Official 2015 College Football Week 2 thread

[JonInMiddleGA]

Oh yeah, don't look now but Kentucky is mostly having their way with South Carolina tonight ... in Columbia.

[CU Tiger]

Have to admit watching SC come back to only come up short and lose was mildly entertaining.

Plus it does not hurt that I made a nice money line play against SC bought down 2 wins to a 6-6 on a +1200 and this makes it even more likely...

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

After watching some of the SEC East teams today, pretty pleased with Mizzou's chances at getting another division title. It's there for the taking. Had to work hard to get the win tonight, but the defense is still there and looks very good.

I have been very surprised with what I've heard about the staff's feelings on Drew Lock. They are absolutely sure that he's gone and a 1st round pick after his junior year, hence the reason he's getting playing time this year. They really feel like he could supplant Mauk as the starting QB by later this year or next year for sure.

[cartman]

Glad to see Texas show a bit of a pulse after the horrible game at South Bend last week. As I expected before the season, they started Jerrod Heard against Rice.

[tarcone]

Go Sparty!
I wouldn't discount Georgia so quickly, Mbbf.

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

After watching some of the SEC East teams today, pretty pleased with Mizzou's chances at getting another division title. It's there for the taking. Had to work hard to get the win tonight, but the defense is still there and looks very good.

I have been very surprised with what I've heard about the staff's feelings on Drew Lock. They are absolutely sure that he's gone and a 1st round pick after his junior year, hence the reason he's getting playing time this year. They really feel like he could supplant Mauk as the starting QB by later this year or next year for sure.

This isn't a bash MBBF post, but you watched your team squeak a win against a team that a pretty young USC team beat by 50 with the backups in for over a quarter and your first thought is "we look good for the conference title"?

[cuervo72]

What time did this LSU/MSU game start again?

[MrBug708]

Arky State isn't good

Josh Rosen isn't God, yet

BYU is the trashiest team out there

[Kodos]

IU's defense gets several turnovers, including a 96-yard interception return for a TD to seal the game. Better showing than in week 1.

Happy to see Sparty beat Oregon.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

BYU is the trashiest team out there

All from one punch to the nuts to a player who dove into our guy on the ground in control of the ball, after the play was over? Mmmm okay.

Not condoning it, but if you watched the whole game BSU was talking shit all night and playing a lot more chippy than BYU did.

[MrBug708]

All from that? Talking chit? Cmon, even you must be aware that BYU has long held that distinction of being a program that plays through whistles, targets players legs, and apparently rationalizes a blow to the nuts. Chippiness is one thing. I wonder if Bronco suspends him. Probably not with another ranked team coming up

Last week
Nebraska player injures knee after highly-questionable hit by BYU player

I get it, it's the rep the program has embraced, it's what makes playing BYU so tough. Ucla is going to need to watch themselves next week. We've already lost one key player to injury

[BYU 14]

BYU has a reputation of being physical, they don't target players legs. If you watch the Nebraska film Preator was going in low and lost his balance, he was not trying to take him out and the other guy got blocked into the punter.

I don't think you could find any other incident where a BYU player could be accused of targeting a players legs, or find another time a player hit someone in the nuts. One bad act of sportsmanship doesn't define a program, it was a badly chosen retaliation to an act of bad sportsmanship from the BSU player.

BYU is not a bunch of choirboys, but they are far from the trashiest team in America. It's football, that cheap crap goes on in piles in most every game played.

[MacroGuru]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

BYU is the trashiest team out there

Sounds like someone has bought into the Utah / Utah State anti BYU bias. It's all good Bug, we are used to it.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

This isn't a bash MBBF post, but you watched your team squeak a win against a team that a pretty young USC team beat by 50 with the backups in for over a quarter and your first thought is "we look good for the conference title"?

They played at Arkansas State too?

It was the best of performances, but this is the same Mizzou team that lost a similar game to Indiana last year and still went on to win the SEC East title (I didn't say conference title). They got a win on the road against a team who was hungry to make that game their calling card for the season. I'll take a W.

[digamma]

I'll take this as an admission that the SEC East is pretty bad?

Throw in Auburn struggling with Jax State and Arkansas losing in the west and maybe the SEC speed is a little slow this year.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by MacroGuru

Sounds like someone has bought into the Utah / Utah State anti BYU bias. It's all good Bug, we are used to it.

Not at all. It's hard to ignore evidence. Especially the last three games

Another play from yesterday
https://vine.co/v/eFgPwr2tv5B

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

After watching some of the SEC East teams today, pretty pleased with Mizzou's chances at getting another division title. It's there for the taking. Had to work hard to get the win tonight, but the defense is still there and looks very good.

I have been very surprised with what I've heard about the staff's feelings on Drew Lock. They are absolutely sure that he's gone and a 1st round pick after his junior year, hence the reason he's getting playing time this year. They really feel like he could supplant Mauk as the starting QB by later this year or next year for sure.

How the heck can you be pleased with that performance? A win is a win, but our offense does not have much depth and will scratch and claw for every first down they get this season.

[MrBug708]

I find it amusing that the 3 coaches that have been crying to media about Ohio state's schedule all ate a loss yesterday. Poor Bret Bielema, if he spent half the time he does worrying about OSU's schedule and focused on Arkansas's schedule, perhaps they wouldn't have lost at home to Toledo.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by digamma

I'll take this as an admission that the SEC East is pretty bad?

Throw in Auburn struggling with Jax State and Arkansas losing in the west and maybe the SEC speed is a little slow this year.

I would say yes. Auburn is especially surprising since Johnson was supposed to be a Heisman candidate, and he looks just awful. Georgia has a really good team, but no quarterback. Only Alabama looks like themselves so far. Of course, this is early in the season. What teams look like now may not resemble what they look like in a month. But right now, the SEC looks like a one team show.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by digamma

I'll take this as an admission that the SEC East is pretty bad?

Throw in Auburn struggling with Jax State and Arkansas losing in the west and maybe the SEC speed is a little slow this year.

Nah, this is just the unconscionable difficulty of SEC schedules manifesting itself by moving backwards in time to affect non-con games. They're beating each other up before they've even played!

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Nah, this is just the unconscionable difficulty of SEC schedules manifesting itself by moving backwards in time to affect non-con games. They're beating each other up before they've even played!

Awesome

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

They played at Arkansas State too?

Sorry, you are right. I clearly wasn't accounting for the incredible home field advantage and the cauldron of noise that is *insert Arkansas State home field name here*

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by MacroGuru

Sounds like someone has bought into the Utah / Utah State anti BYU bias. It's all good Bug, we are used to it.

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Not at all. It's hard to ignore evidence. Especially the last three games

Another play from yesterday
Vine

I agree the forearm was close enough to get flagged, but you are saying he was trying to intentionally hurt him? Come on. Pretty easy to go through any game film and pick out 2-3 plays like this. Again it doesn't give a team a culture of being thugs.

And by last three I guess you mean the brawl that Memphis started in the bowl game right? So in that game with the exception of Kai Nacua, who threw a cheap shot from behind, (And was rightfully suspended last week for it, in addition to several things he had to do in the off-season) apart from that it was players protecting themselves and their own. If you tell me UCLA would not have done the same I will tell you are fooling yourself.

Memphis on the other hand had a cheap shot (to Nacua) who at that time was getting in between two players. A player swinging their helmet as a weapon and 4 guys curb stomping our center on the ground.

I am just waiting next for the Mormon missions give us an advantage line next. Sorry Bug, you're off the rails this week.

I deal with many college coaches and have talked to players how have played against BYU and they will all tell you they play hard and get after you, but will also say they are some of the nicest guys on the field between plays.

Let's also talk about the 59-0 beatdown your Bruins got in Provo a few seasons back. It could have been much worse, but Bronco, as he always does called off the dogs early. Not really a trait of a trashy team, but carry on.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

They played at Arkansas State too?

You didn't actually just say that with a straight face did you?

You get trolled undeservedly quite a bit here & I'm sympathetic to that but anything you get on this one, buddy you brought that on yourself.

After yesterday it sure appears that the SEC Least is back to form, you might actually win it ... but it won't really have much significance outside of a road trip for a beatdown by whoever comes out of the West.

[MrBug708]

The fact that you are trying to rationalize all of the instances makes me realize you already knew this. Mentioning mormon missions, old beatdowns, other non starters, is just trying to deflect from the consistent, trashy behavior that is being wrapped up under the guise of "physical" play. It's a concerning pattern.

CBS sports showed four clips of BYU players playing dirty yesterday.

1. The nut shot
2. A kick to the groin while making a hard tackle.
3. Taking out the knees of a defender 2 seconds after a whistle. Play was away from the ball. Apparently the same player did this against Nebraska.*
4. BYU tearing off a helmet of a defender. The same defender made the tackle and was called for a 15 yard penalty which led to the touch down.

One of these plays happening isn't a big deal. People get heated, it's what it happens in the game. But every week?

[BillJasper]

Will someone else please take Tommy Tuberville, please? While they're at it, they can have Gunner Kiel too.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

The fact that you are trying to rationalize all of the instances makes me realize you already knew this. Mentioning mormon missions, old beatdowns, other non starters, is just trying to deflect from the consistent, trashy behavior that is being wrapped up under the guise of "physical" play. It's a concerning pattern.

CBS sports showed four clips of BYU players playing dirty yesterday.

1. The nut shot
2. A kick to the groin while making a hard tackle.
3. Taking out the knees of a defender 2 seconds after a whistle. Play was away from the ball. Apparently the same player did this against Nebraska.*
4. BYU tearing off a helmet of a defender. The same defender made the tackle and was called for a 15 yard penalty which led to the touch down.

One of these plays happening isn't a big deal. People get heated, it's what it happens in the game. But every week?

Yes it does, by both teams.

And deflect from a what happens on a consistent basis? You are using a small sample of this game and a game last week (where both "cheap shots" were clearly not intentional) to make a case of a long standing history of this behavior. Doesn't hold water.

In fact, you really never heard anything about BYU's dirty play prior to the brawl against Memphis, which yes was an embarrassment, so really you are ignoring the larger sample by letting the media define your opinion based on a two week sample where they are now scrutinizing BYU's play. The only intentional incidents were in the Boise game and both were rightfully flagged and I am not wrapping those under the guise of physical play. They were uncalled for and are not indicative of the way BYU is coached, or consistently plays.

In fact, visit our message board and you will see many whine about the lack of an edge in seasons past, which was often very much the case.

And I will leave you with scoreboard - UCLA 7th in personal fouls/unsportsmanlike penalties in this 10 stretch through the end of 2013
http://www.buzzfeed.com/jakel11/who-...on#.bk2GdDoM8P

[JonInMiddleGA]

And somewhere out there late last night was a college coach (or designated minion) that felt that South Carolina was deserving of a vote at #25.

Methinks somebody's contract needs a "drug testing for cause" clause in it.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Nah, this is just the unconscionable difficulty of SEC schedules manifesting itself by moving backwards in time to affect non-con games. They're beating each other up before they've even played!

So Auburn doesn't lose, bottom feeder Arkansas loses to Toledo,and bottom feeder Tennessee loses to one of the top teams in the Big 12 and we choose to ignore Bama over Wisconsin, A&M over Arizona State, South Carolina over North Carolina, Florida over East Carolina etc to say the SEC is down? Just checking.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by panerd

So Auburn doesn't lose, bottom feeder Arkansas loses to Toledo,and bottom feeder Tennessee loses to one of the top teams in the Big 12 and we choose to ignore Bama over Wisconsin, A&M over Arizona State, South Carolina over North Carolina, Florida over East Carolina etc to say the SEC is down? Just checking.

The same SC that just lost to Kentucky at home?
The same Florida that was unimpressive beating an ECU that escaped Towson State by a touchdown the week before?
The same Tennessee that proves that they still aren't capable of beating anyone with a pulse?
The same etc that had highly ranked Georgia discover that they don't have a legit QB on the roster at all and had to limp through a game against Vandy?

The question isn't whether it's down, the question is just how far down is it.

Bama's demise seems to have been greatly exaggerated, A&M may not be bad, LSU might be better than advertised but the east is largely once again a division filled with pretenders and the west isn't as good as expected with Auburn clearly not right and Arkansas suffering a season-killer when they lost the RB.

[cuervo72]

Yes - those are good. Or mostly - I'm not sure that wins over NC or EC are all that particularly impressive, but at least they are 1-A schools. I don't think Alabama needs much justification for their ranking. But some of those 8-in-25 of the preseason rankings might be suspect (SC was what, 9 last year? Now we're giving them props for beating UNC.)

edit: and that "bottom-feeder" was ranked #18. Maybe don't rank a bottom-feeder 18.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

But some of those 8-in-25 of the preseason rankings might be suspect (SC was what, 9 last year? Now we're giving them props for beating UNC.)

I will say, with regard to SC, that losing their QB certainly seems to have had some impact last night. It's still an embarrassing loss but when the score first started coming in I didn't realize that injury had occurred.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by panerd

So Auburn doesn't lose, bottom feeder Arkansas loses to Toledo,and bottom feeder Tennessee loses to one of the top teams in the Big 12 and we choose to ignore Bama over Wisconsin, A&M over Arizona State, South Carolina over North Carolina, Florida over East Carolina etc to say the SEC is down? Just checking.

BAHAHAHAHAHAH
Really?
Really?
UF over ECU is now cause for S-E-C chants?
A top 10 destination job against a partial qualifier. UF is a blue blood program, One of the top jobs in the country...and you are bragging about a win over ECU.


BTW Auburn went to OT with an FCS team.

Arkansas lost to Toledo.

Call them bottom feeders if thast makes you feel better. But Auburn is Top 10 after a 4 point win over a UL team that lost to Houston and an OT win over an FCS team.

Arkansas lost to TOLEDO....let that sink in TOLEDO.

Bama...Bama is a Good Top 10 team. No argument here. But the rest of these arguments are...laughable.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I will say, with regard to SC, that losing their QB certainly seems to have had some impact last night. It's still an embarrassing loss but when the score first started coming in I didn't realize that injury had occurred.

Jon SC didnt score until Mitch went down. They charged back with the back up

[digamma]

Yeah, I mean before Arkansas loses, they're up and coming and ranked #18 in the country. Now they're a bottom feeder.

[cuervo72]

Yeah, that's a hurdle. They still gave up 24 in the first half though, which is not so good, backup QB or not. Also not good when this is one of the headlines that comes up when searching for the game:

"Cats snap SEC road losing streak dating to 2009 with 26-22 win over South Carolina"

[miked]

Rutgers captain and best player Leontee Caroo suspended indefinitely for allegedly getting involved in a fight after the game...with some females. Last second lost to WSU, players behaving badly, and shitty recruiting. Don't know what it takes to get rid of Flood.

[dubb93]

I think an argument could be made for any conference to be having a down year at this point in the season.

I was just thinking the other day that last year I would have put Wisconsin, Ohio State, and Michigan State up against any of the other conferences in the country and felt pretty good about the top of the B1G last year. This year I think Wisconsin is in for a down year and I don't think there is anyone in the conference who will step up and replace them as a top tier team this season.

TCU and Baylor have both looked vulnerable and with the early Oregon loss, the Pac 12 can't be feeling too great either.

Bottom line: It's too early to tell. Everyone calm down.

[digamma]

Of course that's true, and that's really the point. The SEC hasn't proven itself to be much better than anyone else this year (and some of us would argue last year and maybe the year before that too). Yet, they live on preseason rankings and strength of conference schedule. And speed, of course.

[cuervo72]

I mean, I'll still consider the SEC as the best conference most years (though CBS stating this as fact in their advertising is a little...I dunno, seems they should be a bit more impartial). But I will always be against an argument where they are propped up largely on the basis of beating other SEC teams. More of those wins vs Wisky and ASU, please.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

More of those wins vs Wisky and ASU, please.

Sadly, Arkansas State was only willing to play the one SEC team this year, but yeah it did really provide a great road win for that SEC team. However, Arkansas State does play the mighty Toledo in a couple weeks. Given the two team's stature and ability to challenge SEC opposition, I assume if Toledo wins that they are a near lock for a playoff spot at the end of the year.

[cuervo72]

*chortle*

I did mean Arizona State there. But yeah...Arky State. USC shouldn't be pulling that bullshit either.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by digamma

Yeah, I mean before Arkansas loses, they're up and coming and ranked #18 in the country. Now they're a bottom feeder.

You and others in this thread seem to mistake me for an SEC apologist or at least someone who gives a shit what the rest of the SEC does. I'm neither. Realistically Tennessee and Arkansas have been shit in the SEC for as long as Mizzou has been in the conference. Why were they ranked? That is definitely SEC media bias but claiming that those losses somehow mean that Alabama, LSU, Georgia and shit I will even throw in Mizzou aren't good is wishful thinking that ignores the facts. (The facts being they routinely clean up non conference opponents hence why they are considered the best teams in the country and you can say Toledo beating up a team with 4 conference wins in three years or OU winning in double overtime to the 12th/13th best SEC school the past three years means things have changed but again that is clearly ignoring the facts)

[panerd]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

BAHAHAHAHAHAH
Really?
Really?
UF over ECU is now cause for S-E-C chants?
A top 10 destination job against a partial qualifier. UF is a blue blood program, One of the top jobs in the country...and you are bragging about a win over ECU.


BTW Auburn went to OT with an FCS team.

Arkansas lost to Toledo.

Call them bottom feeders if thast makes you feel better. But Auburn is Top 10 after a 4 point win over a UL team that lost to Houston and an OT win over an FCS team.

Arkansas lost to TOLEDO....let that sink in TOLEDO.

Bama...Bama is a Good Top 10 team. No argument here. But the rest of these arguments are...laughable.

Again I am not an SEC homer just a Mizzou fan. They are all wins is my point. So ignoring all those wins and focusing on Arkansas and Tennessee would be like me refuting ACC wins and saying Clemson and Florida State suck because Wake Forest and Louisville lost

[Chief Rum]

I have no opinion to offer on relative conference strength at this point. Not enough evidence.

But I did have the misfortune of watching that abomination of a Tenn-OU game yesterday while on the treadmill. Well three quarters and OT of it. And both those teams suck. It was terrible, sloppy football.

[cuervo72]

When did we ever say Bama or LSU suck? Props to both for traditionally scheduling big conference non-cons (even if those games are typically in places like geographically-friendly Texas, and often seem to be Wisconsin).

Georgia...well, I'm pretty sure Jon will usually tell you that they do indeed suck.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Tigercat

Texas A&M and Auburn are going to learn the hard way that coaches who's success is predicated on a specific kind of offensive success will not have lasting success in a competitive conference if they can't develop the skills to develop a program identity and structure. Both fan bases got hyped by hiring big name defensive coordinators this off season, but it isn't that simple. You have to be invested in a process, and I look at both of those coaches and see all flash and no desire to instill mental toughness and discipline on both sides of the ball.

Didn't we have this same thread about Urban Meyer going to the SEC? And this same line of thought when A&M and Missouri were first entering the SEC? I'm not as sold on Sumlin, but Malzahn's track record is pretty sterling (and his offense is based on power running, not finesse), and the main takeaway from I'd have from Jeremy Johnson's performances is that you still need a good QB to win, and maybe people were overrating a kid who couldn't beat out a converted DB the last 2 seasons. I like LSU as a program, and we get another data point next week, but let's not forget that Auburn won 41-7 last season.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by dubb93

This year I think Wisconsin is in for a down year and I don't think there is anyone in the conference who will step up and replace them as a top tier team this season.

Agree. I don't think their O-Line is up to snuff this year, but I'm not sure anybody in the West can step up and challenge them.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by panerd

Again I am not an SEC homer just a Mizzou fan. They are all wins is my point. So ignoring all those wins and focusing on Arkansas and Tennessee would be like me refuting ACC wins and saying Clemson and Florida State suck because Wake Forest and Louisville lost

No, it would be like saying the ACC as a whole sucks. And I would agree.

However I'd argue that the ACC has 3 Top 15-17 teams (GT, FSU, CLEM in order from best to worst) and 1-2 more Top 25 caliber teams (Duke and BC in my opinion)

So I'd say the ACC has 4-5 of the Top 25 teams in the country. About what you would expect from each of the Power 5 Conference

However we have the stated position that the SEC has a sum total of 10 of the 25 best teams in America. And then as they inevitably lose to each other they reward one another with a Top 25 win and a loss to a Top 25 team. The lie propogates itself.

In reality I think the Top 25 breakdown, right now, should close to
SEC (5-6) Bama, LSU, Ole Miss, UGA, Mizzou (maybe aTm )
ACC (4-5 out of) GT, FSU, CLEM, Duke/BC
B1G (4-5 out of) Ohio St, Mich St, Wisconsin, Northwestern, Minnesote/Iowa
Big 12 (4-5 out of) Baylor, TCU, Oklahoma, WVU/Kan St/TT
Pac 12 (4-5 out of) USC, UCLA, Arizona, Oregon, Utah/Cal
Independent 2: Notre Dame, BYU

That would also represent a fairly even distribution of quality teams amongst the 5 conferences. That is how I think the country stacks up, not BECAUSE it is an even distribution but based on my feelings.

As you can see I even acknowledge that the SEC is the best conference as I give them more teams than any other conference.

The argument for years has been that it is the deepest conference because, for example, Miss St as the suggested 6 here would be comparable or better than the 5th place team from any other conference. I think a fair case could be made for that argument as well.

Where the whole argument has jumped the shark is when the argument changed to Not only could Miss St beat everyone else's #5 it could also beat everyone else's #2 and that the rest of world was playing with the scraps leftover.

[CU Tiger]

Dola -
I present Exhibit 1.
This is updated as of today:

2015 Football Power Index
RK TEAM W-L PROJ W-L WIN OUT% CONF WIN% REM SOS RK FPI
1 Ole Miss, SEC 2-0 10.5 - 2.0 7.4 31.8 6 27.7
2 OSU, Big Ten 2-0 12.0 - 0.8 41.7 68.4 61 27.0
3 TCU, Big 12 2-0 10.4 - 1.6 14.5 46.2 37 25.3
4 USC, Pac-12 2-0 10.4 - 2.3 5.3 50.2 3 24.4
5 Georgia, SEC 2-0 10.3 - 2.4 4.1 31.7 22 24.0
6 LSU, SEC 1-0 8.6 - 2.6 1.5 11.1 15 23.5
7 Alabama, SEC 2-0 8.8 - 3.4 0.5 6.5 7 23.2
8 Texas A&M, SEC 2-0 9.5 - 2.6 1.3 8.6 29 22.7
9 Baylor, Big 12 2-0 9.9 - 2.1 6.6 26.9 39 22.3
10 Notre Dame, FBS Indep. 2-0 9.8 - 2.2 6.2 -- 44 21.7
11 Oklahoma, Big 12 2-0 9.7 - 2.3 4.8 21.8 38 21.2
12 Tennessee, SEC 1-1 8.3 - 3.9 0.7 8.7 42 19.3
13 Oregon, Pac-12 1-1 9.0 - 3.6 2.4 22.9 52 18.8
14 Georgia Tech, ACC 2-0 8.7 - 3.8 0.5 28.1 1 18.7
15 Michigan State, Big Ten 2-0 10.2 - 2.0 4.2 12.2 64 18.3
16 FSU, ACC 2-0 9.8 - 2.7 2.5 30.4 47 18.1
17 UCLA, Pac-12 2-0 9.4 - 2.8 1.3 13.0 31 18.0
18 Clemson, ACC 2-0 8.9 - 3.5 0.9 20.6 17 16.0
19 Arkansas, SEC 1-1 5.9 - 6.1 0.0 0.2 2 15.3
20 West Virginia, Big 12 2-0 8.1 - 3.9 0.1 2.1 41 14.8

So how many people really believe Tennessee is better than Michigan State, Clemson, FSU, GT, UCLA, etc.
And that Arkansas is #19 in the country after losing to Toledo.