HOF Standard: 24.32
Black Ink Points: 12
Gray Ink Points: 113

All Star: 1971, 1972, 1973, 1974








Vicente Reyes
Pitcher
Played for New York, Baltimore, Quad City, San Diego
Career Record: 175-145
3.95 ERA
2749.0 Innings Pitched
1990 Strikeouts
Career VORP: 302.2

HOF Monitor: 39.5
HOF Standard: 24.64
Black Ink Points: 12
Gray Ink Points: 112

All Star: 1965, 1970, 1976
Gold Glove: 1978










Rob Roberts
Pitcher
Played for St.Louis, Hartford, Baltimore
Career Record: 119-67
3.69 ERA
1760.2 Innings Pitched
1202 Strikeouts
Career VORP: 329.4

HOF Monitor: 29.5
HOF Standard: 26.45
Black Ink Points: 7
Gray Ink Points: 112

All Star: 1961, 1964, 1967

[Alan T]

Kelvin Browne
Pitcher
Played for New York
Career Record: 107-99
3.91 ERA
1799.0 Innings Pitched
1580 Strikeouts
Career VORP: 266.2

HOF Monitor: 21.5
HOF Standard: 14.89
Black Ink Points: 16
Gray Ink Points: 108

All Star: 1965





Chris Winston
Pitcher
Played for Charleston, Texas, Atlanta
Career Record: 123-109
4.00 ERA
2010.1 Innings Pitched
1508 Strikeouts
Career VORP: 272.0

HOF Monitor: 36
HOF Standard: 17.77
Black Ink Points: 10
Gray Ink Points: 102

All Star: 1963, 1964





Xinpeng 'Stumpy' Tien
Pitcher
Played for Toronto, Quad City, Atlanta, Baltimore
Career Record: 105-77
Career Saves: 173
3.41 ERA
1403.2 Innings Pitched
1256 Strikeouts
Career VORP: 223.7

HOF Monitor: 52
HOF Standard: 25.58
Black Ink Points: 25
Gray Ink Points: 101

All Star: 1971, 1972, 1973, 1974, 1977, 1978, 1979







James Lawrence
Pitcher
Played for St. Louis, Compton, Seattle, Columbus
Career Record: 121-84
3.47 ERA
1966.1 Innings Pitched
1114 Strikeouts
Career VORP: 361.6

HOF Monitor: 30
HOF Standard: 18.96
Black Ink Points: 10
Gray Ink Points: 74

All Star: 1963, 1965, 1966








Alberto 'Cyclone' Vargo
Pitcher
Played for Ann Arbor
Career Record: 130-91
3.47 ERA
1978.1 Innings Pitched
1529 Strikeouts
Career VORP: 345.1

HOF Monitor: 37
HOF Standard: 24.10
Black Ink Points: 21
Gray Ink Points: 91

All Star: 1966, 1968
Gold Glove: 1969

[Cringer]

Can non-committee guys comment just for the heck of it?

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Cringer

Can non-committee guys comment just for the heck of it?

Up to Dark Cloud, he's going to be running the show for this but I don't see why other's comments wouldn't be welcomed, considering anyone who wanted to be part of the committee could have been.

[Alan T]

Rick Inman
Third Base
Played for Charleston, Compton, Valdosta, Chicago
Batting Average: .307
Career OPS: .851
Career Hits: 2836
Career Home Runs: 238
Career RBIs: 1324
Career VORP: 859.2

HOF Monitor: 205
HOF Standard: 63.05
Black Ink Points: 40
Gray Ink Points: 225

All Star: 1966, 1967, 1968, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1974, 1975, 1977
Most Valuable Player: 1967, 1971, 1974
Gold Glove: 1965, 1974






Heath Palmer
First Base
Played for Gary, Valdosta, Seattle, Columbus
Batting Average: .313
Career OPS: .828
Career Hits: 1773
Career Home Runs: 160
Career RBIs: 773
Career VORP: 408.8

HOF Monitor: 121.5
HOF Standard: 29.13
Black Ink Points: 41
Gray Ink Points: 86

All Star: 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1968
Most Valuable Player: 1966





Fernando 'Birdbrain' Spindola
Outfield
Played for New York, Hartford
Batting Average: .273
Career OPS: .817
Career Hits: 2319
Career Home Runs: 406
Career RBIs: 1365
Career Stolen Bases: 350
Career VORP: 340.6

HOF Monitor: 115
HOF Standard: 44.21
Black Ink Points: 29
Gray Ink Points: 148

All Star: 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1966, 1967
Most Valuable Player: 1961
Gold Glove: 1973




Andres Aguilera
Outfield
Played for El Paso, Rio Grande
Batting Average: .280
Career OPS: .829
Career Hits: 2377
Career Home Runs: 324
Career RBIs: 1354
Career VORP: 473.6

HOF Monitor: 72
HOF Standard: 47.40
Black Ink Points: 14
Gray Ink Points: 130

All Star: 1961, 1962, 1963, 1967, 1968, 1970
Most Valuable Player: 1961






Felipe Polanco
Catcher
Played for Keokuk, St. George, El Paso, Brooklyn, New York, Toronto
Batting Average: .250
Career OPS: .755
Career Hits: 2096
Career Home Runs: 290
Career RBIs: 1146
Career VORP: 294.6

HOF Monitor: 79
HOF Standard: 46.79
Black Ink Points: 4
Gray Ink Points: 45

All Star: 1965, 1966, 1968, 1970, 1976

[Alan T]

Dave Myers
Outfield
Played for Charleston, Chicago, Ann Arbor, Texas
Batting Average: .253
Career OPS: .798
Career Hits: 1954
Career Home Runs: 344
Career RBIs: 1266
Career Stolen Bases: 255
Career VORP: 310.2

HOF Monitor: 85.5
HOF Standard: 44.45
Black Ink Points: 25
Gray Ink Points: 105

All Star: 1962, 1963, 1965, 1966
Most Valuable Player: 1963
Rookie of the Year: 1961
Gold Glove: 1964, 1966, 1968






Jose Martinez
Catcher
Played for Brooklyn, Quad City
Batting Average: .286
Career OPS: .822
Career Hits: 1657
Career Home Runs: 148
Career RBIs: 778
Career VORP: 396.9

HOF Monitor: 62
HOF Standard: 43.39
Black Ink Points: 3
Gray Ink Points: 52

All Star: 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1965
Gold Glove: 1971











Tyler Reilly
First Base
Played for Baltimore, Rio Grande, Quad City
Batting Average: .296
Career OPS: .906
Career Hits: 1909
Career Home Runs: 298
Career RBIs: 1133
Career VORP: 610.8

HOF Monitor: 82
HOF Standard: 41.92
Black Ink Points: 15
Gray Ink Points: 145

All Star: 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1965, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971









Roy Richardson
Outfield
Played for Hartford, Seattle, Columbus, Colorado
Batting Average: .297
Career OPS: .797
Career Hits: 2297
Career Home Runs: 92
Career RBIs: 879
Career Stolen Bases: 344
Career VORP: 344.6

HOF Monitor: 69
HOF Standard: 41.27
Black Ink Points: 11
Gray Ink Points: 94

All Star: 1961, 1964, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1971
Gold Glove: 1962






Jerry Matthews
Third Base
Played for Appleton, Texas, Quad City, El Paso
Batting Average: .273
Career OPS: .829
Career Hits: 1926
Career Home Runs: 300
Career RBIs: 1082
Career VORP: 359.1

HOF Monitor: 53.5
HOF Standard: 40.75
Black Ink Points: 13
Gray Ink Points: 92

All Star: 1962, 1963, 1966, 1969
Most Valuable Player: 1963
Gold Glove: 1962

[Alan T]

Jose Lopez
Catcher
Played for New York, Ann Arbor
Batting Average: .281
Career OPS: .842
Career Hits: 1413
Career Home Runs: 150
Career RBIs: 742
Career VORP: 344.8

HOF Monitor: 19
HOF Standard: 40.03
Black Ink Points: 6
Gray Ink Points: 30

All Star: 1966






Ralph Nicholson
Catcher
Played for St. Louis, Seattle, Quad City, Brooklyn, Atlanta
Batting Average: .286
Career OPS: .781
Career Hits: 1956
Career Home Runs: 13
Career RBIs: 844
Career VORP: 309.5

HOF Monitor: 92
HOF Standard: 38.50
Black Ink Points: 3
Gray Ink Points: 70

All Star: 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1966, 1969
Gold Glove: 1963, 1972, 1975








Tony Hernandez
Outfield
Played for New York, Baltimore, Toronto
Batting Average: .297
Career OPS: .860
Career Hits: 1846
Career Home Runs: 203
Career RBIs: 865
Career Stolen Bases: 135
Career VORP: 468.5

HOF Monitor: 86.5
HOF Standard: 48.06
Black Ink Points: 33
Gray Ink Points: 110

All Star: 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1965, 1967, 1969
Most Valuable Player: 1962
Gold Glove: 1968






Mel Brooks
First Base
Played for Compton
Batting Average: .279
Career OPS: .879
Career Hits: 1682
Career Home Runs: 345
Career RBIs: 974
Career VORP: 439.1

HOF Monitor: 54.5
HOF Standard: 28.19
Black Ink Points: 19
Gray Ink Points: 117

All Star: 1969, 1971, 1973, 1975
Gold Glove: 1975, 1976











Curt 'Lobo' McConnell
Outfield
Played for Brooklyn, Hartford, Atlanta
Batting Average: .264
Career OPS: .787
Career Hits: 1695
Career Home Runs: 301
Career RBIs: 1104
Career VORP: 179.5

HOF Monitor: 43.5
HOF Standard: 21.59
Black Ink Points: 1
Gray Ink Points: 113

All Star: 1963, 1965, 1966
Rookie of the Year: 1962

[Alan T]

Clay 'Animal' Darby
Second Base
Played for Colorado, Seattle, Chicago, Quad City
Batting Average: .271
Career OPS: .806
Career Hits: 1712
Career Home Runs: 228
Career RBIs: 977
Career VORP: 276.8

HOF Monitor: 56
HOF Standard: 35.13
Black Ink Points: 13
Gray Ink Points: 101

All Star: 1962, 1963, 1964, 1965, 1967
Gold Glove: 1961, 1967, 1968, 1969







Tom Campbell
First Base
Played for Texas, Ann Arbor, Columbus
Batting Average: .269
Career OPS: .854
Career Hits: 1456
Career Home Runs: 249
Career RBIs: 855
Career VORP: 321.7

HOF Monitor: 38.5
HOF Standard: 21.77
Black Ink Points: 3
Gray Ink Points: 100

All Star: 1964, 1965, 1970, 1971
Most Valuable Player: 1970
Gold Glove: 1964, 1965




Adam 'Mister X' Stanley
Third Base
Played for Ann Arbor, San Diego
Batting Average: .263
Career OPS: .802
Career Hits: 1864
Career Home Runs: 323
Career RBIs: 1148
Career Stolen Bases: 155
Career VORP: 325.3

HOF Monitor: 58.5
HOF Standard: 38.71
Black Ink Points: 10
Gray Ink Points: 90

All Star: 1966, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1972, 1973, 1974, 1975
Gold Glove: 1972







Raleigh Wildridge
Outfield
Played for Appleton, Texas, Compton, Ann Arbor, Chicago
Batting Average: .256
Career OPS: .790
Career Hits: 1967
Career Home Runs: 305
Career RBIs: 1142
Career Stolen Bases: 149
Career VORP: 235.1

HOF Monitor: 23
HOF Standard: 35.12
Black Ink Points: 3
Gray Ink Points: 74

All Star: 1964, 1965, 1971
Gold Glove: 1969




Jeremy O'Herlihy
Outfield
Played for Hartford, Columbus
Batting Average: .272
Career OPS: .773
Career Hits: 1557
Career Home Runs: 162
Career RBIs: 769
Career Stolen Bases: 642
Career VORP: 258.9

HOF Monitor: 50
HOF Standard: 21.78
Black Ink Points: 18
Gray Ink Points: 75

All Star: 1964, 1965, 1966
Gold Glove: 1961, 1963

[Alan T]

Ben 'Clapper' Harris
First Base
Played for Baltimore, Compton, Atlanta, New York
Batting Average: .274
Career OPS: .866
Career Hits: 1435
Career Home Runs: 206
Career RBIs: 758
Career VORP: 410.8

HOF Monitor: 45.5
HOF Standard: 35.93
Black Ink Points: 11
Gray Ink Points: 65

All Star: 1964, 1965, 1966, 1967, 1969, 1971
Rookie of the Year: 1964
Gold Glove: 1968



Ramon Lopez
Third Base
Played for Keokuk, St. George, Brooklyn, Baltimore, New York, Toronto, Texas
Batting Average: .293
Career OPS: .794
Career Hits: 1865
Career Home Runs: 175
Career RBIs: 776
Career VORP: 376.2

HOF Monitor: 34.5
HOF Standard: 19.79
Black Ink Points: 5
Gray Ink Points: 58

All Star: 1961, 1962, 1963, 1965, 1968
Gold Glove: 1966, 1967







Alfredo Alvarado
Catcher
Played for Colorado, Brooklyn
Batting Average: .288
Career OPS: .814
Career Hits: 1462
Career Home Runs: 150
Career RBIs: 708
Career VORP: 360.4

HOF Monitor: 25
HOF Standard: 36.77
Black Ink Points: 0
Gray Ink Points: 24

All Star: 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1975









Warren Lewis
Third Base
Played for Appleton, Texas, Hartford, Rio Grande, Brooklyn
Batting Average: ..296
Career OPS: .815
Career Hits: 1671
Career Home Runs: 66
Career RBIs: 678
Career VORP: 356.4

HOF Monitor: 28.5
HOF Standard: 35.67
Black Ink Points: 8
Gray Ink Points: 57

All Star: 1966, 1970






Stanford Jones
Catcher
Played for Chicago, Hartford, Boston, Rio Grande, Brooklyn
Batting Average: .275
Career OPS: .804
Career Hits: 1699
Career Home Runs: 171
Career RBIs: 832
Career VORP: 352.3

HOF Monitor: 62
HOF Standard: 38.20
Black Ink Points: 2
Gray Ink Points: 20

All Star: 1965, 1966, 1967, 1971, 1974
Gold Glove: 1968, 1970, 1973, 1974

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Cringer

Can non-committee guys comment just for the heck of it?

Oh you know it. It's basically an open discussion, just non-committee folks can't vote.

[Tasan]

I think we need to, as a group, establish some guideline numbers in the tests as to where a HOFer would generally fall. Not hard and fast numbers, but indicators to get players to pop out at you. Like a black ink for a pitcher of around 35 should get strong consideration, or 25 or so for hitters (they appear to run lower).

[Alan T]

Gustavo 'Gusto' Sanchez
Outfield
Played for Long Beach Island, Toronto, Hartford, Baltimore, Texas, New Orleans, Rio Grande
Batting Average: .320
Career OPS: .822
Career Hits: 1725
Career Home Runs: 107
Career RBIs: 568
Career Stolen Bases: 263
Career VORP: 327.8

HOF Monitor: 64.5
HOF Standard: 25.78
Black Ink Points: 10
Gray Ink Points: 70

All Star: 1968, 1969, 1971







Ben Gibbs
First Base
Played for Colorado, Chicago, Seattle, Hartford, Valdosta, Toronto
Batting Average: .274
Career OPS: .817
Career Hits: 1562
Career Home Runs: 222
Career RBIs: 818
Career VORP: 324.7

HOF Monitor: 11
HOF Standard: 21.10
Black Ink Points: 10
Gray Ink Points: 53

All Star: 1963, 1971








Ed Manning
ShortStop
Played for Charleston, Atlanta
Batting Average: .281
Career OPS: .813
Career Hits: 1454
Career Home Runs: 190
Career RBIs: 716
Career VORP: 318.8

HOF Monitor:
HOF Standard:
Black Ink Points:
Gray Ink Points:

All Star: 1965, 1966, 1967, 1969, 1970



Chris Foster
Third Base
Played for Worcester, Ann Arbor, El Paso
Batting Average: .295
Career OPS: .810
Career Hits: 1688
Career Home Runs: 135
Career RBIs: 662
Career VORP: 314.9

HOF Monitor: 31
HOF Standard: 34.96
Black Ink Points: 4
Gray Ink Points: 57

All Star: 1967, 1968, 1971








Larry Richmond
Outfield
Played for Long Beach Island, Toronto, Quad City, Texas, Atlanta, New York
Batting Average: .270
Career OPS: .839
Career Hits: 1538
Career Home Runs: 253
Career RBIs: 943
Career Stolen Bases: 102
Career VORP: 312.0

HOF Monitor: 26
HOF Standard: 22.34
Black Ink Points: 0
Gray Ink Points: 85

All Star: 1968, 1969, 1972
Gold Glove: 1966, 1970

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Tasan

I think we need to, as a group, establish some guideline numbers in the tests as to where a HOFer would generally fall. Not hard and fast numbers, but indicators to get players to pop out at you. Like a black ink for a pitcher of around 35 should get strong consideration, or 25 or so for hitters (they appear to run lower).

Just a warning using Black ink or Gray ink for any sort of measuring stick is pretty hit or miss. Those seem to be more of a "neat thing" than anything else. If you want to use a measuring stick, that is supposed to be what "HOF Standard test" is meant for, but some people don't like such hard and fast rules and prefer to pick Hall of Famers that "feel" right to them (such as x number of hits, or x number of home runs or x number of wins or such).

You'll find hall of famers with Gray or Black ink scores that are all over the map.

[Alan T]

Bob Arnold
First Base
Played for Chicago, Quad City, Toronto, Valdosta
Batting Average: .299
Career OPS: .859
Career Hits: 1163
Career Home Runs: 165
Career RBIs: 607
Career VORP: 311.1

HOF Monitor: 28.5
HOF Standard: 21.10
Black Ink Points: 5
Gray Ink Points: 38

All Star: 1974, 1975, 1976, 1977


Jose Zamora
Second Base
Played for Hartford, Baltimore, Columbus, Brooklyn
Batting Average: .303
Career OPS: .827
Career Hits: 1390
Career Home Runs: 54
Career RBIs: 459
Career VORP: 304.3

HOF Monitor: 45
HOF Standard: 35.28
Black Ink Points: 2
Gray Ink Points: 56

All Star: 1965, 1967, 1968




Ok, finally that is all of the Pitchers and Hitters that met any sort of "score" criteria that I used to try to weed out the 240 players that qualified for the Hall of Fame. All I can say is thank goodness future years won't have nearly so many to look at.

[Young Drachma]

First thing to discuss, I say is, how much do we care about how many titles a player won? Post-season stats? I guess we have a ton of data, but given a lot of these guys are dudes who are pioneers of the league who might not otherwise make the "smell" test in future years, I say we need to consider all of the factors.

Thoughts?

[Young Drachma]

Dola --

The final ballot will have 10 guys on it. We need to come up with a percentage that will determine which guys get carried over to get voted on next year, too. I'm open to ideas on that.

Also, another idea is I'd like you make a list of your "definite" Hall of Fame guys, that way, we can go ahead and get a few of the "universal" guys onto the ballot and just rankle over the few stragglers that we deem as such.

[Young Drachma]

Here's my "definite in" list:

SP Gabriel Prado
SP Tom Williams
3B Rick Inman

[Alan T]

My "definite in" list:

Gabriel Prado
Aaron Dailey
Rick Inman

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

First thing to discuss, I say is, how much do we care about how many titles a player won? Post-season stats? I guess we have a ton of data, but given a lot of these guys are dudes who are pioneers of the league who might not otherwise make the "smell" test in future years, I say we need to consider all of the factors.

Thoughts?

I don't personally view postseason stats or titles or such as anything special other than perhaps good things to help me decide on someone who might otherwise be just on the edge of getting in, but needing a little more.

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

Dola --
The final ballot will have 10 guys on it. We need to come up with a percentage that will determine which guys get carried over to get voted on next year, too. I'm open to ideas on that.

What is the % need of votes to make it into the hall? I think the % that will allow a player to carry over to the next ballot should be a slight bit lower than that so it can be a reasonable possibility that enough people might change their mind to allow them to get in the next year.

[Young Drachma]

The status quo right now is a simple majority of the voting committee to get them in. So maybe we say someone who gets at least 40% can get on the ballot for next year?

[Young Drachma]

Why Dailey, Alan? I was almost wooed by his All-Star appearances, but...I'd like to hear your thoughts on it.

[muns]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

First thing to discuss, I say is, how much do we care about how many titles a player won? Post-season stats? I guess we have a ton of data, but given a lot of these guys are dudes who are pioneers of the league who might not otherwise make the "smell" test in future years, I say we need to consider all of the factors.

Thoughts?

Totally agree with what you say DC, and I do think titles do matter, at least to me they do.

[muns]

Dola

I have a few more guys on my "in" list.

SP Gabriel Prado- Given
SP Tom Williams-Given
3B Rick Inman-Given

CL-Aaron Dailey- Set the standard for closers and was one of the most dominate guys of his pitching time. He won a pitcher of the year award as a closer....

1B-Tyler Reilly- .296 hitter with 298 homers and again dominating his position. 10 out of 11 straight years as an all star.

OF-Fernando 'Birdbrain' Spindola- Career homers leader for a long time. 406 homers and 1300+ RBI'S makes it for me. Hitting .273 means he just wasnt a long ball .250 hitter either.

SP-Whit 'Jammer' O'Neal- this guy was the dominate hurler for one of the most dominate teams of all time. How many titles does he have? Easy for me to vote his butt in....

[muns]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Bob Arnold
First Base
Played for Chicago, Quad City, Toronto, Valdosta
Batting Average: .299
Career OPS: .859
Career Hits: 1163
Career Home Runs: 165
Career RBIs: 607
Career VORP: 311.1

HOF Monitor: 28.5
HOF Standard: 21.10
Black Ink Points: 5
Gray Ink Points: 38

All Star: 1974, 1975, 1976, 1977


Jose Zamora
Second Base
Played for Hartford, Baltimore, Columbus, Brooklyn
Batting Average: .303
Career OPS: .827
Career Hits: 1390
Career Home Runs: 54
Career RBIs: 459
Career VORP: 304.3

HOF Monitor: 45
HOF Standard: 35.28
Black Ink Points: 2
Gray Ink Points: 56

All Star: 1965, 1967, 1968




Ok, finally that is all of the Pitchers and Hitters that met any sort of "score" criteria that I used to try to weed out the 240 players that qualified for the Hall of Fame. All I can say is thank goodness future years won't have nearly so many to look at.

Alan, thank you again for putting all the time you have put into this to make this a fun fun league. I cant even imagine how long that took to make that list.

[muns]

I have about 4 other players on "the fringe" that i wouldnt mind talking about but its late, and im beat, i hope to get to it tomorrow.

[Tasan]

I'll weigh in on this at some point during football tomorrow.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

Why Dailey, Alan? I was almost wooed by his All-Star appearances, but...I'd like to hear your thoughts on it.

HOF Standard tests and Gray/black ink tests do not work well with relief pitchers, but his HOF Monitor score is higher than any other pitcher including Prado. He pitched in 9 consecutive all star games which means at his position, he was among the best for the duration of the prime of his career.

As a closer, he won the pitcher of the year award in a year that he was instrumental in helping his team make the playoffs. His Career VORP does not seem super high, but that is another stat that is tough for relief pitchers to measure up in. Compared to other retired relief pitchers however, Daily's VORP is higher than anyone's (including some of the other starters even on the list of pitchers I gave stats for).

He struck out on average 1 batter per inning, hitterrs hit only .238 against him with an OPS under .700 for the duration of his career. This included the end when he had aged considerably and wasn't even the same pitcher as during his prime.

Simply put, if Dailey doesn't deserve to get into the Hall of Fame, I have a hard time picturing any relief pitcher deserves to get in. Perhaps only 1 or maybe 2 relief pitchers even playing currently would compare to Dailey in my mind. I am not a huge fan of loading up the Hall of Fame with closers or anything, but if he was the best, he should go in.

[Alan T]

My turn to ask about someone

Since multiple people have listed Tom Williams as a "sure in" for them, can I ask why? The only thing I see going for him is winning 3 pitcher of the year awards which is definitely something that had me considering him. Beyond that though, how is he a better choice than Benny Myers or even that much better than Whit O'Neal? Williams had 19 less wins than Myers and only 5 less losses with a career ERA of .17 higher. William had only 17 more wins than O'Neal with 58 more losses and an ERA of .06 higher.

What else am I missing that makes him a given?

[Young Drachma]

Dailey pitched for me in '69 when we won the RL with Compton. I can vouch for his dominance and I see him as an in, for sure. I just wasn't sure what measure we wanted to judge relief pitchers on, but what you're saying makes sense to me.

As for Tom Williams, Benny Myers can go too. After all, he was on those early St. Louis clubs that were dominant, pitched for Hartford and was a key player for me in Chicago towards the end of his career too. Tom Williams deal is simple. He was the best pitcher in the league during his time with Baltimore and then he came back a decade later and was dominant enough to help Compton get back to the Classic. I think the fact that the third of his POY awards were spread out like they were, proved to me that he was clearly a class pitcher for a decade or so and to me, that qualifies him as HoF worthy.

[Young Drachma]

Whit O'Neal's problem to me is that he didn't stay around long enough. 160 wins is nice and only 97 losses is pretty crazy. But...he lacked longevity and to me, that's got to be something to consider.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

Whit O'Neal's problem to me is that he didn't stay around long enough. 160 wins is nice and only 97 losses is pretty crazy. But...he lacked longevity and to me, that's got to be something to consider.

Yeah, my point wasn't as much a case of trying to say Whit O'Neal should be in as much as why is Tom Williams a sure in from the only other lists so far that I didn't put out there. Statistically those two are fairly similar in my mind and if I was to pick a third pitcher to make the hall after Prado and Dailey it would have been Myers. So I was more suprised what made Williams more special than Myers or O'Neal.

I think in my mind for Starting pitchers Prado #1, Myers #2 seems almost impossible to argue. Looking at Williams and O'Neal for #3 is where things start blurring. O'Neal obviously has a far superior record, but that is partially due to the team he was on so can't be the end of story there. O'Neal also had by far better pitching stats but he likely benefited some due to the ballpark he played most of his career in. Williams also didn't really have a very steady career, he had some fairly bad seasons in the middle of there at times which means to me that he wasn't that dominant either (out of his three pitcher of the year awards, only one of the three really seem like a dominant year as well).

I think overall, I would probably put Williams as #3 and O'Neal as #4.. I'm just not sure that I would vote all 3 or 4 in. I'm sure I'll be voting Prado, and think highly enough of Myers that he likely will get my vote, but not definite yet. (Myers also didn't have the most stable career and had all kinds of up and downs himself).

Normal disclaimer: Not trying to say anyone else is wrong, just giving the reasoning for my thinking here. Of course I might just be a bit stricter on my own personal criteria for the hall than some others too.. I find it interesting hearing other people's viewpoints though on the players.. this is what is fun for me in this league.. so I welcome people disagreeing with my thoughts here, or agreeing even with the reasons why

[Chief Rum]

Great work, Alan.

I hate to ask for anything to be added to the profiles, but I could have used how long they played or the years they played in the bigs. It helps me put the career numbers in perspective.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Great work, Alan.

I hate to ask for anything to be added to the profiles, but I could have used how long they played or the years they played in the bigs. It helps me put the career numbers in perspective.

Should be easy for me to add info like that and postseason experience, etc when we're down to a smaller pool of players. This year as everyone can imagine was a bit intimidating

[Young Drachma]

You can search for any of these players you're curious about in-game, too. They're still viewable within the game module, you can view their player cards, etc.

[kaosfere]

Man, there's a lot to go over here, and I've had a busy weekend. I have something to do at work tomorrow, at least! I'll catch up and contribute ASAP!

[Commo_Soldier]

After looking over the numbers and coming up with my own HOF standard I have narrowed down my list to the following in no particular order.

Definate Yes:
Rick Inman
Gabriel Prado

Most Likely Yes:
Benny Meyers
Fernando Spindola
Tony Hernandez
Tom Williams

Possible Yes:
Dave Meyers
Andres Aguilera
Heath Palmer
Tyler Reilly
Roy Richardson
Felipe Polanco
Jerry Mathews
Steven Davis
Whit O'Neal
Aaron Dailey
Bryan Hughes
Xinpeng Tien

[Tasan]

Sorry I didn't weigh in when I said I would. Its been crazy around here. I'll try to tomorrow while watching election stuff.

[Cringer]

It may be a good thing I am not in this thing because I may be too biased. I kind of thought of Aguilera as a lock for the HoF. I know his numbers are not the greatest, but the whole package seems to fit for me. More so then Reilly even.

Although Chunky Medina, as much as I love the guy, I totally understand him not having a real chance at the HoF. I was kind of surprised to even see him listed up above by Alan.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Cringer

It may be a good thing I am not in this thing because I may be too biased. I kind of thought of Aguilera as a lock for the HoF. I know his numbers are not the greatest, but the whole package seems to fit for me. More so then Reilly even.

Although Chunky Medina, as much as I love the guy, I totally understand him not having a real chance at the HoF. I was kind of surprised to even see him listed up above by Alan.

I tried to list anyone who would remotely even have any talking points for the hall. I figured it was better to err on the side of too many than too few in order to save people work in having to hunt down people. I probably won't vote for the majority of these people myself.. but others might!

[Commo_Soldier]

Originally Posted by Cringer

It may be a good thing I am not in this thing because I may be too biased. I kind of thought of Aguilera as a lock for the HoF. I know his numbers are not the greatest, but the whole package seems to fit for me. More so then Reilly even.

Although Chunky Medina, as much as I love the guy, I totally understand him not having a real chance at the HoF. I was kind of surprised to even see him listed up above by Alan.

I personally think Aguilera will probably make it in eventually, just not sure if it will be in the first class.

[Commo_Soldier]

So where are we going from here?

[Tasan]

Ugh, I've never gotten back to this. I'm not sure I'm cut out for HOF committee duties.