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Old 08-05-2015, 11:46 AM   #301
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This season has been great, the show is great. People are spoiled babies.

/analysis
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Old 08-05-2015, 12:22 PM   #302
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To be fair, GOT is also very convoluted like this, and it's doing fine.

But, yes, generally, I agree with you.

In terms of characters and associations? Sure. But from a plot perspective it's not even close.
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Old 08-05-2015, 05:35 PM   #303
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Really enjoyed the last two episodes and I'm actually pretty excited about the finale.

Btw, this is a great article from Slate going through the plot of TD in excruciating detail... it'll likely clear up a ton of confusion (it did for me):

True Detective Season 2: A guide to the plot of this confusing season.

Bravo, thank you for this!
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Old 08-10-2015, 09:40 AM   #304
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It's over.
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Old 08-10-2015, 09:44 AM   #305
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I really, really liked that finale. It moves slow in the beginning, but a good kind of slow, not the crappy slow of the first half of the season. It felt really noir-ish. Especially in the last 45 minutes, where when you think Velcoro and Semyon may get out, the system they are trapped in comes back to wrench them in the dirt. With, of course, a ton of red herrings. A really brilliant end for Semyon as well - that was a great scene walking in the desert with his demons coming back.
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Old 08-10-2015, 09:46 AM   #306
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And I'm thinking that the sad part is that the show was actually quite good after the massive shootout. Don't know why they couldn't have done a decent job with the first 4.
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Old 08-10-2015, 04:35 PM   #307
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I don't know, the whole season left me feeling "meh". I think if the first 5-6 episodes would have gotten me more invested in these characters, I might have enjoyed the finale more. But, the combination of a disjointed story with characters I never really invested in ruined any chance of a great finale.
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Old 08-10-2015, 09:41 PM   #308
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I thought the finale was great. Tied up everything for me.. especially after reading through that link ISiddiqui posted.
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Old 08-11-2015, 11:10 AM   #309
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I think it was as good as it could have been given the start.
Spoiler


Looking back, I think had Frank and Paul not been in the show, it might have had a better flow. One the one end, you would have Ray and Bezzerides working the case from the Vinci vs. Ventura angle. You could have spent more time diving into these twins (maybe having them pair up with the two disgraced/setup police later in the season). Then, on the other end, focus more on the mayor's kid and Osip conspiring with Geldof, Chief Holloway and Burris on the corruption side. I think that would have made for a better story and we could have traded in Frank-Jordan Dr Phil sessions and Paul's PTSD/gay dilemma for deeper dives on the twins, the mayor's family and maybe some flashbacks to the robbery in 1992.

In the end, this show tried to do too much too fast and ended up spending way too much time on things that just didn't matter - while the main plot points flew by in the background.
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Old 08-11-2015, 11:38 AM   #310
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I can get behind the not having Paul, but I liked the Frank arc and I think Vaughn actually did quite a good job. I think Frank is also essential to the plot in a way that Paul wasn't.
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Old 08-11-2015, 12:15 PM   #311
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Compared to what season one was, is season two worth watching as a whole?
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Old 08-11-2015, 01:14 PM   #312
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Compared to what season one was, is season two worth watching as a whole?

If your going to compare it, then nothing is worth watching. Season 1 was that amazing.

If you can separate it, because it's an entirely different story, style, etc... then yes
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Old 08-11-2015, 01:19 PM   #313
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I can get behind the not having Paul, but I liked the Frank arc and I think Vaughn actually did quite a good job. I think Frank is also essential to the plot in a way that Paul wasn't.
Looking back, I think Vaughn did the best he could. I just feel the character didn't add much and involved a ton of tangents that took away from the story. Things like the drama with his wife, Blake's odd role in all this, the mexican drug lords being shoe-horned at the end and who can forget Stan! None of that really integrated with the Casper murder, the Catalyst-Mayor deal, the twins involvement, or the original robbery and the cop corruption. It was just a parallel plot line that sometimes took half or more of an episode - all to setup this tragic figure who (outside of a Rambo moment at the end and a forced arrangement with Ray) never really figured into anything that important.

I would rather have all the Frank-Jordan, Frank-Blake, Frank-Osip and Frank-Ray time spent on the key plot items mentioned above that got glossed over. I mean, five of the key characters of the season's main plot (Tony Chessani, Chief Holloway, Lt. Burris and the twins) were virtually unknown going into the final 3 episodes. But, hey, we all knew who Stan was
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Old 08-11-2015, 01:29 PM   #314
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But Frank is essential for knowing who Ray is, and for the final plot line. And was arguably the most compelling character in the entire show.
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Old 08-11-2015, 02:41 PM   #315
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And was arguably the most compelling character in the entire show.

Who was...Frank? Or Ray?
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Old 08-11-2015, 02:50 PM   #316
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Frank. I think the whole gangster trying to go straight (and put on an act) and then having to go back to gangster (note how Vaughn became far less stiff and his dialogue became far less cringeworthy as he regressed more and more into his true gangster self) was incredibly compelling stuff.
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Old 08-11-2015, 02:52 PM   #317
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Agree to disagree.
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Old 08-11-2015, 02:53 PM   #318
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I thought the show was pretty well done. Some odd choices for the characters at the end. Why Frank didn't get the hell out of that tunnel when he was getting blocked in seemed a little far fetched but I guess he was screwed anyways. On the other hand I have no idea why Ray couldn't have a done a million other things besides running his car into the woods when he noticed his tail.
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Old 08-11-2015, 03:07 PM   #319
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Or why he didn't jack a car without a transponder on it when he wasn't being watched, when doing that exact thing was the very first thing he suggested to Ani when he spoke to her in the phone.
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Old 08-11-2015, 03:12 PM   #320
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But Frank is essential for knowing who Ray is, and for the final plot line. And was arguably the most compelling character in the entire show.
Would it have been different if Burris or some unknown person had tipped Ray to kill the wrong guy? You don't need Frank specifically for that. Frank was always on a different path than everyone else and we constantly had to hit the brakes on the main plot, listen to him opine about Stan, having kids, his childhood or how he didn't want to be a gangster. Again, I think Vaughn did the best anyone could do with this role, but it took away from the real story. Because we spent all this time with Frank, Jordan, Stan, Blake and company, we never had time to learn about the real mystery and the last 2 episodes ended up forcing 4-5 episodes of content down our throat to tie up all the loose ends.
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Old 08-11-2015, 03:12 PM   #321
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Or why he didn't jack a car without a transponder on it when he wasn't being watched, when doing that exact thing was the very first thing he suggested to Ani when he spoke to her in the phone.

He had a feeling they were watching him at that point. So they would have noticed which car he jacked. He said that to Ani to make her believe he was going to be ok - remember he immediately told the other woman he wasn't going to make it.
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Old 08-11-2015, 03:16 PM   #322
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Would it have been different if Burris or some unknown person had tipped Ray to kill the wrong guy?

Well yes. Ray isn't entwined in the mob if Burris was the guy who helped facilitate the murder. If Ray isn't entwined in the mob, he isn't considered a "dirty cop", which is why he was put on the Caspere case to begin with and why the other agencies are telling Ani and Paul to not trust the guy.

And besides, I think Vaughn WAS a big part of the real story. The real story isn't the murder of Caspere, its about the corruption and decadence of the power structure and how its rotten to the core (it's a noir after all). The interaction between the gangster element and the city is part and parcel of that.
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Old 08-11-2015, 03:25 PM   #323
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He had a feeling they were watching him at that point. So they would have noticed which car he jacked. He said that to Ani to make her believe he was going to be ok - remember he immediately told the other woman he wasn't going to make it.

Still, you have a car with no transponder. You have a shot to get away vs basically none.

I also thought he was at least going to take out Burris at the end. That wasn't the best decision he ever made.
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Old 08-11-2015, 03:44 PM   #324
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Well yes. Ray isn't entwined in the mob if Burris was the guy who helped facilitate the murder. If Ray isn't entwined in the mob, he isn't considered a "dirty cop", which is why he was put on the Caspere case to begin with and why the other agencies are telling Ani and Paul to not trust the guy.
All the cops in Vinci were dirty - Burris, Holloway, Dixon. Let's say that, instead of Frank, it's Burris that passes a tip to Ray about a guy (we later find is involved with the robbery with him and Dixon) and says it is Ray's wife's rapist. Ray kills the guy and is stuck under the thumb of Dixon and Burris at Vinci. This Casper case comes up and they stick him on as their patsy and he starts working with Bezzerides. Things start to unravel, he finds out the guy he killed was actually involved in this diamond robbery and Burris was playing him for a fool. That gives him the motive to finally break out of this "protect Burris because I owe him" mold and he starts doing real detective work. I don't see how that isn't just as good of a story and we get all the Frank time to go into this corruption/1992 robbery/twins/Mayor's son/Osip stuff that got completely glossed over in favor of Frank, Jordan, Blake and Stan.

Quote:
And besides, I think Vaughn WAS a big part of the real story. The real story isn't the murder of Caspere, its about the corruption and decadence of the power structure and how its rotten to the core (it's a noir after all). The interaction between the gangster element and the city is part and parcel of that.
But that was really a red herring. The gangster element wasn't key to the catalyst land deal or the corruption, it was just a small piece (Russians setting up parties to gather blackmail on city officials) to ensure the deal between Catalyst/McCandless, Chessani, Geldoff and company went through. You could have easily had Osip work with the younger Chessani on the blackmail end and not missed a beat. Frank actually wasn't involved at all in that process.
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Old 08-11-2015, 03:46 PM   #325
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I had issues with the show.

There was far too much tell and not enough show. The last few episodes had characters just spewing forth chunks of plot to try to tie things together. The plot was not just convoluted and complex, but it was boring. It was some combination of a revenge scenario by two characters who had all of three scenes and buying up land. Okay...

None of the villains were all that memorable. There was the evil mayor. He was evil, but was killed off screen. There was the evil black cop and the evil white cop. The mayor's son. Osip (who was far better in that Comcast "Opulence... I has it" commercial). The Mexicans.

Sure, the main villain from the first season was in one scene before the finale, but at least they built him up with the whole spagehtti monster thing throughout the show and then made him super weird and creepy in the finale. He was definitely memorable.

I also didn't care about the characters that much. I felt nothing when Frank died. Nothing when Ray died. Nothing when Paul got shot. When Ray's wife (the actress was totally wasted in the role, she's amazing on "Rectify") read that paternity test thing, I was like, "Oh, yeah. Right. The paternity of their son was an issue. Right. I forgot all about that. Huh." So, no emotional impact there either.

Ray seemed to have three goals when trying to elude the evil cop guy and his band of mercenaries (where did those mercs come from?): 1) Lead them away from Ani; 2) Send audio message to his sone; and 3) evade capture. There seems to be a lot of places other than the middle of nowhere in the woods that he could have better accomplished some, or all, of those goals. It was weird.

Also, why was that big land deal all dependent upon some secret money trade off in the middle of the woods? I didn't get that either.

I'll miss Stan, though. That guy was pure gold.
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Old 08-11-2015, 03:50 PM   #326
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Having a corrupt police force is not the same as showing the entire system is dirty and corrupt. That's the point - everything is rotten, from the city government to the city police force and back again. And Frank was the gangster element - the payoffs from the casinos were going to the city in order for the privilege to continue working in the city (just as gangs were supposed to pay Frank to work in his casino). Detective noirs usually tend to show that the actually detective work is useless - the bigger forces at play are going to make sure the status quo remains. Frank was a big part of showing that bigger force at play - his struggle was far more interesting than Ray's attempts to figure out stuff while going into all his paternity questions.

And in addition, I found Frank to be far more interesting than Ray.
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Old 08-11-2015, 03:58 PM   #327
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Oh, in addition, the detective story itself is a red herring. It doesn't really matter one bit who killed Caspere.
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Old 08-11-2015, 04:11 PM   #328
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Having a corrupt police force is not the same as showing the entire system is dirty and corrupt. That's the point - everything is rotten, from the city government to the city police force and back again. And Frank was the gangster element - the payoffs from the casinos were going to the city in order for the privilege to continue working in the city (just as gangs were supposed to pay Frank to work in his casino). Detective noirs usually tend to show that the actually detective work is useless - the bigger forces at play are going to make sure the status quo remains. Frank was a big part of showing that bigger force at play - his struggle was far more interesting than Ray's attempts to figure out stuff while going into all his paternity questions.

And in addition, I found Frank to be far more interesting than Ray.

I understand the who corrupt institution thing. That was what "The Wire" was all about. How institutions push forward, undaunted by the individuals. People try as they might to fight it, but eventually they get ground up and replaced and the institutions keep on rolling along.

True Detective might have aimed for that with that scene at the end with the young mayor and Burris standing there, but the execution and journey were both pretty poor.
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Old 08-11-2015, 06:32 PM   #329
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I liked the last couple episodes. Minor bitch would be run time of the last one. Either go to 10 episodes or pace it out better.

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Old 08-11-2015, 11:00 PM   #330
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I had issues with the show.

There was far too much tell and not enough show. The last few episodes had characters just spewing forth chunks of plot to try to tie things together. The plot was not just convoluted and complex, but it was boring. It was some combination of a revenge scenario by two characters who had all of three scenes and buying up land. Okay...

None of the villains were all that memorable. There was the evil mayor. He was evil, but was killed off screen. There was the evil black cop and the evil white cop. The mayor's son. Osip (who was far better in that Comcast "Opulence... I has it" commercial). The Mexicans.

Sure, the main villain from the first season was in one scene before the finale, but at least they built him up with the whole spagehtti monster thing throughout the show and then made him super weird and creepy in the finale. He was definitely memorable.

I also didn't care about the characters that much. I felt nothing when Frank died. Nothing when Ray died. Nothing when Paul got shot. When Ray's wife (the actress was totally wasted in the role, she's amazing on "Rectify") read that paternity test thing, I was like, "Oh, yeah. Right. The paternity of their son was an issue. Right. I forgot all about that. Huh." So, no emotional impact there either.

Ray seemed to have three goals when trying to elude the evil cop guy and his band of mercenaries (where did those mercs come from?): 1) Lead them away from Ani; 2) Send audio message to his sone; and 3) evade capture. There seems to be a lot of places other than the middle of nowhere in the woods that he could have better accomplished some, or all, of those goals. It was weird.

Also, why was that big land deal all dependent upon some secret money trade off in the middle of the woods? I didn't get that either.

I'll miss Stan, though. That guy was pure gold.


I agree with everything. I'll just add that there was simply no payoff at all. I don't need a happy ending. I don't need everything to be ok.

But when you give me 8 or 9 major bad guys in a show, I expect to see more than 2 of them to pay the piper. The Ray drive into the woods was one of the dumbest things I have ever seen in a tv show. As you point out, there were plenty of other places that would have given him a chance to get away.

Everyone knows the woods makes it less likely you'll have phone reception. And then he gets out of the car and tries to grab the money? Why, pray tell, did you do that Ray? Please explain.

As was said above, I knew Frank and Ray were dead from the second or third episode. I had not seen season 1 and I only stuck around because I heard how great season 1 was.

Season 1 went to on demand and I watched it as this trainwreck was taking place. Holy hell, having the same name on these two shows is ridiculous. Season 1 was a masterpiece. Season 2 was the work of a so so 8 year old artist. No comparison.

If season 3 comes, I'll watch 2 episodes and if it looks like season 2, I will tap out and save my time.
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Old 08-12-2015, 01:56 PM   #331
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[quote=TroyF;3046863]
But when you give me 8 or 9 major bad guys in a show, I expect to see more than 2 of them to pay the piper.
QUOTE]

Why? Why does it have to end in Rainbows and Unicorns? That is not real life. Season 1 actually solved squat when you think about it. This great season (and yes, I agree overall it was great) didn't really 'solve' anything. They caught one major creeper/monster who they chased for most the season and let our imaginations run wild about him. They then only displayed him for an hour. The real BIG BADS/monsters all got away with no idea who they were. There was obviously more than a couple bad guys involved in that mess, right? Right? They all got away.

I don't know. Just my opinion on it I guess. I am not a fan of always having to have a happy ending in every single movie/show. It just...isn't real.
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Old 08-12-2015, 02:00 PM   #332
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I see a lot of gray in between "bad guys getting it" and "happy ending".

The problem wasn't that only two died. The problem was the clusterfuck of a story that led to there being "8 or 9 major bad guys in a show".
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Old 08-12-2015, 02:04 PM   #333
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Were there really 8 or 9 "major" bad guys in the show? Burris, Osip, Chief of Police in Vinci (who was killed in the airport) and who? While the Mexicans may have been the death of Frank, they weren't major bad guys, just people who he had to deal with in the result of having his money stolen by Caspere. The guy who was seemingly in charge of the crooked land deals? He wasn't really doing all that much aside from coordinating. The mayor? Please. The Mayor's son? I know he wanted his father bumped off, but really didn't have much else to do with the actual plot.
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Old 08-12-2015, 02:13 PM   #334
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The Mayor's son had everything to do with the actual plot (as intended) and the fact that you didn't even realize that indicates how poorly they communicated that throughout the story.
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Old 08-12-2015, 02:13 PM   #335
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The more I look back, the more frustrating this season was. I can get past some sloppy mechanics (ie, Ray going to the woods and the odd woods location for the big money deal) if the story is good. This story just wasn't that good. A guy gets murdered by twins upset about their parents death, while the guy who actually pulled the trigger (Burris) skated away unblemished and thrived. There's no character development over the killers (twins), guy pulling all the strings (younger Chessani), attorney general hushing everything up (Geldof), Catalyst head (already forgot his name - he was doing the deals at the drug party with Osip) or two cops at the heart of all the conspiracy/1992 robbery (Burris and Holloway). Instead, we get deep dives on a divorce, middle-aged people struggling to have a child, a highway cop with no involvement outside of a lovers tryst with a footsoldier connected to the bad guys and a 2-3 episode obituary about Stan - a random lower level gangster not involved in the Casper murder, cop conspiracy or land deal.
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Old 08-12-2015, 02:25 PM   #336
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The Mayor's son had everything to do with the actual plot (as intended) and the fact that you didn't even realize that indicates how poorly they communicated that throughout the story.

Yeah, but he's completely removed from everything at the lowest level, while his co-conspirators are doing the heavy lifting there. Hence, Tony's not a major bad guy in the immediate story.

(I mean look at the Slate link, Tony is referenced a few times in the sense that he's in charge of the parties and is trying to bump off his old man - but only tangentially related to the stuff dealing with the Caspere murder)
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Old 08-12-2015, 02:29 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by ISiddiqui View Post
Were there really 8 or 9 "major" bad guys in the show? Burris, Osip, Chief of Police in Vinci (who was killed in the airport)
Here's the badguy hierarchy:

Spoiler


And it's not so much that 4 of the top 5 profited enormously from the season, it's that we had to keep track of all 7. Making matters more confusing, we really only got a full introduction to Osip. 6 of the top 7 were virtual blips on the season - to where I had no idea on 5 of their names going into the finale.
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Old 08-12-2015, 02:35 PM   #338
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6 of the top 7 were virtual blips on the season - to where I had no idea on 5 of their names going into the finale.

Exactly. They aren't "major" bad guys in the story because they are more representative of the corrupt system rather than actual major antagonists (the protagonists being Ani, Ray, Paul, and Frank). The major antagonists are Burris, Holloway, and Osip. The rest of the hierarchy are involved in the plots (there are two conspiracies, remember), but not as direct pathways for the protagonists to direct through.
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Old 08-12-2015, 02:36 PM   #339
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You could technically have Caspere in there among the bad guys even though he was dead when the show began. He was a bad guy in terms of the story we were attempting to follow.
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Old 08-12-2015, 02:40 PM   #340
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You could technically have Caspere in there among the bad guys even though he was dead when the show began. He was a bad guy in terms of the story we were attempting to follow.

That's fair.

---

As an example of what I'm talking about re: main bad guys (as related to the story) vs. other bad guys who are not directly related, look at the tale of Robin Hood. The main antagonist in Robin Hood is the Sheriff of Nottingham. However, the Sheriff is under the hand of Prince John. Prince John is not a main bad guy in the story, because he's not directly in the path of Robin (in some more modern films he may be, however, but in the historical tale).
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Old 08-12-2015, 02:41 PM   #341
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Yeah, but he's completely removed from everything at the lowest level, while his co-conspirators are doing the heavy lifting there. Hence, Tony's not a major bad guy in the immediate story.

(I mean look at the Slate link, Tony is referenced a few times in the sense that he's in charge of the parties and is trying to bump off his old man - but only tangentially related to the stuff dealing with the Caspere murder)

No Tony, no parties, no blackmailing, and all that's left is a revenge killing that no one gives a shit about because there's no hard drive of compromising pictures/videos floating around somewhere.

We don't really need to keep counting bad guys and the degree to which they are major or minor. If you think all of that constitutes good storytelling, more power to you.
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Old 08-12-2015, 02:44 PM   #342
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No Tony, no parties, no blackmailing, and all that's left is a revenge killing that no one gives a shit about because there's no hard drive of compromising pictures/videos floating around somewhere.

So he's more of a MacGuffin, not a major bad guy.
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Old 08-12-2015, 02:54 PM   #343
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Oh, in addition, the detective story itself is a red herring. It doesn't really matter one bit who killed Caspere.

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So he's more of a MacGuffin, not a major bad guy.

Well, one thing's for certain, this season of True Detective spent a lot of time on red herrings and MacGuffins!
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Old 08-12-2015, 02:59 PM   #344
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Well, it was a noir. You really can't have one of those without tons of red herrings and macguffins.
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Old 08-12-2015, 03:06 PM   #345
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Regarding Arles list, didn't McCandless die at the weird middle of nowhere hand over 12 million cash meeting?
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Old 08-12-2015, 03:34 PM   #346
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Regarding Arles list, didn't McCandless die at the weird middle of nowhere hand over 12 million cash meeting?

Who was McCandless again? Was he the CEO of The Catalyst Group?
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Old 08-12-2015, 03:37 PM   #347
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Yeah, I think so. He really only had 4 scenes - and usually in the background making a deal (his foreground scene was when he told Frank he'd let him back in the game if he got the hard drive)
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Old 08-12-2015, 03:40 PM   #348
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Yeah, I think so. He really only had 4 scenes - and usually in the background making a deal (his foreground scene was when he told Frank he'd let him back in the game if he got the hard drive)

I remember him from the hard drive scene. McCandless and the hard drive, yet more red herrings and/or MacGuffins!
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Old 08-12-2015, 03:41 PM   #349
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I think this is what would have happened had Jack Kerouac written Waiting for Godot.
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Old 08-12-2015, 03:43 PM   #350
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[quote=hollmt;3046961]
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But when you give me 8 or 9 major bad guys in a show, I expect to see more than 2 of them to pay the piper.
QUOTE]

Why? Why does it have to end in Rainbows and Unicorns? That is not real life. Season 1 actually solved squat when you think about it. This great season (and yes, I agree overall it was great) didn't really 'solve' anything. They caught one major creeper/monster who they chased for most the season and let our imaginations run wild about him. They then only displayed him for an hour. The real BIG BADS/monsters all got away with no idea who they were. There was obviously more than a couple bad guys involved in that mess, right? Right? They all got away.

I don't know. Just my opinion on it I guess. I am not a fan of always having to have a happy ending in every single movie/show. It just...isn't real.


I guess you didn't bother reading the first line of my post. Ya know, the one that said:

"I'll just add that there was simply no payoff at all. I don't need a happy ending. I don't need everything to be ok."

Read the first line there. There was simply no payoff to any of it. The show ends and I'm not happy. I'm not all that sad. I'm not angry. I'm not surprised at the two who died (expected those two to die and the final episode was leading to it from the start) I expect there to be some sort of payoff after sitting through 8 hours of a storyline. i don't care if it's anger the bad guys won, happiness the good guys did or the 5 billion levels of emotion I could feel in between.

Instead, I shrug my shoulders and my first thought is "I'm sure glad that is over"

The show was poor. Sorry, it just was.
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