CM4 vs Realism?

Bee · 05-02-2003, 09:25 AM

I don't follow soccer. What little I know about the subject I've gained from playing CM or listening to my wife's family during visits to the in-laws in Paris. While I enjoy CM a great deal, I seem to experience relatively "unrealistic" success IMO. In last year's version, I took the Barnet Bees (a Conference team) to the Premier League in 5 years. In year 7, I won the Premier League.

I've been playing CM4 since I got it and again as the Barnet Bees, my first season I won the Conference. The second season, I won the 3rd Division. I am now in my third season and while not in 1st in the 2nd Division, I am in the upper half and still in the hunt for promotion again (despite several key long term injuries). If it doesn't happen this year, it will undoubtedly happen next year.

My question is "Does this really happen?". I really don't play with house rules in CM4 other than not to do anything "unusual" or exploit any flaws that I learn about.

Tekneek · 05-02-2003, 09:43 AM

What kind of tactics do you use? How do you handle your finances? What kind of transfers do you make?

Bee · 05-02-2003, 09:54 AM

I use a 4-1-3-2 tactic. It's the one that Marc V had a guide for and explained what skills to look for at each position. I use that because otherwise I'd have no idea what everyone was supposed to do.

I don't deal with finances much. In CM4, I stay below the wage limit and generally try to keep some funds available for transfers if I need to bring someone in or see a player I like.

My transfers have been pretty limited. I'd say at least half the team is still original. I've mostly brought in free transfers. I think I've paid for maybe 3 players. I've sold 4 or 5 (and 1 or 2 were guys I brought in and were unhappy so I sold them off). I think the most I've paid was around 30,000 pounds. If I remember correctly, my keeper, 2 defenders, my DMC, 2 midfielders and one of my forward were all on the team when I took over as far as my "A" team goes.

andy m · 05-02-2003, 10:00 AM

no, that doesn't happen. ever ever ever (except once). no team promoted from the conference since the mid 80's has ever gotten higher than division 2. a slight quirk here - i do believe barnet would have been the first team to make it to division 1, but their promotion to division 2 in 1992/93 also saw the team almost self-destruct under bad ownership (try and find the book "the club that wouldn't die" by Tony Thornton). the team that went up was fantastic and skilled enough to make it to the next level, unfortunately, nearly every single player had to leave on a free transfer as the club couldn't afford to pay them.

the only team to ever make it from the conference to the premierleague was wimbledon, and they did it over a 20-30 year period.

condors · 05-02-2003, 10:06 AM

Has it happened before yes it is very rare but cm i believe strives to make sure there is a fun factor, so far winning the epl with a small club has proved harder for me in this version then in other versions.

moriarty · 05-02-2003, 10:20 AM

I would think that some of the EP3 tweaks will make it harder to move up like this. It sounds like it's alot easier than it was in CM3 - you'd have to be a very skilled player to win the Premiership in seven years from the conference (not that you aren't Bee).

Some of the things like overpowering strikers, gung-ho effects, limits on what teams could sell their star players for, etc. have impacted the difficulty and the fixes should be make it touger with EP3. That's just a guess, we'll have to see.

Bee · 05-02-2003, 10:29 AM

Actually, I've found CM4 to be a little more difficult than CM3 overall. I've avoided trying to go out and get a star striker and I never use the gung-ho thing. With the combination of the wage limit and the difficulty moving players in the transfer market, I think it's a more difficult game.

I guess I was just curious if it was common for teams to move up that quickly. I really had no idea, but I suspected it wasn't common. It appears that I was correct.

I do hope that EP3 does address difficulty though. I would think after being promoted, it would be common for a team to struggle and that just doesn't seem to be evident in the game which is somewhat disappointing. I guess this gets into discussions that have been thoroughly rehashed here about "fun" vs "challenge" in designing games. Unless there's a significant revision in EP3, looks like we can chalk up another victory for "fun".

ice4277 · 05-02-2003, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bee
Actually, I've found CM4 to be a little more difficult than CM3 overall. I've avoided trying to go out and get a star striker and I never use the gung-ho thing. With the combination of the wage limit and the difficulty moving players in the transfer market, I think it's a more difficult game.

I guess I was just curious if it was common for teams to move up that quickly. I really had no idea, but I suspected it wasn't common. It appears that I was correct.

I do hope that EP3 does address difficulty though. I would think after being promoted, it would be common for a team to struggle and that just doesn't seem to be evident in the game which is somewhat disappointing. I guess this gets into discussions that have been thoroughly rehashed here about "fun" vs "challenge" in designing games. Unless there's a significant revision in EP3, looks like we can chalk up another victory for "fun".

To me, if I was able to do something like that, it wouldn't be fun unless I had the challenge there. I have stopped playing CM4 for the moment because it was just too easy, I could win no matter what I was doing. And if you ever saw me play CM before you would know that's totally out of character for me

I'm hoping this will be tweaked a bit in the enhancement pack due out soon.

Easy Mac · 05-02-2003, 10:51 AM

I've noticed that even with marginal teams, if you play attack at home you win. You play defensive on the road, and you are assured of a tie, maybe a win. I'm 25 games in, and have yet to lose playing like that, and have 7 ties, the rest wins. It just seems too easy right now.

superbama · 05-02-2003, 10:55 AM

I really liked adjusting my formation and style based on the other team's formation. I did not see where you could see the other teams formation in the demo. Do you have to figure it out by watching the dots? or did I miss it?

MIJB#19 · 05-02-2003, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Easy Mac
I've noticed that even with marginal teams, if you play attack at home you win. You play defensive on the road, and you are assured of a tie, maybe a win. I'm 25 games in, and have yet to lose playing like that, and have 7 ties, the rest wins. It just seems too easy right now.

Actually, in real life this is what a lot of teams do.
Play at home to get the fans behind them, dig themselves in on the road to get the occasional 0-0 draw or 1-0 counter attack win.

That's why the number of goals has shrinked to 2.0-2.5 per game in most leagues, with a relative big wins of top teams against weaker teams making the average get above 2.0 per game.

Easy Mac · 05-02-2003, 11:13 AM

i agree, but even with weak teams I'm winning consistently on the road. Maybe it just feels wrong when it isn't, like agreeing with Cam or something.

But i guess if you look at the MLS this year, that is exactly whats happening.

moriarty · 05-02-2003, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by superbama
I really liked adjusting my formation and style based on the other team's formation. I did not see where you could see the other teams formation in the demo. Do you have to figure it out by watching the dots? or did I miss it?

Once you've gone to the match, look at their tactics (before the match starts) and I think you can see their formation. Also (at least in CM3) you could go to their team page and look at thier last match to see what formation they used.

Marc Vaughan · 05-02-2003, 12:19 PM

Its unlikely any team could come to prominence so quickly - but not impossible.

For instance Wycome went from Conference to Division 2 in successive promotions a few years ago (if I remember right), Brighton went from the verge of relegation from Division 3 to Division 1 in successive promotions (and are now fighting for survival in Div 1., crunch match is this sunday - send us good karma

).

Wimbledon who are the most well known of successful 'small' clubs came into the league in Division 4 (remember those days?) in 1977 and were promoted into the top English division (which was Div 1 in those days) in 1986.

That was a rise from a club turning Professional to top division managed in 9 years which was an amazing acomplishment. The actual promotions were achieved in 5 years (every year during their 'rise' had a successive promotion apart from 1984 when they came 12th in the second division).

As an aside one reason its generally 'easier' to do this sort of feat in CM is simply that people replay the same seasons frequently (as they tend to restart if things go wrong or they get fired) - because of this they have knowledge of players that isn't possible irl (eg. No one knew how good Beckham was going to be irl when he was 17, if you've played CM3/4 several times then you've probably got clues about which youngsters might become stars in the future which helps ...).

bbor · 05-02-2003, 12:26 PM

It took me 4 seasons to get from Conf to D3.My team was in financial difficulty in my last season in Conf.After i was promoted to D3 my board expected a reasonable showing in D3.

Now mind you....i could'nt buy players because the finances had been taken over by the financial advisors.After the 36 game of the D3 season i was in 4th spot,i was then fired for having the team under preform(?????)

I imagine it was due to the fact that my team was bankrupt?If not..then i beleive it is a bit of a bug to get fired for being in 4th spot a year after promotion from Conf.

Also.....when i applied to another Conf team after getting fired....i could'nt find one that was less than 19 million in debt(!!!!!)

No sense in taking one of these teams if you are going to get fired for financial trouble.

Karim · 05-02-2003, 02:11 PM

Yeah, unfortunately it is quirks like these that has made me stop playing. I didn't want to get too far into a season and have to restart with EP3 (although it is saved-game compatible). Plus, I want to try out the ARSE command from the start of the season.

moriarty · 05-02-2003, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Karim
Yeah, unfortunately it is quirks like these that has made me stop playing. I didn't want to get too far into a season and have to restart with EP3 (although it is saved-game compatible). Plus, I want to try out the ARSE command from the start of the season.

Do I have to create a config file to put the Arse command in? Anyone know the instructions??

MIJB#19 · 05-04-2003, 09:21 AM

Didn't Fulham promote 3 times between 1996/1997 and 2000/2001, from Third Division to Premier League (and in 2002/2003 playing in the UEFA Cup)?
I know, it's not from Conference to the top, but still it's quite an achievement, despite the millions of pounds invested in the team over the years.

andy m · 05-04-2003, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Marc Vaughan
Wimbledon who are the most well known of successful 'small' clubs came into the league in Division 4 (remember those days?) in 1977 and were promoted into the top English division (which was Div 1 in those days) in 1986.

wow. i didn't realise it was so quick, i figured they joined the league in the 60's. that's incredible.

Karim · 05-04-2003, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by moriarty
Do I have to create a config file to put the Arse command in? Anyone know the instructions??

I put the following commands as written in Notepad and saved the file as "init.cfg" (with the quotes). I'm using Windows 98 so I'm not sure if it will work in other versions.

"ARSE"
"BIG_BALL"
"GROUND"
"INCREMENTAL_SAVE"

Save the file to C:/Program Files/Eidos Interactive/Cm4/data

You need to restart your season for it to work.

Marc Vaughan · 05-04-2003, 04:36 PM

Be very careful with 'INCREMENTAL_SAVE' as that can use up a heck of a lot of disk-space if you aren't careful ...

Sloan · 05-04-2003, 04:45 PM

Marc,

I know you guys are working full time on squashing bugs, but do you have any updates on how multi CPU support is coming along?

Marc Vaughan · 05-05-2003, 02:39 PM

Its nearly completed - but unfortunately we're busy getting the EP's finished at the moment so its unlikely to be released in the near future.

It is one of my 'pet projects' though so expect it to pop up again at some point ...

Sloan · 05-05-2003, 02:47 PM

Excellent! I need to have my server do something more than serve MP3s out to the rest of the house.

Also, do you still need people to send you save games of the score changing bug? I see you asked for them at SI games, but I haven't seen too many people offer them to you. Although I haven't saved my current game in the correct spots, I seem to be on a roll with the bug. I think it has happened to me 4 or 5 times in my current game. I could start saving before each game if you need more examples.

05-02-2003, 10:00 AM	#4
andy m High School Varsity Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: norwich, UK	no, that doesn't happen. ever ever ever (except once). no team promoted from the conference since the mid 80's has ever gotten higher than division 2. a slight quirk here - i do believe barnet would have been the first team to make it to division 1, but their promotion to division 2 in 1992/93 also saw the team almost self-destruct under bad ownership (try and find the book "the club that wouldn't die" by Tony Thornton). the team that went up was fantastic and skilled enough to make it to the next level, unfortunately, nearly every single player had to leave on a free transfer as the club couldn't afford to pay them. the only team to ever make it from the conference to the premierleague was wimbledon, and they did it over a 20-30 year period. __________________ mostly harmless FOFL 2009 champs - Norwich Quagmire

05-02-2003, 12:26 PM	#15
bbor Pro Starter Join Date: May 2001 Location: toronto	It took me 4 seasons to get from Conf to D3.My team was in financial difficulty in my last season in Conf.After i was promoted to D3 my board expected a reasonable showing in D3. Now mind you....i could'nt buy players because the finances had been taken over by the financial advisors.After the 36 game of the D3 season i was in 4th spot,i was then fired for having the team under preform(?????) I imagine it was due to the fact that my team was bankrupt?If not..then i beleive it is a bit of a bug to get fired for being in 4th spot a year after promotion from Conf. Also.....when i applied to another Conf team after getting fired....i could'nt find one that was less than 19 million in debt(!!!!!) No sense in taking one of these teams if you are going to get fired for financial trouble. __________________ Pumpy Tudors Now that I've cracked and made that admission, I wonder if I'm only a couple of steps away from wanting to tongue-kiss Jaromir Jagr and give Bobby Clarke a blowjob.

05-05-2003, 02:47 PM	#24
Sloan High School JV Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Michigan	Excellent! I need to have my server do something more than serve MP3s out to the rest of the house. Also, do you still need people to send you save games of the score changing bug? I see you asked for them at SI games, but I haven't seen too many people offer them to you. Although I haven't saved my current game in the correct spots, I seem to be on a roll with the bug. I think it has happened to me 4 or 5 times in my current game. I could start saving before each game if you need more examples. Last edited by Sloan : 05-05-2003 at 02:48 PM.

05-02-2003, 09:43 AM	#2
Tekneek Pro Rookie Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: USA	What kind of tactics do you use? How do you handle your finances? What kind of transfers do you make?

05-02-2003, 09:54 AM	#3
Bee Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Fairfax, VA	I use a 4-1-3-2 tactic. It's the one that Marc V had a guide for and explained what skills to look for at each position. I use that because otherwise I'd have no idea what everyone was supposed to do. I don't deal with finances much. In CM4, I stay below the wage limit and generally try to keep some funds available for transfers if I need to bring someone in or see a player I like. My transfers have been pretty limited. I'd say at least half the team is still original. I've mostly brought in free transfers. I think I've paid for maybe 3 players. I've sold 4 or 5 (and 1 or 2 were guys I brought in and were unhappy so I sold them off). I think the most I've paid was around 30,000 pounds. If I remember correctly, my keeper, 2 defenders, my DMC, 2 midfielders and one of my forward were all on the team when I took over as far as my "A" team goes.

05-02-2003, 10:06 AM	#5
condors College Starter Join Date: Oct 2000	Has it happened before yes it is very rare but cm i believe strives to make sure there is a fun factor, so far winning the epl with a small club has proved harder for me in this version then in other versions.

05-02-2003, 10:20 AM	#6
moriarty College Starter Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: A negative place	I would think that some of the EP3 tweaks will make it harder to move up like this. It sounds like it's alot easier than it was in CM3 - you'd have to be a very skilled player to win the Premiership in seven years from the conference (not that you aren't Bee). Some of the things like overpowering strikers, gung-ho effects, limits on what teams could sell their star players for, etc. have impacted the difficulty and the fixes should be make it touger with EP3. That's just a guess, we'll have to see.

05-02-2003, 10:29 AM	#7
Bee Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Fairfax, VA	Actually, I've found CM4 to be a little more difficult than CM3 overall. I've avoided trying to go out and get a star striker and I never use the gung-ho thing. With the combination of the wage limit and the difficulty moving players in the transfer market, I think it's a more difficult game. I guess I was just curious if it was common for teams to move up that quickly. I really had no idea, but I suspected it wasn't common. It appears that I was correct. I do hope that EP3 does address difficulty though. I would think after being promoted, it would be common for a team to struggle and that just doesn't seem to be evident in the game which is somewhat disappointing. I guess this gets into discussions that have been thoroughly rehashed here about "fun" vs "challenge" in designing games. Unless there's a significant revision in EP3, looks like we can chalk up another victory for "fun".

05-02-2003, 10:51 AM	#9
Easy Mac Registered User Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Here	I've noticed that even with marginal teams, if you play attack at home you win. You play defensive on the road, and you are assured of a tie, maybe a win. I'm 25 games in, and have yet to lose playing like that, and have 7 ties, the rest wins. It just seems too easy right now.

05-02-2003, 10:55 AM	#10
superbama H.S. Freshman Team Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Seattle ,Wa	I really liked adjusting my formation and style based on the other team's formation. I did not see where you could see the other teams formation in the demo. Do you have to figure it out by watching the dots? or did I miss it?

05-02-2003, 11:13 AM	#12
Easy Mac Registered User Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Here	i agree, but even with weak teams I'm winning consistently on the road. Maybe it just feels wrong when it isn't, like agreeing with Cam or something. But i guess if you look at the MLS this year, that is exactly whats happening.

05-02-2003, 12:19 PM	#14
Marc Vaughan SI Games Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Melbourne, FL	Its unlikely any team could come to prominence so quickly - but not impossible. For instance Wycome went from Conference to Division 2 in successive promotions a few years ago (if I remember right), Brighton went from the verge of relegation from Division 3 to Division 1 in successive promotions (and are now fighting for survival in Div 1., crunch match is this sunday - send us good karma ). Wimbledon who are the most well known of successful 'small' clubs came into the league in Division 4 (remember those days?) in 1977 and were promoted into the top English division (which was Div 1 in those days) in 1986. That was a rise from a club turning Professional to top division managed in 9 years which was an amazing acomplishment. The actual promotions were achieved in 5 years (every year during their 'rise' had a successive promotion apart from 1984 when they came 12th in the second division). As an aside one reason its generally 'easier' to do this sort of feat in CM is simply that people replay the same seasons frequently (as they tend to restart if things go wrong or they get fired) - because of this they have knowledge of players that isn't possible irl (eg. No one knew how good Beckham was going to be irl when he was 17, if you've played CM3/4 several times then you've probably got clues about which youngsters might become stars in the future which helps ...).

05-02-2003, 02:11 PM	#16
Karim College Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Calgary	Yeah, unfortunately it is quirks like these that has made me stop playing. I didn't want to get too far into a season and have to restart with EP3 (although it is saved-game compatible). Plus, I want to try out the ARSE command from the start of the season.

05-04-2003, 09:21 AM	#18
MIJB#19 Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Maassluis, Zuid-Holland, Netherlands	Didn't Fulham promote 3 times between 1996/1997 and 2000/2001, from Third Division to Premier League (and in 2002/2003 playing in the UEFA Cup)? I know, it's not from Conference to the top, but still it's quite an achievement, despite the millions of pounds invested in the team over the years.

05-04-2003, 04:36 PM	#21
Marc Vaughan SI Games Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Melbourne, FL	Be very careful with 'INCREMENTAL_SAVE' as that can use up a heck of a lot of disk-space if you aren't careful ...

05-04-2003, 04:45 PM	#22
Sloan High School JV Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Michigan	Marc, I know you guys are working full time on squashing bugs, but do you have any updates on how multi CPU support is coming along?

05-05-2003, 02:39 PM	#23
Marc Vaughan SI Games Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Melbourne, FL	Its nearly completed - but unfortunately we're busy getting the EP's finished at the moment so its unlikely to be released in the near future. It is one of my 'pet projects' though so expect it to pop up again at some point ...

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