A moral (amoral?) dilemma

[Vince, Pt. II]

I work for a utility company, and when the weather outside sucks, so does my job. Thankfully, my company has an inclement weather policy - once they determine the weather is poor enough, we are allowed to go home when we finish our daily work, but are allowed to clock a full day's worth of hours.

Management in my department is a little interesting as well - we have a "senior" whomis in charge of day-to-day stuff, and then a Supervisor who is clearly the authority figure.

Saturday, we worked an overtime shift. It rained, and our senior called inclement weather and had us sign out when we left. It was clearly defined that we would be getting out full day's pay. Today, our Supervisor (who was at home relaxing on Sunday) told us to modify our time cards to account for those of us who left early.

Now, I like my senior a lot - he's a great guy who always has our backs and tries to help out. Our supervisor is a bit of a dick. He's only doing his job, but he's not very tactful or considerate in how he does it. No one likes the guy (while similarly all my co-workers like the senior).

I left two hours early on Saturday, on the assumption I was being paid for those two hours. Had I known I was not, there was plenty of work I could have done during the time period. As someone who is on a bit of a tight budget (thank you, World Series tickets), I had accounted for the over $100 that I am now no longer being paid. I don't want to get my senior in trouble for telling us we'd get paid for those two hours, but I'm pissed that I'm not getting them.

As a side note, I hate that this job has made me buy in to the mentality where I'm now pissed that I'm not being paid for hours I didn't even work.

[Vince, Pt. II]

I guess this is more of a rant than a dilemma. If I go in there complaining, what do I tell my boss? "Well, I could have worked on other stuff, but instead I wanted to get paid for doing nothing."

I guess the dilemma is more "am I right to be upset."

[spleen1015]

I would let it go. Really, you didn't work so you shouldn't get paid. You wanna get paid? Do the work. Just my 2 cents.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

suck it up. tell your senior about it and see if you can make the hours up somehow.

i have a strict 'no throwing anyone under the bus' policy particularly if the person is cool.

[Vince, Pt. II]

That's where I would normally stand on the issue. But if I'm told by my employer "if you do X, you will get Y" then I expect to get Y.

This job is so frustrating, because it actively encourages sloth and laziness. I worked hard on Saturday, so I get to clock fewer hours. Someone who wasted time, didn't work as efficiently as they could takes longer and gets to clock more hours. Blargh.

[Vince, Pt. II]

The only reason I make this post is because it affects me financially. If it were an issue of wounded pride or something, this post doesn't exist and I do just "suck it up."

That being said, I will probably end up just dealing with it. While I'm on a tight budget, I don't run it so fine that $100 is going to break me over a two week period.

[Mustang]

Not sure if I understand correctly, but does the senior have the authority to call inclement weather and authorize pay? If the senior said that you would be paid, but he doesn't have the authority to authorize the pay and that comes from the supervisor, not alot you can do about it. If that is the case, next time the senior calls inclement weather you should ask if it is authorized.

I wouldn't go to the supervisor with this information, I'd talk to the senior guy and it should be on him to talk to the supervisor to clear this up.

As for when you are paid and for how much, that is on the company. If they want to pay you 8 hours for 5 minutes of work, that is their right.

[JediKooter]

Are you union? If so, I'd file a grievance. If not, I'm sure there's possibly a violation of a labor law? Either way, not cool what they did, given that they've already established a practice of paying the employees when declaring an inclement weather day.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Mustang

Not sure if I understand correctly, but does the senior have the authority to call inclement weather and authorize pay? If the senior said that you would be paid, but he doesn't have the authority to authorize the pay and that comes from the supervisor, not alot you can do about it. If that is the case, next time the senior calls inclement weather you should ask if it is authorized.

I wouldn't go to the supervisor with this information, I'd talk to the senior guy and it should be on him to talk to the supervisor to clear this up.

As for when you are paid and for how much, that is on the company. If they want to pay you 8 hours for 5 minutes of work, that is their right.

Yeah, what the 'Stang said.

[Autumn]

I would say talk to your senior about it, rather than your supervisor. You can at least vent your frustration that you were expecting to be paid and then got the rug pulled from under you. I think you're right to be annoyed by that, but it makes sense you don't want to get him in trouble. Rather than complain to the supervisor, try talking to the senior. Maybe something will come from it. If not, at least you got it off your chest without getting him in trouble.

[chadritt]

I once actually had to use the line "Look.....I know I'm getting screwed here and you know I'm getting screwed here. Im not going to make a big deal out of it or anything but we both know I cant forget that it happened." That wound up being surprisingly effective and I got taken care of.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Echo 'stang's advice, at least as a starting point.

[Cap Ologist]

Probably better to be out a $100 than out of a job, especially in this economy.

[Bad-example]

One time my brother walking into a supervisor's office and asked why a crew hadn't been dispatched to fix a power outage. The supervisor told him that it would require overtime, and that the affected households would be fine without power for 6 hours when the next shift started.

My brother said fine, turned around and opened the wall switch and cut the wires, plunging the supervisor's office into complete darkness. When asked what the hell he was doing, my brother replied, "I'll be back to turn your lights on in 6 hours".

The supervisor approved the overtime.

[lordscarlet]

Originally Posted by Bad-example

One time my brother walking into a supervisor's office and asked why a crew hadn't been dispatched to fix a power outage. The supervisor told him that it would require overtime, and that the affected households would be fine without power for 6 hours when the next shift started.

My brother said fine, turned around and opened the wall switch and cut the wires, plunging the supervisor's office into complete darkness. When asked what the hell he was doing, my brother replied, "I'll be back to turn your lights on in 6 hours".

The supervisor approved the overtime.

Sounds like your brother got damned lucky. A great story, but not the smartest idea.

[Bad-example]

Sounds like your brother got damned lucky. A great story, but not the smartest idea.

Nah. The supervisor was completely in the wrong there and my brother just snipped a wire (and repaired it right away). It was just a great way to make his point without having to go over the guy's head.

[Vince, Pt. II]

The supervisor was not on site, so as far as I am aware the senior is the one who HAS to make the inclement call. We've had issues with the inclement weather policy in the past, because it is very vague. I've pushed hard to make a solid stance on the issue, but they like to leave it as an "our discretion" kind of call. It can be very frustrating to be absolutely poured on during the day, expect an inclement weather call, and then not get it. Especially when I live 45 minutes away and can't just jet home to get a change of clothes, like most of my co-workers can.

As for having a job...that makes this difficult as well. Everyone in my office is being laid off some time in the next four months to a year. We know it is coming, but we have absolutely no idea when. When the actual day comes, it's basically going to be "Hey, happy Friday. Don't bother coming in on Monday, you're done." There are about 20 of us in the office, and the firing will be done in waves at the supervisor's discretion. In other words, he'll receive word that he needs to let X number of us go, and he picks which of us goes and stays. I get the feeling that so far I'm in his good graces, but I really have no idea, and I'm one of the newer ones in the office with under 3 years of experience.

And B-E - I can't believe your brother got away with that. Even if it was an easy fix, showing up your boss like that is never a good idea, even if you don't agree with him.

[CU Tiger]

1- why did your brother just happen to have a screw driver and wire cutters in his hand
2- he was damn lucky to not get shocked
3- Just fixing the wire wouldn't have restored the lights, someone would have had to reset a breaker
4- At best that would have been a 3-4 minute exercise doubtful the guy sat there and watched

I guess what I am saying is, Shenanigans I call....

[Bad-example]

CU Tiger:

1- He is a professional electrician.
2- Not really. He knows his stuff.
3- I don't know about the breaker. I'm not a professional electrician.
4- I can't confirm how long it took but the guy didn't physically restrain him.

Believe it or don't. It happened as stated and I thought it was funny as shit. He could have called the guy's boss to get him to do his job right but found another way.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

The supervisor was not on site, so as far as I am aware the senior is the one who HAS to make the inclement call. We've had issues with the inclement weather policy in the past, because it is very vague. I've pushed hard to make a solid stance on the issue, but they like to leave it as an "our discretion" kind of call. It can be very frustrating to be absolutely poured on during the day, expect an inclement weather call, and then not get it. Especially when I live 45 minutes away and can't just jet home to get a change of clothes, like most of my co-workers can.

As for having a job...that makes this difficult as well. Everyone in my office is being laid off some time in the next four months to a year. We know it is coming, but we have absolutely no idea when. When the actual day comes, it's basically going to be "Hey, happy Friday. Don't bother coming in on Monday, you're done." There are about 20 of us in the office, and the firing will be done in waves at the supervisor's discretion. In other words, he'll receive word that he needs to let X number of us go, and he picks which of us goes and stays. I get the feeling that so far I'm in his good graces, but I really have no idea, and I'm one of the newer ones in the office with under 3 years of experience.

And B-E - I can't believe your brother got away with that. Even if it was an easy fix, showing up your boss like that is never a good idea, even if you don't agree with him.

Ugh - that sucks about the job.

[Philliesfan980]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

1- why did your brother just happen to have a screw driver and wire cutters in his hand
2- he was damn lucky to not get shocked
3- Just fixing the wire wouldn't have restored the lights, someone would have had to reset a breaker
4- At best that would have been a 3-4 minute exercise doubtful the guy sat there and watched

I guess what I am saying is, Shenanigans I call....

Sounds like a typical surly blue collar guy if you ask me.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

1- why did your brother just happen to have a screw driver and wire cutters in his hand
2- he was damn lucky to not get shocked
3- Just fixing the wire wouldn't have restored the lights, someone would have had to reset a breaker
4- At best that would have been a 3-4 minute exercise doubtful the guy sat there and watched

I guess what I am saying is, Shenanigans I call....

1: He's an electrician, if he doesn't have his tools he's a failure.
2: He'll only get shocked if he's using uninsulated tools, anything with a rubber coated handle would be perfectly safe.
3: cutting a wire will not trip a breaker. You have to actually overload the breaker's limits (IE pull too much power) to make that happen.
4: not sure what this one has to do with anything.

5: You don't know much about electricity to be tossing out such comments.

[Autumn]

Maybe the story has grown in the retelling, and he actually just turned off the light switch. Seems a simpler way to make your point.

;-)

[SportsDino]

I'd suck it up, tell your senior that it was really annoying, and indicate in the future you want to know whether the policy is for real or not.

If he is a cool guy he is going to do his best to look out for you and if he doesn't have the drive to get you extra hours to make up the difference, at the very least he'll probably fight much harder next time for an inclement weather day. Course its possible he won't call one at all because the situation makes him gunshy.

With a job on the line that is going to leave soon anyway, keep your resume ready, suck it up in the short term, and if you find a good deal bail on them before they bail on you. Rock the boat you'll end up doing all the same searching but having to ride unemployment in the mean time.

[Glengoyne]

Relavant pointsto Me

1)My company has an inclement weather policy - once they determine the weather is poor enough

2) It rained, and our senior called inclement weather and had us sign out when we left.

It sounds to me like you the company should be on the hook for what they have put in their policy.

If the guy who called inclement weather, does have the authority to send you home, then the company should be on the hook for the hours, in my book. The company shouldn't make a mistake and penalize the employee.

Now if he doesn't have the authority to send you home, then you may be hanging in the wind a bit. If he does have the authority to send you home, but doesn't have the authority to declare "inclement weather". HE should be the guy with the problem, and the company should honor his defacto management decision.

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

If the guy who called inclement weather, does have the authority to send you home, then the company should be on the hook for the hours, in my book. The company shouldn't make a mistake and penalize the employee.

Now if he doesn't have the authority to send you home, then you may be hanging in the wind a bit. If he does have the authority to send you home, but doesn't have the authority to declare "inclement weather". HE should be the guy with the problem, and the company should honor his defacto management decision.

Is it worth ruining your working relationship with him, get him in trouble and quite possibly ID yourself as a guy that isn't a team player and is one of the first out of the door when the layoffs come though?

I don't think anyone disputes that this should be the companies/seniors responsibility, but it just doesn't seem worth doing any of the above over a hundred bucks. I pretty much agree 100% with SD - suck it up for now and start looking, because this doesn't sound like a great situation to be in.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by RendeR

1: He's an electrician, if he doesn't have his tools he's a failure.
2: He'll only get shocked if he's using uninsulated tools, anything with a rubber coated handle would be perfectly safe.
3: cutting a wire will not trip a breaker. You have to actually overload the breaker's limits (IE pull too much power) to make that happen.
4: not sure what this one has to do with anything.

5: You don't know much about electricity to be tossing out such comments.

1) So every electrician carries his tools around in the office? got it.
2) Not anything with a rubber handle is safe, anything with an electrically insulated handle is potentially though, so long as the current isn't great enough to jump through the insulation barrier. Every insulated tool carries and voltage and ampacity insulation value, you common wal mart pliers have none. You may get lucky you may not.
3) True enough merely cutting a wire will not trip a breaker, however since it is a light switch in a commercial environment the conductor shall be solid copper of sufficient gauge to carry the circuit rated ampacity encased inside a metal junction box listed for such purpose... Given that is is solid copper when you cut it it will recoil, the insulation doesn't extend past the cut end and that end will 99/100 make contact with either the uninsulated grounded conductor or the side of the metal box causing a short to groud which would quickly exceed the time temperature curve of the thermal magnetic breaker and cause a trip.
4) It leads to the dis credibility of the story if the supervisor wouldn't sit there and watch this unfold then the story is less likely to be real.

5) Really...Well I have a degree in electrical engineering, carry an electrical contractors unlimiteed license, and a medium voltage endorsement and own an electrical contracting company that employs 47 "electricians" today (all of which would be fired if they entered my building/office area with their tools, it is an image issue pet peeve of mine, sorry). I actually thought my occupation was kinda common knowledge here as it has came up a few times as I have helped others fix problems. But you are right I am in no way qualified to make such statements, what are your qualifications again?

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

1) So every electrician carries his tools around in the office? got it.
2) Not anything with a rubber handle is safe, anything with an electrically insulated handle is potentially though, so long as the current isn't great enough to jump through the insulation barrier. Every insulated tool carries and voltage and ampacity insulation value, you common wal mart pliers have none. You may get lucky you may not.
3) True enough merely cutting a wire will not trip a breaker, however since it is a light switch in a commercial environment the conductor shall be solid copper of sufficient gauge to carry the circuit rated ampacity encased inside a metal junction box listed for such purpose... Given that is is solid copper when you cut it it will recoil, the insulation doesn't extend past the cut end and that end will 99/100 make contact with either the uninsulated grounded conductor or the side of the metal box causing a short to groud which would quickly exceed the time temperature curve of the thermal magnetic breaker and cause a trip.
4) It leads to the dis credibility of the story if the supervisor wouldn't sit there and watch this unfold then the story is less likely to be real.

5) Really...Well I have a degree in electrical engineering, carry an electrical contractors unlimited license, and a medium voltage endorsement and own an electrical contracting company that employs 47 "electricians" today (all of which would be fired if they entered my building/office area with their tools, it is an image issue pet peeve of mine, sorry). I actually thought my occupation was kinda common knowledge here as it has came up a few times as I have helped others fix problems. But you are right I am in no way qualified to make such statements, what are your qualifications again?

I'm a nuclear engineer, with specialities in Electronic controllers, electrical generators and several other mechanical power generating equipment groups ranging anywhere from Industrial grade AC units to oil, water and coolant pumps, evaporators and 75,000 HP ships engines.

You list off some great qualifications, and for all that you're practical knowledge of simple electrical equipment and reactions to cutting a wire leave a lot to be desired.

Any blue collar electrician whose actually AT the office and about to go do his job will normally have his tools on him. Yes. Its like a lawyer putting on his favorite suit for court. Its just something most do. Carpenters are the same way. A Tool belt is something I and most I've ever known simply feel naked without.

The wire in a light switch isn't going to recoil, at all. its not that taught. if it is it wasn't installed properly. The coating may indeed pull back from the cut, perhaps a millimeter at most and in doing so at worst is going to allow the cut ends of the wire to contact one another again. (yes that means the lights will stay ON!)

Any handtool with a rubber grip has enough resistance to protect the user from a simple snipping of a wire. Office lighting doesn't use anything more than 110v AC just like a typical home.

As for the super just sitting there and letting him do it, he probably couldn't see what he was actually doing. Unless, he can see through the guys body or something.


The point being to all of this. You made some really unrealistic comments to try and sound overly intelligent about the situation and make a smart ass remark about the poster. Nothing you actually said really related to a simple office light switch or a man standing in a room cutting a wire.

Maybe next time you just shoulda said "I call bullshit" instead of trying to be a smart ass and making yourself open to correction.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by RendeR

I'm a nuclear engineer, with specialities in Electronic controllers, electrical generators and several other mechanical power generating equipment groups ranging anywhere from Industrial grade AC units to oil, water and coolant pumps, evaporators and 75,000 HP ships engines.

Ok so you are a navy electrician I assume? Either way, I can list off many of the same. I have installed hundreds of electrical generators, (in the process of installing a 8MW 4 gen paralleling system currently, done plenty of pumps, motors, VFDs, HVAC controls, lighting, sound Audio Video, PLCs,etc.

Never worked on a 75,000hp ship engine. That is what leads me to believe Navy as I assume that is nuclear technology?

Originally Posted by RendeR

You list off some great qualifications, and for all that you're practical knowledge of simple electrical equipment and reactions to cutting a wire leave a lot to be desired.

Sorry my 22 years of in the field experience disagrees.

Originally Posted by RendeR

Any blue collar electrician whose actually AT the office and about to go do his job will normally have his tools on him. Yes. Its like a lawyer putting on his favorite suit for court. Its just something most do. Carpenters are the same way. A Tool belt is something I and most I've ever known simply feel naked without.

Sure they do, and they are looked down on by most white collar folks for this reason. There is a reason I charge BY FAR the highest rates in town and have a 4 week service backlog. Its called professionalism. If you are not actively working on something you shouldn't be carrying a tool bag. I spent over $40,000 on market research a decade ago and this was a 97% marker. Sure most good ole boys prefer it, but your customers do not.

Originally Posted by RendeR

The wire in a light switch isn't going to recoil, at all. its not that taught. if it is it wasn't installed properly. The coating may indeed pull back from the cut, perhaps a millimeter at most and in doing so at worst is going to allow the cut ends of the wire to contact one another again. (yes that means the lights will stay ON!)

Sorry I disagree COMPLETELY. I never said it was taught, only that it was a solid line that should have 2 180 degree bends inside the box. As a standard I and most every other electrician I have worked with will pull approx 4-6" outside of the front opening of the box and then route it in a zig zag bottom to top and down to switch. This does leave a bit of a recoil in the metal.

Originally Posted by RendeR

Any handtool with a rubber grip has enough resistance to protect the user from a simple snipping of a wire. Office lighting doesn't use anything more than 110v AC just like a typical home.

You are patently wrong here. I am in the process of building 2 multi-story office buildings currently, both use 277VAC lighting. Besides cheap rubber insulation gets nicks easily and loses its insulation value. The fact that you think ALL OFFICE LIGHTING is 120, tells me you need to get off the nuclear boat.

Originally Posted by RendeR

As for the super just sitting there and letting him do it, he probably couldn't see what he was actually doing. Unless, he can see through the guys body or something.

Remember this is in an office. So in your version the guy walks in and says why cant we keep working, then he turns around inside the guys office and starts dis assembling the light switch and the guy just sits there. Remember cover plate(with 2 screws), then switch mounting screws then pulls the switch out and then cuts the wires mean while the super never says WTF?

Dont think so.

Originally Posted by RendeR

The point being to all of this. You made some really unrealistic comments to try and sound overly intelligent about the situation and make a smart ass remark about the poster. Nothing you actually said really related to a simple office light switch or a man standing in a room cutting a wire.

Maybe next time you just shoulda said "I call bullshit" instead of trying to be a smart ass and making yourself open to correction.

No the point being is unlike you among others here I will not make a unfounded statement against someone without backing it up. I would feel it very insulting to simply say, "you are lieing" instead I have my opinion of flaws in his story and said that I did not believe it. The fact that you seem to have an issue with it is not my concern.

[Bad-example]

Can't we all just get along?

Look. It happened pretty much exactly as I described. I don't really care who believes it or not. The story is true and, I thought, quite amusing. I sure didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition...

[Poli]

I've known people to do things similar to BE's example. Seems like that story would be slightly embellished. I'd give the story some merit. It is likely he went in to complain and that the OT was approved. Whether he cut the wire, whether he tripped a breaker, whether he cut the wire in front of him...that's all open to discussion.

In the situations I've witnessed the "revenge" wasn't carried out in front of the offender.

[Bad-example]

Whether he cut the wire, whether he tripped a breaker, whether he cut the wire in front of him...that's all open to discussion.

LOL...discuss away if you think it's going to get y'all somewhere.

[Poli]

BE, I'm just saying that the story seems a little "stretchy" to me...and I'm more in the realm to believe based on past experiences.

I'll say this: Had I not seen it myself I wouldn't post as the gospel. My brother, for example, embellishes the heck out of any story. To hear him tell a story from our childhood makes me shake my head. He'll argue to no end that the way he's telling it is the cold and hard truth. It's got a truth flavor to it, but he basically tells every story of his life as if he's a super star, hero, or successfully standing up to authority.

Your brother may just well be a saint outside of cutting a wire to obtain some OT. He may well be as bad as my brother...who if given the chance to tell a story like that would likely tell it the same way. Either way, you have to understand that some of us out here are going to be skeptical based on our own experiences.

[Bad-example]

Your brother may just well be a saint outside of cutting a wire to obtain some OT.

Well it wasn't about my brother liberating some overtime from the company. It was about a corporate suit deciding that a few thousand people would be fine without power for ~6 hours. My brother takes his job seriously and this ass clown wasn't doing his right. My bro could have made some calls to light a fire under the guy's ass but went another way. After the snipping incident the management guy told my brother that he had made his point and called in a crew to get that neighborhood back on the grid. I'm convinced he didn't embellish the story, nor have I.

[lynchjm24]

Let me get this right:

A: You have a job where they at times pay you for hours that you don't have to work.
B: One time they screwed you out of $100.

You are willing to risk A over B?

As the saying goes, discretion is the better part of valor.

[lynchjm24]

What I don't get about the story is why someone would change their decision based on what he did.

Showing up management in front of your peers is probably the least likely way in the world to change their mind.

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by Bad-example

Can't we all just get along?

ENGINEER FIGHT!!!!