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Old 04-01-2009, 05:30 PM   #1
Yoda
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How to play Defense

I wrote these up to try and help some of the people who have been complaining recently about defense. I don't claim to be a guru, and I don't claim to know it all. I've done some testing (granted, more on offense than on defnese) but not as much as some of the people here. What little feedback I've gotten has been generally positive (there's been one negative comment, lol). But, this is what I've come up with. Hopefully some will find it helpful.

Hopefully other people will open up about their defensive stuff and comment here.

Feedback is appreciated.
*Note: Write ups posted below for convience.
How To Play Defense 101:
http://primetime-football-league.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6296&start=0

How To Play Defense 102:
http://textsports.net/forums/showthread.php?t=559
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Last edited by Yoda : 04-01-2009 at 06:14 PM.
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Old 04-01-2009, 05:36 PM   #2
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Part 1 requires a login to view.
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Old 04-01-2009, 06:07 PM   #3
Yoda
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gstelmack View Post
Part 1 requires a login to view.

Ok, I'll repost it here
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Old 04-01-2009, 06:07 PM   #4
Yoda
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Am I a guru at this game. No. I think am a pretty good player that has been able to put a few things together that work. I still have alot of learn (In someways I feel I know more about defense than offense).

One of the better things you can do is read through the help file ingame and the 2007 player guide found here:
http://www.solecismic.com/support/FOF20 ... rGuide.pdf

Required Reading:
I find that one of the more misunderstood applications of defense is what 'agressive' means. From the player guide:
An "aggressive" expectation means that your linebackers and safeties
are either moving forward to stop the run or moving into pass coverage
as the ball is being snapped. There are both greater risks and rewards
for guessing right or wrong.

• Run - Aggressive - The defense is expecting the run, and the
linebackers and secondary are going to be moving toward the line
at the snap.
• Run - Normal - The defense is expecting the run, but won’t take
any serious risks in preparation.
• Pass - Normal - The defense is expecting the pass, but won’t take
any serious risks in preparation.
• Pass - Aggressive - The defense is expecting the pass, and the
linebackers and secondary are going to be moving into pass
coverage at the snap.

And now these:
The following pass coverages are available (when blitzing multiple
players, some choices for double teams are not available):
• 1-Deep, Loose Man - This is a basic man-to-man coverage with
only the free safety in a deep zone. This is generally called when a
run is expected, as it is very vulnerable to any kind of passing
attack, particularly to short passes.
• 1-Deep, Bump and Run - This is the traditional "46" defense, and
like the 1-Deep, Loose Man, gets eight men in the box, possibly
nine when playing the run aggressively. It is a man-to-man
coverage with only the free safety in a deep zone. Pass defenders
play much closer to the receivers, trying to keep them from
breaking free. This is also vulnerable to a passing attack,
particularly to deep passes.
• 2-Deep, Loose Man - This is one of the most basic coverages.
Both safeties drop into deep zones, and the other defenders play a
man-to-man defense. It has no major strengths or weaknesses.
• 2-Deep, Bump and Run - This is the "Cover-2" defense that so
many teams use today. Both safeties drop into deep zones, and
the other pass defenders play much closer to the receivers, often
bumping them within the legal five-yard limit. This defense has no
major weaknesses, and is a little stronger against a short passing
attack.
• Strong-Side Man Cover - This is a combination zone/man-to-man
defense with the safeties in two deep zones. On the strong side of
the field, defenders are in a man-to-man coverage scheme. On the
weak side, the cornerback plays in a short zone along with
linebackers, if necessary. This coverage gives you a little variety
and is slightly worse against teams with a good receiving tight end.
• Weak-Side Man Cover - This is a combination zone/man-to-man
defense with the safeties in two deep zones. On the weak side of
the field, defenders are in a man-to-man coverage scheme. On the
strong side, the cornerback plays in a short zone along with
linebackers, if necessary. This coverage gives you a little variety
and is slightly better against teams with a good receiving tight end.
• 3-Deep Zone - This coverage places both safeties and a
cornerback (often the nickel) in deep zones. It gives you a more
effective pass defense, but leaves you vulnerable to the run.
• 4-Deep Zone - This coverage places both safeties and two extra
defensive backs in deep zones. This is a prevent defense and
should never be used when expecting a run. Even short passes
are more likely completed against this defense, but it is very
effective against deep passes.

You may double-cover either the split end or the flanker in most cases.
Double-coverage means that a second defender (usually the free safety
or a nickel back) is assigned a responsibility to join the cornerback as
soon as the play begins. This doesn’t mean that double coverage is
impossible without this selection, as the defensive backs manning the
deep zones will join in when a receiver enters their zone.
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Last edited by Yoda : 04-01-2009 at 06:08 PM.
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Old 04-01-2009, 06:10 PM   #5
Yoda
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Defense: The Basics
Hopefully you have read that and picked up on some of the key terms in there.
In general, for me, agressive defense is bad. Well, I won't say bad, but on 1st and 10, you don't find me in any kind of agressive defense. And I think that's one of the issues of defense in MP today.
In learning how to play defense, one of the first things I did was to do this:

From there, I ran about 10 single player seasons. Then I went in and adjusted the %.
On what downs did I want my LB's and S's creaping up to stop the run?
On what downs did I want them dropping back early into coverage?
So, I think that toning down the agressive nature of defense and knowing when to implement it (3rd and 10) is key to defensive success.
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Old 04-01-2009, 06:10 PM   #6
Yoda
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Coverages: When
The next part of defensive success comes from knowing what coverages to call.
In the GEFL I have a STUD CB, Jarvis Williams. Here he is:

Now, he sucks at zone coverage... but is a stud every where else. So, how do I protect and exploit him?
One of the more under-used defenses:
Weak-Side Man Cover - This is a combination zone/man-to-man
defense with the safeties in two deep zones. On the weak side of
the field, defenders are in a man-to-man coverage scheme. On the
strong side, the cornerback plays in a short zone along with
linebackers, if necessary. This coverage gives you a little variety
and is slightly better against teams with a good receiving tight end.
In a email to support from the game, I learned that:
To answer your question, in the strong-side man and weak-side man pass coverages, only the corner on that side is in true man coverage.
Tailor your defenses to match your players.
If you are only in a Run Agressive defense in rare specific situations, then going 50% / 50% in each of the 1-deep coverages isn't going to kill you. Same goes for Pass Agressive defense. If you are only in Pass Agressive for 5-6 plays a game, it's not going to kill your team to be 50% 3deep / 50% 4deep.
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Old 04-01-2009, 06:10 PM   #7
Yoda
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Hopefully some of you will ready this, and learn something, or get on the track to learning how to play defense to match your teams talent.
One last tidbit.
Players without big red bars need to be a little more agressive in some situations to be successful. Players with big red bars will make plays anyway.
If you know a player is almost always going to be in zone coverage, why care about his m2m or bnr skills?
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Old 04-01-2009, 06:12 PM   #8
Yoda
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As a reminder, you will find the first part here:
http://primetime-football-league.com...t=6296&start=0

In a effort to spread the love around, I have decided to post the 2nd of my defensive writings here, and then link it to other sites. Also, at some point, I'll be putting them together. But anyway....

Defense: Theory
First of all, I want to discuss theory.

The first item mentioned in Defense 101 (refered to hereafter as D101) was what agressive play is described as in FoF. To refresh basically what agressive play refers to is if the linebacks and safties move up to the line or drop back during a play.

Now, if it's 3rd and 5, why would you want to be in an agressive pass defense?

You wouldn't. That's like giving up a free 1st down.

This is why I believe that anything aggressive on 1st and 10 is a BAD THING. Sure, some people like to take chances. And if you have the right players with high Play Diag and Run Defense, then I can see making the case for having some Aggressive Pass defense on 1st and 10, but even then.... it's not something I would do.

Also, why would you be in Agressive Pass Defense on 3rd and 5?

You shouldn't.

Agressive Pass means that your LB's and S's are dropping BACK into pass coverage. If LB's are normally 5-8 yards off the line of scrimmage, and it's 3rd and 5...and they are dropping further back. Sure, you'll prevent them from getting more YAC, but you are essentially giving up the 1st.

See, agressive isn't so much of a STYLE of playing rather is positioning of players before/during the snap.

Next part coming as soon as I type it up....
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Old 04-01-2009, 06:13 PM   #9
Yoda
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More on Defensive Play Selection

In D101, I mentioned using SP to set up your DPS 50/50 for all run and pass to test with.

Another thing to do, is hit the recommend, and then change it so that you add the run side together and the pass side together. Example:

After hitting recommend, on 1st and 10, you get:
21 / 32 / 26 / 21 - change that too
0 / 53 / 47 / 0

Then decide on what downs and yardlines you want to a aggressive on. Example, on 1st down and 1 you want to be agressive 30% of the time, so take 30 from what you have in the run column and place it there. So, if you had
0 / 70 / 30 / 0 - you'd now have - 30 / 40 / 30 / 0

Another note. And something I see people missing when they ask me for help and I ask them to send me what they have (because, in general, I like to tweek what people are already doing, instead of just giving them a defense, the idea is to get them to learn how to do it as well) is this:

In what occasions are you going to be shorter than 10 yards to go on 1st down? There are 2. One is when there is a 5 yard penalty, and it's 1st and 5. The second is when it's 1st and goal to go. So, do you want to be playing the same defense as you would on 1st and 10 when it's 1st and 3?

Also, think about what you do on offense. Or look at Ben's offensive playbook. Look at how the run / pass is divided up in there. Those are good examples on how to handle the play calling on the defensive side of the ball.

More....
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Old 04-01-2009, 06:13 PM   #10
Yoda
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Double Coverage: What, When, Why, How?

Things to remember- the TOP WR isn't the highest rated WR. The TOP WR is considered the WR with the highest Route Running skill. This is why I tend to use Orient CB by side of the Formation. Unless my opponents top WR (or the one I want to shutdown) has the highest RR.

Also, from various postings there is some disagrement on how DC works. This is my feelings. If you set the DC top WR to 50% and the DC 2nd WR to 50%, it means this:
You DC the top WR on 50% of the plays.
You DC the 2nd WR on 50% of the plays that you are not DC'ing the top WR.
Meaning, if you run 100 plays, the top WR would be DC'ed 50 times, and the 2nd WR would be DC'ed 25 times.

There are 2 kinds of double coverage.

The most common people are familiar with is when you set it in the Pass Coverage screens.

The second one is the one that will happen when you have players in zone coverage. If the receiver is in the 'ZONE' of a defender, then he will be considered double covered, if the player covering him to begin with was in m2m coverage.

Also, while you might not believe it works (and I used to be one of those people)- it has been shown that double coverage does significantly affect the completion %.

Don't be afraid to DC, but remember, usually it's the Free Safety or Nickleback joining in the coverage, so you want to make sure that player has good m2m skills.

More....
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Old 04-01-2009, 06:13 PM   #11
Yoda
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My most recent discovery
I thought about including this and not including this, for various reasons, but here it is:
In my musings of defense and playcalling, I asked myself the question:
How can you be in BnR coverage the whole play? Once the receiver goes past the 5 yard limit, it's just m2m. As was pointed out in the other post:
Quote:
it strongly hints that MTM/Zone/BnR all effect each individule play to some extent
And that's true....
If you are playing BnR defense, after the initial bump at the line of scrimmage, you are in m2m coverage.
If you are in a zone coverage, once a player enters your zone you are in m2m coverage with that player.
So, as you can see, m2m is very important, not to downplay the importance of the others.
Anyway, hopefully some have found this somewhat helpful. Comments, questions, rebukes or adding to this are welcome...
If I do another update, it will be something like drafting team, and developing a defense for that team.
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Old 04-01-2009, 06:15 PM   #12
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Great read, thanks.
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Old 04-01-2009, 06:43 PM   #13
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wow Yoda very informmative
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Old 04-01-2009, 06:51 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoda View Post

One of the more under-used defenses:
Weak-Side Man Cover - This is a combination zone/man-to-man
defense with the safeties in two deep zones. On the weak side of
the field, defenders are in a man-to-man coverage scheme. On the
strong side, the cornerback plays in a short zone along with
linebackers, if necessary. This coverage gives you a little variety
and is slightly better against teams with a good receiving tight end.
In a email to support from the game, I learned that:
To answer your question, in the strong-side man and weak-side man pass coverages, only the corner on that side is in true man coverage.

How do you know which CB is on the weak or strong side?

Great read Yoda. Very helpful.
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Old 04-01-2009, 07:38 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
If you are playing BnR defense, after the initial bump at the line of scrimmage, you are in m2m coverage.
If you are in a zone coverage, once a player enters your zone you are in m2m coverage with that player.
So, as you can see, m2m is very important, not to downplay the importance of the others.

A nice writeup, thanks. It would be good to know how you came to some of these conclusions though. For example, the above--do you have some evidence that showed you this or is it just your interpretation? It seems we've all been burned by applying common parlance or football sense to the game terms before. My impression from previous threads was that it was not as simple as this to determine which ratings were being used in each play.
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Old 04-01-2009, 10:26 PM   #16
Yoda
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no9dia37 View Post
How do you know which CB is on the weak or strong side?

Great read Yoda. Very helpful.

Almost always I use the orient CB by formation.

Going by that, I use something like this:


Which would mean that the LCB is on the Strong Side of the formation.
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Old 04-01-2009, 10:28 PM   #17
Yoda
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Autumn View Post
A nice writeup, thanks. It would be good to know how you came to some of these conclusions though. For example, the above--do you have some evidence that showed you this or is it just your interpretation? It seems we've all been burned by applying common parlance or football sense to the game terms before. My impression from previous threads was that it was not as simple as this to determine which ratings were being used in each play.

Honestly, it came to me while I was trying to figure out what coverage bars were best for LB's. Like... why would a LB ever need BnR? In what circumstance? ect... and it just flowed from there, to a couple of email to sole support. And....

Here's where I got that tid-bit from:
-------------------------------------------------------
Yes, that's the concept behind having different ratings apply during the
same play.

--------------------------------
Ethan Potter
Customer Service
Solecismic Software

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jimmy Repine"
To: "Ethan Potter"
Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 4:37 PM
Subject: RE: Defense Question

Ok, so... let me ask this:

If you are in BnR coverage. Realistically, you cannot be in BnR the whole
play, so it would be for stuffing the guy at the line, and then m2m would
take over.

Zone is the ability to play your zone and notice when someone enters your
zone, once they enter, m2m skills take over.
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Old 04-01-2009, 11:45 PM   #18
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Okay, you are more than a Jedi Master. Thanks a lot for this Yoda.
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Old 04-02-2009, 09:19 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
In a email to support from the game, I learned that:

To answer your question, in the strong-side man and weak-side man pass coverages, only the corner on that side is in true man coverage.

Tailor your defenses to match your players.


Quote:
Originally Posted by no9dia37 View Post
How do you know which CB is on the weak or strong side?

Okay, you answered this question with a picture above, but I'm less interested in the picture than I am in playing FOF.

So, let's say I want to "Tailor my defenses to match my players."

So, in FOF, is there a way that you can see that I can make sure that my mostly-man corner is lined up on the weak side, and my mostly-zone corner is lined up on the strong side, so I can use the appropriate split coverage scheme to make best use of each guy's strengths?

In game, I seem to have two choices with my corners...orient by side, and orient by top/second receiver. I don't see a choice that pivots based on strong/weak.

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Old 04-02-2009, 09:22 AM   #20
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Old 04-02-2009, 09:26 AM   #21
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My #1 concern here is the 3rd and 5 thinking. If FOF were a 2D engine where little Xs and Os moved around, I'd say Yoda is correct. However, I strongly suspect that those are just explanations to correlate a probability-based engine to real football. My suspicion is that what those things mean are something along the lines of...

Run Aggressive = 15% higher chance of completed pass
Run = 5% higher chance of completed pass
Pass = 5% lower chance of completed pass
Pass Aggressive = 15% lower chance of completed pass

...and as a result, you're better off in pass aggressive any time they pass.
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Old 04-02-2009, 10:37 AM   #22
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Excellent job Yoda, this really should be saved for reference. Don't think I'm pulling this apart as I agree with most of what you say, but naturally there is no point in discussing those bits.

3rd and 5. You said yourself (I think) that aggressive pass defense greatly reduces YAC. Your going to see mainly short passes on 3rd and 5. Granted most will be 5-8, if the GM knows what he is doing, but still there is value in playing aggressive on this down and distance. I tend to agree with Ben's post, I think aggressive is simply a bit better against the pass than normal pass defense.

M2M. In summary I play this hardly ever, in any league. My players are often low, very often 0 in M2M. Still my defenses have always been pretty much always top 10. I have had a number of 1 ranked pass defenses with this system. Its certainly not down to the personnel. My teams are typically packed on offense, not defense.

Maybe if I used M2M as a system rather than BnR, it would work even better? But having a bias one way or the other allows me to invest star quality elsewhere, thats a given.

One thing that I'm not sure was widely picked up on, is that BnR is better against the run than M2M. That is based on the wide body of information published on here. A detailed in depth study of offense and defense statistics. I'm sorry I forget who put the information together.

In real life BnR is not just about the first 5 yards. It can throw off ANY pattern. It disrupts the timing if a receiver is held up at the line. Perhaps we should push that to one side, this isn't real football.

However from personal experience of how I have neglected M2M, and considering it is weaker against the run than BnR, I am able to say with confidence you don't have to call it to any extent, or have players that can play that type of coverage.
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Old 04-02-2009, 11:52 AM   #23
Yoda
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuikSand View Post
Okay, you answered this question with a picture above, but I'm less interested in the picture than I am in playing FOF.

So, let's say I want to "Tailor my defenses to match my players."

So, in FOF, is there a way that you can see that I can make sure that my mostly-man corner is lined up on the weak side, and my mostly-zone corner is lined up on the strong side, so I can use the appropriate split coverage scheme to make best use of each guy's strengths?

In game, I seem to have two choices with my corners...orient by side, and orient by top/second receiver. I don't see a choice that pivots based on strong/weak.

In the situation you would describe, I would use orient by formation, make your man corner the RCB, and use the Weak-Side Man/Strong Side Zone scheme. When using that formation, only the CB on the Weak-Side is considered in m2m, everyone else is considered to be in zone coverage.
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Old 04-02-2009, 11:54 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Ben E Lou View Post
My #1 concern here is the 3rd and 5 thinking. If FOF were a 2D engine where little Xs and Os moved around, I'd say Yoda is correct. However, I strongly suspect that those are just explanations to correlate a probability-based engine to real football. My suspicion is that what those things mean are something along the lines of...

Run Aggressive = 15% higher chance of completed pass
Run = 5% higher chance of completed pass
Pass = 5% lower chance of completed pass
Pass Aggressive = 15% lower chance of completed pass

...and as a result, you're better off in pass aggressive any time they pass.

That's why I listed it as a theory. Unlike others (and what others may believe) I don't have the skills to set up a parcer to go through and check each time it was 3rd and 5, what was the coverage, what type of play was called, and what was the success rate.

If I could do something like that, it would make stuff like this ALOT easier.
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Old 04-02-2009, 12:12 PM   #25
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Excellent job Yoda, this really should be saved for reference. Don't think I'm pulling this apart as I agree with most of what you say, but naturally there is no point in discussing those bits.

I wanted to start conversation on this, so I figured the best way was to post something and get people to disagree with me.

Quote:
3rd and 5. You said yourself (I think) that aggressive pass defense greatly reduces YAC. Your going to see mainly short passes on 3rd and 5. Granted most will be 5-8, if the GM knows what he is doing, but still there is value in playing aggressive on this down and distance. I tend to agree with Ben's post, I think aggressive is simply a bit better against the pass than normal pass defense.

Yes, I've run several dozen seasons using what someone mentioned here, the 'dime' defense. And I did seasons where it was all 'normal' pass, and other with all 'agressive' pass. The YAC allowed was significantly less in seasons where the 'all-dime/all-aggressive' defense was used.

Well, if they don't know now (about short passes on 3rd and 5, lol), they do!

Yes, that's just a theory of mine, and it's something I wish I could test. I have plenty of logs, just no way to parce them. If someone would write/give me one, I'd be happy to post the results.


Quote:
M2M. In summary I play this hardly ever, in any league. My players are often low, very often 0 in M2M. Still my defenses have always been pretty much always top 10. I have had a number of 1 ranked pass defenses with this system. Its certainly not down to the personnel. My teams are typically packed on offense, not defense.

Ok, let me ask this.... in leagues where you don't have one of the top offenses, where do your defenses rank? In the TFL for instance, last season I was one of the worst ranked offenses, but at the sametime, I was one of the top ranked defenses. Could have been an aboration, but I'd like to think I am a LITTLE better than that. lol.

Quote:
Maybe if I used M2M as a system rather than BnR, it would work even better? But having a bias one way or the other allows me to invest star quality elsewhere, thats a given.

One thing that I'm not sure was widely picked up on, is that BnR is better against the run than M2M. That is based on the wide body of information published on here. A detailed in depth study of offense and defense statistics. I'm sorry I forget who put the information together.

In real life BnR is not just about the first 5 yards. It can throw off ANY pattern. It disrupts the timing if a receiver is held up at the line. Perhaps we should push that to one side, this isn't real football.

However from personal experience of how I have neglected M2M, and considering it is weaker against the run than BnR, I am able to say with confidence you don't have to call it to any extent, or have players that can play that type of coverage.

I didn't know that about BnR (against the run), but it makes sense.

Yes, and if the player 'beats' the BnR then they are usually wide open until someone playing zone gets over to help.

Again, I wish I could parse this stuff, but I lack the skills to program such.
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Old 04-02-2009, 12:45 PM   #26
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In the situation you would describe, I would use orient by formation, make your man corner the RCB, and use the Weak-Side Man/Strong Side Zone scheme. When using that formation, only the CB on the Weak-Side is considered in m2m, everyone else is considered to be in zone coverage.



So, your view is that the right side is always the weak side? Have anything to back that up other than one arbitrary picture? Are we talking past one another here?
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Old 04-02-2009, 12:57 PM   #27
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Old 04-02-2009, 01:03 PM   #28
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Old 04-02-2009, 01:05 PM   #29
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So, your view is that the right side is always the weak side? Have anything to back that up other than one arbitrary picture? Are we talking past one another here?

There are no guarantees here, we know that with FOF. However, given that LCB covers top WR in orient by receiver, and given that the double-coverage settings say "Double cover strong-side" and "Double cover weak-side" when you switch to orient by side of formation, it's a pretty good guess based on the one clue FOF gives us. If it's not true, I'd claim it was a bug (much like the goal-line defense switched gameplanning columns that took us forever to figure out). Of course, as I started this, there are no guarantees with FOF, and we can't figure out from the game who is covering who when, so who the heck knows which way it is supposed to be, or which way it actually is? Aside from Jim of course. And maybe jkat.

There, how's that for covering both sides of the conversation in one paragraph?
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Old 04-02-2009, 01:25 PM   #30
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So, your view is that the right side is always the weak side? Have anything to back that up other than one arbitrary picture? Are we talking past one another here?

No, I don't think we are. This is the best I can come up with and why I think this way.

If you go into the Personnel- X Formations screens, you will see that the TE is always listed as being next to the Flanker. Therefore the Flanker 'side' is always the 'strong' side.

I see nothing in anywhere to suggest it's otherwise. In the NFL, yes, the TE can line up on either side. I just haven't seen anything in any logs or documemtation on the game to say otherwise.
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Old 04-02-2009, 02:39 PM   #31
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If you go into the Personnel- X Formations screens, you will see that the TE is always listed as being next to the Flanker. Therefore the Flanker 'side' is always the 'strong' side.

I see nothing in anywhere to suggest it's otherwise. In the NFL, yes, the TE can line up on either side. I just haven't seen anything in any logs or documemtation on the game to say otherwise.

Actually, the Flanker side is by definition the strong side... Flanker is the receiver who stands back from the line, i.e. the tackle on that side is covered (by the Tight End). A Split End is a receiver set on the line, covering the tackle (i.e. no Tight End).

FOF can go strong right / strong left from an offensive perspective. From a defensive perspective, we assume that RCB and LCB stay left/right, and in essence switch assignments between the FL and the SE.
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Old 04-02-2009, 03:40 PM   #32
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No, I don't think we are. This is the best I can come up with and why I think this way.

If you go into the Personnel- X Formations screens, you will see that the TE is always listed as being next to the Flanker. Therefore the Flanker 'side' is always the 'strong' side.

I see nothing in anywhere to suggest it's otherwise. In the NFL, yes, the TE can line up on either side. I just haven't seen anything in any logs or documentation on the game to say otherwise.

I'll try again, as plainly as I can.

#1. I understand that in football generally, in a standard 2RB/2WR/1TE formation, with a TE and FL on one side, that side is the strong side. We're good there.

#2. You are saying to put my man-CB at RCB, and use a split formation calling for weak-side man coverage, to make better use of his skills.

#3. In your picture, that works out great. That offense is lining up their TE and FL on the left side of our screen (the offense's right side), making that side the strong side, and leaving the right side of our screen (where we put the RCB) the weak side. That looks great in that picture.

#4. My observation is that there's nothing magic about that left/right orientation in your picture. In football, and I believe in FOF, the offense can choose to make the strong side either on its left or right. Meaning that picture could jsut as easily have a mirror-image offensive lineup, with the TE and FL both lined up on our right hand side... meaning our man-coverage guy has just been placed into the zone side of the split coverage, precisely what we *don't* want.

#5. Thus, my question from before:

Quote:
So, in FOF, is there a way that you can see that I can make sure that my mostly-man corner is lined up on the weak side, and my mostly-zone corner is lined up on the strong side, so I can use the appropriate split coverage scheme to make best use of each guy's strengths?

In game, I seem to have two choices with my corners...orient by side, and orient by top/second receiver. I don't see a choice that pivots based on strong/weak.
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Old 04-02-2009, 10:36 PM   #33
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According to the FoF help file, the TE usually is covered by the SLB. Now, in order for that to happen, if the TE lines up on the other side, then the SLB would need to follow suit. Now, would just the LB's flip? Or would the whole defense? Or would the defense stay put, and the WLB would now cover the TE?

Admittedly, I don't know the answer to this question (maybe I'll email support about it). And I made a judgement call as to the way I THINK it works. No, I cannot give you a definative answer. I have an idea of how to test it that might show it, but then again, I cannot parse log files, so I cannot test my theory.

What I do find interesting, as greg mentioned, is that the Cornerback coverage is listed as 'Orient CB by Side of the Formation' which suggest to me that the LCB is always going to be on the strong side of the formation if that option is selected. And if that is true, then what I said works.

If not, I look like a dumbass.
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Old 04-03-2009, 09:04 AM   #34
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There are no guarantees here, we know that with FOF. However, given that LCB covers top WR in orient by receiver, and given that the double-coverage settings say "Double cover strong-side" and "Double cover weak-side" when you switch to orient by side of formation, it's a pretty good guess based on the one clue FOF gives us.

I will readily admit that I was unaware (or perhaps forgot) that the double coverage language flips to strong/weak when you orient your CBs by side. And I agree that is some evidence that LCB=strong, RCB=weak.

But seriously, don't you agree that the terms "LEFT" and "RIGHT" being placed right into the title of the position is itself a fairly strong clue, too? If the LCB is assigned to the left or right purely based on which side is the STRONG side, then why the hell call him the LEFT side cornerback? He's the STRONG side cornerback, right?

I agree that you have offered some evidence suggesting it may be right, and I totally agree that insisting on logic is not necessarily the way to go when trying to figure out FOF. Maybe there's some real-football convention that I am simply not understanding, but to me... left means left. If left really just means "left as long as that's the strong side, otherwise right" then I guess I stand corrected. *shurg*
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Old 04-03-2009, 09:45 AM   #35
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But seriously, don't you agree that the terms "LEFT" and "RIGHT" being placed right into the title of the position is itself a fairly strong clue, too? If the LCB is assigned to the left or right purely based on which side is the STRONG side, then why the hell call him the LEFT side cornerback? He's the STRONG side cornerback, right?

To be fair, the depth chart says "Left/Top" and "Right/2nd", so all we've figured out is that FOF gives confusing and mixed signals. Which I understand is the point you were trying to make.

To answer this question directly, it would not surprise me if it was an oversight and simply just the way it's always been. There have been enough of those as this game has progressed. It's hard to figure out what is a clue to what is really happening, and what is just a bug / oversight. Like a crossword puzzle where 5% of the answers are misspelled. We have no clue if this is a misspelling, or exactly what was intended.
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Old 04-03-2009, 09:48 AM   #36
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To answer this question directly, it would not surprise me if it was an oversight and simply just the way it's always been.

I agree with this. Some time ago, I know a number of people were trying to dig out stats from pass-rushing defensive linemen in a 3-4 defense, and kept finding some suggestions that LDE and RDE didn't necessarily mean "the guy on the left" and "the guy on the right." Suffice it to say that this may well be some more supporting evidence for the theory that FOF's references to left and right on defense may just be code for strong and weak, respectively.

I guess that's kinda good to know, if true, but seriously... why?
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Old 04-03-2009, 12:41 PM   #37
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I think the number-crunchers would probably say there are no 'sides'. LCB matches against #1 WR, RCB against #2, etc. LT matches against #1 pass-rusher, RT against #2.

Which is probably true, I've no real idea either way. I tend to play more figuring sides and formations. But as has been pointed out numerous times, this is a simulation based on football, not a football simulation.
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Old 04-03-2009, 12:43 PM   #38
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Here is the response I just received from Solecismic support:
Left is always left and strong is always attached to the strong side of the
offensive team's formation. This is set up in this manner because typically
NFL teams have a strong-side linebacker who often covers the tight end (or
the strong safety does), but cornerbacks are either aligned by left/right or
are assigned to a particular receiver.

To make sense of it, imagine how a defense reacts to pre-snap motion. If the
tight end switches sides, changing the strength of the formation, you will
see linebackers moving, but generally corners do not unless they are in man
coverage on a specific receiver.

--------------------------------
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Customer Service
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Old 04-03-2009, 12:53 PM   #39
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Thanks, Yoda. That makes more sense to me, but alas, it clearly unravels your theory about how to use man-only and zone-only corners in a split coverage scheme.
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Old 04-03-2009, 02:26 PM   #40
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Thanks, Yoda. That makes more sense to me, but alas, it clearly unravels your theory about how to use man-only and zone-only corners in a split coverage scheme.

Yeah, it does, doesn't it?

Well, one of the reasons I posted this stuff was to get people talking. And it has worked.

At this point, other than not calling any zone defense coverages, I don't know of a way to set it up to hide players like that... but it 'feels' like you should be able to.

I may still do it and just take my chances, lol.
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Old 04-03-2009, 04:43 PM   #41
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At this point, other than not calling any zone defense coverages, I don't know of a way to set it up to hide players like that... but it 'feels' like you should be able to.

That's where I have been on this for some time, sadly. I do appreciate you digging a bit on this.

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Old 04-03-2009, 05:17 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
Here is the response I just received from Solecismic support:
Left is always left and strong is always attached to the strong side of the
offensive team's formation. This is set up in this manner because typically
NFL teams have a strong-side linebacker who often covers the tight end (or
the strong safety does), but cornerbacks are either aligned by left/right or
are assigned to a particular receiver.

To make sense of it, imagine how a defense reacts to pre-snap motion. If the
tight end switches sides, changing the strength of the formation, you will
see linebackers moving, but generally corners do not unless they are in man
coverage on a specific receiver.

--------------------------------
Ethan Potter
Customer Service
Solecismic Software


Heh, maybe I'm too far removed from the pro game, but if all four of my linebackers started moving in a 3-4 because a silly tight end couldn't figure out what side he was supposed to line up on, I might fire all of them.
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Old 04-04-2009, 08:47 AM   #43
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That's where I have been on this for some time, sadly. I do appreciate you digging a bit on this.

Thanks =)

In the end, what I hope to have is something that will give people a little better understanding (as well as myself) on how to build/design a defense and how to game plan one.

I don't just want to hand out a bunch of numbers and say, here use this. I'd like for people to learn how to specifically tweek and implement it for themselves.
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Old 04-04-2009, 09:35 PM   #44
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Thanks, Yoda. That makes more sense to me, but alas, it clearly unravels your theory about how to use man-only and zone-only corners in a split coverage scheme.

Although it does leave room for man-only and zone-only linebackers. Given the recent proliferation of short-passing gameplans, that may be useful.
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Old 04-05-2009, 07:01 AM   #45
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Although it does leave room for man-only and zone-only linebackers. Given the recent proliferation of short-passing gameplans, that may be useful.

Not so sure about that. You comfy based on what you have read that the WLB in a strongzone/weakman split coverage is exclusively in man? I'm not.
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Old 04-05-2009, 09:29 AM   #46
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Not so sure about that. You comfy based on what you have read that the WLB in a strongzone/weakman split coverage is exclusively in man? I'm not.

In the split coverage, everyone except the CB in man coverage is in Zone coverage.

Granted, even then their m2m skills will have some effect.

Here's the response I got confirming that:
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Bug with Dime Coverages
> Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 01:15:08 -0400
>
> To answer your question, in the strong-side man and weak-side man pass
> coverages, only the corner on that side is in true man coverage.
>
> --------------------------------
> Ethan Potter
> Customer Service
> Solecismic Software

And we know from this:
Probably all three skills are used in some manner on every play.

As to how much each skill is used on each play, can't really get into code
algorithms.

--------------------------------
Ethan Potter
Customer Service
Solecismic Software

----------------------------------------------
That even when in zone, that m2m (and possibly bnr) are used on each play.

I'd still prefer a 'high' Zone bar as opposed to balanced lower bars (like 70+ zone as opposed to even 30's across the board).
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Old 04-07-2009, 04:18 PM   #47
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With the responses I've received, I am going to be re-writing parts of this, and would like to offer anyone that would like to add suggestions and what not to post here, pm me or send me an email [email protected]
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Old 04-07-2009, 05:54 PM   #48
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Thumbs down Strong side

Hi,
(1) Have we actually verified that when an offence switches from strong-side left to strong-side right the flanker moves from his left side to his right side in FOF?
Thanks,
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Old 04-07-2009, 06:00 PM   #49
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Well, the football definition of "strong side" gets a little complicated in a few situations, but by and large, the strong side is the side with the tight end. And pretty much by definition of the position, the flanker is the WR who lines up off the line of scrimmage, because that keeps the TE on that side eligible.

So, in anything approaching a "base" offense, that's the definition of being the flanker -- you're the WR on the strong side, lined up outside the TE and off the line a couple of steps (technically in the backfield). So, basically, I think there's every reason to believe that we have confirmed that's how it works in FOF as well -- to switch the strong side, you essentially swap the receivers as well as the TE.
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Old 08-01-2009, 11:31 PM   #50
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Sorry all for bumping a old post but I found this thread as a new player very usefull for basic understanding of defensive game planing. Thank you Yoda and the rest for your discusion of this subject.
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