US Detains Children at Camp X-Ray

[JPhillips]

I don't even now what to think. How can we claim any moral superiority anymore? I'm ashamed at the depths we will sink to prosecute the war on terror.

Children at Gitmo

[Hammer755]

Originally posted by JPhillips
I don't even now what to think. How can we claim any moral superiority anymore? I'm ashamed at the depths we will sink to prosecute the war on terror.

Children at Gitmo

Regarding moral superiority; for one thing, they're still alive, which is more than you can say for many of our captured POW's in Iraq.

Look, I don't condone holding children in prison, but if they truly were 'enemy combatants,' what do you suggest be done with them?

[sachmo71]

I think we gave up the moral high ground a long time ago when Bush declared the "war on terror". If all terrorists are legal targets, then we have to be ready to capture or kill men, women and children. We can try to follow our Western moral code, but in the end, we will have to get as dirty as the people who seek to harm us. As a people we will either have to tune out our sensabilities, or accept casualties.

[CamEdwards]

I think we claim moral superiority in that we didn't kill these children, and we also don't use our own children to fight our wars for us.

You say you're ashamed. I'm assuming you'd rather the U.S. military have shot these kids instead of capturing them?

[JPhillips]

How about we charge them with a crime? Maybe we could present some evidence? As it is we are just holding them indefinately without any explanation other than the vague "enemy combatant".

Sachmo: I pray we don't "tune out our sensabilities". I don't want my country to sink to the depths of the terrorists. We are better than that. We shouldn't sacrifice our morality to ensure our security. Can holding these children really make me much safer? I doubt it.

[sianews]

You should have seen the PBS special on terrorist camps and the children they abduct and brainwash into them - then you'd feel their dention is justified.

[Easy Mac]

I'd say holding them now and releasing them later is just going to make them hate the US once they're out. What are we going to do with them later, execute them?

[NoMyths]

lol...it's funny listening to people make the argument that the only way we'd be in the wrong here is if we had killed them.

Here's an instructive example: say Mexico decided to invade Texas--reclamation of old lands, etc.--and it happened suddenly enough that everyone who could carry a gun grabbed one, or grabbed one of their father's guns. If a militia of men and kids held off the invaders we'd praise them as heroes. If they were captured, taken to a foreign country, and given no legal rights or contact with anyone, wouldn't you be a little upset?

I'm very concerned about the treatment of adult combatants at Gitmo, and I'm even more concerned about our treatment of the children there. The fact that all of this is just now coming to light--remember, they've been prisoners there for months and months now--is troubling. So is the reaction from some of you.

[JPhillips]

sianews: No I wouldn't. Just because the terrorists abuse children is no reason for us to abuse children. We are currently holding what I assume to be a small number of children at Gitmo. Are we educating them? Are we offering them any hope? Are we willing to even hint that they can one day get out? We are willing to condemn these children for our safety and I say that is immoral and unjust.

[MrBug708]

In war, there is no charging them with crimes when you detain them

[NoMyths]

dola...

I also think it's instructive to learn about the detention camps that the United States herded tens of thousands of Japanese and Japanese-Americans into during World War II.

[NoMyths]

MrBug: War was never declared.

[Fritz]

can someone post the meat of the article? I can't get to it for some reason.

[MrBug708]

I never did say declared war did I?

[MrBug708]

Children held at Camp Xray, US admits
The US military has revealed it is holding juveniles at its high-security prison for terrorists at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba, known as Camp Xray.

The commander of the joint task force at Guantanamo, Major General Geoffrey Miller, says more than one child under the age of 16 is at the detention centre.

However, Maj Gen Miller has revealed little more about their welfare.

Maj Gen Miller says the US is holding "juvenile enemy combatants" at the centre, confirming rumours of children being held.

He has refused to reveal how many there are, their exact ages or their countries of origin.

He says they are being well cared for and are kept in facilities separate to adult prisoners.

The children are still being interrogated and will continue to be held at Guantanamo.

About 660 prisoners are in the camp.

They have not been tried or convicted of any offence but are being held as part of what the US calls its war on terror.

[MrBug708]

Dola (and another for the article)

Sounds like there are probably 2-3 kids. Maybe the LeBron James of the Terriorist world

[NoMyths]

Originally posted by MrBug708
I never did say declared war did I?

You said war. My understanding was that we undertook another one of those "police actions" against another nation. If it's not a declared war, how is grabbing enemy combatants under non-war rules different from police arresting rioters?

[Hammer755]

Originally posted by NoMyths
dola...

I also think it's instructive to learn about the detention camps that the United States herded tens of thousands of Japanese and Japanese-Americans into during World War II.

How does that compare to this situation? Were those interred in Japanese involved in direct conflict with America? Nope. Were those interred in Gitmo involved in direct conflict with America? Yep. Two completely incomparable situations.

[Hammer755]

Originally posted by NoMyths
Here's an instructive example: say Mexico decided to invade Texas--reclamation of old lands, etc.--and it happened suddenly enough that everyone who could carry a gun grabbed one, or grabbed one of their father's guns. If a militia of men and kids held off the invaders we'd praise them as heroes. If they were captured, taken to a foreign country, and given no legal rights or contact with anyone, wouldn't you be a little upset?

Yet another false analogy. To correct it would be to require that Texas invaded Mexico first, whereby the Mexicans were justified in their rebuttal towards the Texans.

[NoMyths]

Yeah, I guess the detainment of foreign nationals in the 40's and the detainment of foreign nationals in the 00's are so completely incomparable no parallels can be made. My mistake. Thanks for clearing that up, Hammer.

[MrBug708]

Originally posted by JPhillips
I don't even now what to think. How can we claim any moral superiority anymore? I'm ashamed at the depths we will sink to prosecute the war on terror.[/url]

The word war was used in the opening antagonistic post, why can't I?

[sachmo71]

If we don't sink to their depths, or at least do it "black", then we risk never winning this war. If we don't want to win, what's the point in even fighting it?

[Hammer755]

Originally posted by NoMyths
Yeah, I guess the detainment of foreign nationals in the 40's and the detainment of foreign nationals in the 00's are so completely incomparable no parallels can be made. My mistake. Thanks for clearing that up, Hammer.

Last time I checked, those in Gitmo are not foreign nationals who were living in the US. Perhaps I'm wrong.

[Fritz]

People reach majority much earlier.

from the CIA factbook:

"Suffrage:
NA; previously males 15-50 years of age"

more importantly, a combatant is a combatant.

[Butter]

Originally posted by CamEdwards
I think we claim moral superiority in that we didn't kill these children, and we also don't use our own children to fight our wars for us.

You say you're ashamed. I'm assuming you'd rather the U.S. military have shot these kids instead of capturing them?

Have you ever criticized anything the Bush administration has done? Please point me to something.... ANYTHING.

[MrBug708]

Whats wrong with saying nothing critical?

[JPhillips]

Sachmo: How can holding a few children ensure my safety? I see very little benefit to this, but a lot of downside. We can't sink to the level of those we fight. Would you have approved of gas chambers for Germans? Of course not. In the greatest country in the world we need to hold ourselves to higher standards than terrorists. If we become them, what have we won?

[MrBug708]

Is there a huge difference between someone willing to die for a cause at 15 or 18?

[JPhillips]

Mr Bug- When did they become 15? All we know is that they are under 16. They could be 15 or 12 for all we know.

[MrBug708]

15 is under 16 and thats the number I randomly picked. I picked two 15 year olds are being detained. Whether you have a problem with that I don't really care

[sianews]

These are not children (regardless of their age), they are trained killers that were indoctorinated into terrorism from day 1 and would not think twice about killing you and your family. Some time in Gitmo will do them good.

[MrBug708]

JPhillips, are you saying the US randomly picked kids they saw on the street and deemed them terrorists without checking things out?

[NoMyths]

lol

[JPhillips]

sianews: Do you have proof for that statement? As far as I know no info has been released about these children. If you have some info would you please post it?

Mrbug: Don't get testy. My point is that there is a big difference between 12 and 16. There is also a big difference between 15 and 18. I've been around high school kids a lot recently and the difference between a freshman and a senior is profound.

[sachmo71]

We lost our innocence in the weeks following 9/11. Our government put forth a policy which called for total war on terrorism an those countries that support it. Unfortuantely, when you are dealing with a war against terrorists (or freedom fighters if you prefer), than you won't be fighting enemy regiments made up of predominately males aged 18-29. You will be fighting men, women and children...anyone that the enemy can convince to blow themselves up in the name of whatever cause they are supporting.

I have no idea what these children did to get detained by our government. Are we safer having them in X-Ray? I have no way of knowing what these children are capible of. Maybe I am safer...who knows?

Let me explain something that I may not have made clear yet...I lament the loss of innocence that our country has suffered. The reality of the war on terrorism, and the actions that will be required to keep this country safe from now until at least the end of my life, are not things that we as a people would condone. Those days are gone now. We've been thrust into a conflict with a faceless enemy who will use any means necessary to destroy us for reasons that I personally cannot be held responsible for. But if keeping my loved ones alive costs me my morality and causes me to be branded as an "evil person", I for one will pay that price. My morality does me no good if I am dead.

[JPhillips]

MrBug: I'm saying holding children under 16 indefinately without charging them with a crime or presenting any evidence against them isn't something we should be proud of.

[sachmo71]

JPhillips, where are you getting the information saying that they haven't been charged with a crime and that they are being held indefinately?

[JPhillips]

Sachmo: Undersatndable. For me, I worry that giving up my morality even if it ensures my life is a bargain with the devil. I don't mean to criticize you, because I don't really like to use religion to make arguments. For me, the price I will pay after death is something to keep in mind.

[MrBug708]

Mrbug: Don't get testy. My point is that there is a big difference between 12 and 16. There is also a big difference between 15 and 18. I've been around high school kids a lot recently and the difference between a freshman and a senior is profound.

I'm not really that testy. If we are comparing it to talking to a girl or whether they can play varsity water polo of course. Holding a gun doesn't take any skill.

MrBug: I'm saying holding children under 16 indefinately without charging them with a crime or presenting any evidence against them isn't something we should be proud of.

So, if we charged them with terrorist threats, it would make holding them all the better?

[Butter]

Originally posted by MrBug708
Whats wrong with saying nothing critical?

It just kinda proves that instead of being interested in actually arguing a point, you're more interested in pushing an agenda, IMO.

Oh, I forgot, criticizing the administration is treasonous.

[MrBug708]

Oh, I forgot, criticizing the administration is treasonous.

And not criticizing means your pushing an agenda?

[JPhillips]

Sachmo: That's been the story since X-Ray was set up. We are using the enemy combatant designation as a way to avoid some of the Geneva protocols that come with calling someone a prisoner of war. To date no one at X-Ray has been charged with anything other than being an enemy combatabt. No evidence has been made public, and no trials or hearings have been set. Because no one has been charged with any crimes or sentenced to any prison terms, these people are currently being held indefinately with no scheduled date of release.

[sachmo71]

Originally posted by JPhillips
Sachmo: That's been the story since X-Ray was set up. We are using the enemy combatant designation as a way to avoid some of the Geneva protocols that come with calling someone a prisoner of war. To date no one at X-Ray has been charged with anything other than being an enemy combatabt. No evidence has been made public, and no trials or hearings have been set. Because no one has been charged with any crimes or sentenced to any prison terms, these people are currently being held indefinately with no scheduled date of release.

Thanks...to be honest I've tried to ignore the whole Camp X-Ray thing. It's a bit too messy for me.

[JPhillips]

MrBug: Of course presenting evidence of a crime would be better. It would also be better to educate these children and provide a method for them to be released.

Gotta go guys.

[MrBug708]

None of us really have any insight on whats going on. These kids could be trained killers or just some scared kid who is in the wrong place at the wrong time. Its stupid to really assume anything, its just the way this post was created that irratated me. Talk about baiting

[Butter]

Originally posted by MrBug708
And not criticizing means your pushing an agenda?

NEVER criticizing means you're pushing an agenda... so does ALWAYS criticizing, for that matter, IMO.

[RonnieDobbs]

War is not a fun time of flowers and ring-around-the-rosie. And we are in a war against terrorism. You can debate it all you want, but I believe the administration that is running this thing believes they are conducting a war against terrorism, ergo it is a war.

Children are maleable. Children are often a favorite target for indoctrination and training by terrorist groups. As scary as it is to think, children are very likely plotting to kill Americans somewhere as I type this.

So, this is a difficult situation. I'm not heartless; I can see that these children have been misguided and that they are, after all, still children. However, they would also not hesitate to kill me and my family if they could. How is it best to deal with this situation? Let them go? Say, "We'll be back once you're 18. Don't kill too many Americans before then."

It is unbelievably difficult to break through brainwashing. I'm not certain that this is what is happening to the children there, but if I had to guess I'd imagine they're trying to get information from them and also break through all the indoctrination.

I'm not comfortable with the U.S. detaining children in such a way. But am I more comfortable with those children being free to act against America? Nope.

[RonnieDobbs]

Dola...

My post makes the assumption that these children and not being held for ridiculous reasons. I honestly believe that we have nothing to gain by imprisoning completely innocent 14 year olds, and that that isn't what's happening. If you disagree with me here, then you won't agree with me above.

[JPhillips]

Mrbug: How did I bait anyone? I presented a story from a credible news source thatsays the US is detaing children under 16. I said I was ashamed and asked how we could claim moral superiority. Is that baiting? Is anything that disagrees with a position takn by this administration default baiting?

[EagleFan]

Why are you viewing enemy combatants as children? Just because our society has a set of 'rules' for age doesn't mean that every country does. Also, I have not seen the answer to the question of what makes someone trained to fight to the death for a cause at the age of 15 less dangerous than one at the age of 18. Are they given different bullets that only hurt you and not kill you? Do they get the 'real' stuff at the age of 18?