Soccer Thread 2017-2018

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Gulati needs to go. The whole program needs to be torn down from the top to the bottom. You got 5 years to get things back on track.

Gulati has too much power in FIFA, he's not going anywhere.

Agree on a complete overhaul with Pulisic as the centerpiece of the team going forward and the prototype of the kind of player we're trying to develop.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

I swear Taylor Twerp was on ESPN a week ago saying the US not qualifying wasn't a bad thing. I don't think he had this imagined as the way that we wouldn't make it.

It's for the best if it forces them to make major changes from top to bottom. Honestly this team was Pulisic and a pile of shit. They weren't going anywhere in the WC and fighting to be the 3rd or 4th best team in CONCACAF isn't a good goal.

[murrayyyyy]

Can't wait til SC shows the first Panama "goal". It never went in when watching the replay.

[bronconick]

LOL FOX SPORTS

[sovereignstar v2]

Originally Posted by bronconick

LOL FOX SPORTS

They could maybe get away with putting Gus Johnson back in the mix.

[RainMaker]

Remember when US soccer gave up a home game in qualifying for a few extra bucks? Wonder if that point would have helped.

[Butter]

They barely looked interested, tbh. Every player on the pitch deserves all the criticism they will get, except the one that scored.

Not to mention US Soccer.

If anybody over 25 plays in any international games in the next couple of years, then we haven't learned a God damn thing.

Panama's first goal wasn't a goal though.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I'm still trying to figure out how Arena got hired in the first place.

My God, you might actually be better off just rolling a ball out there & saying "figure it out boys".

[PilotMan]

The loss to Mexico in Columbus was bad. The loss to CR on the road was awful. The 0-2 home loss against CR was worse than the road loss. Now throw in that 1-1 tie against Honduras, after we trounced them 6-0 and it's all a set up for tonight. Tonight was, without question, the biggest egg laid by this team of the entire qualification. But each of those other games set the stage for tonight. A World Class system doesn't end up playing like this. It has to be reset.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I'm still trying to figure out how Arena got hired in the first place.

My God, you might actually be better off just rolling a ball out there & saying "figure it out boys".

Seemed like a desperate attempt to salvage qualification. They let Jurgen run the program into the ground and figured maybe a familiar face could get it on track enough to beat what should be vastly inferior teams.

[sovereignstar v2]

[bob]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Remember when US soccer gave up a home game in qualifying for a few extra bucks? Wonder if that point would have helped.

Remind me?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Seemed like a desperate attempt to salvage qualification. They let Jurgen run the program into the ground and figured maybe a familiar face could get it on track enough to beat what should be vastly inferior teams.

There were, IIRC, some reasons that familiar face was booted last time.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by bob

Remind me?

They played the Costa Rica qualifier in New Jersey where it was practically a home game for Costa Rica.

[CrescentMoonie]

I'm going to suggest a dump truck full of cash for Oscar Pareja to take this thing over. His strength in Dallas has been developing young players and using an attacking style.

After that, any of Marsch, Kreis, Vanney, Vermes, or even Schmetzer would be fine.

The wild card option would be Tata Martino.

[digamma]

Originally Posted by Butter

Panama's first goal wasn't a goal though.

Just saw this highlight. Not even close.

[RainMaker]

The crazy thing is they should have lost by more tonight. T&T had a bunch of really good looks and US got away with at least 1 penalty (probably 2).

[sovereignstar v2]

.@TaylorTwellman apoplectic on ESPN News right now. Great stuff. pic.twitter.com/yEXI1tDpTB

— Phil Mackey (@PhilMackey) October 11, 2017

[bob]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

They played the Costa Rica qualifier in New Jersey where it was practically a home game for Costa Rica.

Gotcha... wasn't quite sure what that referred to, so thanks.

[PilotMan]

Feel bad for Pulisic. He deserved a coming out party on that stage. Older players should just retire from the national team and get it over with.

[CrescentMoonie]

For as many soccer mom's as this country has we sure are terrible at it.

— Andrew Fouché (@andrewfooshay) October 11, 2017

[Warhammer]

As much as everyone wanted to blast Klinsmann about losing to Mexico and Costa Rica, those were not bad losses.

I agree the whole system needs to be torn down. We have players that are not mentally tough. We do not develop talent at all levels. Where are the young defenders, where are the young forwards?

Again, I go back to my post regarding my son in high school. I am by no means saying that he should be anywhere close to something along this level, however, his story does indicate a sickness in the program. We are selecting the best youth that can afford the travel club schedules and fees rather than the best players. For football, scouts scour the countryside, we locate talent in small town Nebraska, Texas, Montana, etc., and get the player to where he needs to go. For soccer, we don’t do that. We need to.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

For football, scouts scour the countryside, we locate talent in small town Nebraska, Texas, Montana, etc., and get the player to where he needs to go. For soccer, we don’t do that. We need to.

Okay, I'll bite:

On whose dime?

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

As much as everyone wanted to blast Klinsmann about losing to Mexico and Costa Rica, those were not bad losses.

The CR one was definitely a bad loss. In fact that's what this T&T loss reminded me of - no heart or passion, just going through the motions and getting worked.

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

The CR one was definitely a bad loss. In fact that's what this T&T loss reminded me of - no heart or passion, just going through the motions and getting worked.

Costa Rica is a good team. Not great, but good and improving. T&T isn't even close to that level. The style might be the same, but this is far, far worse because the competition is significantly worse.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

As much as everyone wanted to blast Klinsmann about losing to Mexico and Costa Rica, those were not bad losses.

They usually beat Mexico at home and are remotely competitive against other CONCACAF teams on the road. Klinsmann got blasted because the team wasn't competitive in either match.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

Costa Rica is a good team. Not great, but good and improving. T&T isn't even close to that level. The style might be the same, but this is far, far worse because the competition is significantly worse.

Yes, this was a worse loss, but to claim the 4-0 shellacking to CR wasn't a 'bad loss' is just lunacy.

[sovereignstar v2]

[Bisbo]

Blaming the coaches is fine, but what about most of the players? If they can't motivate themselves to go all out in a crucial game, they have no one to blame but themselves.

[MrBug708]

@JeffreyCarlisle
Gulati: “You don’t make wholesale changes on a ball being two inches wide or two inches in...We’ll look at everything.” #usmnt

U17 World Cup (missed); U20 World Cup (missed); Olympics (missed twice) 2018 World Cup

[ISiddiqui]

We're currently playing in the U17 World Cup and have a 2-0 record.

[bhlloy]

This might be a bit of a hot taek, but I really do feel like the way MLS and soccer in general is run in this country is a massive obstacle to the national team ever becoming really successful.

In nearly every other country in the world, other than the absolute top teams (and outside of the big leagues, even the top teams) everyone is trying to develop young talent from a really early age and then sell it on for a large profit. For many teams in lower leagues selling a player every three or four years is pretty much the only thing that keeps them running, and even teams at the top level are trying to develop great young talent and loan them out to teams in competitive leagues to get a step on the competition.

Compare that to the US where typically kids are looking to get into college for an education and playing on teams that are just looking to maximize that possibility, and then the college teams have no interest in developing them beyond the next couple of years (and the standard is pretty terrible) and then get to MLS where the focus seems to be marketability, profit and signing old recognizable stars, we just seem to be starting at a disadvantage compared to the rest of the world.

For every kid like Pulisic or Wood who made the move abroad and reached their potential there has got to be 50 more who just got churned by this system and never even played at a high level. Hell, I know two people who were national team players at younger ages who quit as freshmen in college because they were so disillusioned with the whole system.

And that's not to say that doesn't happen in other countries, but the US just seems to start at a massive disadvantage, and I don't think MLS does nearly enough to encourage good young US players to come through and develop

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

We're currently playing in the U17 World Cup and have a 2-0 record.

2013 FIFA U-17 World Cup - Wikipedia

[Marc Vaughan]

If the US team take this correctly it might end up being a building block to move on for the US team - the German national team was rebuilt from bottom up after England beat them 5-0 and they've been great since ..

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

This might be a bit of a hot taek, but I really do feel like the way MLS and soccer in general is run in this country is a massive obstacle to the national team ever becoming really successful.

In nearly every other country in the world, other than the absolute top teams (and outside of the big leagues, even the top teams) everyone is trying to develop young talent from a really early age and then sell it on for a large profit. For many teams in lower leagues selling a player every three or four years is pretty much the only thing that keeps them running, and even teams at the top level are trying to develop great young talent and loan them out to teams in competitive leagues to get a step on the competition.

Compare that to the US where typically kids are looking to get into college for an education and playing on teams that are just looking to maximize that possibility, and then the college teams have no interest in developing them beyond the next couple of years (and the standard is pretty terrible) and then get to MLS where the focus seems to be marketability, profit and signing old recognizable stars, we just seem to be starting at a disadvantage compared to the rest of the world.

For every kid like Pulisic or Wood who made the move abroad and reached their potential there has got to be 50 more who just got churned by this system and never even played at a high level. Hell, I know two people who were national team players at younger ages who quit as freshmen in college because they were so disillusioned with the whole system.

And that's not to say that doesn't happen in other countries, but the US just seems to start at a massive disadvantage, and I don't think MLS does nearly enough to encourage good young US players to come through and develop

MLS is a joke and when the ponzi scheme collapses it'll be the best thing to happen to US soccer.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

We're currently playing in the U17 World Cup and have a 2-0 record.

Yeah the U17 is one of the few bright spots even if that age doesn't mean a ton in the long run.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

MLS is a joke and when the ponzi scheme collapses it'll be the best thing to happen to US soccer.

That's a strange way to talk about US soccer being in the wilderness for 40 years again.

(hint: A lot of the really good CONCACAF players outside of the Mexican National Team are MLS players, including Honduras' goal scorer Elis and Costa Rica's Urena who scored 2 against the US)

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

That's a strange way to talk about US soccer being in the wilderness for 40 years again.

(hint: A lot of the really good CONCACAF players outside of the Mexican National Team are MLS players, including Honduras' goal scorer Elis and Costa Rica's Urena who scored 2 against the US)

It's helped these other CONCACAF nations by giving them a better league to play in. It's hurt US players by giving them a lesser league to fall back on.

Having most of your players competing in the 12th best league in the world isn't going to help them become better.

[MrBug708]

Time for the FIFA NIT! Ghana, US, Holland, and Chile.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It's helped these other CONCACAF nations by giving them a better league to play in. It's hurt US players by giving them a lesser league to fall back on.

Having most of your players competing in the 12th best league in the world isn't going to help them become better.

So have it fall apart so those that can't make it in Europe basically have to struggle in a perpetually failing NASL type league which constantly fails to teams folding and therefore no teams building academies to identify young players (most of the U17 team that is doing well in India right now are academy players)... yeah, that'll work out well.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

So have it fall apart so those that can't make it in Europe basically have to struggle in a perpetually failing NASL type league which constantly fails to teams folding and therefore no teams building academies to identify young players (most of the U17 team that is doing well in India right now are academy players)... yeah, that'll work out well.

Professional soccer won't go away, it'll just change to a real league where teams are actually trying to beat one another. Maybe instead of having the 12th best league in the world, we can have the 6th or 7th.

And those guys who can't make it in Europe are the one's who can't qualify for the World Cup as it is. Doesn't seem to be helping much.

The U17 thing is nice but if most of those guys stick around MLS it doesn't matter.

[bhlloy]

Does look like that's true about the U17 team, and that's definitely a step in the right direction. I guess the proof will be in how many of those players actually break through into MLS and become good players.

Really what the US is missing (and this isn't an argument for promotion/relegation) is competitive lower leagues. If you look at how many stars in other countries have come through multiple loan spells at lower levels, it's a pretty long list. I've been to a few USL games and from memory everyone is either old Mexican or American and crap or young, European and crap. If the choice is Europe (which most kids won't do), college (which just isn't good enough from a developmental standard) or MLS academy (which might be heading in the right direction but I'll believe it when I see teams blooding young talent rather than signing players that might bump their attendance up a few hundred) I don't think the US is ever going to get to the next level

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

(hint: A lot of the really good CONCACAF players outside of the Mexican National Team are MLS players, including Honduras' goal scorer Elis and Costa Rica's Urena who scored 2 against the US)

This is part of the problem, no? That so many players in MLS are from Central America and not good young American players?

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

Referring to losing to Germany in the quarterfinals at Japan/Korea 2002 here? (I doubt you mean the second place finish in the 2009 Confederations cup.)

Yes, the World Cup when he was 20. Though he did play at that same level (as did Dempsey) at intervening times subsequently. Fairly similar profile to Pulisic - small, slight, very fast guy who's best running at people, though I do think Pulisic has slightly better off ball movement than Donovan. (Though that's very hard to say for certain with how many different places on the field and systems both played in.)

Originally Posted by PilotMan

To be fair to TT, they've not quit playing and they've not played unfairly.

Yeah, that's a slur on soccer, but I find it's highly country specific. I think the Latin countries are much worse at that stuff, and even within Central America I'd say Guatemala, El Salvador & Honduras are on a whole different level than Panama or Costa Rica.

Originally Posted by kingfc22

So we can blame this failing on Trump right?

Hypothetically, if he invades & annexes Panama or Honduras, are we back in? #JustSayin'

Originally Posted by bhlloy

I need some of the FOFC police to tell me if this is an embarrassment yet that the US can't beat teams that spend a thousands of a fraction on their program and national league.

Oh, it's extremely embarrassing. Its just when people want to mock the US for losing to Panama etc, while simultaneously telling me I shouldn't be so happy when we're beating them "because it's only Panama", that I lash out.

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Gulati needs to go. The whole program needs to be torn down from the top to the bottom. You got 5 years to get things back on track.

+11111111111 Too bad he's not super corrupt, just super incompetent. I've never understood why everyone complains about US Soccer or MNT coaches/players, but allow Gulati and the small governing board free passes.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Professional soccer won't go away, it'll just change to a real league where teams are actually trying to beat one another. Maybe instead of having the 12th best league in the world, we can have the 6th or 7th.

Because that worked so well in the 1980s, especially when NASL teams started folding left and right.

Sometimes I wonder if people remember where US professional soccer was before the MLS started in 1996. I mean there was a reason that FIFA demanded the USSF start a Division 1 soccer league in order to host the 1994 World Cup - because we didn't really have one at the time.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Because that worked so well in the 1980s, especially when NASL teams started folding left and right.

Sometimes I wonder if people remember where US professional soccer was before the MLS started in 1996. I mean there was a reason that FIFA demanded the USSF start a Division 1 soccer league in order to host the 1994 World Cup - because we didn't really have one at the time.

Aren't we back to the 80's now? 5th or 6th best team in CONCACAF.

I'm not saying do away with professional soccer in this country. I'm just saying the MLS is a joke and not a real professional league. It's a weird ponzi scheme that is not benefiting US soccer in it's current setup.

[bbgunn]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

MLS is a joke and when the ponzi scheme collapses it'll be the best thing to happen to US soccer.

MLS is definitely a ponzi scheme, but that's not the crux of the problem. Ponzi scheme ain't played nobody.

The problem starts with young kids. First of all, the whole pay-for-play stuff. Why have kids pay to play soccer when the rest of the world pays parents to have their kids in their academies? You knock out a lot of talented kids right there. And yes, being such a big country, academies are not going to cover everywhere, at least not yet. But don't tell me you can't find talented kids in MLS metropolitan areas, or USL metropolitan areas. Get academies going, and that'll kill the whole pay-for-play shit.

And this nonsense about a college education? Teams need to offer scholarships for their kids to get a college education at a convenient time. Players shouldn't have to stifle their development as soccer players in order to get a college education.

And nobody here has mentioned it, but I'm sick and tired of people always saying that promotion/relegation will somehow make us better soccer players. Pro/rel ain't played nobody! If a player isn't developed by the time they're old enough to play in a league with pro/rel, then pro/rel is not going to help. You think Neymar experienced relegation when he was coming up with Santos? That didn't help him become a world-class player. What helped him was being in a situation in which he could develop as a kid.

As for MLS, maybe they don't have to get rid of the whole single-entity thing, but they do need to raise the salary cap by a substantial amount. It might not be the Big Four, but there's still a lot of money being poured into MLS. Look at all these soccer-specific stadiums they're building! Take some of that money and get some more talent.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Aren't we back to the 80's now? 5th or 6th best team in CONCACAF.

I'm not saying do away with professional soccer in this country. I'm just saying the MLS is a joke and not a real professional league. It's a weird ponzi scheme that is not benefiting US soccer in it's current setup.

No, we aren't the same as the 80s. We actually have a growing and actually profitable D1 league and cities are actually lining up to get franchises in it. If it was such an obvious ponzi scheme, I sincerely doubt you'd have so many lining up to be a part of it. Not to mention sponsors who continue to offer more than they did before (Adidas' re-upping of the kit deal being the latest example) No matter how much Bill Halsey and Ted Westervelt wish it to be true. Not to mention that expansion fees are in order to buy an equal share of MLS LLC to begin with and it's profitable contracts (including SUM, TV deals and sponsorship deals).

If you want to reinvent the wheel and find other owners who are willing to lose hundreds of millions to build foundations of a domestic D1 league, you are welcome to try to compete, but if you want to destroy MLS to do it, then you can count me out and I'll find another country's league or another sport to follow.

[ISiddiqui]

I mean, Hell, Szymanski has been making this MLS = ponzi scheme argument for a while (see article below from 2015). He just ignores all of the revenues streams (there is a reason that MLS is insisting on soccer specific stadiums for the next 4 expansion teams where the owners are in charge of revenue) in order to do so.

'Soccernomics' author says MLS' collapse is imminent. His argument is awful. - SBNation.com

Obviously expansion will end at some point, so if people seriously believe that MLS is a ponzi scheme then they should do nothing and it'll just collapse at that point. I'll bet that it doesn't.

[MrBug708]

Tata Martino please.