Werewolf XX - Of Demons and Elementals (Humans Win!)

[Poli]

Egad. I liked Vancouver, sort of.

[Blade6119]

sooooo....ya.....WVU left....

[Poli]

Maybe he didn't have time to deal with it...maybe he didn't get far enough in and had to go.

Maybe....heh. I do know I have to hit walmart like yesterday or my wife will make me bleed.

[dubb93]

Damnit, just got caught up, saw read people saying WVU was around and had the "floor" to talk, and then nothing from him. Where the hell did he go?

For the time being I'm leaving my vote on Blade as I suspect him, although once WVU replies and I'm around it will almost certainly go on Saldana or WVU. I have a bad feeling about Saldana at this point.

He has no evidence and left himself outs so assuming he's a demon and WVU is innocent, he still has plenty of outs. It's hard to imagine making his play today without any evidence if he is a villager. Something is up.

[saldana]

first off blade, thats interesting that i was online at 4:26, since i was in my car on my way to work at that point.

second, i guess i am the only one that thinks maybe the reason WVU hasnt said ONE SINGLE WORD ALL FREAKIN' DAY is because he has no defense...that i am right, and since you are so ready to let him off without him doing anything, why should he say anthing.

when you all decide i am a liar with absolutely no evidence to support it except blade's swiss cheese theory, and my dead body reveals me to be a human, not only can you all kiss my butt, but please note that it is Blade that leads this charge...mmmmm makes me wonder who WVU's coach is this game telling him to clam up as it seems that people like ardent and dubb (big surprise) are ready to kill me with absolutely no logic to support it.

whatever.....have fun, cya next game, i am done with this nonsense discussion.

[WVUFAN]

Sorry -- I work from 5-2, and usually access from work. I started to read from home, now I'm catching up with what's been written. I'll have a response in a few minutes.

[saldana]

dola, maybe the reason the wolves win most of these games is because too many people overanalyze things and are TOO paranoid about things that are simply just what they appear to be.....nothing in this entire game has been easy to understand because of the way CW is writing it, not a single one of us has been able to make definite conclusions from the day and night action posts, but since i was busy being careful about not quoting from his PM, that MUST make me a liar.

what a bunch of BS....

[hoopsguy]

Dubb, if you had found yourself attacked in the night phase and survived without knowledge of your attacker, how do you think you would proceed?

If I found myself in that position, I think I would come forward with all of the information that I possessed. And I think I would ultimately end up making a best-guess lynching vote. As far as I can tell, he is doing that.

I think Saldana is smart enough to know that if he proposes lynching WVU and that player turns out to be a human, then he is going to come under incredible scrutiny tomorrow. In fact, he is coming under serious scrutiny today. But if he survives today then he is very likely to be a target for the special roles tonight - seer if still alive, perhaps a "villager one-shot kill" hidden role, etc.

Why, if Saldana is a demon, would he move himself to the forefront of the conversation?

Was he spotted last night?
Was he trying to seize the spotlight to protect someone else?
Does he have some kind of power that will allow him to lash out at the villagers if lynched?

Right now I don't understand motive for him to be lying. And I really want to see what WVU has to say about this situation. There should be at least two parties that were involved last night - attacker and attacked. And we are definitely not hearing from two parties on this incident up to this point in time.

The fact that only one side is reporting seems to support Saldana's version of the events, at leat the highlights: villager attacked and defends self, demons esacpe without detection. That doesn't mean that Saldana is the villager instead of the demon, but I would think that the villager is obviously going to spill his guts and the demon has his choice about confronting or hiding.

All in all, at this moment I'm still buying Saldana's version of the events today but that doesn't mean I'm hanging WVUfan. This is not a case of "If Saldana is telling the truth, then WVU is a demon". In fact, if I accept the premise that Saldana is telling the truth then I'm more inclined to suspect someone who is attacking his story in a secondary role.

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by saldana

first off blade, thats interesting that i was online at 4:26, since i was in my car on my way to work at that point.

second, i guess i am the only one that thinks maybe the reason WVU hasnt said ONE SINGLE WORD ALL FREAKIN' DAY is because he has no defense...that i am right, and since you are so ready to let him off without him doing anything, why should he say anthing.

when you all decide i am a liar with absolutely no evidence to support it except blade's swiss cheese theory, and my dead body reveals me to be a human, not only can you all kiss my butt, but please note that it is Blade that leads this charge...mmmmm makes me wonder who WVU's coach is this game telling him to clam up as it seems that people like ardent and dubb (big surprise) are ready to kill me with absolutely no logic to support it.

whatever.....have fun, cya next game, i am done with this nonsense discussion.

You have one vote against you....ONE....WVU has like 4...not sure why your in a tizzy, and note it is still middle of the day where i live so i give people slack with work until later at night...im presenting scenarios, like always...do you really ever see me go with everyone saldana? Im always the guys pointing in the other direction, and after last game when i was right about almost all of it a few people are listening to me...WVU wants to talk now, so lets hear both sides and then decide...note, its day 2 and your not on the block yet...i dont usually get mad till like day 4-5

[hoopsguy]

Blade, are you usually alive on day 4-5? What games have I missed?

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Dubb, if you had found yourself attacked in the night phase and survived without knowledge of your attacker, how do you think you would proceed?

If I found myself in that position, I think I would come forward with all of the information that I possessed. And I think I would ultimately end up making a best-guess lynching vote. As far as I can tell, he is doing that.

I think Saldana is smart enough to know that if he proposes lynching WVU and that player turns out to be a human, then he is going to come under incredible scrutiny tomorrow. In fact, he is coming under serious scrutiny today. But if he survives today then he is very likely to be a target for the special roles tonight - seer if still alive, perhaps a "villager one-shot kill" hidden role, etc.

Why, if Saldana is a demon, would he move himself to the forefront of the conversation?

Was he spotted last night?
Was he trying to seize the spotlight to protect someone else?
Does he have some kind of power that will allow him to lash out at the villagers if lynched?

Right now I don't understand motive for him to be lying. And I really want to see what WVU has to say about this situation. There should be at least two parties that were involved last night - attacker and attacked. And we are definitely not hearing from two parties on this incident up to this point in time.

The fact that only one side is reporting seems to support Saldana's version of the events, at leat the highlights: villager attacked and defends self, demons esacpe without detection. That doesn't mean that Saldana is the villager instead of the demon, but I would think that the villager is obviously going to spill his guts and the demon has his choice about confronting or hiding.

All in all, at this moment I'm still buying Saldana's version of the events today but that doesn't mean I'm hanging WVUfan. This is not a case of "If Saldana is telling the truth, then WVU is a demon". In fact, if I accept the premise that Saldana is telling the truth then I'm more inclined to suspect someone who is attacking his story in a secondary role.

Hoops=suspicious of Blade...thats all that post said new...lol...as for motive i said if he was seen he has all the motive in the world...not saying hes bad, even though i lean that way..just presenting both sides and playing devils advocate so WVU is not hung without asking the necessary questions and since he wasnt around at all i pushed a little harder...i still lean WVU, then hoops...but anywho

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Blade, are you usually alive on day 4-5? What games have I missed?

you saw last game smartass...i basically gave up after the taz/dacman lynches

[Poli]

Unvote Grammaticus

This vote appears to be worthless. I'm about to head out for the night, to Ryan's steakhouse. I doubt I'm back before the lynch vote.

I have 20 minutes before my mother in law comes over to wisk my wife and I away. I have to change meanwhile out of my incredibly beautiful Tennessee clothes into dingy regular clothing. Something about looking like everyone else. I don't get it.

20 minutes.

Right now, I'm not sure which way I'm leaning.

[hoopsguy]

Blade, the part about suspecting someone attacking in "secondary role" means that I think you might be doing the work of the demons for them in this case.

[WVUFAN]

I think everyone in the game either has a secret role or has the potential of a secret role if certain conditions are met. I have a secret role, but it is one (at least I believe) is more important in the later rounds.

Honestly, I can see Saldana's point. Him and Barkeep coached me very well on the last game, so I can certainly see how people may think I'm doing the same, but I'm not. If I point the finger at Saldana (as everyone thinks I'm gonna do) and everyone lynches him, I'm next, and I don't want that, mainly because I think my secret villager role could be important later in the game, and I don't have any feeling one way or another that he's a demon.

As for Saldana saying I have no defense -- he's right. No one has a defense, really, aside from the fact that I can say without a shadow of a doubt I am a villager -- not an elemental, and not a demon. A villager.

[Poli]

WVU, regardless of what happens tonight, you may have just placed a big target on your back if you live.

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Blade, the part about suspecting someone attacking in "secondary role" means that I think you might be doing the work of the demons for them in this case.

i see that as a route, but only about 25% chance(if that)....50-50 saldana is telling the truth...if he is, 50-50 it was wvu(thats being generous since saldana says he doesnt know).....so either generous 25% im helping wolves by defending wvu or 50% im defending a villager and spoiling a wolves plot...better odds in my course of action if im not mistaken

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by ardent enthusiast

WVU, regardless of what happens tonight, you may have just placed a big target on your back if you live.

One way or another hes dead dead dead soon

[hoopsguy]

At this stage in the day, I don't think we are going to see new evidence come into play to support to undercut Saldana.

So it comes down to: what do you believe happened last night when there was no kill?

1. Elemental attacked - I think the chances of this are nil, based on Coffee saying this would be public knowledge
2. Villager attacked and lived - this is where Saldana is taking the conversation. Think there is a good chance this happend (70%)
3. Villager converted - I think this is the other alternative, but would be up for someone suggesting a 4th option.

If the demons converted someone last night then why would Saldana come forward? He doesn't need to get his story out in front of another party if they converted that person. Only if they failed to convert someone and are worried about being fingered.

[WVUFAN]

Originally Posted by saldana

i am actually pretty even in my suspicions right now...i started on WVU after he voted for Blade on day one,because even randomly, i dont like that vote from someone who has seen first hand that blade can be a very helpful player (except for the last 15 minutes apparently), and he has said nary a word all game except for one quick post here and there, which is exactly what barkeep and i told him to do last game when he was a wolf with us.

I voted Blade because it was a throwaway vote. You are right, Blade is a very valuable player. Him and Dubb did the best job in the last game, which is why they are the last people I want as demons in this game. I also worded in as such as to make it like a joke, because I really don't want to eliminate Blade or Dubb until I'm sure they're demons because of their value. Anyone who read that original post must know I was not serious in my assertions -- except evidently you.

A thought occured to me. We all know villagers have secret roles, so it's safe to assume that demons do as well. From experience, is there a secret role that allows people to see what secondary role others have?

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by WVUFAN

I think everyone in the game either has a secret role or has the potential of a secret role if certain conditions are met. I have a secret role, but it is one (at least I believe) is more important in the later rounds.

Honestly, I can see Saldana's point. Him and Barkeep coached me very well on the last game, so I can certainly see how people may think I'm doing the same, but I'm not. If I point the finger at Saldana (as everyone thinks I'm gonna do) and everyone lynches him, I'm next, and I don't want that, mainly because I think my secret villager role could be important later in the game, and I don't have any feeling one way or another that he's a demon.

As for Saldana saying I have no defense -- he's right. No one has a defense, really, aside from the fact that I can say without a shadow of a doubt I am a villager -- not an elemental, and not a demon. A villager.

I will say this, there are far better ways of making it known what role you have...far subtler ways...you hope people catch on and thats it...this is either asking to die or a big ploy by a wolf to live...you make small hint, barely noticeable unless someone is loooking. You say something like it might take awhile to kill me to signify your role might not get lynched the first time they try...i hope everyone undertsands

[WVUFAN]

Originally Posted by ardent enthusiast

WVU, regardless of what happens tonight, you may have just placed a big target on your back if you live.

Not sure about that. There's a few ways that it could go down -- assuming I'm not lynched (which I probably will be), the demons know you guys already are suspicious of me, so why would they waste a night kill on someone that you guys will more than likely kill anyway? Assuming Saldana and me are both villagers, and simply turned on each other, they would kill Saldana, which will pinpoint me for lynching next round -- two villagers kills with little effort. Killing me in a night kill would be wasted, since I'm already on the block to begin with.

Of course, all this is moot if I'm lynched. VOTE SALDANA

[Poli]

This sucks. WVUFAN, I think you're screwed either way. You might as well tell us the role, as the demons will most likely attack you regardless.

I'm about to leave.

VOTE WVUFAN

And it pains me to do so, but I feel you're a dead man walking right now. I'd much rather vote saldana at this point.

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by WVUFAN

Not sure about that. There's a few ways that it could go down -- assuming I'm not lynched (which I probably will be), the demons know you guys already are suspicious of me, so why would they waste a night kill on someone that you guys will more than likely kill anyway? Assuming Saldana and me are both villagers, and simply turned on each other, they would kill Saldana, which will pinpoint me for lynching next round -- two villagers kills with little effort. Killing me in a night kill would be wasted, since I'm already on the block to begin with.

Of course, all this is moot if I'm lynched. VOTE SALDANA

You claimed to have a big secret role, meaning either your a wolf or wolf food now

[WVUFAN]

Originally Posted by Blade6119

I will say this, there are far better ways of making it known what role you have...far subtler ways...you hope people catch on and thats it...this is either asking to die or a big ploy by a wolf to live...you make small hint, barely noticeable unless someone is loooking. You say something like it might take awhile to kill me to signify your role might not get lynched the first time they try...i hope everyone undertsands

I would agree. However, there isn't a reasonable way of "proving" my innocence other than "you might need me later". It's basically Saldana versus me, and I'm gonna lose that battle.

So, having said that -- you might need me later.

[Poli]

Blade's right, unfortunately.

[WVUFAN]

Originally Posted by Blade6119

You claimed to have a big secret role, meaning either your a wolf or wolf food now

Good point. I'm a Grizzled Soldier.

[Poli]

I still think you're innocent WVU, I do. However, I can't turn my vote over to Saldana at this point.

[Coffee Warlord]

Lot of votes to be had yet, but the current tally:

0 - hoopsguy
1 - Blade
1 - TazFTW
3 - WVUFAN
0 - dacman
2 - saldana
0 - Grammaticus

Rhinos are winos but trouts cure gout.

[hoopsguy]

And what is implied within the grizzled soldier role?

[Poli]

Originally Posted by WVUFAN

Good point. I'm a Grizzled Soldier.

I'm listening, and running on borrowed time. Start talking and I'll start removing my vote.

Screw it.

UNVOTE WVUFAN

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by WVUFAN

Good point. I'm a Grizzled Soldier.

If your going to die you should reveal your role...i might wait till closer to the vote deadline, but if your a goner for sure you might as well help the team with your role and any info you may have

[WVUFAN]

Grizzled Soldier:

I'm a tiebreaker. If the vote is tied, I decide the lynching vote.

See, now I AM dead, so for goodness sake, make the demons waste their kill on me, not yours.

[Blade6119]

wow, tie ball game now...thats closer then i thought, and ardent is a swing vote currently

[Poli]

I'm out guys. Good luck.

[hoopsguy]

Coffee, should we leave what looks like a full PM up there?

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Coffee, should we leave what looks like a full PM up there?

I thought the same thing...wasnt sure if he paraphrased or not

[WVUFAN]

I'm still new at this -- didn't realize it was incorrect to do it. Sorry -- chalk it up to newbie stupidity. Won't happen again.

[saldana]

as far as why i am getting bent about this while there is only one vote on me, i am just getting frustrated that i have a vote plus 3 or 4 people saying i am a liar.

would it make anyone feel better if I unvoted WVU...besides him that is....i have been the first to admit that i dont have stone cold evidence...if i unvote him then no one can say that i am trying to string up a villager.......of course then i will just be accused of taking my vote off him in a desperate attempt to take suspicion off myself if he is lynched anyway and turns out to be human.

[saldana]

dola, ok, now that i saw that PM,

unvote WVUFAN

[hoopsguy]

I'm not sure that taking it down makes sense with 1/2 the people in the game being in the thread right now. Hopefully Coffee can do whatever he feels he needs to do to right the ship - SirFozzie had a situation much like this back in the X-Com game.

WVU, sorry if we pushed you into revealing your role. But it is a pretty universal WW rule to not post a PM word-for-word as that is very capable of tilting the board on these games.

Part of the reason Saldana has come under attack this afternoon is because his version of the night actions (paraphrasing the PM) doesn't seem to resonate with the scene the Coffee painted. I'm sure if Saldana is innocent he would love to paste last nights PM in its entirety to help prove his innocence but that isn't allowed in order to maintain game integrity. New player mistake ...

[WVUFAN]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

I'm not sure that taking it down makes sense with 1/2 the people in the game being in the thread right now. Hopefully Coffee can do whatever he feels he needs to do to right the ship - SirFozzie had a situation much like this back in the X-Com game.

Perhaps in the interest of fairness, since it was me that screwed up, I should be lynched. I completely understand if that is what needs to be done. It wasn't intentional, but the damage has been done. Again, my apologies for this.

WVU, sorry if we pushed you into revealing your role. But it is a pretty universal WW rule to not post a PM word-for-word as that is very capable of tilting the board on these games.

It's all good. I don't get upset over stuff like this. Hell, I would be on the bandwagon if I were one of you.

Part of the reason Saldana has come under attack this afternoon is because his version of the night actions (paraphrasing the PM) doesn't seem to resonate with the scene the Coffee painted. I'm sure if Saldana is innocent he would love to paste last nights PM in its entirety to help prove his innocence but that isn't allowed in order to maintain game integrity. New player mistake ...

[Coffee Warlord]

It's been handled. All is well. Scurry along now.

[hoopsguy]

We really have nothing to go on at this point if we believe both Saldana and WVU.

I've got maybe 15-30 minutes left here before heading out for the night and I won't be back until after the vote. I want to get a vote in, but this one is pretty blind:

VOTE KINGFC

This is pretty much a case of voting for the absent guy. Which seemed to not work very well in Day 1. But the guys who are around right now to defend themselves - AE, Blade, Saldana, Taz - are lower on my list of suspects at the present time.

[TazFTW]

I am inclined to believe Saldana so my vote won't go to him because I feel it is too early to go for a false reveal. I am not going to vote for WVUFan because Saldana was just pointing a finger at what he perceives is the most likely suspect (edit as I typed this, I see my initial feeling about WVU is correct). I am wondering why Barkeep thinks I'm the most "promising" of being a demon?

[dacman]

I don't feel comfortable voting for either saldana or WVUFan now.

That leaves the "quiet" vote. He's been here, but awful quiet.

VOTE TazFTW

[dacman]

Dola,

Well son of a *&%(&^$(&^.

Speak of the devil.

[Coffee Warlord]

Okay, that was weird.

[dacman]

Originally Posted by TazFTW

I am wondering why Barkeep thinks I'm the most "promising" of being a demon?

I think that's rather straightforward -- you're here but rarely say anything.

[TazFTW]

I am not a devil. I am Kellen Winslow II.