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Old 04-10-2007, 09:36 PM   #601
Autumn
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Originally Posted by Alan T View Post
There was a replacement lawyer.

Ah, thank you for pointing that out. I had missed that.
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Old 04-10-2007, 09:38 PM   #602
Barkeep49
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My guess is that either Swaggs or SnDvls was not a bad guy kill but rather one of the people who could be hired out which makes it just as likely that one of them was as much a Senatorial grudge as a Tarquoin grudge.
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Old 04-10-2007, 09:48 PM   #603
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Well, some thoughts in case I forget it all in the morning:

I'm interested in knowing what happened with our second arrest. Did Saldanus Lathumus not make an attempt, or was the arrest thwarted somehow?

I'd like to hear what other services people used, and any information they gained from them. I think this day it's important for us to arrest some good suspects.

I would like to hear from our fellow Senator Bulletus Spongeus. If we need to arrest and lynch randomly, it makes sense to target our quieter members. We need to leave now shadows of silence for the traitors to hide in. Unless we hear something convincing from this senator today I will be likely to want to convict, if only to scare any quiet members into action today.

Did anything come of all these lawsuits? Should we continue down that path? I will probably sue a list of people who seem at all suspect to me at this point if so.

I would urge anyone who has the ability to investigate members to today investigate our new consuls. That will give us some evidence for whether to follow through any arrests they make today.
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Old 04-10-2007, 09:50 PM   #604
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Originally Posted by Barkeep49 View Post
My guess is that either Swaggs or SnDvls was not a bad guy kill but rather one of the people who could be hired out which makes it just as likely that one of them was as much a Senatorial grudge as a Tarquoin grudge.

Do you have evidence that any such grudges exist? If one of our Senators is willing to kill another for personal gain, I would paint them a traitor as much as any Tarquin sympathizer. Myself, I hold no grudges against any loyal Senator, and have no goals other than rooting out the traitors. Perhaps others in the Senate have additional goals?
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Old 04-10-2007, 09:52 PM   #605
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I'm still looking for a replacement for WVUFan. I've sent a couple of pms, but no luck yet. Anybody have any ideas?

tanglewood still playing WW?
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Old 04-10-2007, 09:52 PM   #606
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My guess is that either Swaggs or SnDvls was not a bad guy kill but rather one of the people who could be hired out which makes it just as likely that one of them was as much a Senatorial grudge as a Tarquoin grudge.

Either that, or as someone mentioned before, the services dictate what abilities both good and bad guy have for the night. They got a legionaire, which allowed them to do some stabby stabby, and got someone who could poison as well.

Or they got the stabbity guy, and can poison once per day/night/whateverwe're callingitthisgame as a matter of course.
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Old 04-10-2007, 09:53 PM   #607
st.cronin
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doh, forgot the Primer

Today you must vote on the guilt or innocence of Bulletus Spongeus. A majority vote is required to execute him.
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Old 04-10-2007, 09:54 PM   #608
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tanglewood still playing WW?

I've seen him lurking, I sent him a pm, but he hasn't responded.
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Old 04-10-2007, 09:54 PM   #609
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I've seen him lurking, I sent him a pm, but he hasn't responded.

Ah well, he woulda been my first choice.

Could send flowers to Blade, of course.
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Old 04-10-2007, 09:56 PM   #610
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Of course, there's new school - Johnathan E or old school - WSUCougar.
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Old 04-10-2007, 09:56 PM   #611
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Neq?
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Old 04-10-2007, 09:59 PM   #612
Abe Sargent
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Not a bad choice
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Old 04-10-2007, 09:59 PM   #613
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I told what my hired service did. Can people tell us what the warlord and the priest does and who hired them?
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Old 04-10-2007, 10:02 PM   #614
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king would be a good choice too
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Old 04-10-2007, 10:04 PM   #615
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Other plays I can think of that aren;t playing include:

Fouts
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Old 04-10-2007, 10:07 PM   #616
Alan T
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I told what my hired service did. Can people tell us what the warlord and the priest does and who hired them?

Oh and the sex dealers too
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Old 04-10-2007, 10:07 PM   #617
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Old 04-10-2007, 10:09 PM   #618
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Old 04-10-2007, 10:18 PM   #619
Tyrith
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We should probably start talking about bullet now. Alan, why him?
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Old 04-10-2007, 10:32 PM   #620
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Alanus Teeus - I am curious what the reasoning is behind your switch on the services. About 5 hours ago you posted this regarding the services for hire:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan T - post #459 View Post
What else do you want to know this early in the day? I personally think that is too much for right now, and am a bit dissapointed at people who revealed such.

And just now you posted this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan T - post #613 View Post
I told what my hired service did. Can people tell us what the warlord and the priest does and who hired them?
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Old 04-10-2007, 10:36 PM   #621
Alan T
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We should probably start talking about bullet now. Alan, why him?

I've already addressed this. I would appreciate it if everyone would answer my questions too though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan T View Post
For the record, today I chose to arrest Bulletsponge. I am disclosing this now as I will be busy for a few hours in a sec, and can't wait for the release of the information now.

It was a decision between Lonestargirl, Imthecrew, Daddytorgo and Bulletsponge.

I almost chose Daddytorgo for a jump on vote on Coffee Warlord, as well as failing to elect any consuls. In the end I chose bulletsponge. I feel he has not been too active, and what he did say did not stick with me as anything substantial. Also I fear that he does not seem to want to play for the whole and plays more for himself. This is once again not someone being arrested due to me having any proof of them, but moreso someone I arrested to try to limit the risk of someone being lynched that might contribute alot later.

Perhaps Bulletsponge's activity will pick up, but I can't see the future.
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Old 04-10-2007, 10:38 PM   #622
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Originally Posted by Ironhead View Post
Alanus Teeus - I am curious what the reasoning is behind your switch on the services. About 5 hours ago you posted this regarding the services for hire:



And just now you posted this:

I didn't change anything. You are being really selective in your quotes eh? Some hidden agenda here? You chose not to quote the times I said wait till the end of the day and only quoted a part of my intentions? People can on their own go back and see what I really said if they want and not what you are trying to pretend I said.
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Old 04-10-2007, 10:41 PM   #623
Tyrith
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Going to go the route of pressure. If you can come up with a good reason why you shouldn't die, bullet, let me know.

VOTE BULLET
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Old 04-10-2007, 10:44 PM   #624
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VOTE KILL BULLET

Just to be clear.
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Old 04-10-2007, 10:51 PM   #625
Ironhead
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Yup, I can vouch for what he said because I was the one that hired Ardent Enthusiast. Thanks Coffee Warlord you are now in my Circle of Trust. The person I had investigated was AlanT and he has done nothing wrong. I could have had Ardent prosecute Coffee Warlord but chose not to.

I'm in a rush so I'll just leave it at that and let ya'll take it for what it's worth but for now my CoT:

Coffee Warlord
Kwhit
AlanT
Dodgerchick (of course)

I have some catching up to do but wont be able to until much later.

I kinda have to challenge the thinking behind this list. The lawyers apparently have no knowledge of what actions they are taking for their clients. How are we to take your word that AlanT was actually scanned? And why did you scan AlanT given that he was backing you for Consul? Did his vote for you inspire some level of distrust? There seems to be an awful lot of fake reveal potential to these lawyer scans as they cannot be verified. Anyone who has enough money to hire them has the ability to be a fake seer unless someone takes the time to "rescan" someone.

The fact that Coffee Warlord has said he also scanned someone in no way proves his innocence. All it proves to me is that he did actually hire a lawyer, which was confirmed in the public record. He even chose to scan a player that more than half of the board felt was trustworthy enough to vote as Consul. He could definitely be good, but I think it is dangerous to place him on such a high level of trust on the 3rd day.
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Old 04-10-2007, 10:51 PM   #626
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I didn't change anything. You are being really selective in your quotes eh? Some hidden agenda here? You chose not to quote the times I said wait till the end of the day and only quoted a part of my intentions? People can on their own go back and see what I really said if they want and not what you are trying to pretend I said.
Just so people are clear how Ironhead is being fairly misleading with his comments/questions.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan T View Post
I
While I do agree that understanding what the different services provide us, for now we must hide some of that in the shadows in order to keep those who might be disloyal to our republic guessing at who is a safer target. I will be happy to share more information on what I do know later in the evening, but for now I would like to encourage others to not reveal just yet what service they did purchase.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan T View Post
What else do you want to know this early in the day? I personally think that is too much for right now, and am a bit dissapointed at people who revealed such.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan T View Post

I still stand by the thought that I like my plan the best, after the deadline, people can disclose information on the services they purchased, how they used it, what it did, etc. Just makes no sense giving the tarqs a roadmap for their efforts.

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Old 04-10-2007, 10:52 PM   #627
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Well based on what we've seen so far, the poisoning death is definitely the traitors. The sword death is probably them too, maybe one of the services is an assassin of some kind, that one of the traitors hired. If there is a service like that we need to find out as soon as we can, and keep it under loyalist control if possible.
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Old 04-10-2007, 11:00 PM   #628
Ironhead
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Alan - Not trying to misquote you, I honestly did not remember the very last post about revealing things after the deadline. But my point is still the same. If you are worried about giving the Tarquins a "roadmap" for their efforts what is the advantage to the village of revealing this information now?
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Old 04-10-2007, 11:05 PM   #629
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Well, there is a slight advantage to be gained in terms of trust. I can vouch for Alan's explanation of the horsemen - I've gained access to them at some point in the game and his explanation of the mechanic is true.

So we can at least begin to connect dots in terms of who hired what services. At least, we can do this with Alan as long as he is a servant of Rome. There is a possibility that Tarqs gained the horses yesterday and had Alan speak on the matter to gain this trust. Fun 2nd level thinking with WW, but with another person semi-vouching for him in Dodgerchick I think Alan moves into a little higher trust than the rest of the pack for now.
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Old 04-10-2007, 11:10 PM   #630
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Alan - Not trying to misquote you, I honestly did not remember the very last post about revealing things after the deadline. But my point is still the same. If you are worried about giving the Tarquins a "roadmap" for their efforts what is the advantage to the village of revealing this information now?

Because like I said before, knowing what the services do help us as well as them. Knowing who has ownership of that service for the day really only helps them. And people thinking there aren't wealthy traitors are likely just fooling themselves, its only a matter of time till they figure out the services on their own, which gives them yet another upper hand if we choose to not discuss the effects of the roles.
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Old 04-10-2007, 11:30 PM   #631
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Mustang is taking WVUFan's spot.
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knives out

Last edited by st.cronin : 04-11-2007 at 06:01 PM.
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Old 04-10-2007, 11:34 PM   #632
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I'll do my best to get up to speed as quick as possible....
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Old 04-10-2007, 11:37 PM   #633
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Old 04-10-2007, 11:39 PM   #634
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I guess WVU didn't have a chance to make alot of friends or enemies with his 2 posts so, that helps.
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Old 04-10-2007, 11:48 PM   #635
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Old 04-10-2007, 11:48 PM   #636
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Welcome to the show Mustang.
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Old 04-10-2007, 11:54 PM   #637
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I never liked that WVU Fanus, or whatever his name was
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Old 04-11-2007, 12:18 AM   #638
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I'm just so confused about everything.
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Old 04-11-2007, 01:48 AM   #639
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Well that seemed to be a rather uncommonly bad day one. (although they all seem to be) We don't get two prisoners to vote on and we get two guys killed. We seem to be playing glibly along into the hands of the wolves. I'm going to get this out of the way now though.

Vote Execute Bulletsponge

Following his play in the Cold War game I have absolutely no qualms in killing him. Either he's a bad guy which is a great result or he's a villager who won't be making any effort to help the good side. As far as I'm concerned the only use he is to us is as a body number and I'd rather learn more about the mechanics of execution than keep an extra body around. I'm being intentionally blunt about this. This isn't even really a pressure vote to get bulletsponge talking, although I'll be interested to hear what he has to say.

I'm pretty upset that, in the end, there were only 4 votes to execute Coffee - and there seemed to be a whole lot of people who didn't vote one way or the other. With a close vote we might have gained some information that could be used later. As it is we don't know a thing. (other than the fact that we need a majority + 3 to be absolutely sure of executing someone).
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Old 04-11-2007, 02:11 AM   #640
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I'm pretty mad about the fact that we have only one person to vote for today, though I don't feel as bad about killing bulletsponge as I would have for CW.

My question is, exactly what are we hoping to learn by killing someone? We throw off rock, splat, dead. I'm curious what kind of mechanics you're thinking of Narcizo.
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Old 04-11-2007, 02:14 AM   #641
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I probably shouldn't have mentioned that. I've noticed something but I don't really want to go into my theory right now and possibly give the bad guys a bit more information to act on. But I do think we'll learn something from an execution.
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Old 04-11-2007, 02:16 AM   #642
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I'm going with the mechanic of you need to lynch to win as the village.

VOTE TO EXECUTE BULLETUS SPONGUS

btw, Saldana why did you not arrest anyone?
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Old 04-11-2007, 02:22 AM   #643
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What I would like to see is for everyone to state who they would like to see arrested today. We don't get a normal lynch vote here but we can act as though we did. That way it would be possible to keep some sort of extra voting record. Obviously it will be easy for the wolves to avoid committing to anything or they can just make a throwaway vote but if everyone commits to it I think it will provide a little bit more information for us to use.

Personally I'd vote to lynch ImTheCrew. His general MO is to be under the radar but he did state that he was going to be more present yesterday. Only to disappear completely from view again. I do have a couple of qualms though 1) he can probably get a lawyer for tomorrow so we'd need a huge majority to convict and 2) I wonder if a wolf would be quite so quiet. It's almost drawing attention to himself. But I'm going to stick with my stated policy of being very suspicious of UTR guys early on and ITC fits the ticket perfectly.
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Old 04-11-2007, 02:41 AM   #644
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barkeep49 View Post
I'm guessing saldana didn't realize he could arrest someone because of WVU's absence.

Apparently not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by saldana View Post
i am the Tribune, so apparently, the duty will fall to me if no replacement is found

Which makes me very in hearing why saldana didn't arrest someone. I also note that he voted to execute CW but then changed his vote when it was becoming clear that CW would be freed. Those two things put together just seem a bit suspicious to me.

Although looking through I don't think it makes a whole heap of difference as there's absolutely nothing we can do to remove saldana. He's got a ticket for life unless he's killed as we can't arrest him.

Apart from that I hope we get BG protection for the Consuls today, so we can finally look forward to a two-candidate vote tomorrow without the wolves slowing us down even more with a consul kill.
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Old 04-11-2007, 03:36 AM   #645
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan T View Post
As for the conversation about who is more likely a wolf, the quiet players or the loud and out front players, I find many different people's comments confusing a bit to me and perhaps even to the point of having some agenda behind them.

Its a very easy point of reference that is true in every game.

Its very unusual for all of the wolves to be loud or all of them to be quiet. Most often you have 1 or a couple of louder, out front wolves helping drive conversation in certain directions. You also usually have 1 or a couple of wolves who hide in the shadows and avoid attention. This means you can't say people who are quiet are wolves, or people who are loud or out front are wolves.

Villagers who are quiet = don't contribute much, and if lynched less likely to be lynching people who will help you win.

Wolves who are quiet = if you lynch them, it helps remove someone who could do alot of harm behind the scenes without drawing much suspicion.

Villagers who are noisy = Usually draw alot of attention on themselves, often end up costing the village time in lynching good villagers who just were overeager. Usually later in the game will be active and involved in conversation.

Wolves who are noisy = Lynching them usually helps you put together some pieces as they often say alot during the game, and you can go off of what they say (or perhaps dont say) to determine your next steps.

So, thats the reasoning behind my conversation earlier with Narcizo about who we think are the quieter wolves are. I'll probably go for someone whom I don't find contributing much right now today with my arrest, however by no means do I think that means someone making a bold in your face play isn't a wolf. Also I don't necessarily feel post count = quiet or not either. Some people talk alot but say very little.

I agree that there are normally quiet and active wolves but I think this is more down to randomness than some sort of masterplan by the wolves. I would imagine that wolves all try and mimic their villager game to avoid looking suspiciously active or quiet. So if ITC suddenly started a game with a flurry of posts then I'd be very suspicious of him. This makes him look damned if he does and damned if he doesn't now - but I would suggest he gradually starts to participate more.

However, I still think the policy of weeding out the quiet players early on is a sound one, even if there are going to be some active wolves. While someone being active or quiet is no guarantee of their allegiance I don't think there's any doubt that active villager players generally further the cause of the village more than quiet ones. There is also more opportunity that an active wolf will slip up and post something incriminating. (admittedly there is also the danger of that from an active villager - I thought I'd incriminated myself by talking too much in the Big City game). As a villager I would always rather have a game where everyone is talking than one where nothing is being said, particularly early on. (Then again, I like there to be lots of talk for me to build up elaborate conspiracy theories around )

If this makes me look like I'm pushing too hard in one direction or having an agenda then so be it. My conviction is that going after quiet players at the start is correct play and I don't see any reason not to repeat that conviction. I do have an agenda - getting people to post more.

Totally agree about the dangers of blindly using the post counter to determine "contribution" though.
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Old 04-11-2007, 03:45 AM   #646
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A lot to digest today. First, two notes that deal directly with me:

Swaggs, I actually voted for others than me, not out of any lack of confidence whatsoever, but because of my nature to not be "selfish" in such choices. I will always choose to give before I choose to take. I do believe I am the best for4 being a consul, and in the future I will vote that way, if for any reason than to show I know this to be true.

LSG, why do you assume venom on me? You want to skip right past the arrest and straight to the rock? And with no explanation either. Very poor form. In fact, above and beyond that it involves me directly, I have to say it was the single strangest public action taken yet in this game and deserves considerable scrutiny.

Now as the goings ons. Does anyone now think being a lawyer is anything but a death sentence? Between investigative abilities and the influence they may have on arrest trials and lawsuits, I would think good lawyers are the last people wolves would want to keep alive--and they will know who is good or not. So I would be very suspicious if a lawyer continued to stay alive unless he was continuously protected via bodyguard.

I think it would be a good idea to track lawsuit success. I believe AlanT is on to something in that the individual suits themselves may have no bearing on the results, just the matchup of the individuals suing and being sued. A close look at this might reveal a different ranking system involving influence that could be just as important as the one involving wealth.

I think the services are used in the kills. The types of services available depend on whether the player hiring the service is good or bad. This has already been supposed by others, but I think this is even more obvious from the fact that there were no wolf actions on Day One. Of course they could not kill then--they, too, had to wait the day out and successfully purchase their services. This might also indicate that those who are more wealthy would be suspicious in situations where we have a number of deaths. For instance, today, we have two deaths. If services can be used to execute kills and we assume five wolves, that means a fringe faction (15-20% wolf) won two of the seven (28%) non-lawyer services (a sword-wielding one, and a poison-using one). That would suggest there is at least a small concentration of wolves in amongst our wealthiest. It is too small a sample size right now to just start picking off the wealthy, but it is food for thought.

I am around right now, and will be around most of the day tomorrow before leaving for work, so I encourage anyone who has questions for me to ask them. I will be glad to respond.
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Old 04-11-2007, 03:51 AM   #647
Chief Rum
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Further thought--let's say services can be used for kills, as I believe.

Then we should have everyone reveal who successfully bought a service on Day One, and how they used it. I know some of this has alreayd come out. Who used the sexslaves, though? Or the priest, wasn't there one of those? Or the other horse trader?

I don't think the people who bought and won services for Day Two should announce. As AlanT said, that gives the Tarqs too much of a roadmap by which to go by. But the Day One services are bought and gone. If we know who bought every service that day and how they used it, we can put to rest whether or not these services are the tools by which the Tarqs may kill.

BTW, if this is true, it also behooves us to have good be rich and constantly buying services. If you are good and wealthy and are NOT buying a service, you are not helping the side of the Senate and Republic.
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Old 04-11-2007, 04:08 AM   #648
Narcizo
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Final votes -

(14) Kwhit - Sndvls (283), Ardent (327), Coffee Warlord (359), Narcizo (363), Anxiety (374), Tyrith (375), Bulletsponge (395), Imthecrew (412), Chief Rum (423), Peregrine (424), Lonestargirl (431), Swaggs (439), KWhit (448), Barkeep (450), Schmidty (483), Dodgerchick (488), Ironhead (494)
(10) Barkeep - Barkeep (285), Grammaticus (400), Ardent (408), Imthecrew (412), Saldana (416), Narcizo (429), Tyrith (434), KWhit (448), SnDvls (451), path (493), Antmeister (498)
(5) Dodgerchick - Alan T (333), Dodgerchick (488), Hoopsguy (489), path (493), Marc Vaughan (495)
(5) Hoopsguy - Neon_chaos (427), Grammaticus (457), Marc Vaughan (460), Schmidty (483), Hoopsguy (489)
(2) Chief Rum - Swaggs (342), Anxiety (370)
(2) Autumn - Swaggs (366), Coffee Warlord (417)
(2) Narcizo - Chief Rum (423), Peregrine (479)
(1) Peregrine - Neon_chaos (428)
(1) Swaggs - Alan T (442)
(1) Coffee - saldana (492)
(1) Neon Chaos - Ironhead (494)
(1) Grammaticus - Antmeister (498)

prisoner vote:
(4) Throw CW off rock - Barkeep (285), Narcizo (298), Anxiety (370), DaddyTorgo (393),
Innocent - Ardent (312), Coffee (359), bulletsponge (395), SnDvls (401), ImTheCrew (412), Chief Rum (423), Peregrine (424), Schmidty (483), Dodgerchick (488), hoopsguy (489), path (493), Ironhead (494), Antmeister (498),
Voted/Unvoted Tyrith (286/403), Swaggs (294/397), Grammaticus (400/457), Saldana (416/492)

Back with a couple of observations about this in a bit.
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Old 04-11-2007, 04:16 AM   #649
Peregrine
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Can we elect more lawyers? One is already dead, the other might be on his way out, unless protected. I guess if we can't we'll just have to use the generic NPC lawyers. I haven't done a lot of back-checking, but SnDvls seems sort of a random kill, especially as it was by sword, a service almost certainly.
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Old 04-11-2007, 04:35 AM   #650
Chief Rum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peregrine View Post
Can we elect more lawyers? One is already dead, the other might be on his way out, unless protected. I guess if we can't we'll just have to use the generic NPC lawyers. I haven't done a lot of back-checking, but SnDvls seems sort of a random kill, especially as it was by sword, a service almost certainly.

Heh, the oldest WW (Peregrine) and the newest WW (Autumn) make the same mistake.

Schmidty was named the second-best lawyer, with AE moving up a spot to #1. It seems likely there will always be two lawyers. Your guess is as good as mine as to whether there is a set list for this or if a player is chosen at random.
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