Serious advice needed

Axxon · 07-09-2003, 04:40 PM

This is unreal and I wonder where everybody stands on the issue.

1. Water pump goes out on the car. I get it towed to the shop.

2. They quote me a price for all the work. Basically, water pump, thermostat, hoses, etc. etc.

3. I go to pick up said car round about their closing time. They leave and when I try to start the car it won't start.

4. Today they pick up the key and check the car out. The guy says that the head gasket is shot and it's leaking fluid and what happened was the plugs got wet. He tells me that I'll need to get this fixed but the car is drivable and shouldn't be a problem.

5. He agrees to drop the car off at my house. Now, this evening I go out and it still won't start. I call the shop and the mechanic answers and he basically says, ,of course it won't start, I told the other guy it wouldn't. I say, why the hell didn't he tell me this before and why in the hell would I want a broken car back? They can't answer this.

6. Now, my position is that they should do the labor for free. They should have checked the car before giving it back to me and definately not tried to give me a broken car back. They only want to knock off the towing which in my mind is crap because the car should never have needed the towing in the first place.

7. I'm thinking about disputing the charge and I did tell them I was going to just to see what they'd say. They are going to get the owner to call me. They've not really been assholes about it but incredibly inept. I don't know if I can legally dispute the charges though as they did do work even though they didn't fix it.

What do you guys think?

Fritz · 07-09-2003, 04:41 PM

I think "good luck" and feel sorry for you.

Axxon · 07-09-2003, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fritz
I think "good luck" and feel sorry for you.

Very helpful Fritz but I do appreciate the sentiment.

Fritz · 07-09-2003, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Axxon
Very helpful Fritz but I do appreciate the sentiment.

Sorry, I have such bad memories from auto failures and dealing with mechanics. Now when there are problems I just replace the car, but that is not exactly advice most people can act on. I do feel for you.

Axxon · 07-09-2003, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fritz
Sorry, I have such bad memories from auto failures and dealing with mechanics. Now when there are problems I just replace the car, but that is not exactly advice most people can act on. I do feel for you.

Which I contemplated doing and had I known the head gasket was messed up I most likely would have but I've pretty much replaced all the important stuff in the last year or so and it seemed stupid to bail at this point.

Franklinnoble · 07-09-2003, 04:58 PM

I don't know much about engines, but I don't buy their explaination about why your head gasket blew. Your plugs got wet? How does that make sense?

I'd be pissed... but it sounds like you are well and truly f*cked.

You can't really do much unless the shop is part of a franchise or dealership, and maybe then you can appeal to a higher corporate power for relief.

Axxon · 07-09-2003, 05:00 PM

No, the gasket was leaking water which gets into the plugs and soaks them therefore the car won't start after it's been running. I'm perfectly free to pull the plugs and dry them off after every trip and the car would be fine.

Buzzbee · 07-09-2003, 05:10 PM

I'm also not that familiar with engines, but is it possible that in doing the repair on the water pump that they could have damaged the head gasket, or re-positioned it improperly? The head gasket obviously wasn't shot before they did the work, unless the old water pump wasn't generating enough pressure to cause the gasket to leak, if it would even do that. See, I'm showing my engine ignorance.

Scenario 1: They screwed up and damaged the gasket. They should eat the towing and the repair cost.

Scenario 2: Head gasket truly is shot, but wasn't detected until the new water pump was put on. They should eat the towing charge for not explaining the situation to you fully. You should pay to have the head gasket replaced since it really isn't thier fault it is shot.

Just my $0.02.

Axxon · 07-09-2003, 05:19 PM

I don't know enough about cars to know the answer to that Buzzbee. I'd say in scenario 2 that normally I'd totally be willing to have paid the cost had they known or found it when they were working on the car. It is definately part of the system I was complaining I had problems with and it seems shoddy workmanship not to be thorough enough with the inspection. Even the guy at the shop says that he wished they'd have checked it when they had the car on the rack and the engine pulled so they could have done it at the same time. The labor cost would have been substantially less as they're going to be essentially doing the same thing they just did. Those are the reasons that I think they should eat the labor. It's just good business. They've gotten over a grand from me this year and I was planning to let them do a brake job and an oil change next week.

Franklinnoble · 07-09-2003, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Axxon
No, the gasket was leaking water which gets into the plugs and soaks them therefore the car won't start after it's been running. I'm perfectly free to pull the plugs and dry them off after every trip and the car would be fine.

So, before you had the water pump replaced, no water was moving in your engine at all, and therefore the head gasket leak had gone previously undetected, correct?

Sounds odd to me... I've replaced the water pump twice on my truck (fortunately, my father-in-law is retired and fairly knowledgeable about engines), and I've never had anything like that happen.

I know running a dry engine in the heat can cause you to crack the block (very bad) but I didn't think a blown gasket was too common.

Either way, the gasket is cheap, it's the labor that's expensive.

Axxon · 07-09-2003, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Franklinnoble
So, before you had the water pump replaced, no water was moving in your engine at all, and therefore the head gasket leak had gone previously undetected, correct?

Sounds odd to me... I've replaced the water pump twice on my truck (fortunately, my father-in-law is retired and fairly knowledgeable about engines), and I've never had anything like that happen.

I know running a dry engine in the heat can cause you to crack the block (very bad) but I didn't think a blown gasket was too common.

Either way, the gasket is cheap, it's the labor that's expensive.

What I feel happened ( and I felt this before the mech suggested it ) is that when the car overheated in the first place( which is why I brought it in ) it blew the gasket at that time so no, there wouldn't have been a problem with it before he replaced the water pump.

It may help to explain that changing the water pump in a geo requires pulling the engine. It is definately NOT a do at home operation. When it was pulled it would have been negligable labor to fix the gasket at that point. That's why I'm pissed. Well, that and the whole bring it to my house broke thing.

Franklinnoble · 07-09-2003, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Axxon
What I feel happened ( and I felt this before the mech suggested it ) is that when the car overheated in the first place( which is why I brought it in ) it blew the gasket at that time so no, there wouldn't have been a problem with it before he replaced the water pump.

It may help to explain that changing the water pump in a geo requires pulling the engine. It is definately NOT a do at home operation. When it was pulled it would have been negligable labor to fix the gasket at that point. That's why I'm pissed. Well, that and the whole bring it to my house broke thing.

Yep, you're right... they should make it right and fix the gasket free of charge.

Samdari · 07-09-2003, 05:35 PM

Axxon,

Sorry but you are probably out of luck. A head gasket is a MAJOR repair, a water pump is a minor one. Unless they broke the head gasket repairing your water pump (which as I understand is impossible) you have no right to expect them to repair the head gasket for free. They fixed what they thought was wrong (and it may or may not have been, I have no idea obviously). It seems they performed the repair you asked for (on their advice I am sure) in a competent fashion, but that there is more wrong with the car than that. Why should they fix something for free if they did not cause the damage? I know it sucks that the repair is going to cost more than they originally said, but is that really their fault?

Airhog · 07-09-2003, 05:39 PM

I have to agree with Samdari.

Head gaskets are not a major problem. Labor will be the biggest cost associated with this. I wouldnt scrap the car over a blown head gasket.

Buzzbee · 07-09-2003, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Samdari
Axxon,

Sorry but you are probably out of luck. A head gasket is a MAJOR repair, a water pump is a minor one. Unless they broke the head gasket repairing your water pump (which as I understand is impossible) you have no right to expect them to repair the head gasket for free. They fixed what they thought was wrong (and it may or may not have been, I have no idea obviously). It seems they performed the repair you asked for (on their advice I am sure) in a competent fashion, but that there is more wrong with the car than that. Why should they fix something for free if they did not cause the damage? I know it sucks that the repair is going to cost more than they originally said, but is that really their fault?

I get the feeling that Axxon feels they should have replaced the head gasket as part of the process of replacing the water pump. Although I don't know if that is something they would normally check. It sounds like an unfortunate situation. Perhaps they might be willing to split the cost of the repair since it is something that could have been done as part of the original repair, but isn't something that would necessarily be caught until after the water pump is replaced and the engine put back in.

Who knows? I'm sorry you are having to deal with this. If I were in this situation, I would call Clark Howard and ask what is reasonable for me to expect the shop to do.

If you've never heard of Clark Howard, he is a Consumer Advocate with a nationally syndicated radio show.

Here is a link to his website. Perhaps you might find something there.
Clark Howard's website

DolphinFan1 · 07-09-2003, 05:49 PM

Just wanted to tell you that I feel for you man.

I brought my car in Monday to have the Air Conditioner recharged. When I went to pick it up it wouldn't start. They said the timing belt broke. Sounded fishy to me but what could I do. I had it repaired and $340 and 2 days later I have my car back.

Axxon · 07-09-2003, 05:51 PM

As I understand it, whenever a car overheats there is a risk of blowing the head gasket. Since the water pump repair required pulling the engine, again in a geo it is not a minor repair, you HAVE to pull the engine, they are going to be charging me labor for labor they basically already did once. I can't imagine why they wouldn't have checked the head gasket since it can blow when a car overheats, especially since they had already pulled the engine UNLESS they wanted to charge me the labor cost an additional time. Thats what concerns me.

Them driving it to my house basically still broken is also bad form IMHO. I don't know what they're going to do as I didn't get a call back tonight so tomorrow will tell.

Samdari · 07-10-2003, 07:31 AM

Wow, I called the water pump replacement a minor repair because it is one of the three things I knew how do with cars. If I can fix it in a car, I assure you, its a minor problem. Sounds like I could not do so in a GEO. This was a long time ago, when there was room around the engine to do work.

You may be right in that it would have been cheaper for you to fix both while the engine was out once. But, as long as they fixed what they did competently, you probably have no recourse. Unless you can prove they knowingly did not fix the head gasket so that they could charge you for taking the engine out twice, they can claim they made the repair they charged you for.

I would suggest that your best bet is to exercise your rights as a consumer and have the next and any other repairs done by a different establishment. And tell all your friends about what happened there.

Axxon · 07-10-2003, 07:58 AM

Well, the owner really was cool about it. He explained that even though they did pull the engine for the water pump, the head gasket work wouldn't have necessarily been cheaper and offered to show me if I came in why that was the case.

He did understand why I was pissed and agreed that it was handled wrong so he's cutting the labor in half and working to expedite the job so I won't be out of a car long. He said to deal with him directly and not the shop manager and we'd get it taken care of. I'll see how it works out.

clintl · 07-10-2003, 09:51 AM

It sounds like the owner is a reasonably smart business man. What he's doing sounds fair.

07-09-2003, 04:41 PM	#2
Fritz Lethargic Hooligan Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: hello kitty found my wallet at a big tent revival and returned it with all the cash missing	I think "good luck" and feel sorry for you. __________________ donkey, donkey, walk a little faster

07-09-2003, 05:00 PM	#7
Axxon Pro Starter Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Phoenix, AZ	No, the gasket was leaking water which gets into the plugs and soaks them therefore the car won't start after it's been running. I'm perfectly free to pull the plugs and dry them off after every trip and the car would be fine. __________________ There are no houris, alas, in our heaven.

07-09-2003, 05:10 PM	#8
Buzzbee College Starter Join Date: Jun 2002	I'm also not that familiar with engines, but is it possible that in doing the repair on the water pump that they could have damaged the head gasket, or re-positioned it improperly? The head gasket obviously wasn't shot before they did the work, unless the old water pump wasn't generating enough pressure to cause the gasket to leak, if it would even do that. See, I'm showing my engine ignorance. Scenario 1: They screwed up and damaged the gasket. They should eat the towing and the repair cost. Scenario 2: Head gasket truly is shot, but wasn't detected until the new water pump was put on. They should eat the towing charge for not explaining the situation to you fully. You should pay to have the head gasket replaced since it really isn't thier fault it is shot. Just my $0.02. __________________ Ability is what you're capable of doing. Motivation determines what you do. Attitude determines how well you do it. - Lou Holtz

07-09-2003, 05:19 PM	#9
Axxon Pro Starter Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Phoenix, AZ	I don't know enough about cars to know the answer to that Buzzbee. I'd say in scenario 2 that normally I'd totally be willing to have paid the cost had they known or found it when they were working on the car. It is definately part of the system I was complaining I had problems with and it seems shoddy workmanship not to be thorough enough with the inspection. Even the guy at the shop says that he wished they'd have checked it when they had the car on the rack and the engine pulled so they could have done it at the same time. The labor cost would have been substantially less as they're going to be essentially doing the same thing they just did. Those are the reasons that I think they should eat the labor. It's just good business. They've gotten over a grand from me this year and I was planning to let them do a brake job and an oil change next week. __________________ There are no houris, alas, in our heaven.

07-09-2003, 05:35 PM	#13
Samdari Roster Filler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Cicero	Axxon, Sorry but you are probably out of luck. A head gasket is a MAJOR repair, a water pump is a minor one. Unless they broke the head gasket repairing your water pump (which as I understand is impossible) you have no right to expect them to repair the head gasket for free. They fixed what they thought was wrong (and it may or may not have been, I have no idea obviously). It seems they performed the repair you asked for (on their advice I am sure) in a competent fashion, but that there is more wrong with the car than that. Why should they fix something for free if they did not cause the damage? I know it sucks that the repair is going to cost more than they originally said, but is that really their fault? __________________ http://www.nateandellie.net Now featuring twice the babies for the same low price! Last edited by Samdari : 07-09-2003 at 05:36 PM.

07-09-2003, 04:58 PM	#6
Franklinnoble Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Placerville, CA	I don't know much about engines, but I don't buy their explaination about why your head gasket blew. Your plugs got wet? How does that make sense? I'd be pissed... but it sounds like you are well and truly f*cked. You can't really do much unless the shop is part of a franchise or dealership, and maybe then you can appeal to a higher corporate power for relief.

07-09-2003, 05:39 PM	#14
Airhog Captain Obvious Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Norman, Oklahoma	I have to agree with Samdari. Head gaskets are not a major problem. Labor will be the biggest cost associated with this. I wouldnt scrap the car over a blown head gasket. __________________ Thread Killer extraordinaire Yay! its football season once again!

07-09-2003, 05:49 PM	#16
DolphinFan1 College Benchwarmer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Connecticut	Just wanted to tell you that I feel for you man. I brought my car in Monday to have the Air Conditioner recharged. When I went to pick it up it wouldn't start. They said the timing belt broke. Sounded fishy to me but what could I do. I had it repaired and $340 and 2 days later I have my car back. __________________ GM of the Milwaukee Muscle Men of the ZFL. The 1st team in ZFL history to have a perfect losing season. I am on a quest to show that the Dolphins can win the Super Bowl. Or should I say Front Office Bowl, with FOF2K7. The revival of an old favorite, FOFC Wrestling Dynasty

07-09-2003, 05:51 PM	#17
Axxon Pro Starter Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Phoenix, AZ	As I understand it, whenever a car overheats there is a risk of blowing the head gasket. Since the water pump repair required pulling the engine, again in a geo it is not a minor repair, you HAVE to pull the engine, they are going to be charging me labor for labor they basically already did once. I can't imagine why they wouldn't have checked the head gasket since it can blow when a car overheats, especially since they had already pulled the engine UNLESS they wanted to charge me the labor cost an additional time. Thats what concerns me. Them driving it to my house basically still broken is also bad form IMHO. I don't know what they're going to do as I didn't get a call back tonight so tomorrow will tell. __________________ There are no houris, alas, in our heaven.

07-10-2003, 07:31 AM	#18
Samdari Roster Filler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Cicero	Wow, I called the water pump replacement a minor repair because it is one of the three things I knew how do with cars. If I can fix it in a car, I assure you, its a minor problem. Sounds like I could not do so in a GEO. This was a long time ago, when there was room around the engine to do work. You may be right in that it would have been cheaper for you to fix both while the engine was out once. But, as long as they fixed what they did competently, you probably have no recourse. Unless you can prove they knowingly did not fix the head gasket so that they could charge you for taking the engine out twice, they can claim they made the repair they charged you for. I would suggest that your best bet is to exercise your rights as a consumer and have the next and any other repairs done by a different establishment. And tell all your friends about what happened there. __________________ http://www.nateandellie.net Now featuring twice the babies for the same low price!

07-10-2003, 07:58 AM	#19
Axxon Pro Starter Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Phoenix, AZ	Well, the owner really was cool about it. He explained that even though they did pull the engine for the water pump, the head gasket work wouldn't have necessarily been cheaper and offered to show me if I came in why that was the case. He did understand why I was pissed and agreed that it was handled wrong so he's cutting the labor in half and working to expedite the job so I won't be out of a car long. He said to deal with him directly and not the shop manager and we'd get it taken care of. I'll see how it works out. __________________ There are no houris, alas, in our heaven.

07-10-2003, 09:51 AM	#20
clintl College Starter Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Davis, CA	It sounds like the owner is a reasonably smart business man. What he's doing sounds fair.

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