WW XXIV: Treasure Hunt (GAME OVER!)

[Qwikshot]

Originally Posted by saldana

look gramps, i am sure you have wonderous tails of how you spent all day boiling your brain in "the good ol'days", but someone as good looking as i am doesnt have time to sit around and listen to them *tosses long golden locks of hair and walks away*

hehehehe...look at them there locks...where's the three bears...(swigs a shot something fierce)...heat taint nothing...a blade is more me concern.

[Grammaticus]

I think Qwick is just a veteran treasure hunter that has been in the biz longer than most. Sounds like he doesn’t like the fact some newbie’s might strike it rich before him.

[Qwikshot]

Originally Posted by Grammaticus

I think Qwick is just a veteran treasure hunter that has been in the biz longer than most. Sounds like he doesn’t like the fact some newbie’s might strike it rich before him.

Seems like we got an echo in the hut, that or yer parrot is repeating mah claim.

[Qwikshot]

OOC:

By the way, I was checking the rules...do we start out with any cash or completely broke?

[Grammaticus]

Sounds like the benefit to creating a smaller monopoly is the chance to root out a pirate if you are denied. But the downside is much greater, you will have less money in your pool, making it more difficult to win. Basically someone else trying to create a monopoly or pirates have a greater chance (than against a large monopoly) to achieve the gold standard of winning. Then, as Barkeep said, it takes a lot to create a monopoly, making less of a strategy to create at this point in the game.

Also, what exactly does the monopoly do? I would guess from what I have read, it means your group pools their money to win. From the rules, once monopoly is achieved, the Treasure Hunters (“TH”) who participated WIN. It is the only way for us TH to win. You can’t win individually and you can’t win if you are not in the Monopoly. Since achieving Monopoly makes you win, then there can only be one. I would think our best bet is to try and achieve monopoly with all TH. Otherwise it gives a TH reason to sabotage the monopoly or elitists from the perspective of those excluded.

It may be a pirate strategy to try and stay in our monopoly to block us from winning.

[path12]

So I'm assuming the best play for this day is to go out and dig since there's not much else you can do without gold. Was there ever a consensus as to whether we should telegraph to each other where we're going in order to cover as much ground as possible?

It looks like initally (until we can afford a taxi or bicycle) that we'll be staying pretty close to home unless using the camp out option or if someone has fleet of foot. I'll offer to check out the mountain in E3.....

[pennywisesb]

Originally Posted by path12

So I'm assuming the best play for this day is to go out and dig since there's not much else you can do without gold. Was there ever a consensus as to whether we should telegraph to each other where we're going in order to cover as much ground as possible?

It looks like initally (until we can afford a taxi or bicycle) that we'll be staying pretty close to home unless using the camp out option or if someone has fleet of foot. I'll offer to check out the mountain in E3.....

What he said. But stop talking so much path12 and dig for crying out loud

[pennywisesb]

So, does it cost any APs to move through a square that isn't designated a certain feature (ie. blank square)?

[path12]

Originally Posted by pennywisesb

So, does it cost any APs to move through a square that isn't designated a certain feature (ie. blank square)?

It's just 1 AP as I read the rules, but I can't say more 'cause I gotta dig!

[Vince]

Originally Posted by Qwikshot

"Oooooh, I am a hopping MAD! I am so mad at all you, making a mess of my plans! All these years! So close to, to discov'rin' the source, to being rich! But you /ALL/ had t'come! Everyone of you should leave NOW! All of you! GET! It's MINE! Should be...I a earned it. Using maps, digging in the sun, rolling big rocks, understandin' the locals. EVERYONE, GO! Leave me the treasures, hunting in peace without you yutes underminin' whot's rightfully MINE! Ole Qwikshot 'noes! I AIN'T CRAZY! I can TASTE it! I can feel it! EVERYONE GETS! I'll fix you youn'ins. REAL real real real....(pauses) real Goooood (swigs whiskey and turns out)."

Well there old man, you sound like you know what you're doing. I won't be going out of my way to make a fool of myself, but I am new 'round these here parts, and any advice would be appreciated. Seems as if digging with my hands is my only option until I rustle up some gold and go talk to the shopkeeper about a shovel.

Originally Posted by Grammaticus

Sounds like the benefit to creating a smaller monopoly is the chance to root out a pirate if you are denied. But the downside is much greater, you will have less money in your pool, making it more difficult to win. Basically someone else trying to create a monopoly or pirates have a greater chance (than against a large monopoly) to achieve the gold standard of winning. Then, as Barkeep said, it takes a lot to create a monopoly, making less of a strategy to create at this point in the game.

Also, what exactly does the monopoly do? I would guess from what I have read, it means your group pools their money to win. From the rules, once monopoly is achieved, the Treasure Hunters (“TH”) who participated WIN. It is the only way for us TH to win. You can’t win individually and you can’t win if you are not in the Monopoly. Since achieving Monopoly makes you win, then there can only be one. I would think our best bet is to try and achieve monopoly with all TH. Otherwise it gives a TH reason to sabotage the monopoly or elitists from the perspective of those excluded.

It may be a pirate strategy to try and stay in our monopoly to block us from winning.

I'd assume that if we 'jail' all the pirates, we also win. That's usually a good way to win in a werewolf game.

[Grammaticus]

Originally Posted by Vince

I'd assume that if we 'jail' all the pirates, we also win. That's usually a good way to win in a werewolf game.

I'm not so sure of that. The rules do not indicate an outright win jailing all the pirates. They can still be bailed out and it appears the game would still go on until the monopoly is achieved. It could be all the good guys or a subset.

[Vince]

Yup, seems that the only way we win is by being in the monopoly. Interesting twist

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by path12

So I'm assuming the best play for this day is to go out and dig since there's not much else you can do without gold. Was there ever a consensus as to whether we should telegraph to each other where we're going in order to cover as much ground as possible?

It looks like initally (until we can afford a taxi or bicycle) that we'll be staying pretty close to home unless using the camp out option or if someone has fleet of foot. I'll offer to check out the mountain in E3.....

After thinking about it more, I'm not sure I want to tell everyone where I will be digging. It sounds like we have some cards stacked against us, so one of the advantages we have might be that the pirates actually have to find us. I know if I find a nice little vein of gold, I don't want the pirates to be offing me to get at it!

[Grammaticus]

Barkeep, if you camp out and are therefore not in the hut for the evening and the vote, can you be voted (lynched)? Or does camping out for your one time turn, mean you cannot be voted to go to jail on that turn?

[Schmidty]

Just a simple treasure hunter looking for gold checking in.

[path12]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

Just a simple treasure hunter looking for gold checking in.

Covering all the bases, I see.

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by path12

Covering all the bases, I see.

[Schmidty]

I'm totally confused. How many AP do we get per day? Do we start with any gold? Do we always start the day at D4 (even if we're somewhere else), or does that cost AP too?

I read through the rules 3 times, and I'm not seeing anything about that stuff.

[Schmidty]

Ok, I'm reading through some other posts and getting some answers.

[Grammaticus]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

I'm totally confused. How many AP do we get per day? Do we start with any gold? Do we always start the day at D4 (even if we're somewhere else), or does that cost AP too?

I read through the rules 3 times, and I'm not seeing anything about that stuff.

As far as I can tell, we get 5 AP for this initial morning round. You don’t have to spend AP moving back to the hut, it is automatic unless you choose to camp out, then you do not go back to the hut and start where you left off instead of D4. You can only camp once per game. You don’t start with any gold, you have to find it in order to spend it or save it for monopoly.

[Grammaticus]

dola,

not sure if 5 AP is fixed or you get different amounts next morning.

[Schmidty]

With only 5 AP, I don't understand how we're supposed to be able to get to the farther areas of the map at all, let alone be able to dig. Even with items it seems like it'll be tough. Now that assumtion is based on this example: Traveling from D4 to E3 would take every last AP and then you'd just go home without digging.

I hope I'm missing something here.

[Vince]

You don't need to expend AP to get back. Going from D4 to E3 costs 2 AP -- you'd still have 3 left.

[Schmidty]

I just firgured things out. Please ignore my previous, stupid posts.

[Vince]

Every morning, we wake up in the hut at D4, unless you used the camp out one-time thing.

Once we get gold, we can do things like take a cab to get from D4 to B7 by using 1 AP. Increases our range a little.

[Vince]

Ok

[path12]

Originally Posted by Vince

You don't need to expend AP to get back. Going from D4 to E3 costs 2 AP -- you'd still have 3 left.

I don't see in the rules where it says you don't need to expend AP to get back. What I see is:

"Each player must return to the hut at the conclusion of the Morning Cycle except if using the "Camp Out" ability listed below".

Where should I be looking for the part saying AP are not expended to return?

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by Alan T

After thinking about it more, I'm not sure I want to tell everyone where I will be digging. It sounds like we have some cards stacked against us, so one of the advantages we have might be that the pirates actually have to find us. I know if I find a nice little vein of gold, I don't want the pirates to be offing me to get at it!

I think I agree with that. I need to re-read the rules a bit to refine my strategy, but it seems our big advantage is that the bad guys have to find us in order to kill us.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by path12

I don't see in the rules where it says you don't need to expend AP to get back. What I see is:

"Each player must return to the hut at the conclusion of the Morning Cycle except if using the "Camp Out" ability listed below".

Where should I be looking for the part saying AP are not expended to return?

I think Barkeep posted it in the thread as clarification.

[TazFTW]

Originally Posted by path12

I don't see in the rules where it says you don't need to expend AP to get back. What I see is:

"Each player must return to the hut at the conclusion of the Morning Cycle except if using the "Camp Out" ability listed below".

Where should I be looking for the part saying AP are not expended to return?

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...8&postcount=76

[path12]

Originally Posted by KWhit

I think Barkeep posted it in the thread as clarification.

Thanks, just found it. I had printed out just the rules in the first post and hadn't checked the thread for clarifications...

[KWhit]

I'm out for a few hours (commute home, bathe son, eat dinner) then I'll be back on to submit my actions.

[pennywisesb]

Originally Posted by Alan T

After thinking about it more, I'm not sure I want to tell everyone where I will be digging. It sounds like we have some cards stacked against us, so one of the advantages we have might be that the pirates actually have to find us. I know if I find a nice little vein of gold, I don't want the pirates to be offing me to get at it!

I agree with this as well. It seems too easy for pirates to infiltrate any monopolies we try to form. This way, they actually have to work to get us.

[TazFTW]

Originally Posted by Alan T

After thinking about it more, I'm not sure I want to tell everyone where I will be digging. It sounds like we have some cards stacked against us, so one of the advantages we have might be that the pirates actually have to find us. I know if I find a nice little vein of gold, I don't want the pirates to be offing me to get at it!

The pirates don't have to find you though. The pirate with the knife can watch someone at D4, thereby following them wherever that person goes. When the person stops, the pirate should still have an AP (all the pirate roles unless there is a 'normal pirate' have the fleet of foot trait) to issue the kill action.

[Vince]

I'm curious about the kill action -- let's say a pirate is in the same square as I am, and he tries to kill me at the same time as I try to move out of the square. Am I safe, or dead? It seems like if whichever pirate with the knife tries to kill someone by watching them first, that treasure hunter is SOL from the get-go.

[TazFTW]

I guess the person could hide.

[Raiders Army]

Looks to be a pretty complicated game. I'm not sure what to make of it. I thought we were in the day (evening) phase, but to my surprise we're in the morning (night) phase.

Me not good at hard game like this.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by TazFTW

The pirates don't have to find you though. The pirate with the knife can watch someone at D4, thereby following them wherever that person goes. When the person stops, the pirate should still have an AP (all the pirate roles unless there is a 'normal pirate' have the fleet of foot trait) to issue the kill action.

Does it cost the pirates an AP to watch someone from D4? 1 AP correct? so if say they are fleet of foot, they are 1/6 for that action, while we are 0/5? That means if you take 4 movement turns, you will be 4/5 to their 5/6? So I guess if you choose to dig you risk death where if you use your last turn, they wont be able to kill you that turn?

So then you factor in movement items that you can purchase, but there is a public record of who is purchasing those items, so using those alot could backfire on a pirate I am guessing. Am I correct though in how the movement APs would work for a pirate? If so, there is some benefit to definitly staying quiet about your plans. it forces them to watch you from the start, vs just "meeting" you somewhere

[hoopsguy]

What I'm worried about here is that if we don't have some level of coordination then how are we going to build trust? My gut reaction upon re-reading the rules last night is that we could start to build some level of trust as an alternative to dying alone by pairing up.

We won't get information on a "lynch" since no information is revealed about a person when they are jailed.

Barkeep, do we get to see the players possessions when they are jailed? So would we know if we see a knife on the person that we got a pirate?

Even if this is true, there is only one knife among all the pirates. So our odds of voting to jail that person seem pretty remote in the early going ...

Working a little late tonight, but should be home in another couple of hours for some up-to-the-deadline discussion.

If anyone is interested in coordinating Morning 1 activities let me know and we can work towards that in the thread near the deadline. If not, I'm sure that I can think of something clever on my own ...


Finally, I don't believe that I can take place in the Night 1 vote if I'm using the Camp Out option. I'll double-check that tonight, but if I'm going to miss any vote I would think that Night 1 would be a good time to do this since we will have the least amount of information available. The down side to this seems fairly low, while the upside to this seems high if I'm able to identify a good spot for gold and able to communicate that to the masses.

[TazFTW]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

What I'm worried about here is that if we don't have some level of coordination then how are we going to build trust? My gut reaction upon re-reading the rules last night is that we could start to build some level of trust as an alternative to dying alone by pairing up.

We won't get information on a "lynch" since no information is revealed about a person when they are jailed.

Barkeep, do we get to see the players possessions when they are jailed? So would we know if we see a knife on the person that we got a pirate?

You can go to the police and buy the look at the evidence room for 4 gold. That was my plan to ID treasure hunters. Put someone in jail, next morning go to the police and pay the 4 gold to look at the person's role. If they are a hunter, bail them out when you have the 7 gold. rinse. repeat.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

What I'm worried about here is that if we don't have some level of coordination then how are we going to build trust? My gut reaction upon re-reading the rules last night is that we could start to build some level of trust as an alternative to dying alone by pairing up.

We won't get information on a "lynch" since no information is revealed about a person when they are jailed.

Barkeep, do we get to see the players possessions when they are jailed? So would we know if we see a knife on the person that we got a pirate?

Even if this is true, there is only one knife among all the pirates. So our odds of voting to jail that person seem pretty remote in the early going ...

Working a little late tonight, but should be home in another couple of hours for some up-to-the-deadline discussion.

If anyone is interested in coordinating Morning 1 activities let me know and we can work towards that in the thread near the deadline. If not, I'm sure that I can think of something clever on my own ...


Finally, I don't believe that I can take place in the Night 1 vote if I'm using the Camp Out option. I'll double-check that tonight, but if I'm going to miss any vote I would think that Night 1 would be a good time to do this since we will have the least amount of information available. The down side to this seems fairly low, while the upside to this seems high if I'm able to identify a good spot for gold and able to communicate that to the masses.

Pitch your idea more to me. How does it help us build trust? I looked at your idea previously and tossed out some thoughts about it, but the big thing I guess that would make it work or not is if when player B watches player A, they can see player C making an attack on them and identify that player. If you can't do this, what is the advantage to us of pairing up? Sounds more like all you do is telegraph your moves to the pirates, which up till now it seems like they have to at least waste an AP to follow through with.

Im all for looking at possibilities on how to keep our mining camp safe, so sell me more on your idea hoops.

[hoopsguy]

I don't think that we can prevent player C (pirate) from intervening, since we won't be watching him. In fact, we can only use the watch action for 2 turns (out of the five) during the action.

I'm trying to work out the logistics for how this would work and I'm definitely looking for feedback from others.

Starting point:
Pair up all players (we have an odd number, so one is left out)
One player will move/dig all five phases
Other player will spend two phases in watch, dig/move for remaining three

We can take the coordination to another level by determining what squares each of the groups should go to. So each set would vouch for the other that people went to the appropriate locations initially.

What I think we can do here is set up criteria that allow us to be able to track movements by the whole group, rather than each of us acting independently. If someone does break from their actions, their partner would be able to alert us to the breach in etiquette.

If someone ends up dead, then we have a smaller set of people to look at because pairs of people are established to vouch for each other every day.

We should then mix up the pairings on each day.

This plan requires widespread (near unanimous) cooperation in order to work. Not exactly how treasure hunters and pirates usually roll, but if we are looking to avoid a knife in the gut while getting rich together I think that this idea should at least be up for discussion.

The alternative, as I see it, is that we all scurry around like rats hoping that we don't end up in the same square as the pirate with the knife at the wrong time.

[hoopsguy]

You can go to the police and buy the look at the evidence room for 4 gold. That was my plan to ID treasure hunters. Put someone in jail, next morning go to the police and pay the 4 gold to look at the person's role. If they are a hunter, bail them out when you have the 7 gold. rinse. repeat.

I'm not sure that people are going to spend that 7 gold to free someone, versus using that gold to meet the monopoly requirements. However, I agree spending the four seems like a no-brainer - just a matter of getting someone to admit they have 4 GP and then spending it there instead of on something else.

I'm definitely interested in seeing the total gold for monopoly posted tonight/tomorrow. That, coupled with results from mining on Day 1, should give us some information on how feasible the quoted strategy will be ...

[Barkeep49]

Now I've only looked at one person's night action so I don't feel too bad about doing this:

Players will now recieve between 0-6 GP per dig action

I decided there simply wasn't enough gold to be dug up to make the dynamics work the way I wanted them to.

Ok let me answer questions that haven't already been answered. As a note, after Morning 1 I will only answer questions not answered in the rules. So if you post a question and don't get a reply from me, it's a hint to read the rules.

Treasure hunters and pirates alike start out broke.

Any square without a Mountain, Jungle, River, or Road is 1 AP to move to.

The TH do not automatically win if all the Pirates are jailed. I'm not going to keep the game going with no point, either, but do know that jailing the Pirates is not a listed win condition for a good reason.

If you camp out you can still be arrested. The police will find you, don't you worry . But no you may not vote (or speak until the Morning cycle) as you're out of the camp.

A pirate will be able to kill a person if they know the person's there and the person moves. So if you're in D4 and move to D5 and the pirate's action was to kill you, you'll be dead in D5.

I currently have night orders from 9 players leaving almost half to go with 3 and a half hours left in the cycle.

[TazFTW]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

I'm not sure that people are going to spend that 7 gold to free someone, versus using that gold to meet the monopoly requirements.

Well, many hands mean light work.

Although if I did use the evidence locker and found someone was a hunter I could put that person in my will, so that if I die he'll get the gold which hopefully will be enough to bail himself out.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

I don't think that we can prevent player C (pirate) from intervening, since we won't be watching him. In fact, we can only use the watch action for 2 turns (out of the five) during the action.

I'm trying to work out the logistics for how this would work and I'm definitely looking for feedback from others.

Starting point:
Pair up all players (we have an odd number, so one is left out)
One player will move/dig all five phases
Other player will spend two phases in watch, dig/move for remaining three

We can take the coordination to another level by determining what squares each of the groups should go to. So each set would vouch for the other that people went to the appropriate locations initially.

What I think we can do here is set up criteria that allow us to be able to track movements by the whole group, rather than each of us acting independently. If someone does break from their actions, their partner would be able to alert us to the breach in etiquette.

If someone ends up dead, then we have a smaller set of people to look at because pairs of people are established to vouch for each other every day.

We should then mix up the pairings on each day.

This plan requires widespread (near unanimous) cooperation in order to work. Not exactly how treasure hunters and pirates usually roll, but if we are looking to avoid a knife in the gut while getting rich together I think that this idea should at least be up for discussion.

The alternative, as I see it, is that we all scurry around like rats hoping that we don't end up in the same square as the pirate with the knife at the wrong time.

Hmmm.. there is plus side to this plan if it worked flawlessly I think. but there seems like alot of holes in it also to me.

Some of the downsides I see, with no answer to are:

Uneven pairs (not only on first night, but other times through out.) leaving someone wide open to doing anything unchecked.

With 49 squares, and 8 pairs, you could fairly easily end up with pairs close enough to each other, that someone could sneak from one "pair" to the other square to kill someone.

If you are the digger, you have no ability to vouch for the person who is supposed to be watching you, or what they did that night. As far as you know they might not have even been in the same square as you.

You might either hamper certain items that miners decide to buy if they have to stick to their pairing, or you might risk them outing themselves, or render their special traits (for those with some) useless by putting them in a place that they couldn't easily use it without outing themselves.

What if one person chose to camp out, no one could pair up with him and thus leave him unchecked per say.



--- I guess I like the idea overall, just trying to figure out how some of this works. It still feels like our biggest element that we have going for us is our suprise and unpredictability. Doing this removes both of those for us, and broadcasts our plans and actions, while still leaving us in the dark about the pirates.

[TazFTW]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

A pirate will be able to kill a person if they know the person's there and the person moves. So if you're in D4 and move to D5 and the pirate's action was to kill you, you'll be dead in D5.

Well that sucks.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

A pirate will be able to kill a person if they know the person's there and the person moves. So if you're in D4 and move to D5 and the pirate's action was to kill you, you'll be dead in D5.

So if a person doesn't move, they can't be targeted by the pirates?

[TazFTW]

I think it would be foolish for the pirates to kill someone today because one of the advantages of killing someone is stealing the gold on them.









I guess what I'm trying to say is don't kill me.

[Barkeep49]

If a pirate targets you for a kill, and knows where you are, they will be able to kill you.