Charlottesville

[korme]

How did we get here?

[RainMaker]

Apparently a group of individuals believe the bad guys were the people storming the beaches of Normandy.

[HerRealName]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Apparently a group of individuals believe the bad guys were the people storming the beaches of Normandy.

And abolishing slavery.

[JPhillips]

Years of turning a blind eye to a small group of white nationalists until eventually their guy won the election. The good news is that this seems to finally be forcing a number of GOP electeds to speak out and specifically condemn white nationalism.

Now they still need to connect it to the white nationalists in the WH, but a step is a step.

[NobodyHere]

I would add that they now have a semi organized group to brawl with these days.
Also the internet has allowed like minded individuals to group together and organize events as well as counter events.

[MrBug708]

There was a very clear act of domestic terrorism when it appears a white supremacist drove his car into the crowd of counter protesters Killing one woman and injuring many others.

Other than that, there seems to be very little understanding about the initiation of violence between protesters and counter protesters. This points out a rather troubling trend that seems to be accelerating. This protest/counter protest phenomenon is not new but the frequency with which it is occurring seems to be new. Every time some group takes to the street to protest, another group wants to counter protest at the same time and place and violence almost always results. I guess it's too much to hope that folks would just stay away from protests with which they disagree, and hold their own protest at a different time. I guess it makes too much sense.

I wish some leader had said there is going to be a protest by a vile, evil and abhorant group of hate filled white supremacists. Our constitution provides for free assembly of this kind and this group has obtained the necessary permits. Please stay away in the interest of your safety and the safety of others. We will be organizing a counter protest to occur very soon and we welcome you to join us at that protest.

[Young Drachma]

This isn't new. Just different.

[Toddzilla]

I actually know someone hurt in the terrorist attack. She's a young lady that lives in Richmond and drove with a few of her friends to counter-protest. She wasn't struck by the vehicle but seemingly hit by someone who was and (thankfully only) dislocated her knee. She's a far braver person than I.

[RainMaker]

That's still a brutal injury. It bothers me that when there are terrorist attacks we kind of just ignore the injured. It sounds like a lot of these people will have some life altering injuries.

[RainMaker]

Here's some background on the offender. About what you'd expect.

Here's What We Know About The Man Accused Of Killing A Woman At A White Supremacist Rally

I think there will be some questions about the police response to this. It seemed rather lax at times and you'd think they would do a better job of keeping the sides apart.

Originally Posted by Young Drachma

This isn't new. Just different.

I agree with this. There are clashes between sides that occur on a regular basis here in Chicago. This was more heated but not out of the ordinary in the results (some scuffles).

It does feel different to have a group that is so open about their nazi beliefs protest in public like this and receive support from large swaths of a major political party. The KKK used to protest in Illinois in Jewish communities and they were universally reviled by I'd say 99.999% of the public here. It's kind of weird to hop online and see people in the mainstream defend nazis today. Especially people who seem to never stop talking about how patriotic they are.

One of the other weird aspects was the hatred toward Jews. I know there has always been anti-semitism but I don't remember it ever being this mainstream. Listening to some of those live streams of the protests and I'd say a large amount of the vitriol was aimed at them.

[Toddzilla]

I wonder why that guy's family and minister never told anyone he was being radicalized.

[CrescentMoonie]

"She later told the Associated Press that she believed the rally was to support President Trump, not white supremacy."

There is no difference.

[miami_fan]

Might want to change the title of the thread to be more "inclusive"

Boston, you got next and the counter protest have already begun.

Boston protests ahead of ‘free speech rally’ | Boston Herald

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

"She later told the Associated Press that she believed the rally was to support President Trump, not white supremacy."

There is no difference.

Wow.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

Wow.

Really?

Go Google Steve Bannon and Breitbart.

[Easy Mac]

Maybe at rallies or "protests" like these, we should ban guns? The Constitution says peaceably assemble. Seeing the Nazis walk around with automatic weapons hardly seems to meet the definition of peaceably.

[Shkspr]

Maybe ban cars first.

[tarcone]

They should just ban people.

[Easy Mac]

I didn't realize you guys were that sense to not understand the difference between cars and guns.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by tarcone

They should just ban people.

Ban racist people.

[cougarfreak]

So now we look up what political party terrorists are from, and report that they voted? (essentially saying Republicans are terrorists)?

[Shkspr]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

I didn't realize you guys were that sense to not understand the difference between cars and guns.

As far as I can see, I believe the only times we've seen shootings at protest marches have been explicit assassinations like the Dallas police shooter. Micah Johnson wasn't part of the protest; he used the protest as distraction from his ambush but it doesn't look like he was ever in a position where he could be picked out and subjected to confiscation for a "gun ban". So your gun ban would have prevented precisely no violence in that instance. Police have said that the gun violence that occurred in August 2015 in Ferguson, MO during the one year memorial of the Brown shooting was connected to criminal activity, not protests.

If the automatic weapons at Charlottesville were such a threat, why did the Nazis use cars and sticks to commit violent acts? It's because the violence was committed by people with poor impulse control, and those types of people can find methods to commit violence regardless of what is licit and what is not.

Gun control is doomed to failure if we limit the discussion to physically controlling the existence and presence of firearms. Gun control instead has to be a discussion about making sure people with guns control themselves. This weekend, it was the kid with the car that didn't control himself. But overall, we've spent too much time in this country playing Jenga with the 2nd Amendment and not enough time sidestepping it by figuring out how we can get potential violent gun owners to move from "My gun's here to strengthen my argument" to "My gun's here to protect from lethal ambush, and that's it." And yeah, if one of the guys with a gun had murdered a girl and shot twenty other people, then we can start talking about carving out "guns at protests" laws. Of course, nothing would happen, but talking's always nice.

[Shkspr]

Originally Posted by cougarfreak

So now we look up what political party terrorists are from, and report that they voted? (essentially saying Republicans are terrorists)?

We always did that. What were Oswald's politics like? Jared Loughner? The softball shooter?

[AENeuman]

It is interesting how much of a political albatross these white groups have been historically. For a century were the democrats scourge yet politically necessary problem. Now they are the republicans problem.

[NobodyHere]

Looks like Seattle is trying to recreate what happened in Charlottesville. But it looks like the police are doing a better job keeping the left wing nazis away from the right wing nazis.

[HerRealName]

Because Nazis and people that don't like Nazis are totally the same.

[NobodyHere]

When you try to disrupt a peaceful protest with violence then you're a Nazi in my book.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

When you try to disrupt a peaceful protest with violence then you're a Nazi in my book.

That's an awfully low bar to qualify to be labeled alongside a group that slaughtered upwards of 20 million people.

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

When you try to disrupt a peaceful protest with violence then you're a Nazi in my book.

Are you actually saying that marching with torches and riot gear was peaceful?

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

When you try to disrupt a peaceful protest with violence then you're a Nazi in my book.

'Nazi' isn't an action. It's an ideology. Call them something else. Nazi actually means something very specific and generalizing it like you have trivializes some of the most horrific things we've ever done to each other.

Not sure that flying swastikas and giving Nazi salutes should really be classified as "peaceful" either. I get freedom of speech and all that, but you get a guy vilified and blackballed from the NFL for kneeling during a national anthem, yet somehow the right to fly a Swastika is sacred and everyone just needs to take it easy.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

When you try to disrupt a peaceful protest with violence then you're a Nazi in my book.

no offense, but that is just non-sensical.

And their get-up should fall under "Freedom of Speech" the same way as running around waving Slave-chains or pictures of Child pornography would. Not.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

'Nazi' isn't an action. It's an ideology. Call them something else. Nazi actually means something very specific and generalizing it like you have trivializes some of the most horrific things we've ever done to each other.

Not sure that flying swastikas and giving Nazi salutes should really be classified as "peaceful" either. I get freedom of speech and all that, but you get a guy vilified and blackballed from the NFL for kneeling during a national anthem, yet somehow the right to fly a Swastika is sacred and everyone just needs to take it easy.

How does a guy making five million a years huge "struggle" fit into this latest incident?

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

Are you actually saying that marching with torches and riot gear was peaceful?

My statement was clearly aimed at the protests in Seattle

FWIW I have no idea how the violence started in Charlottesville.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by panerd

How does a guy making five million a years huge "struggle" fit into this latest incident?

Did you even read what I wrote? Not sure why his salary is relevant though, I wasn't suggesting he was going to be living on the streets.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Did you even read what I wrote? Not sure why his salary is relevant though, I wasn't suggesting he was going to be living on the streets.

And how does he not have his freedom of speech? Isnt that exactly what the kneeling thing was about? What was the big punishment? His five million dollar salary? And who exactly is a big fan of the nazis on here outside of Jon's predictable dumb comments? They are being rightfully vilified everywhere. Your comment didn't make a whole lot of sense. Is there an NFL white supremacist that I am not aware of that is being praised?

[tarcone]

Instead of letting the wack job nazis have their protest. walk through town and be done, a group decided to counter-protest. Which was dumb. Let them have their constitutionally protected day, and then nothing happens.
But go out and antagonize and see what the nazis will do.

That was stupidity.

And when do we start the terrorist blacl lives matter thread? Why do they get a pass at rioting and looting and burning things down?

[RainMaker]

There is a really long thread on the police shootings and aftermath. I don't think they receive a pass for rioting and looting. Nor am I sure what it has to do with Charlottesville.

[JPhillips]

Fuck those Nazis. If there's no counter to them they'll end up with days of social media triumphs. I'll be damned if we're going to make decisions hoping not to upset these assholes.

They need the whole world to see them for the weak losers they are.

[tarcone]

Im comparing the two radical groups.
Im not sure a police shooting thread has the same focus as this thread. This one is targeting a radical group that is causing problems.
But the other thread is a more general type of thread.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Fuck those Nazis. If there's no counter to them they'll end up with days of social media triumphs. I'll be damned if we're going to make decisions hoping not to upset these assholes.

They need the whole world to see them for the weak losers they are.

Tell me how this incident showed them as weak?
I think this type of thing would embolden them. But a protest where no one says anything or shows up too, will make them fade away.
The only people on social media that will celebrate that are already radicals.

[ISiddiqui]

Imagine what would happen if Black Lives Matter had torches, riot gear, and auto weapons in a peaceful protest...

It's amazing how people are equating Nazis to counter-protesters. And blaming the counter-protesters... because letting Nazis go march without having to see that people don't like Nazis is so utterly essential to some people, apparently.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Im comparing the two radical groups.
Im not sure a police shooting thread has the same focus as this thread. This one is targeting a radical group that is causing problems.
But the other thread is a more general type of thread.

I don't have a strong opinion on Black Lives Matter but the other group is advocating for an ideology that wants (and has tried) to eradicate everyone who is not a member of their Aryan race.

[tarcone]

Yeah, I dont think that is happening anytime soon. Sure they think they are nazis, but really are they?
And the 2 groups are promoting violence, so I think they are about the same.
The only difference is one is a conservative authoritarian organization, while the other is a liberal authoritarian organization.

[AENeuman]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Instead of letting the wack job nazis have their protest. walk through town and be done, a group decided to counter-protest. Which was dumb. Let them have their constitutionally protected day, and then nothing happens.
But go out and antagonize and see what the nazis will do.

That was stupidity.

And when do we start the terrorist blacl lives matter thread? Why do they get a pass at rioting and looting and burning things down?

Sorry, your suggestion is ridiculous. There have been dozens/hundreds of these types of marches with little or no counter resistance. Are you saying that peaceful response is preferable because it what, hurt the alt right movement/recruitment?

I think, probably optimistically, that just the opposite happened. Because for years no one cared to get out of their house and emotionally counter protest, the movement thrived. For the first time in a very long time, people who are not the specific target of the groups hate are letting their frustrations and anger and rage be heard.

[JPhillips]

Do you really want, "The Nazis are being treated unfairly," to be the hill you die on?

[CrimsonFox]

And yet people are still trolling about this.

[tarcone]

So we have highlighted the nazi movement in the US by antagonizing them.
A young lady gets murdered.
How many of these other 10s to 100s of these protests did anyone hear about? I didnt hear about them. But the one I did hear about is when some foolish people went out to antagonize them. What do you think the outcome of a counter protest of a violent, fringe lunatic organization is going to get you? Flowers?

Now they are all over the media. This seems to me that it would raise their membership. I dont think those 10s to 100s of previous marches where no one really cared helped.

Im not blaming the counter protestors. It was a crazy dude that went off the reservation. But guess what? Had they not shown up, no one would be dead.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Im not blaming the counter protestors. It was a crazy dude that went off the reservation. But guess what? Had they not shown up, no one would be dead.

"I'm not blaming the victims. I'm just saying it's their fault."

[ISiddiqui]

Um... I heard about this protest in the middle of last week when they were planning to march. And on Friday night, when there were no (or very little) counter protests.

So... try again?

[cuervo72]

Or, maybe this convinces right-minded people that it's time to put a stop to this crap and squash the movement. Because until you push back, until you shine a light on them, they're going to keep at it.