FOF Pay League **TWO TEAMS LEFT TO CLAIM. JOIN FOR FREE AND KEEP YOUR EARNINGS**

[Ben E Lou]

EDIT: FORUM IS UP. HERE IS THE FORUM LINK: The Cash Money Football League Forum

Trying to see where we are in terms of numbers. Here's the general structure (subject to tweaking by the collective 32 owners who join):

I am willing to be a non-owner commish for a league like this:

• $75 per person initial buy-in, plus one-time $8 per person vBulletin License fee.
• Payouts may only be taken above the initial buy-in cost. You pocket your earnings above $75 and play the next season for free. You're essentially paying a $75 franchise fee to get in. If your earnings are less than $75 for a season, they're all applied to next season's fee. However, in the league's final season, all earnings will be paid out.
• I am paid $225 per season. That will cover web hosting plus league administration.
• The remaining $2,175 is earned by the league owners based on performance
• Roughly 2/3 (~$1,500) of earnings will be based on regular season performance, and roughly 1/3 ($~750) on postseason performance.
• Specific earnings/payout structure may be found in the "PROPOSAL: $75 Buy-In" tab of the Google Spreadsheet I created, but in brief:
  • The champ will take a payout in the $350-$395 range, depending on how he did in the regular season.
  • The runner-up will take a payout roughly in the $200-$250 range.
  • Conf. Championship game losers pocket roughly $50-$100.
  • All other playoff teams basically get next season free or pay a minimal amount ($15 or less.) Some will earn minimal payouts ($15 or less.)
  • Every regular season win is worth $5.
  • Finishing 8-8 cuts the cost for next season to $35.
  • Just a 5-win season cuts costs to $50 for next season.
• Cities, stadiums, and finances would be leveled out in-game. Coaches cannot be equalized.
• 30% Cap Reduction, no franchise tag.
• Schedule would be a bit slower than the CCFL, but not much. Mainly I'll spread out staff hiring, do preseason in two sims instead of one, and drop to five sims per week.
• Low injuries to reduce the luck factor and to remove the necessity to export much during the regular season.
• Definitely want a league Board of Directors working with me to make decisions, mainly on trades.
• Initial owner group would pay an initial $8 per person one-time fee for a purchase of the new version of vBulletin.
• Best startup option would seem to be BFL-style: snake draft, 20-ish live rounds, AI the rest of the way. If the initial owners want me to do a full 53-round draft and manually enter all those guys, you're going to have to pay me a one-time fee for that headache, probably 10 bucks a head.
• Restricted trading, either by a simple "no trading of future picks" rule, or a trade review board.

Thanks. If we get enough interest based on this poll, I could get moving on this as early as this evening. (I'm in a hotel room in middle-of-nowhere Missouri with no responsibilities until the morning. )

[Ben E Lou]

Note that if we start with a 3-year commitment, there will be full payouts in year 1 and year 2 since you've already paid for next year. In other words, if you pay $225 and win 5 games in year 1, you'll get $25 back at the end of that season.

[w24olfpack]

In. Prefer not to tie up $225 but def everyone needs to pay up front of season.

And team preference would be either Denver or Carolina but would play regardless.

[RedKingGold]

In.

[RipMurdock]

If I understand the schedule correctly, the regular season would be simmed at 5 games a week Monday thru Friday. That's way too fast for me if I'm spending money. I could do 2 or 3 games a week but not 4 or 5.

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by w24olfpack

In. Prefer not to tie up $225 but def everyone needs to pay up front of season.

This.

[Dutch]

I've scaled back my leagues and am wrapping up my bachelor's degree work this week (night school can officially suck it!), so I'm good for at least a few seasons.

[sidthelid]

i'm in but 5 sims is a lot in one week if we're playing for money. Raiders please

[TRO]

Originally Posted by RipMurdock

If I understand the schedule correctly, the regular season would be simmed at 5 games a week Monday thru Friday. That's way too fast for me if I'm spending money. I could do 2 or 3 games a week but not 4 or 5.

This.

[Ben E Lou]

Oops. I probably should have mentioned that the injury setting would be 50 or 75 most likely, so there would be very little to do during the regular season. I only export three or four times a season in the CCFL right now with injuries at 75. That will help with that tremendously.

[Subby]

in

[scorp]

I am undecided on if I am interested but $75 a season and 5 sims a week gets steep when you complete a season/offseason in 6/7 weeks. you could looking a a new monthly bill.

[digamma]

Interested, but prefer a slower league in this setting to try to build community and immersion. Not that I make a whole lot of adjustments week to week, but I want to savor my donation a bit.

[RipMurdock]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Oops. I probably should have mentioned that the injury setting would be 50 or 75 most likely, so there would be very little to do during the regular season. I only export three or four times a season in the CCFL right now with injuries at 75. That will help with that tremendously.

That's not the point, at least for me. If you think gameplanning for each game is important, then you need time to do gameplanning.

[Pyser]

ben, have you looked into a flat cap, or a cap that rises very slowly, as another means to keep salaries in check?

i prefer it in SP, though it doesnt work very well since the AI cant adjust. i just hate when kickers are suddenly making $5m a year, thought it could be another way to do a cap crunch.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Pyser

ben, have you looked into a flat cap, or a cap that rises very slowly, as another means to keep salaries in check?

i prefer it in SP, though it doesnt work very well since the AI cant adjust. i just hate when kickers are suddenly making $5m a year, thought it could be another way to do a cap crunch.

I've tested this myself, and I believe a MP league somewhere may have tried it. The bottom line is that a flat cap or low-rising one is basically just cosmetic. It doesn't affect any significant change in FA, though, because the players' contract demands scale with the salary cap. In other words, a guy asking for $5M a year under a $100M cap will ask for $10M a year under a $200M cap, and $7.5M a year under a $150M cap. There's a minor crunch in SP to the AI, because they don't reneg as often as we do, and it appears that the backloading is scaled to rise as if the cap were rising an average amount per year. But it's pretty much meaningless in MP if people just renegotiate the deals.

That said, if it's something the league wants to do as a means of keeping contracts stable, then it's certainly doable for that reason.

As far as speed, I'm certainly open to a slower pace. This is going to sound counter-intuitive until I explain it, but if we do a slower pace, the house would need to keep a little more per season. The reason is that hosting costs and resources required don't change for a slower-paced league. In other words, IHOF (3 games per week) was at 2032 FA1:5 this time in the 2011 calendar year. Now it's at 2036 Week 16. The CCFL ran the 2019 preseason on this date in 2011. It's in the 2027 playoffs now. So if I'm setting aside $75 per season for hosting (which is roughly what I was thinking) at a CCFL pace, it's $600 per calendar year. At an IHOF pace, that's only $300 per calendar year. I'd need to set aside $150 per season at that pace. (My plan is to get an entirely different server from my current one, dedicated to this league only, that costs $50 per month.) So going down to 3 games per week probably means an additional $75 per season to the house.

I just created an additional tab ($75 Per Season, Three Games Per Week) on the Google spreadsheet to reflect what the payouts would be at three games per week. The good news is that they don't really change much.

Obviously, if it's the difference between being able to fill the league quickly and struggling to find owners, the prudent move would be to drop it to 3 games per week. Let's see how it plays out the next day or two as the work week begins.

[bulletsponge]

if i was working steady id be interested, but now i cant afford this

[Gallifrey]

Interesting to see this thread.

I have run a fantasy football league for 18 years, and often wondered if a FOF league run like the fantasy league (entry fee, payout system) would work, or make a difference.

Big cheers to Ben for looking to take this on. It could prove to be solid.

[MalcPow]

In.

[claystone]

Getting shit back together with my life.

I'll be in for the 3-yr season for $225.

I don't mind 5 or 4 games a week. I actually perfer 4 games a week.

My new email is: [email protected]

[MRL17]

I'm interested, but 75 a month to get my ass kicked sounds pretty steep.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by MRL17

I'm interested, but 75 a month to get my ass kicked sounds pretty steep.

The seasons will probably take 2 1/2 months or so, so it's just $75 four or five times a year!

Seriously, with the way it's structured, you'll rarely have to pay that much.

[MRL17]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

The seasons will probably take 2 1/2 months or so, so it's just $75 four or five times a year!

Seriously, with the way it's structured, you'll rarely have to pay that much.

I do pretty well in normal leagues, but with 32 motivated owners, I am tempering expectations. If I assume that I go 4-12, then it's 55 per season. I guess that's pretty similar to my fantasy football league, so I'm tentatively in.

[mtolson]

Count me it. 3 games a weeks sounds good, 5 games might be pushing it for me as well.

[QuikSand]

In.

I prefer the highest nominal price anyone can stand, especially with the tiers of discounts in play.

Faster the better.

Would prefer fake teams and players of course, and insist on game-generated drafts.


Many thanks to Ben.

[Dutch]

I would appreciate fake teams and players as well.

[w24olfpack]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Would prefer fake teams and players of course, and insist on game-generated drafts.


Many thanks to Ben.

Thanks for taking on this project.

And COMPLETELY agree on the draft. If human eyes can see the draft classes then its not worth it.

[Ben E Lou]

If we do fictional, do we have someone in the group that can do logos? I doubt what I'd do to deal with that would be "acceptable" to most people. The only other thought would be to use the WOOF teams and logos.

[ShaneTheMaster]

I have logos/helmets etc. that I use for my personal leagues that yall can use to start with.

[Dutch]

I can help with the logo maintenance. Wont be Cuervo Gold but maybe a bronze quality to them.

[ShaneTheMaster]

Heres some samples that I have:

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

If we do fictional, do we have someone in the group that can do logos? I doubt what I'd do to deal with that would be "acceptable" to most people. The only other thought would be to use the WOOF teams and logos.

Woof closed? Damn, I know sportsdigs talked about this apparently 4 months ago.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I can help with the logo maintenance. Wont be Cuervo Gold but maybe a bronze quality to them.

If we used the ShaneTheMaster logos, would you be able to get a template to modify for future new teams? (I have no idea how all of that works.)

[Ben E Lou]

Oh, and one thing that those of you wanting fictional teams *might* not be aware of, but that I've experienced as a commish, and had other commishes share similar stories with me: it can be at least somewhat limiting. There's a subset of potential owners who only want to play in a league with NFL teams and cities.

I'm not saying that's a reason not to do it, but just wanting to make sure you're going in with eyes wide open.

[w24olfpack]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Oh, and one thing that those of you wanting fictional teams *might* not be aware of, but that I've experienced as a commish, and had other commishes share similar stories with me: it can be at least somewhat limiting. There's a subset of potential owners who only want to play in a league with NFL teams and cities.

I'm not saying that's a reason not to do it, but just wanting to make sure you're going in with eyes wide open.

I prefer NFL names / cities but fake AI generated players.
But, I'm easy. Have some great fake city / name combinations.

We could ask Yoda to give us 32 Star Wars universe teams....

[ShaneTheMaster]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

If we used the ShaneTheMaster logos, would you be able to get a template to modify for future new teams? (I have no idea how all of that works.)

If you use my stuff, I can provide the template, as I made it myself, also I enjoy doing that sort of stuff, so I'm willing to create additional artwork if needed.

[Dutch]

I'm about 85% there with Cuervo's logo's and those were recreated from some old template. The pics above are from a template that, if layered properly, can be re-used easily enough. The key is having the actual flat logo files. Once you have those, the rest is cake.

I would expect that folks would have their own logo's they would want incorporated into fictional universes. So the agreed upon template is the big thing. I personally like the templates that Cuervo chose to use 10 years ago....amazingly enough, they are still the best one's available for this sort of stuff.

[Ben E Lou]

OK, so I'm confused, Dutch. Are we using the Shane stuff, or are you going to create 32 sets from scratch? (Keep in mind that for my sites, I need about 5 versions of each team's logo.)

[Ben E Lou]

(Fwiw, I think you guys are making a big mistake by trying to go fictional teams with this, but that's your call.)

[sidthelid]

I'm going to pull out at this stage, thanks and i hope it all goes well.

[Subby]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

(Fwiw, I think you guys are making a big mistake by trying to go fictional teams with this, but that's your call.)

I think we need to do it the easiest way possible and just use NFL logos and teams and cities. This is about winning money, not making a quirky fake football team/town.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Subby

I think we need to do it the easiest way possible and just use NFL logos and teams and cities. This is about winning money, not making a quirky fake football team/town.

To be clear, I'm not talking "degree of difficulty" here when I make the above statement. My #1 question about this concept is "can you sustain close to 32 owners?" I'd do everything I can to keep 32 owners, and my strong impression is that you lose more potential owners by going with fictional franchises. Now, MAYBE that's different if $$$ is a motivation...

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by Subby

I think we need to do it the easiest way possible and just use NFL logos and teams and cities. This is about winning money, not making a quirky fake football team/town.

Ok, I'm warming up to this on juice/squeeze metrics. I have had trouble getting "attached" to my NFL-based teams, but maybe the dead presidents can help us all on that front.

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by w24olfpack

We could ask Yoda to give us 32 Star Wars universe teams....

I could see doing that some day. But my plate is pretty full of FoF atm.

[Ben E Lou]

Is there a way to get around the Paypal transaction fees? I forgot about that little factor. I think around $2.50 of a $75 PayPal goes to PayPal.

[Yoda]

There is a fee one way or the other. If you list it as a donation one side pays it, if it's just a regular payment, then the other pays for it.

If people trust me, I'll run it though my wife's propay account, there is still a fee, but smaller than Paypals.

Maybe an NPO gets around them, not sure.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Yoda

There is a fee one way or the other. If you list it as a donation one side pays it, if it's just a regular payment, then the other pays for it.

If people trust me, I'll run it though my wife's propay account, there is still a fee, but smaller than Paypals.

Maybe an NPO gets around them, not sure.

Let's just keep it PayPal for ease. People are more familiar with it.

I can just set up the payment as a regular payment so people pay the extra couple of bucks, allowing us to keep the payouts as suggested. Thanks for that info. Didn't realize that.

[digamma]

I thought if you use your bank account directly, fees are waived?

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by digamma

I thought if you use your bank account directly, fees are waived?

There is a lot of conflicting information out there, different sources say different ways are free. When I called paypal about it, the rep said- essentially someone pays somehow, either coming or going.

You can google how to avoid paypal fees and there is nearly endless links.

[claystone]

I prefer NFL teams, but if everyone else wants fictional teams then so be it.

But my vote will be for NFL Teams.